The Supremes Mary Wilson Jean Terrell and Lynda Laurence with Bob Hope 1973 Full clip

[sup_fan]

is anyone especially familiar with Webb's work with the 5th Dimension? other than them, seems like Jimmy mostly worked with solo artists. it's very different to produce a group. As we saw with the Sups moving into the 70s and with Frank, he really took a group approach to things. planning material around the vocalists, bringing the other members more into the productions along with the lead.

with 5D, did Jimmy just approach them as a lead singer and backing vocalists or as a group? seems that his work with the Supremes really was just a solo album for jean aside from the 1 song with Mary. there's little to no interplay between the lead and backing vocals.

[Spreadinglove21]

Spreading, thanks for sharing the info from Webb's autobiography. At least he took time in his book to even acknowledge working with The Supremes--including admitting to regrets and frustrations. Interesting that his drug use was so heavy at that time--maybe it contributed to the poor choices with the album? I do have to agree with you that there are a few good songs on the JW album. If you can overlook the choral backgrounds [and if you're a Supremes fan and can deal with The Andantes being added or solely on Supremes tracks, I think you can 50 years later overlook the choral backgrounds on JW!] then you can hear some of the songs being really good.

I'd forgotten about the Thelma Houston album [though I have AND love it], but you have a good point about whether this was considered good reasoning at the time about how JW could work with a female soul singer and come up with really good results. Sadly, "Sunshower" was a much better-produced album than PABJW [with several better songs] and three years in the music business could sometimes be considered a really long time. I think I'll give "Sunshower" another listen tonight!

After reading the book and thinking of the difference in quality between Sunshower and Supremes produced and arranged by Jimmy Webb, I decided to compare the two albums Webb produced on the 5th Dimension--Magic Garden and Earthbound. While Earthbound has some good cuts and the vocals are always solid from the 5th, it's a big step down in quality from Magic Garden. Webb doesn't discuss Earthbound in the book [[it closes in late 1973 and he's still doing drugs but growing ever more disgusted with the life) but yeah he didn't have the same touch as he did in the mid to late 60s. I also listened to his solo 70s albums. I like them and they're not as overproduced as Earthbound or Supremes, but then again he knew the limitations of his voice and had enough perspective not to weigh down his voice, music and lyrics in big productions.

[marybrewster]

The only problem with SUNSHOWER was that it was released in 1969; the Supremes album was recorded 3 years later. So while it might have been good at the time, music changes so rapidly that 3 years might have been 30.

On another note, wasn't SUNSHOWER released on ABC? Can you imagine in Flo Ballard had a shot at some of Thelma's tracks?

[Spreadinglove21]

is anyone especially familiar with Webb's work with the 5th Dimension? other than them, seems like Jimmy mostly worked with solo artists. it's very different to produce a group. As we saw with the Sups moving into the 70s and with Frank, he really took a group approach to things. planning material around the vocalists, bringing the other members more into the productions along with the lead.

with 5D, did Jimmy just approach them as a lead singer and backing vocalists or as a group? seems that his work with the Supremes really was just a solo album for jean aside from the 1 song with Mary. there's little to no interplay between the lead and backing vocals.

Magic Garden does a good job of emphasizing the 5th as a group, especially on the title song, Carpet Man, Orange Air, and Paper Cup. However Billy Davis has a few leads such as Worse That Can Happen to Me. Marilyn and Florence get to shine individually and collectively on The Girls Song.

Earthbound I haven't listened to as much as it's not as good. Billy, Marilyn and Florence each get to sing lead on a couple of songs and there are ensemble efforts as well. IMO Florence got the best songs to sing lead on.

Webb can produce a group and in his book he has great respect for the talents and abilities of the 5th Dimension and was blown away by their talent and vocal prowess.

Perhaps he focussed on Jean for the Supremes album because he really liked what she brought to the table. He repeats same story as he did in the This is the Story box set liner notes about pushing Jean hard in the studio and her bringing in the doctor's note. Maybe he considered her another Thelma Houston and focused on her? But alas he must not have realized he pushed Jean to end up sounding shrill on a few tracks, especially Beyond Myself. Sunshower and Supremes P/A by Webb have one song in common: Cheap Lovin. Jean's version is fine, but Thelma's is better.

[RanRan79]

The only problem with SUNSHOWER was that it was released in 1969; the Supremes album was recorded 3 years later. So while it might have been good at the time, music changes so rapidly that 3 years might have been 30.

On another note, wasn't SUNSHOWER released on ABC? Can you imagine in Flo Ballard had a shot at some of Thelma's tracks?

The choice to bring in Jimmy Webb was just all around odd at that point. I would love to know what the thought process was behind the decision on the part of Motown. I imagine Mary and the Supremes were just glad that Motown was interested enough to offer to do anything, that it may have temporarily hypnotized them, preventing them from asking "Hey, what the f-?".

By the time Lynda entered, the 70s had firmly established a vibe and IMO the JW album wasn't it. The Supremes had always had a firm grasp on sophisticated soul. That was their brand. Jean replacing Diana was perfect in that she easily fit the mode with what she was able to do with her voice. The JW album is so purely pop and easy listening, it doesn't sound like a Supremes album at all. Yes, there are a couple of great tunes, "5:30 Plane" perhaps being the standout and the one that most fit the Supremes brand, but to me it still sounds more like something Dionne Warwick would have recorded than the Supremes.

The Supremes needed something with a "Bad Weather" vibe, or a "Yes We Can Can", or "Day Dreaming". They were not going back on top with "Tossin' and Turning", "When Can Brown Begin" or "I Keep It Hid". Shoot, as much as I adore "I Guess I'll Miss the Man", that wasn't it either.

[danman869]

The only problem with SUNSHOWER was that it was released in 1969; the Supremes album was recorded 3 years later. So while it might have been good at the time, music changes so rapidly that 3 years might have been 30.

On another note, wasn't SUNSHOWER released on ABC? Can you imagine in Flo Ballard had a shot at some of Thelma's tracks?

Mary, that was one thing I had mentioned, too--three years in the music business could be a REALLY long time. I just previewed a bunch of tracks from Sunshower and I'd say that some could've easily been sourced in 1972 if you weren't told, "these are from 1969!" But... there was a definite flow to the songs on Thelma's album. It's a better production with MUCH better orchestration than PABJW. Sometimes I think PABJW is a little too stripped down and/or funky to be The Supremes, if that makes sense. Maybe that's where Webb said he realized the sound he created wasn't really what people expected/wanted to hear from The Supremes?

