Florence Ballard's funeral rare footage [[1976)

[sup_fan]

specific details in Mary's books are definitely subject to error. many fans on here have noted that. even Randy's books appear to have errors. i'm not saying they were necessarily peddling lies but we know through the years that exact info has been subject to changing.

when mary was writing Dreamgirl, there was no promise or contract for Book #2. clearly the success of Dreamgirl prompted a publisher to want another volume. but at the time of the original, most would expect this would be the only book. Mary clearly omitted the load for the house downpayment in Dreamgirl and doesn't talk about a phone call with Diana about Flo's death [[if it happened). my point was just because Mary didn't mention it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. it's possible with the trauma and chaos of the funeral she forgot it. its also possible she purposely omitted it like the loan because she wanted to present diana in a specific light.

but mary's book is definitely not a definitive account of everything that happened

[RanRan79]

I don't know if it was the same interview but I recall an interview where Diana said something that she just wanted to shake Florence and snap her out of it. I know she got some flack for that one.

Yeah, which was stupid flack. Who couldn't understand Diana's frustration? Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that Flo could've been shaken or slapped out of her downward spiral, but I think most people understand the sentiment. Mary said she understood. But every little thing Diana does or says has to be scrutinized, so...

[RanRan79]

specific details in Mary's books are definitely subject to error. many fans on here have noted that. even Randy's books appear to have errors. i'm not saying they were necessarily peddling lies but we know through the years that exact info has been subject to changing.

when mary was writing Dreamgirl, there was no promise or contract for Book #2. clearly the success of Dreamgirl prompted a publisher to want another volume. but at the time of the original, most would expect this would be the only book. Mary clearly omitted the load for the house downpayment in Dreamgirl and doesn't talk about a phone call with Diana about Flo's death [[if it happened). my point was just because Mary didn't mention it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. it's possible with the trauma and chaos of the funeral she forgot it. its also possible she purposely omitted it like the loan because she wanted to present diana in a specific light.

but mary's book is definitely not a definitive account of everything that happened

I'm not suggesting that Mary's books, or anyone else's, are definitive of the Supremes' story. Yes, Mary did not include the loan from Diana in her first book, but one may ask why would she since her first book focused on the Diana years of the Supremes. Mary also didn't talk about her domestic violence in her first book or a ton of other things she would eventually discuss in her second.

Do I believe it's absolutely impossible that what Mary said in the article never took place? Absolutely not. Sure, it could have, just like it could have been as Mary said it was in her book. Yes, I'm inclined to believe Mary's recollection in her book because to me it makes sense based off of what we "know" about their relationship, and the fact that it's hard for me to understand the angle she would have been using "we never talked about Flo dying" in her book if that were not true. What Mary said doesn't make Diana look bad. Mary never wrote "I reached out to Diana but she never called me back" or "I mentioned Flo dying to Diana and she screamed and yelled at me". Mary's says they never talked about it. So who would be the bad guy in that scenario? What rule would determine which woman had to start the conversation?

I believe Mary's story.

Is there a universe where Flo, in a moment of annoyance, said to Diana "F this music crap. I'm going into the antique business!"? Sure. Do I believe it? Nope.

[sup_fan]

I'm not suggesting that Mary's books, or anyone else's, are definitive of the Supremes' story. Yes, Mary did not include the loan from Diana in her first book, but one may ask why would she since her first book focused on the Diana years of the Supremes. Mary also didn't talk about her domestic violence in her first book or a ton of other things she would eventually discuss in her second.

Do I believe it's absolutely impossible that what Mary said in the article never took place? Absolutely not. Sure, it could have, just like it could have been as Mary said it was in her book. Yes, I'm inclined to believe Mary's recollection in her book because to me it makes sense based off of what we "know" about their relationship, and the fact that it's hard for me to understand the angle she would have been using "we never talked about Flo dying" in her book if that were not true. What Mary said doesn't make Diana look bad. Mary never wrote "I reached out to Diana but she never called me back" or "I mentioned Flo dying to Diana and she screamed and yelled at me". Mary's says they never talked about it. So who would be the bad guy in that scenario? What rule would determine which woman had to start the conversation?

I believe Mary's story.

