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    Some "Touch" Thoughts

    Having recently discovered Renee Geyer's version of "Touch", of course it had my mind wondering. Renee's version was also produced by Frank Wilson. I think if Frank had arranged the Supremes version the way he did Renee's, the single might have been more successful. Now keep in mind, I'm not suggesting that 1971 Frank Wilson arrange a song in the exact same way 1977 Frank Wilson would. Also keep in mind Frank had done an almost exact arrangement for the Originals, but it hits different with a man singing it, hard to compare to the Supremes. But I think Renee's version has a bit of a throwback feel to it and that the general arrangement could have worked for the Supremes. Also hearing Renee sing the song alone makes me even more resolved in my opinion that the Supremes' "Touch" should have been a Mary lead alone, no duet.

    I'm a fan of "Touch". I think it was a good song. For years I subscribed to the opinion that it was a lost hit, that it could have, and should have, been bigger if only Motown had done something about it. Over the years I've changed my mind. I still think the Supremes' version is a good song, but it never should have been a single. As an album cut, it works just fine, and as an album title it works fine as well. But the duetting Supremes doesn't seem to fit well. Listening to Renee's version also makes me realize another problem with the Supremes version: the arrangement is boring. Fine for an album cut, but for a single, it needed some "oomph". The J5 version is nice, and it fits them. I think the duet between them works in a way that it just doesn't for Mary and Jean. But even their version wouldn't have made sense as an A side. There just isn't a lot there.

    The Supremes were pretty much a mid to uptempo singles group, rarely releasing a proper ballad as a single. I think for them to go this route with the group at that point, "Touch" needed some serious tweaks.

    So what do you think? Was "Touch" a lost cause from the moment pen was put to paper? Do you think the duet was a good idea in theory but poorly executed? Should Mary have sung it alone? Should Jean? Maybe Cindy singing it is the missing piece? Is Renee's more soulful groove necessary or do you dig the way the Supremes' version is arranged as is? Would more tv exposure have helped the original single at all?

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    Renee Geyer




    The Supremes


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    I felt Touch was one of the greatest soul ballads of the 70's--I still feel that way. Mary should have done it alone IMO.

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    Touch was a very good song. I must admit I do like the arrangement on Renee Geyer's version a bit more, especially the intro. The way the Supremes' intro starts out really does not give you the start to the lush soul ballad that it is. I also heard the version on the Anthology that has Mary singing more of the lead and Jean not such a stark contrast and I liked that better than the released version. Mary definitely should have done that lead solo. Her vocal captures more of the essence of the song. I have always felt that her vocals were a warm vocal caress and with her doing it alone it may have helped the song do better on the charts and actually helped their progression going forward not only because of her link as an original but that it showed they could retain glamour and progress into different genres while maintaining their identity.
    Last edited by jim aka jtigre99; 01-29-2023 at 12:26 PM.

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    I think the overwhelming problem with the Supremes Touch can be surmised in one word: Wrong.

    To name the lp Touch while Nathan Jones was scaling the charts to become a formidable hit was a wrong marketing ploy. If the lp was not the be named Nathan Jones it should have had a more generic name, Third Album or some such. Nobody was familiar with Touch before the lp and a selected few only knew it after. On first listen I didn't think anything of the song, but it grew on me and now is a favorite. But I am an unabashed Supremes fan. The general public will take a liking or disliking to something and it stays there.

    Second, the single release stopped the groups momentum. Berry Gordy was always loathe to release a ballad as a single and Frank should have learned from the relative failure of Diana's Reach Out and Touch that the public equated Motown, and especially the Supremes with uptempo numbers. The initial second release off the Touch lp was to be Here Comes The Sunrise. It had received FM play and Motown was leaning toward it when Frank Wilson demanded a remix of Touch to be the next single. While easy listening stations gave the lp title track some airplay it should have occurred to someone that those were the only stations that would have played a single mix of the song. And even when a slightly faster single edit was issued, AC stations shied away from it.

    To prove my point when Motown followed this bomb with Floy Joy, it was catchy and danceable and AM radio nationwide jumped on it right away to make it a hit record.

    The Supremes just didn't have good luck releasing ballads. To wit, My Heart Can't Take It No More, Forever Came Today, The Young Folks. There is the old saying, "there's always a first time." Alas for the Supremes it never was.

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    So that it's here "for the record" [[ha-ha!), here is The Originals' version of "Touch" from their 1976 album, "Communique":


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    Personally, I enjoy "Touch" by The Supremes in the original incarnation AND in the newly remixed version on Mary Wilson Anthology.

    I thought I'd share something a longtime friend of mine, who is a big music fan [including Motown--but probably not to the extent we here at SDF are], recently said in conversation about '70s Supremes singles that he thought "Touch" was not a good song *for single release* because it gave off a "lesbian vibe." [For the record, this was NOT intended as a derrogatory comment about being gay. NOW, please continue reading!] He felt that it seemed odd that Mary was singing, "Darling, just relax... you melt me like hot candle wax..." and then Jean comes in a few lines later and says, "Just keep doing what you're doing..." In his opinion, this might have given the average radio listener the idea that something was odd... these two women were trading lines back and forth about "touching" one another. I do not AGREE that would have been the impression given, but... I can appreciate the point. I listen to it and hear it as two women trading the lead vocal back and forth in talking about the man each loves. Was the duetting aspect of this song--between two women--a little weird? Especially in 1971? OR... is this just one person's opinion and it wasn't true in 1971--or any time since?