And you're right--Sunshower was released on ABC. However, it was a California production all the way and released in June of 1969. By early 1969, I think ABC finally considered New York-produced Flo to be a waste of their time in continuing forward. But it sure would've been interesting to hear her try some of the Sunshower tracks if it'd been possible! Not to totally get sidetracked [though we kind of already are on this thread! LOL], but... I would've liked to hear Florence's solo material come straight out of Detroit--or at least Chicago. What about Carl Davis and Sonny Sanders? Two who understood the Detroit/Motown sound and could work with that. Any other strong Detroit-based producers in 1968/69 who could've really given Flo a better base for her vocals? It's awful to think that Robert Bateman somehow didn't/couldn't take pole position as producer for Flo on the ABC material as I think his couple of productions on her were the best. George Kerr wasn't a terrible producer and did have a Motown-NY connection, but... we know the results of his work was that Flo was NOT highlighted at her best. To loop back to the basis of your question, should Florence have been working with LA-based producers while at ABC?

[RanRan79]

On another note, wasn't SUNSHOWER released on ABC? Can you imagine in Flo Ballard had a shot at some of Thelma's tracks?

I could hear her on a few of the songs, but ultimately I think this would have been a poor direction. Flo needed something funkier, bluesy. But who knows? Flo's solo material was recorded when her body was going through a ton of changes. It sucks that we didn't get anything from her post-pregnancy to see what her sound may have been.

[danman869]

Magic Garden does a good job of emphasizing the 5th as a group, especially on the title song, Carpet Man, Orange Air, and Paper Cup. However Billy Davis has a few leads such as Worse That Can Happen to Me. Marilyn and Florence get to shine individually and collectively on The Girls Song.

Earthbound I haven't listened to as much as it's not as good. Billy, Marilyn and Florence each get to sing lead on a couple of songs and there are ensemble efforts as well. IMO Florence got the best songs to sing lead on.

Webb can produce a group and in his book he has great respect for the talents and abilities of the 5th Dimension and was blown away by their talent and vocal prowess.

Perhaps he focussed on Jean for the Supremes album because he really liked what she brought to the table. He repeats same story as he did in the This is the Story box set liner notes about pushing Jean hard in the studio and her bringing in the doctor's note. Maybe he considered her another Thelma Houston and focused on her? But alas he must not have realized he pushed Jean to end up sounding shrill on a few tracks, especially Beyond Myself. Sunshower and Supremes P/A by Webb have one song in common: Cheap Lovin. Jean's version is fine, but Thelma's is better.

Spreading, I thought Bones Howe produced the Magic Garden LP [[written and arranged and conducted by Jimmy Webb, of course) and Jimmy flat out handled everything on the later Earthbound? I figure the arrangements are done within what the producer generally wants to hear on the final results. So... I think of Magic Garden as a Bones Howe album with strong Jimmy Webb flavors, but Earthbound as a Jimmy Webb album through-and-through.

And I agree--Cheap Lovin' by Thelma came off just as rocking but much better than Jean's.

[RanRan79]

And you're right--Sunshower was released on ABC. However, it was a California production all the way and released in June of 1969. By early 1969, I think ABC finally considered New York-produced Flo to be a waste of their time in continuing forward. But it sure would've been interesting to hear her try some of the Sunshower tracks if it'd been possible! Not to totally get sidetracked [though we kind of already are on this thread! LOL], but... I would've liked to hear Florence's solo material come straight out of Detroit--or at least Chicago. What about Carl Davis and Sonny Sanders? Two who understood the Detroit/Motown sound and could work with that. Any other strong Detroit-based producers in 1968/69 who could've really given Flo a better base for her vocals? It's awful to think that Robert Bateman somehow didn't/couldn't take pole position as producer for Flo on the ABC material as I think his couple of productions on her were the best. George Kerr wasn't a terrible producer and did have a Motown-NY connection, but... we know the results of his work was that Flo was NOT highlighted at her best. To loop back to the basis of your question, should Florence have been working with LA-based producers while at ABC?

I agree Dan. Oh boy, the stuff we might have ended up with had Flo signed with a Chicago label like Brunswick or Chess. Flo had terrible luck as a solo artist in 1968. The pregnancy coupled with her inability to get along with George in the studio just made for a messy start. I agree that the Bateman recordings were largely a better fit for Florence, though I do think she did some of the Kerr recordings well, and some fans really underrate them.

I think the big reason Flo was hooked up with George from the jump is because of his Motown connection. I imagine that's how Robert came on as a follow up. So one does have to ponder the "what if" of what if ABC hadn't tried to force a Motown reunion at it's label and hooked Flo up with producers she didn't already have ties to. We might have gotten another facet of her talent had ABC tried again in 1969 instead of cutting ties.

[Spreadinglove21]

Spreading, I thought Bones Howe produced the Magic Garden LP [[written and arranged and conducted by Jimmy Webb, of course) and Jimmy flat out handled everything on the later Earthbound? I figure the arrangements are done within what the producer generally wants to hear on the final results. So... I think of Magic Garden as a Bones Howe album with strong Jimmy Webb flavors, but Earthbound as a Jimmy Webb album through-and-through.

And I agree--Cheap Lovin' by Thelma came off just as rocking but much better than Jean's.

You're correct. Bones Howe produced Magic Garden, but Webb wrote all the songs except Ticket to Ride [[I've the CD where it's relegated to a bonus cut and I never play it) and arranged them. And Wrecking Crew as the band. For Supremes Webb album, the core musicians were members of Webb's touring and studio band, not the Wrecking Crew.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Jimmy Webb was a huge misfire for the Supremes. Right On had been a great debut and had a number of great songs. It helped introduce Jean Terrell as the new lead singer. People were learning who she was and they were on television. Quite frankly she had the voice but not the charisma-you didn't get wowed like you did with Diana or Mary or Flo or Cindy. They had great songs like Stoned Love and Nathan Jones. NWBLS had too many cover songs-3- for a new grouping-if you wanted those songs just listen to the Beatles,Simon & Garfunkel and Steam. Touch had a great fullbodied sound with a nice updated single but the music on Touch and the different sounds in the shared lead turned people off. They rebounded with the light, frothy, sophisticated Floy Joy LP but they were also not on television as much. Then Cindy left and Lynda came in. She had a great voice and personality and a youthful exuberance. But by now they were no longer relevant, they didn't overcome losing Ross and then Cindy. By this time, they went back to a DRATS format show. Variety shows were fewer and they were used to the exposure given to them so we get the old tried and true Bob Hope appearance. If they were accepted and top of the charts, an experiment like Jimmy Webb would have flown better. It smacked of desperation. It didn't work and Jean sounded shrill on many songs, certainly wouldn't appeal to new fans. IGIMTM and Bad Weather just didn't have the sound to put them back to the top. It wasn't what the public was used to and it wasn't even an updated sound to their already established image. JML may have sounded good but the direction and choices betrayed their potential. By 1973, we had SMC and honestly it was a very welcome change.