Is there a universe where Flo, in a moment of annoyance, said to Diana "F this music crap. I'm going into the antique business!"? Sure. Do I believe it? Nope.

now come on ran. in the Prologue and Epilogue Mary included stuff from outside the 60s. and like i said earlier, she was able to have total recall on every single snarky thing Diana ever did [[the late night hamburger, the sleeping on the floor bullshit) and yet when diana did something hugely magnanimous specifically for Mary in her hour of need, she couldn't have acknowledged that? that's just fucked up

mary makes 1 line about how she and D would try and curb their drinking to encourage flo to slow down. otherwise she pretty much had diana doing nothing bet egging on the problem when plenty of people have said BOTH girls were actively trying to help flo until it really was too late. Diana might have tossed in the town prior to mary but still, mary couldn't remember 1 detail of all of that????? even just to make some general statements and lines. it's not that she had to give exact dates and timestamps.

but she really painted diana as a bitch and solely as a bitch. i don't discount or deny that those snarky things happened. plenty of people have absolutely said she was very difficult, had an "artistic temperament" was demanding, etc. But she did do good things and mary completely overlooked that.

[Bluebrock]

I am unsure if I have a copy of the Mary/Blues & Soul interview, but do you also remember an interview in the UK around that time, with Diana herself? If I can dig deep, I might even find it.

Am unsure if it was printed in a music paper.....or a national newspaper - which I think is more likely, and could well have been the Daily Mail.

It was titled 'The ghost that came to a press conference' [or similar words], and I believe was accompanied by separate photos of Diana and Florence. May have been at the 'Inn On The Park' - ?

Diana was being interviewed....she was asked about Florence passing away. I feel certain Diana said she answered a phone call, and heard Mary just crying, repeating "she's dead! she's dead!". Mary then told her it was Florence.

The interviewer then asked Diana did she cry...and she said "Yes, I cried.."

I remember reading it and thinking that interview could perhaps have been handled with more sensitivity. It seemed Diana might have become defensive about it, and feeling that the topic of Florence's death had overshadowed the real reason for her being there.

At one point in the same interview, I believe [if only just from memory] she was reported as saying "she's dead, and I'm not...".

And, reading that, I was left thinking "oh, Diana, you're only telling the truth, of course, but you are just not thinking how that remark might be taken..."

So, only just from memory, but it was Diana herself speaking, which was then reported in the press at that time, confirming that Mary had phoned her with the sad news. In that respect, it seems that Diana's account, and Mary's version in that interview with Blues & Soul, both from around the same time, do tally.

So I, too, thought it was odd that Mary later said she had never discussed it with Diana....but maybe she was just meaning 'in any great depth'......

I don't recall that particular interview but if you can find it i would love to see it. She didn't do an interview with Blues and Soul around that time so i expect it would have been with one of the National newspapers. Good luck with the search!

[Ollie9]

I don't know if it was the same interview but I recall an interview where Diana said something that she just wanted to shake Florence and snap her out of it. I know she got some flack for that one.

Diana probably didn’t mean it a nasty way, but her comment did reveal a complete lack of understanding and empathy for anyone suffering from mental health.
It’s generally unlike women not to discuss personal and emotional issues with each other,
but for the Supremes it appears to have been the norm. Rather unusual considering all the time that they spent together.

[RanRan79]

now come on ran. in the Prologue and Epilogue Mary included stuff from outside the 60s. and like i said earlier, she was able to have total recall on every single snarky thing Diana ever did [[the late night hamburger, the sleeping on the floor bullshit) and yet when diana did something hugely magnanimous specifically for Mary in her hour of need, she couldn't have acknowledged that? that's just fucked up

mary makes 1 line about how she and D would try and curb their drinking to encourage flo to slow down. otherwise she pretty much had diana doing nothing bet egging on the problem when plenty of people have said BOTH girls were actively trying to help flo until it really was too late. Diana might have tossed in the town prior to mary but still, mary couldn't remember 1 detail of all of that????? even just to make some general statements and lines. it's not that she had to give exact dates and timestamps.

but she really painted diana as a bitch and solely as a bitch. i don't discount or deny that those snarky things happened. plenty of people have absolutely said she was very difficult, had an "artistic temperament" was demanding, etc. But she did do good things and mary completely overlooked that.

Mary started her book talking about Motown 25. Makes sense to start there doesn't it, considering that the show had taken place right before Mary started writing the book and the "shove" was big news? Mary ends the book talking about Flo's post Supremes life. Also makes sense, doesn't it, to dramatically end the book with the death of one third of the group? Everything else in between was about the 1960s Supremes. Again, where does Mary fit Diana's loan in? If she included that- seemingly out of the blue- why not include her domestic violence survival? What about her relationship with Flip Wilson? Why not address the controversy of the Supremes playing South Africa during apartheid?


I don't think anyone was prepared for just how successful Dreamgirl would become, but surely the publishers believed it would be successful or they wouldn't have bothered, right? So wouldn't it make sense that there was an "offer" on the table that if the first book does well enough, a sequel might be in order? So there was probably already an idea about telling the rest of the story.


