If My Friends could see me Now JMC Sullivan show medley

[Spreadinglove21]

Should this have the number JMC did when they debut on Sullivan [[along with Up the Ladder)? Or should they have sung something else?

[captainjames]

To me it was a good way to show they were still versatile.

[TheMotownManiac]

Should this have the number JMC did when they debut on Sullivan [[along with Up the Ladder)? Or should they have sung something else?

to the millions and millions of people who were looking forward to seeing the new supreme, I cannot imagine a better debut. Visually, they were exquisite. The medley was topical, brilliantly arranged and performed to perfection. It showcased Jean and gave a great representation of the new look and sound of the group. It was then followed by wet most of us have Agreed was the quintessential first single. I repeat, I absolutely cannot imagine a better introduction than that first medley.

[Ollie9]

This type of white bread medley is probably the worst thing they could have chosen, being something DR&TS would have performed Circa 67/8.
They needed to establish themselves as a new group with a new soulful sound. Supper club audiences were never going to buy their records.
Another track from “Right On” would have served them much better.

[sup_fan]

for a debut on a show like Sullivan, this was a perfect medley. the lyrics are just ideal for the situation. If they could see me now was from Sweet Charity which had just been released as a motion pic the year prior. and Nothing is from Roar of the Greasepaint which was a big broadway show a few years prior. so both songs were well known to the general public.

their outfits weren't exactly my favorite but they were very eye catching. the set was evocative. I thought the choreography was a bit over the top but hey - they were looking to Wow people. It might have been nice to have Jean spot lighted a bit more. maybe give her a little more room to sing and "soul." show off her pipes a little more.

[danman869]

I think it really was a smart choice in many ways:

1. Jean gets to sing a "solo" [of sorts] at the beginning so that people can focus on her, the new lead singer, and hear what she sounds like.

2. Their new pantsuits are fresh and stylish. Sure, DMC had worn pantsuits before, but... these were new for JMC and that ruby red color looked great on camera.

3. The lyrics, as was said, were perfect to express what the "NEW" Supremes were going to do going forward [hey, every group should have hope!]. From Jean, alone, singing how if her friends could see where she had ended up [SHE'S THE LEAD SINGER OF THE SUPREMES!] and then they segue into telling the audience how "nothing will stop us now!" I mean, for the high-profile television debut of a top group with a new lead singer, someone was THINKING very smartly when they chose to make a medley of these two songs. Added to that, the girls do a lot of singing in unison and occasionally breaking off into harmony. It's a way to show the audience that this group is not the same as DRATS. They all sing and, boy, do they sound good together!

4. Their choreography is terrific! DRATS were always good dancers as a unit and certainly could have handled this same routine had it somehow been used by them, but... you see Jean, Mary, and Cindy dancing together and you can see that they worked HARD to keep it tight. Visually, they looked REALLY GOOD doing this number together!

5. Although I respect that Ollie9 feels they should have sung another song from the Right On LP and I can appreciate the idea of doing something that group usually never did--promoting their [new] album--with the album not scheduled for release until April 1970, any song they may have done from it would've probably gotten a fairly tepid response. [And I think from that point on, YES--the group should have always gone on TV and performed their latest single and a song from their latest album, but... this was performance had The "New" Supremes starting from square one in a way. What would they do? Well, the group had been known for perfoming standards and Broadway songs in their appearances, so by having this new grouping with new lead singer Jean doing a medley of fairly recent Broadway songs was a good reassurance for any folks who might have thought, "what could they possibly do without Diana Ross?" Well, they could do just what they'd always done: sing a song well and put their own stamp on it.

Lastly, I have to respectfully disagree with Sup_Fan about giving Jean more of a spotlight in this appearance. That, in my opinion, would've been the wrong move. No offense intended in saying this, but they'd just come off 2+ years of Diana being front-and-center and "the other two" being off to the side. If they'd had Jean featured more, it could've come off as a bit of a DRATS-redux. Also, I think they needed to win over the general public who were watching "Ed Sullivan" [and by 1970, those numbers were dropping] and Jean "souling" might have been too much of a risk. Come see them in concert and Jean could [and did] soul all she wanted, I'm sure. But... first they needed to "say hello" to the public and show that they were just as good [better?] than what you got from the Supremes before. I think they gave Jean enough spotlight at the beginning and, well, it was safe. I think in relaunching the group, they were smart to play it a little safe.

[RanRan79]

I agree with Dan 1000 percent. Spot on take my friend.

[RanRan79]

Does anyone know if the entirety of "Friends" was in the act? I love the bit that Jean does here and would love to have heard her do the song in it's entirety.

[Ollie9]

I think it really was a smart choice in many ways:

1. Jean gets to sing a "solo" [of sorts] at the beginning so that people can focus on her, the new lead singer, and hear what she sounds like.

2. Their new pantsuits are fresh and stylish. Sure, DMC had worn pantsuits before, but... these were new for JMC and that ruby red color looked great on camera.

3. The lyrics, as was said, were perfect to express what the "NEW" Supremes were going to do going forward [hey, every group should have hope!]. From Jean, alone, singing how if her friends could see where she had ended up [SHE'S THE LEAD SINGER OF THE SUPREMES!] and then they segue into telling the audience how "nothing will stop us now!" I mean, for the high-profile television debut of a top group with a new lead singer, someone was THINKING very smartly when they chose to make a medley of these two songs. Added to that, the girls do a lot of singing in unison and occasionally breaking off into harmony. It's a way to show the audience that this group is not the same as DRATS. They all sing and, boy, do they sound good together!

