The Lost Supreme

[TheMotownManiac]

But is that the argument? I don't think so. If a record isn't promoted and the public doesn't hear it, then what? There are tons of excellent songs that no one barely hears, while some subpar crap might make it all the way to #1. Promotion has it's place in the business. Whole departments at record labels are devoted to it.

"Popcorn" was a regional hit. Detroit played it a lot, it got airplay in Chicago and Gary, Indiana, and I believe someone said Philly was playing it too. Whether Motown had the capabilities to promote the record beyond what it was getting, I don't know. This was 1961 and as magical as it Hitsville may have seemed at the time, they were still in this space of it can only get bigger and better, or it's about to crash and burn.

Another aspect of promotion is performing, which actually was a huge arm of promotion for acts at the time. "Popcorn" was originally released in July, pulled, re-recorded and re-released in August. By September, Mary and Diana [[if not also Florence) were back in school. When did the girls have time to hit the road to perform the song? The young ladies didn't hit the charts until their singles they could promote from the road were released, "Your Heart" and "Right Way", the former released as the girls were graduating and the latter when the ladies were on the Motortown Revue later that year.

Maybe "Popcorn" wouldn't have done any better than it did with more promotion. Maybe the song's fortunes would have been different had it been released right before school was out for the summer of 61, or if it was held back until school was out for 62. Nobody knows. But the idea that a record sinks or swims without any help never makes sense to me when it's bounded about in this forum.

The song's regional success appears to be evidence that there may have been something there with more push. Interesting note: when the Supremes are mentioned in a 1962 Jet Magazine article about Motown [[I believe this might be the first mainstream, big time publication to mention the group) they are said to be the Supremes, "famous for 'Buttered Popcorn'", even though they had one charted single at that point and "Popcorn" wasn't it. Lol

so many songs that get promotion never go anywhere. Imagine what Berry Gordy did to beget a number one record for Miss Ross‘ debut. It was selling OK - it went top 10 on cash box and record world, but, he couldn’t get enough adequate airplay to get it into the top 10 on billboard. And yes, of course I believe promotion helps - of course I believe that but I also believe that records that never get any promotion hit. It is not a requirement. What resources were available for the promotion of shop around and please Mr. postman? Take don’t leave me this Way for example. That record leaked into the top hot 100 and took like 20 weeks or some thing to get to number one. I think it took like 10 weeks just to get to number 50. Chances are it didn’t get much promotion because this is a classic ascension of a sleeper record. It seems inconceivable to refer to this mega hit as a sleeper, but it was.

my point is that way way way way way way way too often people use the excuse that a song didn’t hit because it wasn’t promoted, ignoring the fact that a giant preponderance of the records that do get promotion, don’t hit. You can promote some thing all the way until doomsday but you can’t make the public want to buy it. They will hear it, but that doesn’t mean they’re going to buy it. You’re a special part of me as an example. It was hot as a fire cracker when it was released and considered to be a sure fire hit. But it was a lousy choice for the debut of this new duet and despite all the airplay it got , it peaked at number 12. It also got help because it was out for weeks before the album was so fans had to buy the single in order to get the song. A song like buttered popcorn is not going to appeal to a mass audience, but it’s very likely it could’ve become some kind of a hit nationally if it got promoted and played. Most people that I know don’t care for it but, cleave it to their bosom just the same because it is Florence Ballard. I guess it’s kind of like muscles. It was strong enough to hang out of the top 10 for a bunch of weeks but not go any further. And I would imagine RCA was behind it pretty strongly by that time.
another example that interests me, is bad weather. Some people like it some people don’t, when I first heard it I knew it wasn’t gonna ever get played and the fact that it didn’t get played I don’t think it was a surprise to very many people. Even the cachet of Stevie Wonder on the R&B stations didn’t help much. Then, if I recall correctly Mary had a talk with somebody about not getting adequate promotion on their records, and was told that it would get looked into. She commented that it didn’t matter by this point because this song is already been out for two months. Then, out of nowhere, it appears on the hot 100 for one week. I believe the story is true because there’s no real reason for it to be made up. However, it just might show what Motown could do if it really got behind a record, even if it had a lot going against it. Clearly it got a bunch of adds and, not much response, because it disappeared the following week. And Buy a bunch I mean enough to get it a debut on the hot 100. If there had been public reaction on those stations that was a positive, those stations would’ve continued to play it and increase its airplay. That would get reported, and if people liked it they would start buying it and it would have grown very much like don’t leave me this way. But something happened to get it on the hot 100 2 solid months after it came out, which is very very rare.

