Some "Touch" Thoughts

[sup_fan]

I wonder when those MSS shows were in rehearsal if the ladies, with the director present, kept their vocals under control and didn't try to outsing each other?

Another question about those MSS shows--when they were being assembled, what was going through their minds? Did they think there was a big audience for rushed hit medleys in a unidress spoofing Hair, and scarf dances to the title track of High Energy?

The MSS live era could definitely be considered the Spinal Tap phase of the group

in an interview of two, Susaye mentioned that most of the decisions were mary's. i was asking her about the gowns and if they were all selecting and choosing outfits and styles. but i would assume this applies to pretty much everything.

[Circa 1824]

“You melt me like hot candle wax.”

Horrible lyric at the very beginning of the song sung so every syllable is stretched as far as possible. The song is sh*t, and no vocalist can save it.

[jobeterob]

That wasn’t the best lyric by far

The real problem is that “waltz’s are not usually the type of songs that really sell” and Touch is not even a waltz. You have to have something really special to make that kind of song a hit - like The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face or Never My Love. Despite the fact I really like Touch as some fans do, Touch is nowhere near that kind of special.

That kind of song really was a risky move and is really seen as the beginning of the end.

[Ollie9]

I think had the song taken off it would be regarded very differently today.
I best enjoy the version on Mary’s Motown Anthology set, proving more then ever that it should have been a Mary solo. Jeans voice sounds almost intrusive, and dare i say hard sounding for such a sensual song.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think had the song taken off it would be regarded very differently today.
I best enjoy the version on Mary’s Motown Anthology set, proving more then ever that it should have been a Mary solo. Jeans voice sounds almost intrusive, and dare i say hard sounding for such a sensual song.

I agree that had it become a hit, it would have been regarded as a progression in the Supremes' sound. Many people think that the Supremes' sound was also Diana Ross' sound but she was allowed to progress into different genres for her singles as a soloist with no comments at all. I think this should have been a Mary solo, as well. The arrangement should have been slightly different with a better intro. Jean's singing here is in such stark contrast to Mary and doesn't work well with Mary's sound on this song. Jean can sound softer, witness her work alone on IGIMTM and Jean and Mary sounded much better together on the shared Floy Joy and Automatically Sunshine, where Jean is not as shrill a contrast in sound and the result were 2 songs that did much better on the charts than Touch did.

[sup_fan]

i agree with the comment that for a ballad to be a smash, it was to be totally amazing. something magical and timeless. we fans can definitely suffer from total devotion and blindness to the group. but let's look at the other ballads from the 70s group [[skipping covers)

Then I met you
But i love you more
is there a place
this is the story
touch
it's so hard to say goodbye

i don't know that i'd put any of those in the category of timeless magic. a song so amazing and iconic. these are very good songs, more or less. but touch is nowhere near the top of this list. much less the top of the charts

so you have a type of song [[a ballad) that's going to be a bit harder to push, its a genre of songs that the group has basically 0 track record in when it comes to singles, the single itself was horribly mixed - so sloppy and amateur, you're introducing a new idea of dual lead singers to a group that has been very strongly associated with 1 absolute lead, the 2nd voice is unfamiliar to the general public, the intro is just weird with the creepy strings and funeral procession snare drum, a few awkward lyrics, voices just not meshing well together

[thommg]

I have always loved Touch [[the song), but I have doubts about it's single viability - especially in the dreadful single mix that was released. Without a doubt, the Mary Wilson Motown Anthology mix is the best one out there. I think that Here Comes The Sunrise or It's So Hard For Me To Say Goodbye would have been a better follow-up to Nathan Jones. I do not think this was the beginning of the end as they bounced back with Floy Joy. The beginning of the end was more indicated by I Guess I'll Miss The Man. It's recorded version is a bit sterile. If the version they did live, with more background and more soulful vocals from Jean, had been recorded it might have had a better chance. Still, not a good choice for a single. And, why did they leave 5:30 Plane to languish? That was an obvious single off of the Produced & Arranged album.

[RanRan79]

I agree that as fans we can be blinded by our love for this group. However, I also think we're a bit unique that we also tend to overanalyze and critique the Supremes in an unrealistic way. For instance, the Supremes are the only music conversations where I have ever heard people talk about "commercial voice". I've never heard that anywhere else about any other group or artists, only this one. Not saying it doesn't come up in regards to other artists, just that I've never seen it.

"Touch" having to be some magical ballad to make it seems overly critical, IMO. The Bells' "Stay Awhile" was a hit that same year. Wanna talk about awkward opening? It sounds like a young girl getting ready to tell us about that awful thing that happens to her. The rest of the song sounds like what I might play if I decided to kill myself and needed music for ambiance. For sure "Touch" is a "better" song than that.