[sup_fan]

The choice to bring in Jimmy Webb was just all around odd at that point. I would love to know what the thought process was behind the decision on the part of Motown. I imagine Mary and the Supremes were just glad that Motown was interested enough to offer to do anything, that it may have temporarily hypnotized them, preventing them from asking "Hey, what the f-?".

By the time Lynda entered, the 70s had firmly established a vibe and IMO the JW album wasn't it. The Supremes had always had a firm grasp on sophisticated soul. That was their brand. Jean replacing Diana was perfect in that she easily fit the mode with what she was able to do with her voice. The JW album is so purely pop and easy listening, it doesn't sound like a Supremes album at all. Yes, there are a couple of great tunes, "5:30 Plane" perhaps being the standout and the one that most fit the Supremes brand, but to me it still sounds more like something Dionne Warwick would have recorded than the Supremes.

The Supremes needed something with a "Bad Weather" vibe, or a "Yes We Can Can", or "Day Dreaming". They were not going back on top with "Tossin' and Turning", "When Can Brown Begin" or "I Keep It Hid". Shoot, as much as I adore "I Guess I'll Miss the Man", that wasn't it either.

i agree that the choice wasn't the right one but i don't know that it's so out in left field. the sing/songwriter genre was huge in the early 70s. so it would have been at least somewhat obvious to try. the group was clearly searching for a new identity. and you're assessment is spot on - the pop/AC vibe of JW and of the overall singer/songwriter grouping just didn't seem to really fit. sometimes the obvious choices are just wrong

i think they could have built more off of the FJ approach. gone more Quiet Storm and all. even if it wasn't Smokey doing the production. although given the relative success of the lead single and the lp, you'd have thought there would have been more push to have Smokey do a follow up album.

[marybrewster]

A new direction with an AC vibe is great, but look at the singers that were pulling it off successfully. Carol King with the wild hair and barefeet. Simon and G in tee-shirts and denim jeans. And Mary and Co. toting their fabuli wigs in their Queen Mother evening gowns.

This was the new era of the singer/songwriter. The Supremes, regardless of talent, couldn't compete.

[benross]

Motown Maniac: Thanks for your 01-08-2023 post; I had been wondering how people might react to seeing both the Diana Ross [[original) version and the Jean Terrell version.

You thought it was "funny" to see Bob Hope recycle the medley, for instance, as comics often repeat their one-liners and other material, while I thought it was terribly sad and a further indication that Motown had written off The Supremes.

In the early days, Motown pushed hard, making the most of its television exposure, convincing Ed Sulllivan, the Hollywood Palace producers and others to showcase various groups' abilities to handle the demands of the Great American Songbook, contemporary hits from non-Motown sources and comedy bits. You got the idea that Motown spent the time, insight and money to select specific songs for the artists and rehearse the groups for hours to make their versatility and talent known through these brief, unusual clips by The Four Tops, The Temptations, Gladys Knight & The Pips, etc.

But then, suddenly, that was over, and The Supremes were showing up in years-old outfits, repeating years-old arrangements and doing nothing new or special, custom-designed for them. They looked as stale and as tired as Bob Hope himself, by that time, and he was too cheap to give them even a few lines of new patter or a chance to work up a new arrangement of some other song that he knew. It was over.

Even Mary seemed to recognize this as she began to whoop for no reason, with no musicality [[throughout the presentation of Bad Weather here), pretending there was something exciting going on when clearly there wasn't.

I tried to enjoy the group's later efforts, but once Cindy and Jean were gone and once the original professionalism was abandoned, it wasn't easy.

I liked most of Mary's work on the final albums and I somewhat enjoyed seeing her several times during her early solo years, but the magic was mostly gone for the group, as presaged by the lifeless, run-of-the-mill presentation on this hopeless Bob Hope show.

[Ollie9]

I consider the “MS&S” album as fresh and exciting as anything they ever did. It really should have put them back on top.

[Spreadinglove21]

Incidentally Bob Hope is someone who, given how big he was in the mid 20th century, has completely faded from public memory and is generally regarded as a relic of his era.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I remember Bob Hope even at that time, thinking he was just a name from the past [[40s, 50s & 60s) that was known more for his shows for the troops overseas that what he was doing. I don't see any modern comedian saying he inspired them. The Supremes on the other hand have stayed relevant and have been the inspiration and framework for many girl groups from en Vogue to Destiny's Child and beyond. And we still have Diana a Grammy nominee, Mary when she was alive championing the group as much as she could and Scherrie and Susaye still performing. That is truly a legacy that still is relevant and cherished by many. Hope, on the other hand, just never seemed funny although to his earlier movie audience he must have struck a chord to enable him to last so long on television and touring although he seemed to just be going on through name only.

[sup_fan]

every artist and group needs to evolve their sound and image. there were things DMF and later DMC did along this route and when Jean joined, there was a solid effort that first year. problem as i see it is they didn't continue that. they also might not have properly predicted that these evolutions might need to occur at more frequent intervals. seems like they figured that change in 1970 should tide them over for several years.

then when things started to decline, everyone panicked and in an knee-jerk reaction they doubled down on the DRATS image, song charts and all. and this was practically the worst idea.

you then combine this with the JW fiasco, the deluge of duet mediocrity, too many MOR and showtunes in their show and you get the results we saw

[sup_fan]

A new direction with an AC vibe is great, but look at the singers that were pulling it off successfully. Carol King with the wild hair and barefeet. Simon and G in tee-shirts and denim jeans. And Mary and Co. toting their fabuli wigs in their Queen Mother evening gowns.