    I will say that I don't feel there was any mistake in releasing a love ballad such as "Touch," however, I wonder whether two lead voices singing on the record confused radio listeners? Especially a less familiar voice opening the song? I think we all realize that Mary and Jean each recorded a full lead version of this song and then the "duet" was created in editing the two together, so... Should Mary have just been given the lead on the entire song? Should it have just been Jean [the then pretty familiar voice of The Sups in 1971]? Or... was it generally fine being split between the two ladies as it was and... the record just didn't cut the mustard with listeners for whatever reason?

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    i liked the Supremes version of Touch and the album , but agree this should have been Marys shining moment. it fit her and imo was no need for a duet. never got it. the Anthology version is also nice.always kinda hoped Mary would have Rerecorded the song with George Michael. maybe Marvin at the time would have been a good duet.
    i do like the arrangment on Renees version ,nice cover

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    after listening to the original , which i like, does it feel clunky at times. at one point it seems to flow and then the horns kick in as if it too much. imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by danman869 View Post
    Personally, I enjoy "Touch" by The Supremes in the original incarnation AND in the newly remixed version on Mary Wilson Anthology.

    I thought I'd share something a longtime friend of mine, who is a big music fan [including Motown--but probably not to the extent we here at SDF are], recently said in conversation about '70s Supremes singles that he thought "Touch" was not a good song *for single release* because it gave off a "lesbian vibe." [For the record, this was NOT intended as a derrogatory comment about being gay. NOW, please continue reading!] He felt that it seemed odd that Mary was singing, "Darling, just relax... you melt me like hot candle wax..." and then Jean comes in a few lines later and says, "Just keep doing what you're doing..." In his opinion, this might have given the average radio listener the idea that something was odd... these two women were trading lines back and forth about "touching" one another. I do not AGREE that would have been the impression given, but... I can appreciate the point. I listen to it and hear it as two women trading the lead vocal back and forth in talking about the man each loves. Was the duetting aspect of this song--between two women--a little weird? Especially in 1971? OR... is this just one person's opinion and it wasn't true in 1971--or any time since?

    I will say that I don't feel there was any mistake in releasing a love ballad such as "Touch," however, I wonder whether two lead voices singing on the record confused radio listeners? Especially a less familiar voice opening the song? I think we all realize that Mary and Jean each recorded a full lead version of this song and then the "duet" was created in editing the two together, so... Should Mary have just been given the lead on the entire song? Should it have just been Jean [the then pretty familiar voice of The Sups in 1971]? Or... was it generally fine being split between the two ladies as it was and... the record just didn't cut the mustard with listeners for whatever reason?
    I had never thought about this. I will say in 2023, yes I can see the connotation. But in 1971 it was a much more innocent time, so I doubt anybody came to this conclusion. I'm sure throughout all the correspondences we Supremes had back then via fan club and snail mail, somebody would have mentioned this but, to me, nobody did.

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    Danman--very interesting, the whole lesbian "vibe" thing. I think your friend might be on to something. People were so scared of the "gay threat" back then--I remember it very well, unfortunately. Eddie Kendrick's album He's A Friend almost got shelved for the "gay overtones," real or imagined. I also recall friends turning on Labelle when it was discovered that they had a large gay following. A little later, the same crap happened to Stevie Nicks when she dared to write a song about another woman, Sarah, and people gossiped that she was a lez-bean. totally ridiculous by today's standards but that's how things were back then. Nothing, not even serial killers, were more hated than gay people.

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    Some really interesting points. Lyric wise, i have always thought the song a bit of an odd one for two female voices to share. It probably didn’t help, but i doubt it stopped the song from becoming a hit.
    A combination of Mary’s voice with a male vocalist would have worked far much better, but i still don’t envisage it ever setting the charts alight.
    At the end of the day it’s just a lovely soulful album track. It’s release was a major mistake at a time when single success was vitally important for the group. Frank really got it wrong with this one.

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    Were there any other female groups "duetting" or sharing the lead around this time.....or ever?

    I think it was a completely foreign concept, and perhaps the biggest question that remained was: who is the lead singer of the Supremes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Danman--very interesting, the whole lesbian "vibe" thing. I think your friend might be on to something. People were so scared of the "gay threat" back then--I remember it very well, unfortunately. Eddie Kendrick's album He's A Friend almost got shelved for the "gay overtones," real or imagined. I also recall friends turning on Labelle when it was discovered that they had a large gay following. A little later, the same crap happened to Stevie Nicks when she dared to write a song about another woman, Sarah, and people gossiped that she was a lez-bean. totally ridiculous by today's standards but that's how things were back then. Nothing, not even serial killers, were more hated than gay people.
    I was a dj then and I don't remember that about He's A Friend. I do remember a year earlier his Get The Cream Off The Top, one of the best, funkiest tracks he ever did, was barred from airplay because of it's sexual connotation

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    Motown did the regular trade magazine ads but Touch bore no relation to any previous Supremes sound and while a few fans like me and others really liked the song, it wasn’t radio friendly either. And the singer songwriters were replacing the groups as hitmakers. The Temptations and Four Tops while sustaining better than the Supremes for a while, also we’re not the hitmakers they previously were.

    Touch was the significant start of a downhill slide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Were there any other female groups "duetting" or sharing the lead around this time.....or ever?
    I suppose we would only need go as far as Hitsville for this one: The Marvelettes, in their earliest hits, would occasionally split the lead vocal in individual songs between Gladys and Wanda. Eventually, there was a more solid differentiation when Gladys took the majority of leads...and then Wanda took the lead away--on singles, at least.