I don't think the lyrics to "Touch" turned anyone off. I think ultimately it didn't sound like the Supremes, since it was much slower than any of their other singles since becoming a household name. I also think Jean didn't help. The two voices just didn't take the song up a notch. Mary alone probably would have done it. And the mix...no. Just no.

How far would it have gotten in "perfection"? Who knows? But that's the risk of the business, isn't it? Not knowing how well a song will or won't do until it hits or it doesn't. Ultimately, record companies- Motown included- were throwing songs at the wall [[the public) and seeing what sticks [[hits). And when you got down to it, there was no real method to the madness of what the public would go for and what they wouldn't.

Criticisms aside, I don't think there was anything so bad about "Touch" that we should conclude that it didn't have a chance in hell.

[RanRan79]

Having said that, artists like the Supremes, who long ago established a certain way of doing things, often find it difficult to do something else and do it differently than what people expect and get the public's support. "Touch" really was "radically" different than what the public was used to with the Supremes. [[That's my argument against Disco Supremes, as well.) Another Motown group or artist, say maybe Gladys Knight, might have been able to take this same song, arranged the same exact way, and have better success. Maybe if the Supremes farewell was both Diana and Mary leaving, and "Touch" was Mary's first single, it might have fared differently. But under the Supremes' name, "Touch" is just different enough that it might have been it's own worst enemy.

[RanRan79]

I have always loved Touch [[the song), but I have doubts about it's single viability - especially in the dreadful single mix that was released. Without a doubt, the Mary Wilson Motown Anthology mix is the best one out there. I think that Here Comes The Sunrise or It's So Hard For Me To Say Goodbye would have been a better follow-up to Nathan Jones. I do not think this was the beginning of the end as they bounced back with Floy Joy. The beginning of the end was more indicated by I Guess I'll Miss The Man. It's recorded version is a bit sterile. If the version they did live, with more background and more soulful vocals from Jean, had been recorded it might have had a better chance. Still, not a good choice for a single. And, why did they leave 5:30 Plane to languish? That was an obvious single off of the Produced & Arranged album.

I LOVE "Goodbye", but don't know that I would have faith in it as a single. I think "Sunrise" had a very good chance and it boggles my mind why, after the success of "Never Can Say Goodbye", Motown would have skipped over another Clifton Davis composition.

[sup_fan]

I LOVE "Goodbye", but don't know that I would have faith in it as a single. I think "Sunrise" had a very good chance and it boggles my mind why, after the success of "Never Can Say Goodbye", Motown would have skipped over another Clifton Davis composition.

while i find the NCSG cover within the Promises Kept sessions to be only so-so, i think had the Sups done the version that the J5 did, i could have been amazing. it should have been recorded by the supremes and been on Touch, in lieu of Time and Love. and it would have been a perfect follow up to Nathan

[Ollie9]

If a slow track was to be released, the mysterious and haunting “Love It Came To Me This Time” would have been a far more radio friendly single. Unlike “Touch”, the song really suits Jean’s voice. At least top twenty methinks.

[sup_fan]

If a slow track was to be released, the mysterious and haunting “Love It Came To Me This Time” would have been a far more radio friendly single. Unlike “Touch”, the song really suits Jean’s voice. At least top twenty methinks.

i'd vote for Goodbye. it's an amazing vocal by the whole group, a more traditional heartbreak ballad, give climactic ending

[Ollie9]

i'd vote for Goodbye. it's an amazing vocal by the whole group, a more traditional heartbreak ballad, give climactic ending

I don’t think “Goodbye’ had a strong enough chorus to make much of a splash. It’s a nice enough song, but doesn’t really go anywhere.

[marybrewster]

“You melt me like hot candle wax.”

Horrible lyric at the very beginning of the song sung so every syllable is stretched as far as possible. The song is sh*t, and no vocalist can save it.

I'm so glad to see this. I've often thought that it is the worst line of any song, ever.

[sup_fan]

I'm so glad to see this. I've often thought that it is the worst line of any song, ever.

haha i agree its bad. i don't think it's the worst - that belongs to Shame and the toxic jam fumes that off'd mama. but Touch has the dubious distinction of the worst OPENING line.

[RanRan79]

I'm so glad to see this. I've often thought that it is the worst line of any song, ever.

I don't understand this. Lol Hot wax melts. She's saying this dude [[or Jean, apparently nobody knows for sure) makes her melt, which is probably a euphemism for "something else". Is it the melting that's the problem? Is it melting hot candle wax that's the issue? If so, what would have made a better lyric:

"You melt me like ice"
"You melt me like ice cream"
"You melt me like snow"
"You melt me like frost on a car windshield"
"You melt me like chocolate"
"You melt me like butter"
"You melt me like cheese"
"You melt me like plastic"

I just don't see what the issue is. It's also a bit funny that nobody had an issue with Michael Jackson when he recycled "hot candle wax" for "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough".