4. Their choreography is terrific! DRATS were always good dancers as a unit and certainly could have handled this same routine had it somehow been used by them, but... you see Jean, Mary, and Cindy dancing together and you can see that they worked HARD to keep it tight. Visually, they looked REALLY GOOD doing this number together!

5. Although I respect that Ollie9 feels they should have sung another song from the Right On LP and I can appreciate the idea of doing something that group usually never did--promoting their [new] album--with the album not scheduled for release until April 1970, any song they may have done from it would've probably gotten a fairly tepid response. [And I think from that point on, YES--the group should have always gone on TV and performed their latest single and a song from their latest album, but... this was performance had The "New" Supremes starting from square one in a way. What would they do? Well, the group had been known for perfoming standards and Broadway songs in their appearances, so by having this new grouping with new lead singer Jean doing a medley of fairly recent Broadway songs was a good reassurance for any folks who might have thought, "what could they possibly do without Diana Ross?" Well, they could do just what they'd always done: sing a song well and put their own stamp on it.

Lastly, I have to respectfully disagree with Sup_Fan about giving Jean more of a spotlight in this appearance. That, in my opinion, would've been the wrong move. No offense intended in saying this, but they'd just come off 2+ years of Diana being front-and-center and "the other two" being off to the side. If they'd had Jean featured more, it could've come off as a bit of a DRATS-redux. Also, I think they needed to win over the general public who were watching "Ed Sullivan" [and by 1970, those numbers were dropping] and Jean "souling" might have been too much of a risk. Come see them in concert and Jean could [and did] soul all she wanted, I'm sure. But... first they needed to "say hello" to the public and show that they were just as good [better?] than what you got from the Supremes before. I think they gave Jean enough spotlight at the beginning and, well, it was safe. I think in relaunching the group, they were smart to play it a little safe.

Good post dan.

[mowest]

Great analysis danman869. The performance couldn’t have been better. Just listen to the audience’s response at the end!

[danman869]

Great analysis danman869. The performance couldn’t have been better. Just listen to the audience’s response at the end!

Thank you Mowest [[and RanRan and Ollie!)!

That was another thing I'd forgotten to mention. There seems to be real CHEERING at the end of the performance [[and they hadn't even done their new record yet), so I'd say the audience was like, "WOW!" I'd even venture to say they might have even thought, "I hadn't expected it to be THAT good!" It was a success for the group, to be sure.

[sup_fan]

yes i believe they kept this medley, for a little while, in the act. the reviews from the Fairmont in Dallas mention it

and i agree with Dan's assessment. spot on. although i'll discuss my idea of Jean spotlight a little more. i completely agree with the idea that the "new supremes" were going to be a new type of Sups. not DR with two girls WAY WAY back behind her just doing occasional Oooos and Ahhhs. and i also agree they had to be careful not to have Jean be too soulful

i think maybe giving her just a line or two, here and there, and allowing a little bit of vocal ad libs or embellishments. just to show the public and the fans - "wow we have a great singer here" the intro you mention just couldn't be more perfect. with Jean singing about her friend and here little face twist on "they'd never believe it" is just priceless and so endearing.

[Spreadinglove21]

I largely agree with Dan. This and Up the Ladder were a great way to introduce the new Supremes. This medley, like the other Sullivan show tune performances the Supremes did in the 60s, was a fine way to advertise the nightclub/supper club/show room live show act. Occasionally the arrangement and performance of this medley gets a bit corny, but it accomplishes what it sets out to do.

How long did this medley stay in their live show? Seems like it would work as a great opening number. And I think Jean is spotlighted just enough in the medley but at the same time getting the point across this is a group and though they may be seen as underdogs they have the goods, talent wise, to deliver a fine show and fine records.

[Ollie9]

I largely agree with Dan. This and Up the Ladder were a great way to introduce the new Supremes. This medley, like the other Sullivan show tune performances the Supremes did in the 60s, was a fine way to advertise the nightclub/supper club/show room live show act. Occasionally the arrangement and performance of this medley gets a bit corny, but it accomplishes what it sets out to do.

How long did this medley stay in their live show? Seems like it would work as a great opening number. And I think Jean is spotlighted just enough in the medley but at the same time getting the point across this is a group and though they may be seen as underdogs they have the goods, talent wise, to deliver a fine show and fine records.

As regards show tune medleys, i really think this should have been a one off. Sure it was a crowd pleaser at the time, but they needed to make clear this was a new grouping and not a continuation of DR&TS.
Its no real surprise that a year later many were still asking which one is Diana?.

[RanRan79]

As regards show tune medleys, i really think this should have been a one off. Sure it was a crowd pleaser at the time, but they needed to make clear this was a new grouping and not a continuation of DR&TS.
Its no real surprise that a year later many were still asking which one is Diana?.

While I think showtunes should have been limited and an emphasis placed on the music of their catalog, past and present, those kinds of songs were still being performed by relevant artists all the time. A lot of what DRATS did was use those type of songs to showcase their versatility, and they often used traditional and Vegasy type of arrangements when doing it, which would appeal to a certain demographic. IMO, what the Supremes did with this medley on Sullivan is bridge the gap between choosing a medley that DRATS might have done and making it very much the New Supremes. It sounds hip and fresh, especially "Nothing Can Stop Us Now", which has some hints of the Motown Sound beat.

There was always a way to take those songs and give them something new, to fit the changing times. The problem is that when the Jean groupings reverted back to doing a lot of this stuff, they just resurrected DRATS arrangements, which were outdated and should have been out of the question for a group still in prime hit making years. It really was a mind boggling decision to return to that format when they did around the time Lynda came. Nobody wanted it. Even the supper club crowd was different than it had been in the 60s. The group started off so strong and then started shooting itself in the foot. The group gets some blame, but so does Motown, who could have intervened.