Diana being depicted as a bitch in Mary's first book is up to interpretation, which I largely agree with. My question is what in the world does Mary's first book have to do with us discussing a passage from her second book? Somewhere along the way the first book entered the chat and I'm confused about its relevance.


So just to get us back on track, I'll repeat:


Do I believe it's absolutely impossible that what Mary said in the article never took place? Absolutely not. Sure, it could have, just like it could have been as Mary said it was in her book. Yes, I'm inclined to believe Mary's recollection in her book because to me it makes sense based off of what we "know" about their relationship, and the fact that it's hard for me to understand the angle she would have been using "we never talked about Flo dying" in her book if that were not true. What Mary said doesn't make Diana look bad. Mary never wrote "I reached out to Diana but she never called me back" or "I mentioned Flo dying to Diana and she screamed and yelled at me". Mary says they never talked about it. So who would be the bad guy in that scenario? What rule would determine which woman had to start the conversation?


I believe Mary's story.

[RanRan79]

Diana probably didn’t mean it a nasty way, but her comment did reveal a complete lack of understanding and empathy for anyone suffering from mental health.
It’s generally unlike women not to discuss personal and emotional issues with each other,
but for the Supremes it appears to have been the norm. Rather unusual considering all the time that they spent together.

I think a lot of people in Flo's life were frustrated by the whole situation. Mary criticized Flo's family in her second book, which I found totally unfair. Mary wrote about how frustrated she was with Flo when Flo came out for a few days or a week's visit. If Mary could be frustrated in so short a time, how does she think Flo's family felt dealing with Flo nearly every day?

Mental health just wasn't understood on a mass scale like it is today. Even today it is still not given the respect that it deserves, hence why so many folks seem to be untreated and undiagnosed, melting down- in one way or another- in public. So it's not surprising that there was an attitude about Flo at the time, like "Why doesn't she just get herself together".

Diana always portrayed her relation to Flo's drinking as if she couldn't understand why Flo would do that to herself. I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for years now, for Diana to speak on Flo's drinking in relation to Diana's drinking. Does she get it now, having been through her own substance abuse issues? If that abandoned book from her early sobriety period ever shows up, maybe I'll get my answers.

[Ollie9]

I think a lot of people in Flo's life were frustrated by the whole situation. Mary criticized Flo's family in her second book, which I found totally unfair. Mary wrote about how frustrated she was with Flo when Flo came out for a few days or a week's visit. If Mary could be frustrated in so short a time, how does she think Flo's family felt dealing with Flo nearly every day?

Mental health just wasn't understood on a mass scale like it is today. Even today it is still not given the respect that it deserves, hence why so many folks seem to be untreated and undiagnosed, melting down- in one way or another- in public. So it's not surprising that there was an attitude about Flo at the time, like "Why doesn't she just get herself together".

Diana always portrayed her relation to Flo's drinking as if she couldn't understand why Flo would do that to herself. I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for years now, for Diana to speak on Flo's drinking in relation to Diana's drinking. Does she get it now, having been through her own substance abuse issues? If that abandoned book from her early sobriety period ever shows up, maybe I'll get my answers.

That statement came from Diana in 76 where mental health was more understood though not nearly as much as it is today. I would so love for one last book from Diana to see if time and experience have altered her views on so much that went down during her time as a Supreme.

[sup_fan]

That statement came from Diana in 76 where mental health was more understood though not nearly as much as it is today. I would so love for one last book from Diana to see if time and experience have altered her views on so much that went down during her time as a Supreme.

how about if we just get one basic book from Diana minus the syrupy platitudes and just talk about her experiences, what happened and how she felt about them. Sparrow was a worthless pile of tripe.

[reese]

how about if we just get one basic book from Diana minus the syrupy platitudes and just talk about her experiences, what happened and how she felt about them. Sparrow was a worthless pile of tripe.

I think there are some instances in SPARROW where Diana does write well of her experiences, particularly her formative years and her relationship with Berry. She even wrote that Flo had emotional problems that were more severe than what they knew when they were actually happening, showing that she herself indeed had had some growth since those years.

But I don't think Diana is the type to be publicly confessional, which is probably why she backed out of doing the second book and the tv interview connected with it. Maybe she saves that for her family and not the masses.

[sup_fan]

I think there are some instances in SPARROW where Diana does write well of her experiences, particularly her formative years and her relationship with Berry. She even wrote that Flo had emotional problems that were more severe than what they knew when they were actually happening, showing that she herself indeed had had some growth since those years.