[RanRan79]

Going back to the lyrics, although I said previously that the lyrics probably wasn't the problem, I've re-thought that because if you listen to "Touch", it's actually a very sexy song. This isn't just romance, it's intercourse. If lyrics turned anyone off, my money is that people weren't interested in intercoursing Supremes. Seriously though, the Supremes have always been a safe group, whose music everyone- young and old, grandparents and grandchildren- could listen to. If you think about it, "Touch" really was radically different from the safety of their usual lyrical content. The public wasn't ready. Lol

[RanRan79]

I love "Too Much A Little Too Soon", but I think it was ultimately shelved because of what's really going on in the song and Gordy would have thought that a no no for his Supremes.

[Ollie9]

Going back to the lyrics, although I said previously that the lyrics probably wasn't the problem, I've re-thought that because if you listen to "Touch", it's actually a very sexy song. This isn't just romance, it's intercourse. If lyrics turned anyone off, my money is that people weren't interested in intercoursing Supremes. Seriously though, the Supremes have always been a safe group, whose music everyone- young and old, grandparents and grandchildren- could listen to. If you think about it, "Touch" really was radically different from the safety of their usual lyrical content. The public wasn't ready. Lol

A valid point as i have always found listening to the song as erotic as sexual intercourse itself. Surely they can’t be the only group ever to have made reference to being melted like hot candle wax.

[Spreadinglove21]

I wonder if Mahogany was thinking about the opening line of Touch in the scene in the movie where she drips candle wax all over herself or when she comes home to Brian all drenched in dried candlewax?

[Ollie9]

I wonder if Mahogany was thinking about the opening line of Touch in the scene in the movie where she drips candle wax all over herself or when she comes home to Brian all drenched in dried candlewax?

Most likely she was. Mary was seldom far from Diana’s thoughts.

[TheMotownManiac]

haha i agree its bad. i don't think it's the worst - that belongs to Shame and the toxic jam fumes that off'd mama. but Touch has the dubious distinction of the worst OPENING line.

glory hallelujah! The homemade jam made me cringe for years, but I think the candle wax is the worst line I have ever ever heard in any song add an absolute terrible way to begin it. Plus, Mary’s voice is soft and sensual and comes out of nowhere because there’s no actual lead in, so the effectiveness of her read is lost. I love the idea of this song, but I think the lyrics are pedantic and lugubrious and trying to be something that they aren’t. The production meanders all over the place and that heavy, quasi-Baroque strings add atmosphere, but it doesn’t seem to belong. I still think of this track as a hot mess, and I thought it was the first time I heard it. That being said, the anthology version is so much better, But I still don’t think it out a snowballs chance in hell. I can’t imagine program directors even playing it all the way through to see if they were going to add it or not, and we can tell that the ones that did didn’t get much of a response. I give Frank Wilson credit for trying to be mature and perhaps controversial and four diversifying the sound of the Supremes, this just wasn’t the ticket. Most of us agree Mary had the goods to be successful within her niche, but she needed material crafted especially for her. Like Olivia Newton-John got. Or the Supremes in the 60s.

I never buy into the theory that cloud the public wasn’t used to hearing that kind of song from that group “because I don’t believe the public pigeonholes its artists. Most of the public didn’t care what the Supremes were singing usually, they cared if they liked it or not. Diana ross had never put out a ballot before text me in the morning and the first one went to number one. I guess I’m still waiting was a ballad, but after three under performing singles, it was going to be difficult to get adds.

[RanRan79]

I never buy into the theory that cloud the public wasn’t used to hearing that kind of song from that group “because I don’t believe the public pigeonholes its artists.

You must have been born yesterday to believe that one.

[sup_fan]

A valid point as i have always found listening to the song as erotic as sexual intercourse itself. Surely they can’t be the only group ever to have made reference to being melted like hot candle wax.

while i'm not a big fan of the candle wax line, i do think the idea of sexying up the Sup image and sound would have been a good idea. the 70s were different from the 60s. there was less modesty. i think the Sups should have still been appropriate but have a more overtly sexual tone to a song wouldn't have been terrible. i don't think they needed to go as far as Love To Love You Baby lol

[RanRan79]

i don't think they needed to go as far as Love To Love You Baby lol

Love Donna Summer, but honestly, Mary would have killed that. Lol

[sup_fan]

started sharing this on the Ross 78 thread since Touch was brought up there but figured i'd jump to this thread

looking at the charts while NJ was released is very interesting. talk about girl power!!

if you look at the songs on the charts when NJ peaked, you also have:

*it's too late - carole king
*want ads - honey cone
*mr big stuff - jean knight
*Nathan jones - sups
*i don't want to do wrong - GKATP

those are all some very strong songs led by ladies. we all certainly see NJ as a hugely unique song within the sups discography, and it is. but maybe timing was part of the problem. if it had been released maybe a month earlier, maybe it would have stood out more from the crowd. but by early summer 71, lots of women were telling those good for nothing men to go jump in a lake lol