Motown: Why are you ladies doing this old DRATS stuff?

Mary: Not enough money. We're having to use what we already have.

Motown: Well this is unacceptable. We'll make sure you have what you need to put together a damn good show to promote the albums we release on you so we can get our money back.

Mary: Works for me.

Could it have been that simple?

[BayouMotownMan]

You guys don't remember the predicament Motown and the Supremes were in at that time. The group had to LOOK like the Supremes but not like Diana Ross & The Supremes. I think we had all forgotten just what the Supremes looked like. Jean recorded enough material for three lps during this period, some with Mary and Cindy, most without, looking for the perfect first single. Again, it had to SOUND like the Supremes on the radio, but not like Diana Ross & The Supremes. These were fine lines to cross. It was just such a delicate situation.

Motown and Gordy, who was involved in the preparation of the new group, went back and forth on a first single. First it was Life Beats, then Bill, When Are You Coming Back. The company had finally settled on Bill when Frank Wilson brought in Up The Ladder. Remember, I think the date of this appearance was Feb. 15. Ladder was completed just days before. It's amazing the ladies, especially Jean, held up under the constant turmoil.

I think the medley was perfect. The Supremes had made a TV niche for themselves in doing standards as well as their Motown music. As far as the medley being "white-bread," it constantly amazes me how music can somehow get a racial intonation. It's not like other African-American singers weren't doing this kind of material. Even Aretha was doing Skylark.

To show you the impact of this debut, I was 14 yrs old. I shared this story with Jean. Once Diana was out of the group I had no interest in a new Supremes grouping. I just happened to be watching Ed Sullivan on this night when Arte Johnson came on at the beginning of the show with Sullivan to introduce tonights acts which were called The New Supremes. I was doing my algebra and only mildly paying attention but figured I'd watch. I was a huge Diana Ross fan and just figured I'd see how her old friends were faring.

They did the medley. I was a little impressed. I figured ok, the new chick is pretty and she can sing, I figured that. Then when they did Up The Ladder, I was mesmerized. That voice!. When the song ended and the rapturous applause ensued, I just looked at the screen and thought "Diana WHO?" I became a die hard Jean Terrell fan that night.

And yes I do agree that Motown saddled them with far too much fluffy non-hit numbers which did a lot to undermine future success.

[sup_fan]

You guys don't remember the predicament Motown and the Supremes were in at that time. The group had to LOOK like the Supremes but not like Diana Ross & The Supremes. I think we had all forgotten just what the Supremes looked like. Jean recorded enough material for three lps during this period, some with Mary and Cindy, most without, looking for the perfect first single. Again, it had to SOUND like the Supremes on the radio, but not like Diana Ross & The Supremes. These were fine lines to cross. It was just such a delicate situation.

Motown and Gordy, who was involved in the preparation of the new group, went back and forth on a first single. First it was Life Beats, then Bill, When Are You Coming Back. The company had finally settled on Bill when Frank Wilson brought in Up The Ladder. Remember, I think the date of this appearance was Feb. 15. Ladder was completed just days before. It's amazing the ladies, especially Jean, held up under the constant turmoil.

I think the medley was perfect. The Supremes had made a TV niche for themselves in doing standards as well as their Motown music. As far as the medley being "white-bread," it constantly amazes me how music can somehow get a racial intonation. It's not like other African-American singers weren't doing this kind of material. Even Aretha was doing Skylark.

To show you the impact of this debut, I was 14 yrs old. I shared this story with Jean. Once Diana was out of the group I had no interest in a new Supremes grouping. I just happened to be watching Ed Sullivan on this night when Arte Johnson came on at the beginning of the show with Sullivan to introduce tonights acts which were called The New Supremes. I was doing my algebra and only mildly paying attention but figured I'd watch. I was a huge Diana Ross fan and just figured I'd see how her old friends were faring.

They did the medley. I was a little impressed. I figured ok, the new chick is pretty and she can sing, I figured that. Then when they did Up The Ladder, I was mesmerized. That voice!. When the song ended and the rapturous applause ensued, I just looked at the screen and thought "Diana WHO?" I became a die hard Jean Terrell fan that night.

And yes I do agree that Motown saddled them with far too much fluffy non-hit numbers which did a lot to undermine future success.

great memories there Bayou

also i think this is a testament to the company's initial support for the group. I don't buy into the theory that motown actively worked to sabotage the Supremes after Diana left. it was 100% a given though that most of Berry's time would be spent with Diana. still i think for the first few years, the intention was to have the group succeed. did they always make the right decision - no. but it's not like the execs were sitting there like Soloman Grundy and plotting nefarious schemes to prevent their success.

with so much as stake, while chaotic, they did the right thing and pushed for excellence. Life Beats is a cool song but has nowhere near the excitement of Ladder. coming up with a perfect appearance on Sullivan. bringing together the top writers and producers to deliver Right On.

[Ollie9]

While I think showtunes should have been limited and an emphasis placed on the music of their catalog, past and present, those kinds of songs were still being performed by relevant artists all the time. A lot of what DRATS did was use those type of songs to showcase their versatility, and they often used traditional and Vegasy type of arrangements when doing it, which would appeal to a certain demographic. IMO, what the Supremes did with this medley on Sullivan is bridge the gap between choosing a medley that DRATS might have done and making it very much the New Supremes. It sounds hip and fresh, especially "Nothing Can Stop Us Now", which has some hints of the Motown Sound beat.