This was the new era of the singer/songwriter. The Supremes, regardless of talent, couldn't compete.

agree completely! this singer/songwriter genre was just too hippy/granola for the supremes. i think the Quiet Storm approach was much more chic and glamorous and would have fit their style perfectly

[RanRan79]

i agree that the choice wasn't the right one but i don't know that it's so out in left field. the sing/songwriter genre was huge in the early 70s. so it would have been at least somewhat obvious to try. the group was clearly searching for a new identity. and you're assessment is spot on - the pop/AC vibe of JW and of the overall singer/songwriter grouping just didn't seem to really fit. sometimes the obvious choices are just wrong

i think they could have built more off of the FJ approach. gone more Quiet Storm and all. even if it wasn't Smokey doing the production. although given the relative success of the lead single and the lp, you'd have thought there would have been more push to have Smokey do a follow up album.

Sure, the genre was certainly popular at the time, but so was contemporary country and blues rock. While a Jean Supremes country album would be a dream come true for me, moving the ladies in that direction would have been a head scratcher, and surely would not have been any more successful than the Supremes' actual foray into the genre way back when.

For me, I don't think there should ever be any question of the Jean led groupings' ability to "master" whatever type of music they were handled, much like the Diana led groupings. To my ears, listening to the JW album, it's never a feeling of they couldn't do the material and do it well. Like I said before, the album isn't a bad album. It is on the boring side though. There is little to nothing to get excited about. No immediate radio hits jump out. And while Jean is going to let her soul shine regardless, the album really is devoid of any R&B influence. So the question is why this direction with this producer?

Perhaps Carole King or Laura Nyro had enough R&B inspiration that they could have produced the Supremes in this vein and still kept the group THE SUPREMES. But it seems like someone at Motown would have had to approach the producer- be it these ladies or Jimmy Webb or whomever- with an idea of what they hoped to accomplish. What was that idea? What about Jean, Mary and Lynda said The Supremes Produced and Arranged By Jimmy Webb?

[RanRan79]

i think they could have built more off of the FJ approach. gone more Quiet Storm and all. even if it wasn't Smokey doing the production. although given the relative success of the lead single and the lp, you'd have thought there would have been more push to have Smokey do a follow up album.

It is kind of strange that this wasn't the decision considering how well received the FJ album and single was. I still think somebody dropped the ball with "Automatically Sunshine". The more I listen to the version on Mary's anthology, the more convinced I am that this was the song that should have taken them back to the top. But I digress. They had a found a good match with Smokey that surely deserved a follow up project. The only thing I can figure is that Smokey was ready to pay more attention to his own solo career, but even that is a head scratcher because he seemed to always do a great job of balancing his duties as a Miracle and the work he did for other artists.

[sup_fan]

Sure, the genre was certainly popular at the time, but so was contemporary country and blues rock. While a Jean Supremes country album would be a dream come true for me, moving the ladies in that direction would have been a head scratcher, and surely would not have been any more successful than the Supremes' actual foray into the genre way back when.

For me, I don't think there should ever be any question of the Jean led groupings' ability to "master" whatever type of music they were handled, much like the Diana led groupings. To my ears, listening to the JW album, it's never a feeling of they couldn't do the material and do it well. Like I said before, the album isn't a bad album. It is on the boring side though. There is little to nothing to get excited about. No immediate radio hits jump out. And while Jean is going to let her soul shine regardless, the album really is devoid of any R&B influence. So the question is why this direction with this producer?

Perhaps Carole King or Laura Nyro had enough R&B inspiration that they could have produced the Supremes in this vein and still kept the group THE SUPREMES. But it seems like someone at Motown would have had to approach the producer- be it these ladies or Jimmy Webb or whomever- with an idea of what they hoped to accomplish. What was that idea? What about Jean, Mary and Lynda said The Supremes Produced and Arranged By Jimmy Webb?

completely agree with your "why this direction with this producer" question. god - wouldn't we love to see the file of Meeting Minutes and other internal discussions from this time. you mention Country - was there a similar discussion for Diana and Michael Masser? was the recent increase in national view of C&W music the trigger for Masser developing LTISH and Sorry? for Diana doing You and Behind Closed Doors? were there meetings saying "ok what are we doing next for these girls? let's take Diana into Country and the Sups into Easy Listening?"

[RanRan79]

With hindsight, if I were Motown, I would have:

Released Right On with the singles "Ladder", "Wait A Minute" and "Then We Can Try Again". [[Had "Stepping On My Dream" and "You Only Miss Me When You See Me" made the RO album, I would have chosen those as singles 2 and 3, respectively.)

Released New Ways later that year, with the singles "Stoned Love", "Time To Break Down" and possibly "Kiss Him Goodbye".

The Mag7 album and the single "River Deep" in the spring of 71.

Touch album in early summer. "Nathan Jones" with a different mix as lead single. As a single, I still think "Touch" had a chance had it just been a Mary only lead and with a brilliant mix. How well it would have done is anyone's guess. The only other single I hear for sure is "Here Comes the Sunrise".

A Christmas themed album in time for the holiday season of 71.

Floy Joy album with singles "Floy", "Automatically Sunshine", and believe it or not, maybe "Now the Bitter, Now the Sweet".

A second Smokey album later in 72.

A live album around spring 73, maybe The Supremes At the Apollo?

The Supremes Produced By Stevie Wonder in 73. I don't have a problem with "Bad Weather" as the lead single, but I have faith that any subsequent singles would have been some genius Stevie.

Hopefully from here, it would be enough to keep JML intact. With Stevie's attention to his own career, I think a follow up, no matter how successful, would be unlikely. So perhaps Willie Hutch could produce something, if staying within Motown. Or how about Chuck Jackson and Marvin Yancy? Of course Thom Bell.