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    I never made any connection to the thought of Mary and Jean singing on Touch was a woman singing to another woman. Later in the 70's Donna Summers and Barbara Streisand also did a duet that went to the top ten. I agree with someone on here that said "Nathan Jones" should have been the title of the album. This album [[for me) did not give us a lot to pick from for the next single. I am the odd man out here and I would have picked "Have I Lost You" as the next single if I had to pick one from this album. This album also has an extra voice on it as well. I believe at the time Clydie King was used with Jean, Mary and Cindy to add a fuller sound. So to me its kind of a mix bag because they were moving to seek a new sound and I was starting to hear Cindy more as well. Now as far as "Touch", I don't think with Mary singing the whole song or Jean or Cindy or even Diana was going to help this song.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    I felt Touch was one of the greatest soul ballads of the 70's--I still feel that way. Mary should have done it alone IMO.
    Interesting declaration Bobby, it being one of the great soul ballads of that decade. I actually felt the same way for a long time. I guess I still might list it on my list of the great soul ballads of the 70s, my evolved criticism of it notwithstanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Touch was a very good song. I must admit I do like the arrangement on Renee Geyer's version a bit more, especially the intro. The way the Supremes' intro starts out really does not give you the start to the lush soul ballad that it is. I also heard the version on the Anthology that has Mary singing more of the lead and Jean not such a stark contrast and I liked that better than the released version. Mary definitely should have done that lead solo. Her vocal captures more of the essence of the song. I have always felt that her vocals were a warm vocal caress and with her doing it alone it may have helped the song do better on the charts and actually helped their progression going forward not only because of her link as an original but that it showed they could retain glamour and progress into different genres while maintaining their identity.
    The original trio's "self" professed personas were that Florence was the quiet one, which I think was given to her in an ironic way, rather than Motown pushing the image of a quiet Florence; Diana's changed from the intelligent one, which I think Motown realized was a mistake, suggesting that she was "smarter" than the other two, and, quite frankly, she surely didn't come across as the "intelligent" one in interviews compared to the other two, so they moved on to the indisputable "skinny one"; and of course Mary was the sexy one.

    I think Mary's persona was justified. She oozed it. I think all three Supremes [[and for that matter all the replacements afterwards) were beautiful women in their own right. We talk a lot about how Motown seemed to luck up on talented women capable of standing at the lead mic as Supremes [[Barbara and Cindy is debatable, I guess), but the Supremes also didn't have any shortage of beauty. All of those ladies were gorgeous, from Barbara to Susaye. But I don't think any of them oozed sexy like Mary Wilson.

    Jim, your description of her voice is spot on. I think her early abilities at ballad singing had a lot to do with what I refer to as a "cry" in Mary's voice, that made her voice perfect for sad songs about a young girl and the boy that got away. [[Mary would have done a far better job of selling "I Want a Guy" and "Who's Lovin You" than Diana did.) As time progressed, and her voice matured and sort of deepened, I think the smokiness of it gave it a sensual feeling that made it perfect for more sexy type songs. When Diana was in the group, they didn't really do that kind of stuff. But the changing times with the entrance of the 70s presented a perfect opportunity for songs like "Touch" and Mary to shine within.

    Maybe Frank heard it as a duet in his head. Maybe he wanted Mary to do the song but worried how Motown might feel about releasing a single [[and I'm guessing Frank started out with the intention that "Touch" would be a single) with just Mary so he brought Jean in on it. Maybe he heard the full Mary lead and decided he didn't like it with just Mary. I wish we knew what the creative process was like for the song. It's just hard for me to fathom that no one thought Mary was enough for this song. I think listeners might have liked it better with just Mary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danman869 View Post
    I think we all realize that Mary and Jean each recorded a full lead version of this song and then the "duet" was created in editing the two together, so...
    That was the rumor for quite some time. When the Mary anthology came out with Mary singing some of Jean's part, I figured that the rumor is most likely true. Hopefully if Touch EE ever sees the light of day [[I know, I know, Reflections EE, Ross78 EE, yeah, yeah, yeah...) we'll get confirmation and hopefully the full Mary and Jean leads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Some really interesting points. Lyric wise, i have always thought the song a bit of an odd one for two female voices to share. It probably didn’t help, but i doubt it stopped the song from becoming a hit.
    A combination of Mary’s voice with a male vocalist would have worked far much better, but i still don’t envisage it ever setting the charts alight.
    At the end of the day it’s just a lovely soulful album track. It’s release was a major mistake at a time when single success was vitally important for the group. Frank really got it wrong with this one.
    I did once opine that "Touch" might have worked better if it had been one of the Supremes and Tops duets. Perhaps Mary and Lawrence could have turned the song into a hit. Certainly would've made more sense than "You Gotta Have Love", me thinks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Were there any other female groups "duetting" or sharing the lead around this time.....or ever?

    I think it was a completely foreign concept, and perhaps the biggest question that remained was: who is the lead singer of the Supremes?
    I don't think there was any question about who the lead singer was. Jean was singing just about everything.