But I don't think Diana is the type to be publicly confessional, which is probably why she backed out of doing the second book and the tv interview connected with it. Maybe she saves that for her family and not the masses.

true. she makes a few comments about her relationship with Berry, Flo and Mary which are quite insightful. but agree. we'll never receive anything additional. the odds of her writing a detailed memoire are nonexistent

[midnightman]

I think in 1976, Diana seemed oblivious to how her actions at the funeral would've been perceived. Looking at that footage, you can clearly see Mary was uncomfortable to have to be brought up to the stage. Everything was so chaotic that day that I'm surprised it didn't get worse than that.

Diana definitely could've handled things better than she did. And during those years, Diana and Mary were NOT close. At all. Having read the biographies, how can one assume they kept in touch when they didn't? I've taken this long to reflect on Diana's actions especially as she found her personal life in so much tatters that she resorted to drinking like Florence.

Diana's public persona is what I like to call toxic positivity. So positive that you try to hide the not so positive stuff until it consumes you. This is likely what was going on with Diana and probably still is. The books that have talked about Diana pushed her to a corner where she wouldn't show up in fears she would be asked those painful questions. Her actions in that funeral though were not excusable, I'm sorry. You don't show up at someone's funeral causing a scene, sitting in the front pew of the church with the deceased's family for a photo-OP and then throw your ex-singing partner off by bringing her to the front to speak when she was in no condition to speak up as she was grieving.

Diana left as soon as the funeral wrapped up while Mary stayed which shows that if anything she fed into the media's accusations that she was cold-hearted and only does things for show. I'm not saying Diana hated Mary and Florence but I am saying that she never considered their feelings on matters. In regards to Florence, she couldn't understand why Florence wanted some leads in songs and why Motown forced her to retire "People" just so Diana could sing it fully or why Mary felt the way she did about how she left the group since, according to Mary, she was never in the same vicinity with her, Florence, and later Cindy, unless it was time to hit the stage.

Diana herself did mention she felt alone during her Supremes tenure [[and that's usually cause she was almost always with Berry after February 1965) but whatever made her feel that way she will never fully explain and she has that right to but honestly it's frustrating when we have opinions from the other two originals - and Cindy - but Diana herself keeps her feelings bottled up. Honestly those four - especially the original three - should've gotten together somewhere during that period [[mid-1970s) and discuss their feelings but knowing how they were during this period, I doubt it. Least Diana and Florence had some nice conversations prior to Flo's sudden passing.

The whole thing is just sad.

[Ollie9]

I think in 1976, Diana seemed oblivious to how her actions at the funeral would've been perceived. Looking at that footage, you can clearly see Mary was uncomfortable to have to be brought up to the stage. Everything was so chaotic that day that I'm surprised it didn't get worse than that.

Diana definitely could've handled things better than she did. And during those years, Diana and Mary were NOT close. At all. Having read the biographies, how can one assume they kept in touch when they didn't? I've taken this long to reflect on Diana's actions especially as she found her personal life in so much tatters that she resorted to drinking like Florence.

Diana's public persona is what I like to call toxic positivity. So positive that you try to hide the not so positive stuff until it consumes you. This is likely what was going on with Diana and probably still is. The books that have talked about Diana pushed her to a corner where she wouldn't show up in fears she would be asked those painful questions. Her actions in that funeral though were not excusable, I'm sorry. You don't show up at someone's funeral causing a scene, sitting in the front pew of the church with the deceased's family for a photo-OP and then throw your ex-singing partner off by bringing her to the front to speak when she was in no condition to speak up as she was grieving.

Diana left as soon as the funeral wrapped up while Mary stayed which shows that if anything she fed into the media's accusations that she was cold-hearted and only does things for show. I'm not saying Diana hated Mary and Florence but I am saying that she never considered their feelings on matters. In regards to Florence, she couldn't understand why Florence wanted some leads in songs and why Motown forced her to retire "People" just so Diana could sing it fully or why Mary felt the way she did about how she left the group since, according to Mary, she was never in the same vicinity with her, Florence, and later Cindy, unless it was time to hit the stage.

Diana herself did mention she felt alone during her Supremes tenure [[and that's usually cause she was almost always with Berry after February 1965) but whatever made her feel that way she will never fully explain and she has that right to but honestly it's frustrating when we have opinions from the other two originals - and Cindy - but Diana herself keeps her feelings bottled up. Honestly those four - especially the original three - should've gotten together somewhere during that period [[mid-1970s) and discuss their feelings but knowing how they were during this period, I doubt it. Least Diana and Florence had some nice conversations prior to Flo's sudden passing.

The whole thing is just sad.

A very honest and insightful post midnight.