[sup_fan]

It is kind of strange that this wasn't the decision considering how well received the FJ album and single was. I still think somebody dropped the ball with "Automatically Sunshine". The more I listen to the version on Mary's anthology, the more convinced I am that this was the song that should have taken them back to the top. But I digress. They had a found a good match with Smokey that surely deserved a follow up project. The only thing I can figure is that Smokey was ready to pay more attention to his own solo career, but even that is a head scratcher because he seemed to always do a great job of balancing his duties as a Miracle and the work he did for other artists.

wow Ran - we're just aligned on everything today!! lol xoxoxoxox

i have always really liked AS and i too think it should have been a big hit. my theory is just the topsy turvy time for the group. with cindy's departure, there was just a void of touring and tv spots. and the whole idea of "oh lord - another personnel change for this group" really hurt them. it's very easy for group members to become a bit anonymous. Diana Ross was really the exception and combined with M and F, you had a situation where people really did know all three of them. that started to drift in the DRATS era as there was so much emphasis solely on Diana. with JMC you had some degree of fan recognition but none of them were that excessive over the top personality. So Cindy's departure really i think had a much bigger impact than most fans acknowledge.

as for the tune, AS is a great one and i love the alt version on the Mary anthology. the expanded instrumentation just adds so much and i think, in hindsight, the sound of the FJ album would have been improved with a bit fuller production. the album is a fav of mine but maybe it's a little too light and sparse.

this is also a fav mary lead of mine. i think the vocal inflections mary incorporates just is perfect. as opposed to A Heart Like Mine which seems so bland IMO. i realize they're very different types of songs but i find Heart to just be lacking any personality or passion from Mary.

[RanRan79]

completely agree with your "why this direction with this producer" question. god - wouldn't we love to see the file of Meeting Minutes and other internal discussions from this time. you mention Country - was there a similar discussion for Diana and Michael Masser? was the recent increase in national view of C&W music the trigger for Masser developing LTISH and Sorry? for Diana doing You and Behind Closed Doors? were there meetings saying "ok what are we doing next for these girls? let's take Diana into Country and the Sups into Easy Listening?"

That's what's missing from the Supremes' story, all the background information about why this song or that album, this producer or that, this direction or that one. I do think the way country was being received at the time had a lot to do with Diana suddenly cutting songs in that vein. With her, it paid off. If the decision really was to take the Supremes into easy listening, huge fail. Honestly, thinking about it now in terms of what Diana was doing, I think taking the Supremes in the country direction might have paid off better than EL, while Diana was certainly a good fit for easy listening. Not that Diana doing the JW album would have yielded better results, but I suspect she would have found a way to make it fit her in a way Jean was unable to do.

[RanRan79]

wow Ran - we're just aligned on everything today!! lol xoxoxoxox

i have always really liked AS and i too think it should have been a big hit. my theory is just the topsy turvy time for the group. with cindy's departure, there was just a void of touring and tv spots. and the whole idea of "oh lord - another personnel change for this group" really hurt them. it's very easy for group members to become a bit anonymous. Diana Ross was really the exception and combined with M and F, you had a situation where people really did know all three of them. that started to drift in the DRATS era as there was so much emphasis solely on Diana. with JMC you had some degree of fan recognition but none of them were that excessive over the top personality. So Cindy's departure really i think had a much bigger impact than most fans acknowledge.

as for the tune, AS is a great one and i love the alt version on the Mary anthology. the expanded instrumentation just adds so much and i think, in hindsight, the sound of the FJ album would have been improved with a bit fuller production. the album is a fav of mine but maybe it's a little too light and sparse.

this is also a fav mary lead of mine. i think the vocal inflections mary incorporates just is perfect. as opposed to A Heart Like Mine which seems so bland IMO. i realize they're very different types of songs but i find Heart to just be lacking any personality or passion from Mary.

Yeah, I'm here to make sure this doesn't carry on much longer. So here we go...

I love Mary's lead on "Heart". Lol I really do. It is straight forward and she doesn't do much with it, but I think the song reads better that way. It's a rather sad song, and I think Mary's approach plays to that. As for her singing on "Sunshine", I agree with you there, she really does approach it perfectly. The Supremes deserved a big hit with that one. The fact that it hit number one in a few markets suggests to me that with more push, and without the precarious lineup issues you mention, it had what it took to at least go top 10.

[sup_fan]

With hindsight, if I were Motown, I would have:

Released Right On with the singles "Ladder", "Wait A Minute" and "Then We Can Try Again". [[Had "Stepping On My Dream" and "You Only Miss Me When You See Me" made the RO album, I would have chosen those as singles 2 and 3, respectively.)

Released New Ways later that year, with the singles "Stoned Love", "Time To Break Down" and possibly "Kiss Him Goodbye".

The Mag7 album and the single "River Deep" in the spring of 71.

Touch album in early summer. "Nathan Jones" with a different mix as lead single. As a single, I still think "Touch" had a chance had it just been a Mary only lead and with a brilliant mix. How well it would have done is anyone's guess. The only other single I hear for sure is "Here Comes the Sunrise".

A Christmas themed album in time for the holiday season of 71.

Floy Joy album with singles "Floy", "Automatically Sunshine", and believe it or not, maybe "Now the Bitter, Now the Sweet".

A second Smokey album later in 72.

A live album around spring 73, maybe The Supremes At the Apollo?

The Supremes Produced By Stevie Wonder in 73. I don't have a problem with "Bad Weather" as the lead single, but I have faith that any subsequent singles would have been some genius Stevie.

Hopefully from here, it would be enough to keep JML intact. With Stevie's attention to his own career, I think a follow up, no matter how successful, would be unlikely. So perhaps Willie Hutch could produce something, if staying within Motown. Or how about Chuck Jackson and Marvin Yancy? Of course Thom Bell.

most agree with this too. some difference in terms of choice of singles

Right On - Ladder as lead and then followed by Loving Country. i would have replaced Baby Baby with Steppin on a Dream

Stone Love - side one as is and then use Time and Love instead of Come Together and Baby Baby instead of Na Na. Second single would be Together We Can Make. also completely revamp the album graphics. use the Afro pic for the cover and utilize the inside of the gate-fold with lots of pics of the girls, mini bios on each, etc.

1 duet album in spring of 71

Touch - NJ as lead and possibly a single edit of This Is The Story. or maybe Sunrise.

FJ - expand the instrumentation for a fuller sound. FJ and AS as the two single

Smokey album 2 - agree that instead of a 3rd FL single, something new. this would be a holiday 72 release, having been preceded in the fall by some sort of initial single

concept album - wonder if an album highlighting the recent trend in religious-based musicals could have worked? the girls had sort of incorporated a "revival" ending to their shows, like their use of O Happy Day. Jesus Christ Superstar was a huge sensation, Godspell and Joseph Dreamcoat were big but maybe not as. Jean could absolutely have knocked a gospel-infused album out of the park. do you think they could have maybe done something that play off of all this?