[sup_fan]

looking at billboard, they did include full page ads for lots of groups. interesting there seems to be a LOT for the new labels, especially Rare Earth. wasn't that one of Ewart Abner's strategies? to diversify the labels more by adding Chisa [[for jazz) Rare Earth for rock and roll, Mowest, Ecology [[with Sammy Davis). seems like all this did was dilute the promotional budgets

here's a listing of things from feb through sept 71

Nathan Jones [[and includes a tag line of "from their forthcoming album Touch)

Smiling Faces

I Don't Want To Do Wrong

Rare Earth's album with I just Want To Celebrate.

Where i'm coming from

Eddie Kendricks It's So Hard and the album All By Myself

Chisa label with the Crusaders, Hugh & the Union of South Africa and some others

Mowest and Tom Clay what the world needs now

Stoney & Meatload on Rare Earth [[they got a 1/4 page ad one week and a full page the following week)

Diana! - a full 2-page ad spread, a pic and banner on the cover

R Dean Taylor on Rare Earth

Smokey Miracles - I don't blame you at all

Valerie Simpson

four tops macarthur park

Black Forum grammy winners

Sammy Davis on the Ecology label

Kiki Dee on rare earth

Temps Just My Imagination

What's going on - the single

Mama's pearl and J3 Third album

[BobbyC]

The problem with Touch is that the whole song is about shutting TFU and touching your partner, but Jean Terrell ruined it by ad-libbing "talk to me, talk to me." That is all.

[RanRan79]

The problem with Touch is that the whole song is about shutting TFU and touching your partner, but Jean Terrell ruined it by ad-libbing "talk to me, talk to me." That is all.

Now that's a reason to not like "Touch"!!

[sup_fan]

The problem with Touch is that the whole song is about shutting TFU and touching your partner, but Jean Terrell ruined it by ad-libbing "talk to me, talk to me." That is all.

isn't that cindy's line? but yes! lol i've always thought "why are you saying talk, when 3 lines ago someone you don't need to say a thing?" lolol

[BobbyC]

Jean forgot that fancy words would only ruin it

[RanRan79]

Jean forgot that fancy words would only ruin it

It probably was the shock of watching her lover melt like hot candle wax. Or are we still pretending that Mary and Jean weren't singing to each other?

[johnjeb]

Right away I thought it was weird that Mary and Jean were trading lines back and forth with such sensual lyrics. It might have sounded a bit different if Cindy had a few lines, as well. Of course, I agree that Mary should have had this song as a solo.

In The Temptations song "You're My Everything" Eddie and David trade lines but they each add the word "girl", so there definitely is no ambiguity there.

I liked the hot candle wax line, very sexy. A line from "I Wish I Were Your Mirror" - a great song - always has me rolling my eyes. "I wish I were your sweater, at least you'd wear me"!

[sup_fan]

i often have Youtube playing while making dinner and stuff, just sort of clicking from one vid to another. Last night a few Sup vids cycled through and one was Touch from the Tokyo concert with MSC. it was an interesting slightly alt version of the tune. but again one of the biggest problems was the immediate intro. the brass start in playing in a minor key, its a full big sound but in the key it almost sounds ominous. could almost be a cliched entrance music to an old-timey villian in a movie. it all changes with the initial singing by the girls - all 3 sing in 3-part harmony the opening line "darling just relax". and the pace is pulled back even further. it's quite slow. almost like a hypnotic dream-state. but at the bridge it picks up considerably.

i don't know that these differences would have had an impact on the single. but it brings out another aspect of the song

[sup_fan]

had another thought on Touch

in many of the discussions of Mary's lead vocals, we often mention the smoky misty quality to her tone. how it can be almost like a warm velvet robe enveloping you. her lower register can be amazing. and yet Touch barely utilizes that range.

many times producers would purposely write songs just outside a singer's comfort zone in order to make them push and stretch for elusive notes. but often that stretching occurs later in the song. by the bridge or after that, in order to add drama and passion.

I Keep It Hid is a prime example of using the full range of Mary's voice. the warm and dusky lower ranges in the verses and then the stunning head voice at the end.

Auto Sunshine - although not a romantic ballad, the husky whispery effects she uses on her lead lines is so perfect for this song

And if you think about the tone and intent of a song like Touch, you would think more of this sexy bedroom tone of voice would be so immediately obvious. I wonder if too much of the lead lines are too much in the upper range of mary's voice and didn't use her talents to the best effect. give her time earlier in the song to lay it on and then push her. like after the bridge when she sings the line "your touch means more than words Ohhhhh than any language ever heard.' the cry of Ohhhh is wonderful being in her upper range but she's already spent 2 mins up there.