    Interestingly, whatever the issues were with Mary and Jean duetting on "Touch", the next hit single was Mary and Jean duetting, proving that it wasn't Mary and Jean singing together that was the problem, on it's own. Of course on "Floy Joy" it's easy to hear the two ladies singing about the same guy, as opposed to any confusion about them singing to each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    Touch was the significant start of a downhill slide.
    But it wasn't. The very next single was "Floy Joy", a bonafide hit. "Automatically Sunshine"'s chart positions are pretty respectable when you consider how little promoted the song was. "Your Wonderful Sweet" could be described as the start of the downhill slide, but who was prepared for the disaster that was to come with "I Guess I'll Miss the Man"? I think that's the one the group found it hard to recover from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    But it wasn't. The very next single was "Floy Joy", a bonafide hit. "Automatically Sunshine"'s chart positions are pretty respectable when you consider how little promoted the song was. "Your Wonderful Sweet" could be described as the start of the downhill slide, but who was prepared for the disaster that was to come with "I Guess I'll Miss the Man"? I think that's the one the group found it hard to recover from.
    Yeah it was. Floy Joy didn’t get to the Top 10 Pop. Automatically Sunshine barely scraped the Top 40. YWSSL got to about 60 and IGIMTM made it to about 89. Hits only to Supremes fans. The numbers are from memory.

    And as Mary said, none of the albums sold much - even Right On. They were lucky to sell 250000 copies.

    There was a little glimmer of hope around High Energy but I don’t think there was a willingness to put much emphasis on Susaye Greene and the hope totally fizzled with Mary Scherrie and Susaye.

    It was a disappointing time to be a fan after Touch.

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    i listened to all of 0:09 of the Renee version and stopped it, cuz i already knew the answer lol. YES!! whether or not you like the "doo-woopy" approach so the style, on this version Frank starts it out much more lush and sexy. I call the Supremes' version their "haunted house" song. the creepy strings playing the harmonics, the executioner's snare drum intro, etc. It is nothing like the beautiful second half of the song. The song is sexy and warm, the cold spooky intro was completely inappropriate

    the duet issue - i'm torn. I don't think this was the best combined vocals between the two. Jean is a bit shrill and Mary is misty. so it's a bit jarring. I'd be fine if that had just been a full Mary lead. the upper lines are not outside of mary's range, you could have actually had her doing some of those lines in the duet and jean doing some of the lower parts. and i think Cindy should have been given more in the verses.

    in the end though, should it have been a single even in the revised version? no. maybe if SL had gone #1 and NJ had gone top 5, but after the duds of the duets and NJ barely scraping into the Top 20, they needed a sure-fire mega hit. unfortunately i don't know if anything on the Touch lp would have met this and i don't know if any of the Promises Kept tracks did either.

    if they simply had to release a ballad, i think This is The Story would have been better

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I did once opine that "Touch" might have worked better if it had been one of the Supremes and Tops duets. Perhaps Mary and Lawrence could have turned the song into a hit. Certainly would've made more sense than "You Gotta Have Love", me thinks.
    was just gonna type this. most people tend to think of duets and the people singing to one another. not 2 people sharing leads and singing to the audience. especially for highly romantic songs. Touch re-imagined as a duet with the Tops and Sups. you could still highlight jean and mary, long with Levi and another guy or two. and all 7 voices would have been amazing on the choruses.

    Frank was already doing things for Dynamite at this time. this should have been the anchor tune on that album

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    The original trio's "self" professed personas were that Florence was the quiet one, which I think was given to her in an ironic way, rather than Motown pushing the image of a quiet Florence; Diana's changed from the intelligent one, which I think Motown realized was a mistake, suggesting that she was "smarter" than the other two, and, quite frankly, she surely didn't come across as the "intelligent" one in interviews compared to the other two, so they moved on to the indisputable "skinny one"; and of course Mary was the sexy one.

    I think Mary's persona was justified. She oozed it. I think all three Supremes [[and for that matter all the replacements afterwards) were beautiful women in their own right. We talk a lot about how Motown seemed to luck up on talented women capable of standing at the lead mic as Supremes [[Barbara and Cindy is debatable, I guess), but the Supremes also didn't have any shortage of beauty. All of those ladies were gorgeous, from Barbara to Susaye. But I don't think any of them oozed sexy like Mary Wilson.

    Jim, your description of her voice is spot on. I think her early abilities at ballad singing had a lot to do with what I refer to as a "cry" in Mary's voice, that made her voice perfect for sad songs about a young girl and the boy that got away. [[Mary would have done a far better job of selling "I Want a Guy" and "Who's Lovin You" than Diana did.) As time progressed, and her voice matured and sort of deepened, I think the smokiness of it gave it a sensual feeling that made it perfect for more sexy type songs. When Diana was in the group, they didn't really do that kind of stuff. But the changing times with the entrance of the 70s presented a perfect opportunity for songs like "Touch" and Mary to shine within.

    Maybe Frank heard it as a duet in his head. Maybe he wanted Mary to do the song but worried how Motown might feel about releasing a single [[and I'm guessing Frank started out with the intention that "Touch" would be a single) with just Mary so he brought Jean in on it. Maybe he heard the full Mary lead and decided he didn't like it with just Mary. I wish we knew what the creative process was like for the song. It's just hard for me to fathom that no one thought Mary was enough for this song. I think listeners might have liked it better with just Mary.
    I wonder if the whole "Intelligent one-sexy one-quiet one" was spoofing or inspired by the tags John, Paul and George got from the media for their personas in The Beatles when they first came on the scene? John was considered the "smart one", Paul the "cute one", and George the "quiet one". So Diana was the Supreme equivalent to John Lennon, Mary to Paul McCartney, and Flo to George Harrison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    Yeah it was. Floy Joy didn’t get to the Top 10 Pop. Automatically Sunshine barely scraped the Top 40. YWSSL got to about 60 and IGIMTM made it to about 89. Hits only to Supremes fans. The numbers are from memory.
    No, "Floy Joy" did not hit the top 10 pop; it missed it by a handful of positions. Number 16 is nothing to sneeze at, certainly when the last release missed the top 70 pop and didn't even chart on the R&B chart at all. [["Floy Joy" did go top 5 R&B.) Your position was that "Touch" was the beginning of a downward spiral. I don't understand how it can be considered a downward spiral to go down [["Touch") and up considerably [["Floy Joy"). Musically speaking, "Floy Joy" was a hit whatever way you slice it.