Apollo live album - love it

[sup_fan]

what do you think of this alt concept for a JW album. let's only use MJL on vocals:

5:30 Plane
When can brown begin
by the time i get to phoenix - with heavy 3-part harmony by the group, jean lead
Up up and away - lynda lead
macarthur park


All i want
Once in the morning - Jimmy duet with the group with 3 part singing on final verse
I keep it hid - Mary lead
Galveston
PF Sloan
Cheap loving

[Thornton]

what do you think of this alt concept for a JW album. let's only use MJL on vocals:

5:30 Plane
When can brown begin
by the time i get to phoenix - with heavy 3-part harmony by the group, jean lead
Up up and away - lynda lead
macarthur park


All i want
Once in the morning - Jimmy duet with the group with 3 part singing on final verse
I keep it hid - Mary lead
Galveston
PF Sloan
Cheap loving

I'm into it! I always thought it was a missed opportunity not to include "MacArthur Park" since it was in their live act. I also think "The Girl's Song" would have been a nice addition. Lastly, I think Lynda would have torn up "Cheap Lovin'." I do still like Jean's version though.

[sup_fan]

I'm into it! I always thought it was a missed opportunity not to include "MacArthur Park" since it was in their live act. I also think "The Girl's Song" would have been a nice addition. Lastly, I think Lynda would have torn up "Cheap Lovin'." I do still like Jean's version though.

i like Cheap Lovin' on the album - even with the excess singers. It and 530 are the strongest cuts IMO. and i think both would have been solid singles.

and agree Lynda could do some serious damage to CL!! I'm not 100% sure about Up Up And Away on my version of the album. it might have been nice to have another Webb original for the group. heck Beyond Myself is a lovely song, even if it sort of rambles. it's just Jean's shrill vocal which there just MUST be an alt vocal take they could have used.

UUAA is a bit too MOR so i was thinking they maybe spice it up. give it a bit more R&B and contemporary treatment and let Lynda loose on it. it's maybe a bit too lightweight for Jean.

[danman869]

With hindsight, if I were Motown, I would have:

Released Right On with the singles "Ladder", "Wait A Minute" and "Then We Can Try Again". [[Had "Stepping On My Dream" and "You Only Miss Me When You See Me" made the RO album, I would have chosen those as singles 2 and 3, respectively.)

Released New Ways later that year, with the singles "Stoned Love", "Time To Break Down" and possibly "Kiss Him Goodbye".

The Mag7 album and the single "River Deep" in the spring of 71.

Touch album in early summer. "Nathan Jones" with a different mix as lead single. As a single, I still think "Touch" had a chance had it just been a Mary only lead and with a brilliant mix. How well it would have done is anyone's guess. The only other single I hear for sure is "Here Comes the Sunrise".

A Christmas themed album in time for the holiday season of 71.

Floy Joy album with singles "Floy", "Automatically Sunshine", and believe it or not, maybe "Now the Bitter, Now the Sweet".

A second Smokey album later in 72.

A live album around spring 73, maybe The Supremes At the Apollo?

The Supremes Produced By Stevie Wonder in 73. I don't have a problem with "Bad Weather" as the lead single, but I have faith that any subsequent singles would have been some genius Stevie.

Hopefully from here, it would be enough to keep JML intact. With Stevie's attention to his own career, I think a follow up, no matter how successful, would be unlikely. So perhaps Willie Hutch could produce something, if staying within Motown. Or how about Chuck Jackson and Marvin Yancy? Of course Thom Bell.

A good idea to do have done a Christmas album for the '70s Supremes--perhaps instead of the 2nd or 3rd Four Tops duet albums. An Xmas album might have been chance to show of the group's continued [unrealized by the public?] versatility. I know the song MIGHT not have been written by Fall of 1971, but I have long thought Michael Jackson's "Little Christmas Tree" [[from circa 1973) would have been a great song for Jean's voice/delivery. Plus, all the harmonizing behind her [present on the MJ version] could've been easily handled by Mary and Cindy [or M, C and Jean]. The song by MJ is good and I've always liked it...but also always wondered what it might have been like as done by JMC.

[danman869]

Yeah, I'm here to make sure this doesn't carry on much longer. So here we go...

I love Mary's lead on "Heart". Lol I really do. It is straight forward and she doesn't do much with it, but I think the song reads better that way. It's a rather sad song, and I think Mary's approach plays to that.

Between Sup_Fan and you, RanRan, I'd say I fall on your side. I enjoy Mary's lead on "A Heart Like Mine." Thinking critically, it would've been interesting to hear Mary's stronger vocals circa 1975-76 [hadn't she been taking some vocal lessons by then--clearly her voice got stronger between 1970 and 1976!]. Of course, that's not possible, but I can hear that lack of strength in the 1972 delivery of "Heart Like Mine" that might have made it even more appealing across the board with a stronger delivery. [An aggressive delivery? No. Stronger vocal support from the singer in delivery? Yes.]

[danman869]

what do you think of this alt concept for a JW album. let's only use MJL on vocals:

5:30 Plane
When can brown begin
by the time i get to phoenix - with heavy 3-part harmony by the group, jean lead
Up up and away - lynda lead
macarthur park


All i want
Once in the morning - Jimmy duet with the group with 3 part singing on final verse
I keep it hid - Mary lead
Galveston
PF Sloan
Cheap loving

Some better choices from the JW songbook on your version that what was released, but... in reflecting on "Sunshower," I would've liked to hear the JML Supremes tackle:

"Crazy Mixed-Up Girl"
"Pocketful Of Keys"
"This Is Your Life"
or even
"To Make It Easier On You"

Also, I liked Thornton's idea of including "MacArthur Park"--ESPECIALLY since they'd been singing it in their act for a while at that point!

Also, what about "Which Way To Nowhere" and "Carpet Man"? If the idea would've been to play off what people recognize as Jimmy Webb songs [which I think it should've been], then why not use tunes that the general public might still recognize from the last few years in 1972?

Oh--and I wouldn't be a fan of Up, Up And Away being redone by JML. It'll a little too MOR for my taste and would've felt a little dated by 1972.

[Spreadinglove21]

If I could wave a magic wand and re-do the Webb album, here are changes I'd make:

Remove Tossin' and Turnin' and Paradise.