There was always a way to take those songs and give them something new, to fit the changing times. The problem is that when the Jean groupings reverted back to doing a lot of this stuff, they just resurrected DRATS arrangements, which were outdated and should have been out of the question for a group still in prime hit making years. It really was a mind boggling decision to return to that format when they did around the time Lynda came. Nobody wanted it. Even the supper club crowd was different than it had been in the 60s. The group started off so strong and then started shooting itself in the foot. The group gets some blame, but so does Motown, who could have intervened.

Motown: Why are you ladies doing this old DRATS stuff?

Mary: Not enough money. We're having to use what we already have.

Motown: Well this is unacceptable. We'll make sure you have what you need to put together a damn good show to promote the albums we release on you so we can get our money back.

Mary: Works for me.

Could it have been that simple?

I very much doubt it lol. Diana Ross was a natural for those show tune/tribute medleys. They were standouts due to the theatrical side of her stage persona that really acted and sold those type of songs.
Jean does a fine job here, but it’s nowhere near as convincing as a Diana Ross. After this performance, i think all such medleys should have been scrapped while concentrating on the natural and earthy element that Jean brought to the group. Less sequins more organic.
Like Flo, Jean was never crazy about performing such songs so why not move the group on to something a better fit for the new front woman.

[sup_fan]

I very much doubt it lol. Diana Ross was a natural for those show tune/tribute medleys. They were standouts due to the theatrical side of her stage persona that really acted and sold those type of songs.
Jean does a fine job here, but it’s nowhere near as convincing as a Diana Ross. After this performance, i think all such medleys should have been scrapped while concentrating on the natural and earthy element that Jean brought to the group. Less sequins more organic.
Like Flo, Jean was never crazy about performing such songs so why not move the group on to something a better fit for the new front woman.

i agree with much of your comment but perhaps for different reasons. I don't personally know if Jean really had a problem with the show tunes and MOR stuff in general, i've certainly heard that she was upset and so many "other" tunes being in the act while her hits were reduced to a medley.

and as for the Diana comparison, frankly no one could match her. it wasn't just her theatricality but her whole galvanizing stage persona. whether she was singing a country/western tune, a broadway medley, sly and the family stone or Hey jude, Diana always gave an amazing performance. none of the other supremes could come close.

as for this medley, i think, especially in the opening, Jean really does insert a lot of personality and theatrics. i don't think it comes across as forced or fake. and it works because of the lyrics about if her friends could see where she is now, wouldn't they be surprised. the rest of the medley is more just happy and excited

now with your point about how they should have evolved, totally agree. jean did have a different personality and it IMO was perfect for the times. a more earthy and natural style as you said. and as Bayou mentioned, even Aretha did show tunes and all. I think they could have kept a little of this in the act, but given things more of a "jean approach" in terms of the style, arrangement, etc.

in the live act they did more of a gospel/revival approach with the ending using songs like O happy day and others. too bad they didn't include their own Thank Him For Today. same with their opening medley of Brother Love. sure that song works and Jean sings the hell out of it. but Loving Country and Together We can Make [[which were short snippets in the medley) would have worked just fine as a medley without the other. or at least make them the center of the medley and just do snippets of other tunes like Brother.

[BayouMotownMan]

Well I am in the group of fans who could have done without the non-hit songs in the shows that all groupings of Supremes performed.

As a high school graduation present my mother flew me to Magic Mt in California, August 1973 to see my favorite group, Jean, Mary and Lynda...the Supremes. They were excellent as anticipated, especially Jean. But I was a little aggravated that my favorite songs of theirs were rushed through in a quick medley and I had to sit through 10 minutes of Tossin' and Turnin.' The only Supremes hits done in their entirety was Stoned Love and Bad Weather. If I had wanted to hear Tossin' I'd have pulled out the original 45 rpm. In fact, that may have been the only show where the Supremes performed NO Diana Ross hits at all in the whole show. Jean had lobbied for that for some time and since this was her last performance with the group they gave it to her.

[Ollie9]

i agree with much of your comment but perhaps for different reasons. I don't personally know if Jean really had a problem with the show tunes and MOR stuff in general, i've certainly heard that she was upset and so many "other" tunes being in the act while her hits were reduced to a medley.

and as for the Diana comparison, frankly no one could match her. it wasn't just her theatricality but her whole galvanizing stage persona. whether she was singing a country/western tune, a broadway medley, sly and the family stone or Hey jude, Diana always gave an amazing performance. none of the other supremes could come close.

as for this medley, i think, especially in the opening, Jean really does insert a lot of personality and theatrics. i don't think it comes across as forced or fake. and it works because of the lyrics about if her friends could see where she is now, wouldn't they be surprised. the rest of the medley is more just happy and excited

now with your point about how they should have evolved, totally agree. jean did have a different personality and it IMO was perfect for the times. a more earthy and natural style as you said. and as Bayou mentioned, even Aretha did show tunes and all. I think they could have kept a little of this in the act, but given things more of a "jean approach" in terms of the style, arrangement, etc.

in the live act they did more of a gospel/revival approach with the ending using songs like O happy day and others. too bad they didn't include their own Thank Him For Today. same with their opening medley of Brother Love. sure that song works and Jean sings the hell out of it. but Loving Country and Together We can Make [[which were short snippets in the medley) would have worked just fine as a medley without the other. or at least make them the center of the medley and just do snippets of other tunes like Brother.

‘Tis true other R &B artists such as Aretha were incorporating popular show tunes into their acts at the time. The difference here being that unlike the Supremes, they didn’t have a certain M’s Diana Ross as their former lead singer casting a very long shadow.
Absolutely they needed to build an act around jeans more soulful, earthy vocals by concentrating more on their own material which was pretty good stuff.
I know I’m in the minority, but why not start from the very beginning, consigning sequins to the lock up trunk.