    I could accept the argument that "Automatically" not doing as well or better than "Floy Joy" was the beginning of the end since the singles scored comparatively worse afterwards, but I think "Automatically" showed there was still some real interest in the group and what they were putting out for a song to make it to the top 40 pop and just miss the top 20 r&b with minimal promotion. But I don't think it's a very good debate to suggest that a top 20 pop hit after a number 71 peak position is the start of a downward spiral. Seems like that defies the definition.

    I still say "Automatically Sunshine" was very capable of being maybe even bigger than "Floy Joy". DJs were apparently spinning it on their own, so how much more airplay might it have gotten if the Supremes made some strategic appearances at the time? Who knows. I just don't think "Sweet Love" was much better than it's chart placements, but I do think the right follow up could have been successful. Once "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" hit the streets, I think a lot of people were turned off and it was at that point they never really turned back on again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21 View Post
    I wonder if the whole "Intelligent one-sexy one-quiet one" was spoofing or inspired by the tags John, Paul and George got from the media for their personas in The Beatles when they first came on the scene? John was considered the "smart one", Paul the "cute one", and George the "quiet one". So Diana was the Supreme equivalent to John Lennon, Mary to Paul McCartney, and Flo to George Harrison.
    Could be. I'm not familiar enough with the Beatles to have known this, but your comparison makes a lot of sense. Very interesting.

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    Hi Bayou--yeah, Eddie's album "He's a Friend" had a pic of two guys shaking hands on the cover, and Berry didn't want it released due to the alleged gay overtones. Berry eventually gave up the fight for whatever reason.
    Now, regarding Mary and Jean dueting on Touch--I really doubt most radio programmers even knew Jean and Mary were singing to each other. I was a kid when I first heard Touch, and I couldn't have told you which was Mary or which was Jean on lead. Today I can hear the difference, but I think the average person on the street wouldn't have known the difference.

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    “Touch” is my favorite 70s Supremes song. The album version should’ve been released

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    I would prefer to just hear Jean sing. She brings lyrics to life in a way Mary can’t.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    No, "Floy Joy" did not hit the top 10 pop; it missed it by a handful of positions. Number 16 is nothing to sneeze at, certainly when the last release missed the top 70 pop and didn't even chart on the R&B chart at all. [["Floy Joy" did go top 5 R&B.) Your position was that "Touch" was the beginning of a downward spiral. I don't understand how it can be considered a downward spiral to go down [["Touch") and up considerably [["Floy Joy"). Musically speaking, "Floy Joy" was a hit whatever way you slice it.

    I could accept the argument that "Automatically" not doing as well or better than "Floy Joy" was the beginning of the end since the singles scored comparatively worse afterwards, but I think "Automatically" showed there was still some real interest in the group and what they were putting out for a song to make it to the top 40 pop and just miss the top 20 r&b with minimal promotion. But I don't think it's a very good debate to suggest that a top 20 pop hit after a number 71 peak position is the start of a downward spiral. Seems like that defies the definition.

    I still say "Automatically Sunshine" was very capable of being maybe even bigger than "Floy Joy". DJs were apparently spinning it on their own, so how much more airplay might it have gotten if the Supremes made some strategic appearances at the time? Who knows. I just don't think "Sweet Love" was much better than it's chart placements, but I do think the right follow up could have been successful. Once "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" hit the streets, I think a lot of people were turned off and it was at that point they never really turned back on again.
    i think the chart ranking require perspective. Is #16 bad? no. but for a group with 12 #1s, that's a low ranking. just like how Nothing But Heartaches was a "flop" so to speak. things were also different by the 70s. there was so much more music available. whole new genres had popped up and so with so much more competition, what once might have been considered a good ranking, now meant that most people really weren't that aware of it. also the singles weren't really sticking on the charts as long either.

    i do agree that AS is a stronger song and should have performed better. and also agree that the lack of tv promotion and touring during spring 72 hindered things. but it also was a situation of problems compounding. Ladder was released while the frenzy of the group's splitting was still around. EGTRTL didn't do much but it was still early and the girls were still everywhere on tv and in magazines. SL was huge and should have re-established them at the very top. but the public and the djs just started to drift. the shlock of the duets, NJ which only limped into the top 20 just started to compound on interest waning. people weren't really eagerly anticipating what the group would do next. NJ peaked on the charts in June 71. FJ peaked in March of 72. that's a big gap in time when the act wasn't really on the charts at all, much less in the top 10. so the downward trend started prior to Touch

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I did once opine that "Touch" might have worked better if it had been one of the Supremes and Tops duets. Perhaps Mary and Lawrence could have turned the song into a hit. Certainly would've made more sense than "You Gotta Have Love", me thinks.
    I think Levi Stubbs voice would have worked brilliantly on “Touch” with either Mary or Jean as the female lead. Would probably have needed a tv appearance or two to wet the public’s appetite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i think the chart ranking require perspective. Is #16 bad? no. but for a group with 12 #1s, that's a low ranking. just like how Nothing But Heartaches was a "flop" so to speak. things were also different by the 70s. there was so much more music available. whole new genres had popped up and so with so much more competition, what once might have been considered a good ranking, now meant that most people really weren't that aware of it. also the singles weren't really sticking on the charts as long either.