I Guess I'll Miss the Man would be removed from album as well, and placed as B side to the single to promote the album--5:30 Plane. And MOtown would have released a compilation album "Motown sings Pippin" which would include "Miss".

Beyond Myself and Silent Voices--lower the keys on it and re-record so Jean doesn't screech.

Add "Stoney End" so there's a Laura Nyro song to go with Joni Mitchell's "All I want" to showcase top women song writers of the moment.

Add "MacArthur Park"--it's being done in the live show so makes perfect sense.

Add "Girls song"--Lynda sings Marilyn McCoo's verse, Mary Florence LaRue's verse. If they are going to do a 5th Dimension Webb song it would be a better choice than Up Up and Away which was very MOR and too closely associated with the 5th Dimension.

Retitle album "When Can Brown Begin".

Album cover--something from photo session of JML in the studio with Webb.

[sup_fan]

i think you have to have some of the bigger name songs on the lp. Jimmy's biggest hits. Galveston, Phoenix, MacArthur Park. the problem with Park though is it is long and would probably take up 2 tracks on the album. so do you include or replace with 2 other songs?

i don't know about Stoney. You already have All I Want and so two songs by other singers/songwriter seems to sort of defeat the purpose of the album. Sure there's some value to having Jimmy as a producer and arranger tackling other material to do his and the girls' rendition. but that's one of the problems of the album we got - Tossin, Paradise, All I Want.

[Spreadinglove21]

I haven't heard the JML/C live version of MacArthur Park. Did they do the song in full, or an abbreviated version?

[sup_fan]

i think it's pretty similar in length to the version Diana recorded on the Lost and Found set

sometimes Jean did this as a solo number. sometimes MJC sang it. not sure if Lynda did but assuming it was still in the act then too

[TheMotownManiac]

If I could wave a magic wand and re-do the Webb album, here are changes I'd make:

Remove Tossin' and Turnin' and Paradise.

I Guess I'll Miss the Man would be removed from album as well, and placed as B side to the single to promote the album--5:30 Plane. And MOtown would have released a compilation album "Motown sings Pippin" which would include "Miss".

Beyond Myself and Silent Voices--lower the keys on it and re-record so Jean doesn't screech.

Add "Stoney End" so there's a Laura Nyro song to go with Joni Mitchell's "All I want" to showcase top women song writers of the moment.

Add "MacArthur Park"--it's being done in the live show so makes perfect sense.

Add "Girls song"--Lynda sings Marilyn McCoo's verse, Mary Florence LaRue's verse. If they are going to do a 5th Dimension Webb song it would be a better choice than Up Up and Away which was very MOR and too closely associated with the 5th Dimension.

Retitle album "When Can Brown Begin".

Album cover--something from photo session of JML in the studio with Webb.

what a lucid and thoroughly enjoyable read. I agree with everything you say, excluding MacArthur Park. The reason is it has been way over saturated by then and would be considered by some, I assume, as an old nugget. I love the new title I think you did a great job. And of course new cover art. I will still never forget seeing that the first time and wondering what the hell was going on. I assumed it was a brilliant artwork that was beyond my ability to appreciate it, seriously that’s exactly what I thought. When people talk about Motown sabotaging the new Supremes, I never think about this album cover in my rebottle.

I love the girls song idea, key changes….great job.

[Ollie9]

Regarding the “JW” album, i don’t consider the songs themselves the main problem. Jean performing material not necessarily suited to her singing style, in a key pitched a little to high makes the album a difficult listening experience.
New girl or not, i would have split the leads. Five for Jean, three to Lynda and two for Mary.
Lower the key for Jean and make “5.30 Plane” the lead single. A front cover pic of the ladies looking melancholy would have worked a treat.

[Spreadinglove21]

Found a version of Beyond Myself [[Not by JML) which isn't screechy.

[RanRan79]

most agree with this too. some difference in terms of choice of singles

Right On - Ladder as lead and then followed by Loving Country. i would have replaced Baby Baby with Steppin on a Dream

Stone Love - side one as is and then use Time and Love instead of Come Together and Baby Baby instead of Na Na. Second single would be Together We Can Make. also completely revamp the album graphics. use the Afro pic for the cover and utilize the inside of the gate-fold with lots of pics of the girls, mini bios on each, etc.

1 duet album in spring of 71

Touch - NJ as lead and possibly a single edit of This Is The Story. or maybe Sunrise.

FJ - expand the instrumentation for a fuller sound. FJ and AS as the two single

Smokey album 2 - agree that instead of a 3rd FL single, something new. this would be a holiday 72 release, having been preceded in the fall by some sort of initial single

concept album - wonder if an album highlighting the recent trend in religious-based musicals could have worked? the girls had sort of incorporated a "revival" ending to their shows, like their use of O Happy Day. Jesus Christ Superstar was a huge sensation, Godspell and Joseph Dreamcoat were big but maybe not as. Jean could absolutely have knocked a gospel-infused album out of the park. do you think they could have maybe done something that play off of all this?

Apollo live album - love it

I go back and forth on "This Is the Story". First of all, I LOVE this song. I have no criticism to give. Brilliant vocal. Jean killed it. That being said, I can hear it as a single but I think it may have been too dramatic to get the necessary radio spins. But on the other hand, Jean's emotional delivery may have struck a chord with the public, so who knows.

Regarding a concept album, I like the idea. Honestly, with the success of Aretha's Amazing Grace album, it might have been interesting to hear the group record a contemporary gospel album, doing songs like "O Happy Day", which, as you point out, they were already doing in the show. They had already contributed "May His Love Shine Forever" for the Rock Gospel album. They could do songs like that. Pairing Jean and gospel just seems like a match made in...well, Heaven.

Another concept idea that I brought up once, is having them revisit the A Tribute To the Girls project. While, the initial album was very likely going to showcase the girls pulling off McGuire Sisters and Andrews Sisters type songs, the new project could be the ladies doing updated songs from the doowop era, similar to the Three Degrees doing "Maybe", and songs from the 60s, like "You Don't Own Me", "Be My Baby", and of course a tune or two originally done by Martha and the Vandellas and Marvelettes. Maybe they do cover the Andrews Sisters with "Bugle Boy", make it funky and up to date with Vietnam going on and all.

Just some thoughts.