[marybrewster]

and as for the Diana comparison, frankly no one could match her. it wasn't just her theatricality but her whole galvanizing stage persona. whether she was singing a country/western tune, a broadway medley, sly and the family stone or Hey jude, Diana always gave an amazing performance. none of the other supremes could come close.

None of the other Supremes could come close, but did they have the opportunity to? By 1966, it wasn't like in the early days when it was three girls surrounding one microphone. Diana was always afforded that little bit extra: just a little bit in front of Flo, Mary, or Cindy. Wearing a different color dress. Hair just a bit bigger. Earrings just a little more sparkling. Freedom to ditch the routine.

Cindy might have been on fire and Mary might have been doing backflips, but Diana was always positioned in front, to be the focus; to be the star.

[marybrewster]

Jean was a Catch 22.

The audience came to see "The Supremes". They wanted "Love Child" and "Baby Love".

Miserably, Jean obliged, but made them her own, sometimes completely unrecognizable.

She couldn't win, but she was no dummy, and had to know exactly what she was getting into when she joined the group.

[reese]

I think its easy to forget how different recording careers were back then. Today artists go years without a record release or tv appearance. They have time to sit and strategize on how they are going to return to the public.

But that wasn't the case with Motown, Diana, and the Supremes. They were releasing recordings year round. When you think of just how much happened in 1969 alone, it is amazing. Berry happens to wander into a Miami showroom and becomes transfixed by Jean's voice. Within months, she is under contract, recording, designated as Diana's replacement, and rehearsing with Mary and Cindy.

Meanwhile, Motown is trying to get Diana's solo career off the ground so she's recording, and probably rehearsing her upcoming solo act. In the meantime, the group is still recording, doing tv, and personal appearances. I'm surprised there wasn't some major exhaustion going on.

I can see why that first Sullivan appearance [and subsequent spots like Andy Williams and Flip Wilson] was done the way it was: do a medley of standards and debut the new release. The group was still going to be working the Vegas/Fairmont/Copa circuit so they had to maintain that appeal. And yet, they also had to display the talents of the new lead and hopefully help Jean carve out own niche but still get a hit with the record buyer who could have cared less about the nightclub circuit. Quite a tall order, IMO.

[BobbyC]

The only version of this song I ever heard until now was Linda Clifford's--she did a thunderous disco take on If My Friends Could See Me Now! I loved that, it was one of the few high quality disco tunes out there at the time, and it rocked. But the Supreme's version? Sorry, but too hokey for me. i don't like it.

[sup_fan]

I think its easy to forget how different recording careers were back then. Today artists go years without a record release or tv appearance. They have time to sit and strategize on how they are going to return to the public.

But that wasn't the case with Motown, Diana, and the Supremes. They were releasing recordings year round. When you think of just how much happened in 1969 alone, it is amazing. Berry happens to wander into a Miami showroom and becomes transfixed by Jean's voice. Within months, she is under contract, recording, designated as Diana's replacement, and rehearsing with Mary and Cindy.

Meanwhile, Motown is trying to get Diana's solo career off the ground so she's recording, and probably rehearsing her upcoming solo act. In the meantime, the group is still recording, doing tv, and personal appearances. I'm surprised there wasn't some major exhaustion going on.

I can see why that first Sullivan appearance [and subsequent spots like Andy Williams and Flip Wilson] was done the way it was: do a medley of standards and debut the new release. The group was still going to be working the Vegas/Fairmont/Copa circuit so they had to maintain that appeal. And yet, they also had to display the talents of the new lead and hopefully help Jean carve out own niche but still get a hit with the record buyer who could have cared less about the nightclub circuit. Quite a tall order, IMO.

and they couldn't simply just make a 180-degree turn and come out with something totally and radically different for the Sups. they had to ease into the evolution of the group.

i think their overall 1970 approach to the group was fine - RO was a great album, their initial tv appearances were great, the updated show gave them a lift. but as you said, it was nonstop. and that also means you have to be nonstop with updating and refreshing your image. if they had 1) skipped the duets and 2) made some general revisions to NW such as the improved cover art and title, i think things could have been even better.

then as they entered 1971, they could continue to evolve. start pulling back some on the MOR stuff unless they were at Vegas or Copa, do more of their own material, keep going with more fringe outfits, sexy minidresses like the white central Park ones, moving on from the cutesy giggly girl image.

[Ollie9]

and they couldn't simply just make a 180-degree turn and come out with something totally and radically different for the Sups. they had to ease into the evolution of the group.

I tend to disagree. I think a radical and totally different presentation would have generated much more publicity and interest in the group then keeping things similar to as they were. It would also have emphasised that Diana had indeed truly departed.
I think the public would have been intrigued as opposed to being put off.
Keep a few show tunes for the Copa/Grand Hotel audiences while otherwise turning up the soulfil sass.

[sup_fan]

I tend to disagree. I think a radical and totally different presentation would have generated much more publicity and interest in the group then keeping things similar to as they were. It would also have emphasised that Diana had indeed truly departed.
I think the public would have been intrigued as opposed to being put off.
Keep a few show tunes for the Copa/Grand Hotel audiences while otherwise turning up the soulfil sass.

i just think they didn't want to alienate their existing core fans. as Bayou mentioned, a lot of the fans were sort of naturally gravitating to Diana. many might have been torn as to which to follow. to make to big of a change might have pushed a lot away. but i do get your point. they made a radical decision with the cover art for diana's debut lp. that was a wildly different pic than anything we'd seen before.