    i do agree that AS is a stronger song and should have performed better. and also agree that the lack of tv promotion and touring during spring 72 hindered things. but it also was a situation of problems compounding. Ladder was released while the frenzy of the group's splitting was still around. EGTRTL didn't do much but it was still early and the girls were still everywhere on tv and in magazines. SL was huge and should have re-established them at the very top. but the public and the djs just started to drift. the shlock of the duets, NJ which only limped into the top 20 just started to compound on interest waning. people weren't really eagerly anticipating what the group would do next. NJ peaked on the charts in June 71. FJ peaked in March of 72. that's a big gap in time when the act wasn't really on the charts at all, much less in the top 10. so the downward trend started prior to Touch
    This is the kind of general decline that was happening. Floy Joy and High Energy provided a little hope and I think the singles did better in England.

    But the care that was previously taken was gone. Everything from management to appearances to releases to wardrobe just wasn’t the way it was before.

    This may have been the beginning of dissension within the group and there’s nothing to cause a record company to lose interest when you have internal dissension and poor management.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    Yeah it was. Floy Joy didn’t get to the Top 10 Pop. Automatically Sunshine barely scraped the Top 40. YWSSL got to about 60 and IGIMTM made it to about 89. Hits only to Supremes fans. The numbers are from memory.

    And as Mary said, none of the albums sold much - even Right On. They were lucky to sell 250000 copies.

    There was a little glimmer of hope around High Energy but I don’t think there was a willingness to put much emphasis on Susaye Greene and the hope totally fizzled with Mary Scherrie and Susaye.

    It was a disappointing time to be a fan after Touch.
    Yes it was. Mary herself wrote in her book that Berry wanted to take the group back under wing during this period. That would have put Pedro out of work. Yet another bad decision on Mary's part as Motown pulled all promo on MSS

    Also hurting MSS, it was released at the same time Songs In The Key Of Life was coming out. Gordy had sunk a lot of money into Stevie Wonder to get him to re-sign with Motown so all promotion was directed toward this lp. Had Motown issued You're What's Missing In My Life as the second single or even High Energy as a single and kept MSS until early 1977 there may have been a different outcome.

    But I doubt it. When the trio was booed offstage at Madison Square Garden along with the Caesar's Palace debacle, the ladies hung themselves with all the rope Motown allowed them. We all knew it was over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Yes it was. Mary herself wrote in her book that Berry wanted to take the group back under wing during this period. That would have put Pedro out of work. Yet another bad decision on Mary's part as Motown pulled all promo on MSS

    Also hurting MSS, it was released at the same time Songs In The Key Of Life was coming out. Gordy had sunk a lot of money into Stevie Wonder to get him to re-sign with Motown so all promotion was directed toward this lp. Had Motown issued You're What's Missing In My Life as the second single or even High Energy as a single and kept MSS until early 1977 there may have been a different outcome.

    But I doubt it. When the trio was booed offstage at Madison Square Garden along with the Caesar's Palace debacle, the ladies hung themselves with all the rope Motown allowed them. We all knew it was over.
    maybe there might have been some hope with motown managing the group again. perhaps that would have helped prevent those two disasters.

    I have the Caesar show on a bootleg and the ladies sound great. and there are bright points - the applause is very full and strong after Maybe This Time. of course that was an excellent showcase for Scherrie. but yes, the infamous greatest hits medley is an unmitigated disaster. there's this weird "ed sullivan-esque" intro and the medley sort of emphasizes specific songs and lyrics of songs. You keep me HANGIN on, nothing but heartaches I CAN'T BREAK AWAY, love is like and itching TEARING IT ALL APART. without seeing it, i'm assuming they were using these parts of the songs to play up the giant mega dress. just dead silence from the audience.

    MAYBE if they'd done a Hair medley and acknowledged the spoof from the play and then they're spooking it. a small hope that might at least have informed the audience WTF the group was doing. totally agree that by Dec 76 Hair was not something they should be highlighting in the act

    also there are 3 full-length solo numbers, one for each lady. that takes up over 1/3 of the entire show [[since they were doing a shorter set as the opening act). that's waaaaaayyyyyyy too much of the show focusing on solo numbers.

    so maybe motown managing the group could have helped them reinvent the act and refresh things.

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    For STONED LOVE doing as well as it did, was it performed on tv much during the time of its release? All I can think of was on Tom Jones, and on Flip Wilson?

    It was performed several times again much later when Lynda joined, on Soul Train, and on Mike Douglas.

    Would an appearance on Sullivan in 1970 have helped push it to #1?

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    What happened at Caesars Palace?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    For STONED LOVE doing as well as it did, was it performed on tv much during the time of its release? All I can think of was on Tom Jones, and on Flip Wilson?

    It was performed several times again much later when Lynda joined, on Soul Train, and on Mike Douglas.