[RanRan79]

what do you think of this alt concept for a JW album. let's only use MJL on vocals:

5:30 Plane
When can brown begin
by the time i get to phoenix - with heavy 3-part harmony by the group, jean lead
Up up and away - lynda lead
macarthur park


All i want
Once in the morning - Jimmy duet with the group with 3 part singing on final verse
I keep it hid - Mary lead
Galveston
PF Sloan
Cheap loving

The only one I have to object to is "Up, Up and Away", since it was already on the Reflections album. Besides bringing in the Blossoms, perhaps the biggest travesty of the entire JW project is that "Phoenix" either wasn't recorded or didn't make the final cut. There are some fantastic soulful renditions of that song and there's no doubt Jean would have killed it.

[RanRan79]

A good idea to do have done a Christmas album for the '70s Supremes--perhaps instead of the 2nd or 3rd Four Tops duet albums. An Xmas album might have been chance to show of the group's continued [unrealized by the public?] versatility. I know the song MIGHT not have been written by Fall of 1971, but I have long thought Michael Jackson's "Little Christmas Tree" [[from circa 1973) would have been a great song for Jean's voice/delivery. Plus, all the harmonizing behind her [present on the MJ version] could've been easily handled by Mary and Cindy [or M, C and Jean]. The song by MJ is good and I've always liked it...but also always wondered what it might have been like as done by JMC.

Yes, I could hear Jean doing this. Ugh, it pisses me off that Motown really milked the Four Tops duets for three whole albums. No Christmas album, no live album [[in the States). We got three duet albums and a Jimmy Webb album. I don't fault Motown on the first duet album, but nobody asked for two more duet albums and nobody asked for a Jimmy Webb album either. Lol

But to your point about the group's versatility, it is a shame that this wasn't focused on more. That was one of the selling points of the 60s Supremes, that they could do just about anything and do it well. Bringing Jean to take Diana's place should have allowed a continuation of this artistic freedom because she had many of the same qualities Diana possessed as a vocalist. In fact, with the changing times, Jean was probably in a position to take the 70s Supremes in some directions that might not have been as easy for a Diana led grouping, like some of the gospel stuff and funkier stuff. [[Not that Diana wasn't capable of going gospel or funky and doing it well, of course.)

[RanRan79]

Between Sup_Fan and you, RanRan, I'd say I fall on your side. I enjoy Mary's lead on "A Heart Like Mine." Thinking critically, it would've been interesting to hear Mary's stronger vocals circa 1975-76 [hadn't she been taking some vocal lessons by then--clearly her voice got stronger between 1970 and 1976!]. Of course, that's not possible, but I can hear that lack of strength in the 1972 delivery of "Heart Like Mine" that might have made it even more appealing across the board with a stronger delivery. [An aggressive delivery? No. Stronger vocal support from the singer in delivery? Yes.]

I just think it's perfect as is. Her breathy delivery paired well with the track's arrangement. Of course the approach Mary took with "Teardrops" was also perfect. Another song about heartbreak, but it's a much more emotional song and Mary matches the tone perfectly. "Teardrops" was also another missed opportunity IMO. I think it would have hit had it been released as a single.

[danman869]

I haven't heard the JML/C live version of MacArthur Park. Did they do the song in full, or an abbreviated version?

Spreading, here's JMC's performance of "MacArthur Park" on The David Frost Show on April 30, 1971. Lots of unison singing, harmonies, and even a solo line for Mary:



I like this live version and would think a studio version would have been pretty epic--especially on PABJW.

[sup_fan]

Yes, I could hear Jean doing this. Ugh, it pisses me off that Motown really milked the Four Tops duets for three whole albums. No Christmas album, no live album [[in the States). We got three duet albums and a Jimmy Webb album. I don't fault Motown on the first duet album, but nobody asked for two more duet albums and nobody asked for a Jimmy Webb album either. Lol

But to your point about the group's versatility, it is a shame that this wasn't focused on more. That was one of the selling points of the 60s Supremes, that they could do just about anything and do it well. Bringing Jean to take Diana's place should have allowed a continuation of this artistic freedom because she had many of the same qualities Diana possessed as a vocalist. In fact, with the changing times, Jean was probably in a position to take the 70s Supremes in some directions that might not have been as easy for a Diana led grouping, like some of the gospel stuff and funkier stuff. [[Not that Diana wasn't capable of going gospel or funky and doing it well, of course.)

while i agree that the duets albums really missed the opportunity to showcase these stunning lead singers, i think the reason for the multiple releases is the success overseas. Album 1, The Magnificent 7, hit #6 in the UK. that's the highest charting Sup album there beside Greatest Hits. that's even a higher chart than Meet The Supremes [[the UK version of WDOLG). to produce a studio album ONLY for the UK would have been rather silly. might as well release it also in the US and generate some sales.

as for album 3, again i think they just wanted some sort of new product on shelves for Christmas 71 and so they cranked this out since Touch had been released 6 months prior and hadn't been a big seller.

[sup_fan]

Found a version of Beyond Myself [[Not by JML) which isn't screechy.

how totally obscure and odd! lol i had looked around to find if someone had recorded this song but missed this. the song really is very rambling. there's little to no structure to it, in terms of verses and choruses. i do think the Supremes' version is pretty but that screechy section is so very not pretty. but if that had been either removed or re-recorded it would have been fine.

[sup_fan]

The only one I have to object to is "Up, Up and Away", since it was already on the Reflections album. Besides bringing in the Blossoms, perhaps the biggest travesty of the entire JW project is that "Phoenix" either wasn't recorded or didn't make the final cut. There are some fantastic soulful renditions of that song and there's no doubt Jean would have killed it.

yeah i agree there are plenty of other tunes besides UUAA. i did want something more upbeat, otherwise the album would be too ballad-heavy. plus something upbeat for Lynda to really rock on. i'm just not overly familiar with Jimmy's work

[Spreadinglove21]

Spreading, here's JMC's performance of "MacArthur Park" on The David Frost Show on April 30, 1971. Lots of unison singing, harmonies, and even a solo line for Mary:



I like this live version and would think a studio version would have been pretty epic--especially on PABJW.

Thanks for sharing that. That was quite good. JMC had such a good vocal chemistry.

[daviddh]

I consider the “MS&S” album as fresh and exciting as anything they ever did. It really should have put them back on top.

i agree,i bought this album and loved it.
disco classic with saturday night fever a year away. some gems on this album but the group didnt survive long enough to really promote it. i read somewhere the last tracks on side 2 was going to be a single but cancelled when Mary left