[danman869]

she could have written her a letter asking to borrow the microphone while the music was playing and the audience was not hearing the lead singer sing, but she was probably trying to do what was best for the audience which is to let them hear the lead singer, not stand on ceremony. However, due to the fact that Mary has a known, proven history of making things up and exaggerating and doing her best to spin things negatively towards Miss Ross, snatched might be a gigantic exaggeration. Like the $20 million for RTL, for example. Another favorite of mine who is when Mary, Who for some reason is comparing the success of JMC vs Diana, [[why, I don’t know…but I do suspect) leads her readers to believe that diana solo career was not doing well and writes that Diana only had one top 10 record in the three After ain’t no Mountain high enough. She leaves out the fact that that One top 10 record what is the number one hit touch me in the morning, and that she was the number one female pop vocalist and received a billboard award for that in 1970, and in that same period of time, had a number one and number four pop album, which charged number two and number one respectively on the R&B chart. and her duet album with Marvin Gaye also released during that period outsold any album the Supremes did without Diana. Of course there was no need to spin that crap at all because I don’t think anyone cared who was doing better the fact was that some people were enjoying all the music some people were enjoying some of the music and what else matters? But it mattered to her evidently a great deal. Enough to misinform the public. For that reason alone I take snatched with a grain of salt and still think it was the right thing to do. The microphones are not possessions. They are a means for getting vocals out to the audience. Mary should’ve been happy That Diana thought quickly enough to take her microphone. To accuse her of Any impropriety in that unexpected situation,in my opinion is bratty and childish Losing sight of the big picture which is the performance.

Why are you roasting Mary in this instance when the anecdote being discussed here about about Diana having "allegedly" snatched a microphone away from Mary when her own cut out during an appearance was based on a story Florence had recounted for Peter Benjaminson? Mary never included this story in her own books or anywhere else. "Maniac" may be a wholly appropriate descriptor at this point.

[RanRan79]

so many songs that get promotion never go anywhere. And yes, of course I believe promotion helps - of course I believe that but I also believe that records that never get any promotion hit. It is not a requirement. What resources were available for the promotion of shop around and please Mr. postman?

We're in agreement on that. But to suggest the claim that a record didn't break because it lacked promotion is somehow erroneous is where I take issue. If a record can benefit from promotion then it stands to reason that a record can die from lack thereof. I really don't understand how anyone can argue against that. That's not to say that lack of promotion is the only reason a song dies a fast death, of course. In the case of "Buttered Popcorn", the fact that the girls were in no position to promote their record from the road may have played a big part. And Motown's promo budget may have been such that when it came down to priority, "Buttered Popcorn" lost out, even though it was a Berry Gordy production. Simply believing that the record was bad or unlikable, there just isn't much evidence to back that claim up.

A song like buttered popcorn is not going to appeal to a mass audience, but it’s very likely it could’ve become some kind of a hit nationally if it got promoted and played. Most people that I know don’t care for it but, cleave it to their bosom just the same because it is Florence Ballard.

Appeal to a mass audience? Um, have you taken a stroll down the hits of 1961 lately, because "Popcorn" fits right in. And I've seen it claimed before, the old "people only like 'Buttered Popcorn' because it's Florence" line. It's so insulting. Most people I know who have heard it, liked it, for what it was [[early 1960s bubblegum). So if your "most people" and my "most people" are representative of how well "Buttered Popcorn" would have done, what does it mean? Because surely your "most people" doesn't outrank my "most people", and vice versa.

The truth is that "Buttered Popcorn" flopped. The reasons why will probably never be completely understood, as it would probably have had to be examined during that time, in the moment. Some people like it, some people don't. That's about all the facts there are to the song. Everything else is opinion and speculation.