    Would an appearance on Sullivan in 1970 have helped push it to #1?
    it might have helped but the single did very well on the charts, aside from stalling at 7. IMO the real culprit was the competition with River Deep. SL was released on 10/15entered the charts on 11/7 and River was released on 11/5, entering the charts on 11/28. SL peaked on 12/19 so as River was gaining momentum, SL was peaking. since Bayou explained how Billboard charts were calculated, i think River really did pull some attention away from SL. SL peaked at 7 and sat there 2 weeks. then slipped to 8 were it sat for 3 weeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    What happened at Caesars Palace?
    I only have info from Mary's book and then what a few fans have chimed in about

    the act was booked at Caesar's for Dec 1976. but as the opening act for comedian Alan King. so they only had a short stage time, about 25 mins or so. apparently it was a rather last minute booking but because it was at one of the top hotels on the strip, they took it

    Mary goes on to say that Pedro demanded Motown come up with some money to refresh the act and they finally did. she says Gil worked on the new song arrangements and then George Faison, a broadway choreography, did the new staging. here's info on George: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Faison

    She states that george came up with the idea of the Hair spoof. in the musical hair, there's a segment called Black Boys/White Boys. the Black Boys number is sung by three white women singing things like "black boys are delicious" then 3 black women a la The Supremes sing White Boys "white boys are so pretty..." Apparently in the staging for the sup spoof, it is eventually revealed that the 3 black women are wearing 1 gown.

    so it was a relatively well known spoof in the broadway show about the Supremes. sort of cute and all. Apparently George thought it would be fun for the supremes to spoof hair who had spoofed the Supremes. and to do it during the Greatest Hits segment of the show.

    the problem is that the execution, from what i can tell, was just poorly done. on the bootleg tape, there's an announcer's voice talking about "welcome to our really big Shew! a big big Shew.... here are three little girls from detroit. the Superinos, the super dupers, etc" its sort of a Ed Sullivan spoof on "shew" and how he'd often mess up people's names and all. but what the heck does that have to do with hair!?!?! there was no acknowledgement in the act [[from what i've heard) that references the broadway show. nothing setting up the background for the upcoming spoof. the musical had closed on Broadway in 72 so this wasn't really even a contemporary show. it was pretty out of date by the time disco was around.

    the medley of hits has Baby Love and Where Did our Love Go but the group messes these up. I believe Susaye was singing the lead to WDOLG while S and M are singing the backups for BL. or something like that. it also include YKMHO, NBH, LILAIIMH. and each of those songs contain phrases like "set me free" "you keep me hanging on" "i can't break away" "tearing it all apart"

    i've never seen the gown itself. Brad has joked on here that while he was helping Mary with the dresses for the gown coffee table book, the two of them were struggling to figure out how the hell the dress worked, what went where, etc. he said it's bright red.

    so you end up with a Greatest Hit medley with the girls in this bizarra uni-dress, supposedly spooking an out of date broadway show but with no explanation or info to help audience members make that connection. and then if they were emphasizing those phrases around break away, tearing all apart, set me free, etc, i wonder if they were playing around in the gown, trying to "break away" from each other? i wasn't there so i don't know

    the songs of the show are:

    Everybody gets to go to the moon/corner of the sky
    let yourself go
    hits medley
    maybe this time
    People [[susaye solo)
    what about today [[scherrie solo)
    he's my man
    Song for you/how lucky [[mary solo)
    driving wheel
    let yourself go instrumental reprise/exit

    I'm wondering if this was when they introduced Moon/corner of sky for the opening number. in the Aug 76 vids of them at Roostertail in detroit, they're still using We've Only Just Begun/Tonight as the opener. also in the past mary had her spotlight solo but no one for S and S. Susaye might have done He Ain't Heavy but with M and S doing backups. here each lady is unaccompanied. similar to the farewell bootleg we have. also they would have recently added LYG and Wheel. so it is a relatively new act. but a poor act IMO

    also in mary's book, she mentions that turmoil was among the highest. Ted harris, the conductor, was mad they brought in someone else to do the charts, apparently S and S had complained to motown about the poor management of Pedro and mary and there was some big meeting in LA at the motown offices. don't know if this is true but a fan also mentioned that they had the tuxes [[the ones from Udo Live) made for this appearance along with the mega-dress. but they went with a costumer in Vegas and not Pat Compano who had been contracted to do their previous gowns since scherrie joined.

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    Sup_fan, thanks so much for explaining. That’s not bad, I thought it was something much worse. Sometimes things work and sometimes they don’t. Honestly out of everything you said, I was more embarrassed for them being the opening act for a comedian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    I only have info from Mary's book and then what a few fans have chimed in about

    the act was booked at Caesar's for Dec 1976. but as the opening act for comedian Alan King. so they only had a short stage time, about 25 mins or so. apparently it was a rather last minute booking but because it was at one of the top hotels on the strip, they took it

    Mary goes on to say that Pedro demanded Motown come up with some money to refresh the act and they finally did. she says Gil worked on the new song arrangements and then George Faison, a broadway choreography, did the new staging. here's info on George: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Faison

    She states that george came up with the idea of the Hair spoof. in the musical hair, there's a segment called Black Boys/White Boys. the Black Boys number is sung by three white women singing things like "black boys are delicious" then 3 black women a la The Supremes sing White Boys "white boys are so pretty..." Apparently in the staging for the sup spoof, it is eventually revealed that the 3 black women are wearing 1 gown.

    so it was a relatively well known spoof in the broadway show about the Supremes. sort of cute and all. Apparently George thought it would be fun for the supremes to spoof hair who had spoofed the Supremes. and to do it during the Greatest Hits segment of the show.