I think the soulfulness of the tunes on RO and the renewed emphasis on the group's vocals helped considerably. and i think the afro look on an album entitled "Stone Love" would have been amazing. my guess is internal folk found it potentially too radical. but i don't think it would have been. and to your point it would be generated tons of buzz

plus i think the girls needed to get a bit sexier with their look. at times they did - the mini dresses from Central Park and on Flip doing YWSSL, the hot pants on the intro to flip that had the lace-up sandals and halter tops. I think the FJ album cover and the outfits were sensational.

[Ollie9]

i just think they didn't want to alienate their existing core fans. as Bayou mentioned, a lot of the fans were sort of naturally gravitating to Diana. many might have been torn as to which to follow. to make to big of a change might have pushed a lot away. but i do get your point. they made a radical decision with the cover art for diana's debut lp. that was a wildly different pic than anything we'd seen before.

I think the soulfulness of the tunes on RO and the renewed emphasis on the group's vocals helped considerably. and i think the afro look on an album entitled "Stone Love" would have been amazing. my guess is internal folk found it potentially too radical. but i don't think it would have been. and to your point it would be generated tons of buzz

plus i think the girls needed to get a bit sexier with their look. at times they did - the mini dresses from Central Park and on Flip doing YWSSL, the hot pants on the intro to flip that had the lace-up sandals and halter tops. I think the FJ album cover and the outfits were sensational.

I definitely agree regarding a sexier image. These women were still in their 20’s after all.
The red pantsuits they wore for “Up The Ladder” are actually one of my least favourite outfits, thinking they make all three women look larger then they actually were.
I would have loved to have seen them making a statement by wearing something similar to what they wore while performing “YWSSL” on the Flip show or at least something younger looking.
Perhaps a Love Child kind of presentation with scant makeup and afros might have worked well.
The Floy Joy image and content was the way to go.

[sup_fan]

I definitely agree regarding a sexier image. These women were still in their 20’s after all.
The red pantsuits they wore for “Up The Ladder” are actually one of my least favourite outfits, thinking they make all three women look larger then they actually were.
I would have loved to have seen them making a statement by wearing something similar to what they wore while performing “YWSSL” on the Flip show or at least something younger looking.
Perhaps a Love Child kind of presentation with scant makeup and afros might have worked well.
The Floy Joy image and content was the way to go.

Yeah some of the outfits just didn’t work. The Jesus robes w MSC and MSS. I think the initial idea might have worked but they just looked so bulky and heavy. Maybe if they were a more shear or lighter material.

[jim aka jtigre99]

So, this was their introduction on television and it was fine. It was 1970, after all, and this was the Supremes continuing on. This also asks a larger question besides looks and song choice. They say this helped launch the song and caused it to do very well at record stores. But did this help future songs? I am not so sure. Yes, they did Everybody's Got The Right To Love on television but it was a sing along song that wouldn't provide excitement to the television audience. Stoned Love was performed and that was a big hit, should have been higher on the charts, but was it hampered by awkward choreography on Flip Wilson and Tom Jones? Nathan Jones wasn't really performed on TV yet it hit higher than Everybody. Touch wasn't really performed on TV and it was such a departure that to only hear it on radio didn't help it. Floy Joy wasn't performed much on TV as Cindy was leaving yet it did much better, Automatically Sunshine was a great song but wasn't performed on TV and it was top 40 but should have went higher. Then they performed Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love a number of times on television and it didn't do well as the 2 previous songs, in fact only 12 places higher than Touch. Yet the updated look and sound used for it didn't seem to help as neither did TV exposure. Then they had IGIMTM and Bad Weather, both performed quite a bit on TV and both did very poorly on the charts. Suzanne DePasse felt they were "sequined out". MSC performed He's My Man after a 2 year absence with a lot of different looks and sound-gowns, pants, street clothes-yet none seemed to help the song. I never saw the follow up Where Do I Go From Here on tv, it didn't do very well. IGLMHDTW hit the top 40 and was done on tv quite a bit in quite a number of looks. Not sure if that hurt or helped. The last 2 songs were performed quite a bit but the choreography and looks certainly didn't help those songs. So, really did television hurt or help the 70's Supremes since it seemed to produce a mixed bag of results. For me, Jean had a great voice but on television lacked charisma-Mary and Cindy seemed to have more to me than she did. By the time of MSS, all three had charisma but it started to feel like three individual singers vying for attention instead of a group.

[Ollie9]

So, this was their introduction on television and it was fine. It was 1970, after all, and this was the Supremes continuing on. This also asks a larger question besides looks and song choice. They say this helped launch the song and caused it to do very well at record stores. But did this help future songs? I am not so sure. Yes, they did Everybody's Got The Right To Love on television but it was a sing along song that wouldn't provide excitement to the television audience. Stoned Love was performed and that was a big hit, should have been higher on the charts, but was it hampered by awkward choreography on Flip Wilson and Tom Jones? Nathan Jones wasn't really performed on TV yet it hit higher than Everybody. Touch wasn't really performed on TV and it was such a departure that to only hear it on radio didn't help it. Floy Joy wasn't performed much on TV as Cindy was leaving yet it did much better, Automatically Sunshine was a great song but wasn't performed on TV and it was top 40 but should have went higher. Then they performed Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love a number of times on television and it didn't do well as the 2 previous songs, in fact only 12 places higher than Touch. Yet the updated look and sound used for it didn't seem to help as neither did TV exposure. Then they had IGIMTM and Bad Weather, both performed quite a bit on TV and both did very poorly on the charts. Suzanne DePasse felt they were "sequined out". MSC performed He's My Man after a 2 year absence with a lot of different looks and sound-gowns, pants, street clothes-yet none seemed to help the song. I never saw the follow up Where Do I Go From Here on tv, it didn't do very well. IGLMHDTW hit the top 40 and was done on tv quite a bit in quite a number of looks. Not sure if that hurt or helped. The last 2 songs were performed quite a bit but the choreography and looks certainly didn't help those songs. So, really did television hurt or help the 70's Supremes since it seemed to produce a mixed bag of results. For me, Jean had a great voice but on television lacked charisma-Mary and Cindy seemed to have more to me than she did. By the time of MSS, all three had charisma but it started to feel like three individual singers vying for attention instead of a group.