    the problem is that the execution, from what i can tell, was just poorly done. on the bootleg tape, there's an announcer's voice talking about "welcome to our really big Shew! a big big Shew.... here are three little girls from detroit. the Superinos, the super dupers, etc" its sort of a Ed Sullivan spoof on "shew" and how he'd often mess up people's names and all. but what the heck does that have to do with hair!?!?! there was no acknowledgement in the act [[from what i've heard) that references the broadway show. nothing setting up the background for the upcoming spoof. the musical had closed on Broadway in 72 so this wasn't really even a contemporary show. it was pretty out of date by the time disco was around.

    the medley of hits has Baby Love and Where Did our Love Go but the group messes these up. I believe Susaye was singing the lead to WDOLG while S and M are singing the backups for BL. or something like that. it also include YKMHO, NBH, LILAIIMH. and each of those songs contain phrases like "set me free" "you keep me hanging on" "i can't break away" "tearing it all apart"

    i've never seen the gown itself. Brad has joked on here that while he was helping Mary with the dresses for the gown coffee table book, the two of them were struggling to figure out how the hell the dress worked, what went where, etc. he said it's bright red.

    so you end up with a Greatest Hit medley with the girls in this bizarra uni-dress, supposedly spooking an out of date broadway show but with no explanation or info to help audience members make that connection. and then if they were emphasizing those phrases around break away, tearing all apart, set me free, etc, i wonder if they were playing around in the gown, trying to "break away" from each other? i wasn't there so i don't know...
    Mary also wrote that after the medley was finished, the girls couldn't get out of the big dress before the lights came back up.
    Last edited by reese; 01-31-2023 at 09:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Mary also wrote that after the medley was finished, the girls couldn't get out of the big dress before the lights came back up.
    Perhaps they should have made that part of a comedy routine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    Sup_fan, thanks so much for explaining. That’s not bad, I thought it was something much worse. Sometimes things work and sometimes they don’t. Honestly out of everything you said, I was more embarrassed for them being the opening act for a comedian.
    the show though was cut short. Alan was sick with a cold and the Sups were clearly not bringing in any audiences. i haven't heard specifically if there were reviews out there blasting the group. mary says at the cast party after opening, motown execs were there along with other stars and, even though no one said anything bad, she could tell everyone thought the show and act was terrible. so the fan and audience reaction was very poor

    and then just a couple months later you have the girls boo'd off the stage at Madison Square Garden. so two big double whammies in a short time

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    I’ve listened to this song several times but I can never really remember it very well. It’s nice but I’m not sure it’s single material, especially compared to "Nathan Jones".

    Need to check out the Renee Geyee version!

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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    I would prefer to just hear Jean sing. She brings lyrics to life in a way Mary can’t.
    I was never much of a fan of Mary's voice, but i do think she was well suited to this type of song, but no way was this ever going to be a major hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    the show though was cut short. Alan was sick with a cold and the Sups were clearly not bringing in any audiences. i haven't heard specifically if there were reviews out there blasting the group. mary says at the cast party after opening, motown execs were there along with other stars and, even though no one said anything bad, she could tell everyone thought the show and act was terrible. so the fan and audience reaction was very poor

    and then just a couple months later you have the girls boo'd off the stage at Madison Square Garden. so two big double whammies in a short time
    I saw the MSS line up live and they were awful. There was such a lot of talent there but the show itself was one hot mess. It was rushed, it was frantic and it quite frankly made my ears bleed. it looked and sounded like three lead singers fighting to be top dog and none of them succeeding. It could and should have been a great show. They sounded great on record, but the live act lacked class quality, style and sophistication. I was with my future wife and i told her this group would be History within 12 months, and sadly i was correct. This act suffered from bad management. They should have let Berry take over the management of the group when he offered to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    I saw the MSS line up live and they were awful. There was such a lot of talent there but the show itself was one hot mess. It was rushed, it was frantic and it quite frankly made my ears bleed. it looked and sounded like three lead singers fighting to be top dog and none of them succeeding. It could and should have been a great show. They sounded great on record, but the live act lacked class quality, style and sophistication. I was with my future wife and i told her this group would be History within 12 months, and sadly i was correct. This act suffered from bad management. They should have let Berry take over the management of the group when he offered to.
    I wonder when those MSS shows were in rehearsal if the ladies, with the director present, kept their vocals under control and didn't try to outsing each other?

    Another question about those MSS shows--when they were being assembled, what was going through their minds? Did they think there was a big audience for rushed hit medleys in a unidress spoofing Hair, and scarf dances to the title track of High Energy?

    The MSS live era could definitely be considered the Spinal Tap phase of the group

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    one issue is mic levels. this is sort of the opposite of the DRATS era. back then M and C were turned down so low is was almost comical. now everyone was turned up so high. Mary was doing all of the speaking and about half of the leads. but scherrie was also doing leads. and then susaye too. but there wasn't a "lead" mic. when mary did a lead in the DRATS era, she moved over to Diana's mic and D slipped back to mary's. but in a song like Corner of the Sky, the girls trade lead lines throughout.

    and on the song LYG, there are great studio echo effects on the vocals, especially when they sing "go" in the chorus. i guess they were attempting to replication this is some way for the live version so they're all just shouting out various "go go go go!"

    and in Walking, on the studio version they had everyone singing backing vocals so there are 3 singers. so they were able to have mary do the octave below and S and C doing the upper vocal. but live is only 2 yet mary and susaye still split the octaves. they should have just sung it unison.

    without a choir, you can't replicate all of the layered vocals and studio tricks. so best to just simplify things for the live versions

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