I don’t really see how tv exposure could ever hinder a song, it just depends on what strikes a chord regarding public taste. Although really good songs, “IGIMTM” and “YWSSL” were never going to set the charts alight not matter what they were wearing.

[Bluebrock]

The only version of this song I ever heard until now was Linda Clifford's--she did a thunderous disco take on If My Friends Could See Me Now! I loved that, it was one of the few high quality disco tunes out there at the time, and it rocked. But the Supreme's version? Sorry, but too hokey for me. i don't like it.

The 12" version of Linda Clifford's version is just magnificent. It's so dramatic and powerful and Linda sings the hell out of it. Camp disco at it's very best!

[RanRan79]

‘Tis true other R &B artists such as Aretha were incorporating popular show tunes into their acts at the time. The difference here being that unlike the Supremes, they didn’t have a certain M’s Diana Ross as their former lead singer casting a very long shadow.
Absolutely they needed to build an act around jeans more soulful, earthy vocals by concentrating more on their own material which was pretty good stuff.
I know I’m in the minority, but why not start from the very beginning, consigning sequins to the lock up trunk.

Because of branding. The Supremes were a brand. Evolution is a powerful tool in entertainment relevance, but I think in the case of the Supremes, locking up the sequins would have had to be something that occurred over time, not overnight. I see this Sullivan performance as a great segue from DRATS to New. It stays on brand and still comes across fresh. I'd be surprised to learn that people sitting at home watching this thought to themselves, "Yawn, we've seen this before. I thought these were the "new" Supremes!" I think they came out of the gate correctly.

That first two years I think the group did a fairly good job of moving forward, changing with the times while remaining on brand. At some point the wheels started falling off, and I do think a lot of it had to do with the group sticking to the old glam image more often than not, but more importantly the problem was some poor single choices. But there was a way for the group to keep with the Supremes image and change with the times. There was a lot of back and forth with the image.

The 60s Supremes came to the table with fashion sense and an identity before Gordy and company were even in the picture. So when it came to mapping out their career post "Where Did Our Love Go", Motown had it fairly easy, being able to quickly pinpoint that thing about the group that set them apart from most of the competition. From there Motown was able to direct and guide the group's image, carefully, and evolve, from those girl next door looks from "Where" thru "Heartaches", sort of a transition period from "Symphony" thru "Itchin", and finally the "we're grown women now" looks from "Hurry" thru the time Florence left, whether they be in sequins or chic fashion. And then of course DRATS took everything over the top, which made the one off "Love Child" look so jarring and yet so successful, because they could drop the usual look to make a point and then return back to the over the top image that made them so interesting to watch. But Motown controlled all of that. They oversaw it, which of course is not to say that the ladies didn't have a lot of input, especially the original trio. But Motown did what was necessary to ensure that everything was just right.

I said all of that to ask this: with the 70s Supremes, who from Motown was invested in seeing that everything was just right? No, I don't believe the myth of Motown plotting the demise of the Supremes without Diana Ross. But it gives my business sense a headache to wonder how it is a business could allow a product as successful as the Supremes to essentially flounder in the midst of it still having a viable opportunity for continued success. I get Gordy focusing on Diana, but did he take the whole Supremes team with him? And if not, did the team suddenly slack off since the big guy wasn't around anymore? And if so, did Gordy have his head so far up Diana's career butt that he would allow his money to be affected by a lazy team not getting the most out of the Supremes?

It just all seems so dumb, the way things were handled.

[daviddh]

I loved this debut and thought they looked and sounded great.
It was the era of variety shows. Fun debut

[RanRan79]

None of the other Supremes could come close, but did they have the opportunity to? By 1966, it wasn't like in the early days when it was three girls surrounding one microphone. Diana was always afforded that little bit extra: just a little bit in front of Flo, Mary, or Cindy. Wearing a different color dress. Hair just a bit bigger. Earrings just a little more sparkling. Freedom to ditch the routine.

Cindy might have been on fire and Mary might have been doing backflips, but Diana was always positioned in front, to be the focus; to be the star.

No, they didn't have the opportunity. But it wouldn't have made a difference, IMO.

All three Supremes had an "it" factor, which is why I roll my eyes at the "Supremes were Diana Ross" line of thinking. I do not, nor will I ever, believe the train of thought that says the Supremes story would have been the same with Diana Ross and two other ladies. The Supremes were THE SUPREMES because of the three ladies the world came to know. And they all had that certain something that really should have made it no surprise that they one day were famous.

But all "it" factors aren't created equally. Florence and Mary just didn't have Diana's God given abilities to be so electrifying, which Motown was able to cultivate and help her hone. Her evolution as a performer is evidenced by the recorded videos left behind. Flo and Mary had their own "it" factors, and sadly, they were not positioned to hone the things that made them special beyond the vocal support they gave Diana. I do believe that if all three Supremes were positioned within the group to play up her strengths and shine at the lead mic that the Supremes would have been just as big as they were, and today would be even more respected.

But Flo and Mary were never going to be Diana Ross. And for that matter, neither would she be Flo and Mary. And I think that's okay. Aretha didn't need to be Diana Ross to make it. Neither did Gladys Knight, or Dionne Warwick, all ladies who had their own brand of "it".

[RanRan79]

I don’t really see how tv exposure could ever hinder a song, it just depends on what strikes a chord regarding public taste. Although really good songs, “IGIMTM” and “YWSSL” were never going to set the charts alight not matter what they were wearing.

Yeah, Jim, I agree with Ollie on this. TV might not always help a single, but it probably never hurt.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Yeah, Jim, I agree with Ollie on this. TV might not always help a single, but it probably never hurt.

Yes, TV never hurts but it certainly didn't help IGIMTM,YWSSL,Bad Weather or He's My Man. Still, they had some songs actually do better with no or limited tv exposure. Was Everybody's Got The Right To Love a better song or did exposure help as they were starting? It would have helped Automatically Sunshine to have tv exposure. Driving Wheel and Let Yourself Go had exposure but it seems that the television exposure wasn't going to help, especially lipsyncing with over the top choreography. I think if Let Yourself Go had been the choice with attention to visual presentation, we would have had a much better outcome.

[jim aka jtigre99]

No, they didn't have the opportunity. But it wouldn't have made a difference, IMO.

All three Supremes had an "it" factor, which is why I roll my eyes at the "Supremes were Diana Ross" line of thinking. I do not, nor will I ever, believe the train of thought that says the Supremes story would have been the same with Diana Ross and two other ladies. The Supremes were THE SUPREMES because of the three ladies the world came to know. And they all had that certain something that really should have made it no surprise that they one day were famous.

But all "it" factors aren't created equally. Florence and Mary just didn't have Diana's God given abilities to be so electrifying, which Motown was able to cultivate and help her hone. Her evolution as a performer is evidenced by the recorded videos left behind. Flo and Mary had their own "it" factors, and sadly, they were not positioned to hone the things that made them special beyond the vocal support they gave Diana. I do believe that if all three Supremes were positioned within the group to play up her strengths and shine at the lead mic that the Supremes would have been just as big as they were, and today would be even more respected.

But Flo and Mary were never going to be Diana Ross. And for that matter, neither would she be Flo and Mary. And I think that's okay. Aretha didn't need to be Diana Ross to make it. Neither did Gladys Knight, or Dionne Warwick, all ladies who had their own brand of "it".

Mary and Florence did have an it factor. As Mary stated they each presented a personality be it aggressive, comedic and soulful as well as nice guy and sexy which gave them a roundness. Sure, Diana's aggressive charm and vocal pliability stood out yet Motown missed that the Supremes could have been like the Beatles where each had their own it factor. Flo's soulful, down to earth comedic personae could easily have given Motown something to work with and definitely Mary was beautiful,sexy with a velvet voice with warmth to caress a ballad. Motown saw how much Diana stood out with her charisma but they were too preoccupied to work on the it factors that both Mary and Flo had. By the time it rolled around to becoming Diana Ross & The Supremes, the die was unfortunately cast. And, it was a lost opportunity. Still today people can see Florence's it factor and when Mary passed, Gordy finally acknowledged she had become a star in her own right. Still, I think had Motown nourished them a bit more it would never have taken away from Diana but surely would have helped Florence, Mary and the Supremes if they had done so.

[sup_fan]

Mary and Florence did have an it factor. As Mary stated they each presented a personality be it aggressive, comedic and soulful as well as nice guy and sexy which gave them a roundness. Sure, Diana's aggressive charm and vocal pliability stood out yet Motown missed that the Supremes could have been like the Beatles where each had their own it factor. Flo's soulful, down to earth comedic personae could easily have given Motown something to work with and definitely Mary was beautiful,sexy with a velvet voice with warmth to caress a ballad. Motown saw how much Diana stood out with her charisma but they were too preoccupied to work on the it factors that both Mary and Flo had. By the time it rolled around to becoming Diana Ross & The Supremes, the die was unfortunately cast. And, it was a lost opportunity. Still today people can see Florence's it factor and when Mary passed, Gordy finally acknowledged she had become a star in her own right. Still, I think had Motown nourished them a bit more it would never have taken away from Diana but surely would have helped Florence, Mary and the Supremes if they had done so.

part of it though could be due to the unreliability of Flo. there's no doubt that by early 65, the emphasis was converging on Diana. as they prepped for the Copa appearance, she really stepped up to the plate. the rumor is that the execs at motown and in Artist Dev, just didn't see that same level of drive from M and F. now i get it, they're 21 and like most people that age, they still want a life and fun. so they're probably being a bit unfairly compared to the over achiever of DR. but that exec team had great sway within motown. had the other two really focused on a "go go go" mentality that might have helped a bit. Berry was as much of an over achiever as Diana, that's part of what bonded the two together.

i also find Enjoy Yourself to be a very, very odd song on the Copa EE. if you listen excruciatingly close, you can hear Diana sort of ask each girl if they're singing. of course mary jumps right into her verse and delivers a playful and sexy reading. lots of fun. but then Flo doesn't do hers. odd. really odd. maybe i'm misreading it or maybe reading too much into it.

then there are the specialty albums. for the most part, both F and M were given leads on these, although they may or may not have been selected for release. even back to There's A Place. oddly enough mary was included with Our Day but Flo's People wasn't on the proposed 12 tracks [[which i do agree with cuz i think the tune is ghastly) by mid 65 were things already slipping a little? you had M and D joined by Marlene at that Country Club gig.

of course i wasn't there so this is all just conjecture. none of us will probably ever really know what went down, why specific decisions were made

[BobbyC]

Bluerock :Yup!!