[Ollie9]

Why are you roasting Mary in this instance when the anecdote being discussed here about about Diana having "allegedly" snatched a microphone away from Mary when her own cut out during an appearance was based on a story Florence had recounted for Peter Benjaminson? Mary never included this story in her own books or anywhere else. "Maniac" may be a wholly appropriate descriptor at this point.

Absolutely.
The microphone snatch as told by Florence comes across as a rather aggressive act by Diana. I’ve witnessed it happening to other performers who never felt the need to just snatch a mic from the the hands of a fellow performer. It reveals a complete and utter lack of respect for someone else, no matter what excuses are offered.

[kenneth]

yes i believe she recorded a bunch of tracks for an album called Second Time Around. there seems to be two sets of recordings. some older ones with the Tops on backing vocals and then some later ones with the Andantes behind her. a few of them appear on Sings My Guy and on Vintage Stock. i think the later songs with the As are the best as the Tops vocals are a bit too prominent. there's a lot going on and so it sometimes sort of swamps Mary's vocals. had she stayed with Motown, it's possible they would have released this to help build up her appeal for bigger clubs and to be seen more of as a performer versus a teen sensation

Oh that’s right, thanks. I really enjoyed those tracks from that set. Mary’s voice and her understated delivery were well suited to standards.

[sup_fan]

Absolutely.
The microphone snatch as told by Florence comes across as a rather aggressive act by Diana. I’ve witnessed it happening to other performers who never felt the need to just snatch a mic from the the hands of a fellow performer. It reveals a complete and utter lack of respect for someone else, no matter what excuses are offered.

i think the Mic story is a bit exaggerated. but if not, let's remember that both were 21 or so. young immature girls. my guess [[and it's just that) is that this probably happened earlier in their career, rather than later. by 66 and 67, the girls were pretty polished performers, having been grinding on the road for years. and so they had the confidence and savvy to know how to handle situations and not get frazzled. look at the flawless way Diana deals with the earring on Sullivan.

the general idea of what diana did was appropriate. yes, the lead singer needs a mic and if her's dies mid-performance, she should use one of the others until a stagehand can come out with another. also many of the lead mic stands had 2 - one stationary and one that could be removed for movement and walking around the stage.

so it's not the idea of what happened but how it was executed. diana could have easily said quietly to mary "my mic died, i need yours" and then mary easily move to Flo's mic. but even if Diana was dumb and just "snatched" it away, mary was equally dumb to make a scene out of it and snatch it back

if this all did happen, i'm sure afterwards that Berry or the road manager read them down for being unprofessional

[reese]

i think the Mic story is a bit exaggerated. but if not, let's remember that both were 21 or so. young immature girls. my guess [[and it's just that) is that this probably happened earlier in their career, rather than later. by 66 and 67, the girls were pretty polished performers, having been grinding on the road for years. and so they had the confidence and savvy to know how to handle situations and not get frazzled. look at the flawless way Diana deals with the earring on Sullivan.

the general idea of what diana did was appropriate. yes, the lead singer needs a mic and if her's dies mid-performance, she should use one of the others until a stagehand can come out with another. also many of the lead mic stands had 2 - one stationary and one that could be removed for movement and walking around the stage.

so it's not the idea of what happened but how it was executed. diana could have easily said quietly to mary "my mic died, i need yours" and then mary easily move to Flo's mic. but even if Diana was dumb and just "snatched" it away, mary was equally dumb to make a scene out of it and snatch it back

if this all did happen, i'm sure afterwards that Berry or the road manager read them down for being unprofessional

When it comes to stories like this, I try to take into account that the teller of the story also could be projecting their own feelings upon the situation and may be exaggerating. I would say this happens in practically every book I've ever read. I honestly find it hard to believe that Diana and Mary were snatching a mike back and forth on stage but I wasn't there so who knows? I would tend to think that if Mary had remembered it, it would have found its way into DREAMGIRL.

[Boogiedown]

I’ll go with Diana on this. It wasn’t as if she took Mary’s mic because she was tired of hearing her. She needed it so their show could continue as smoothly as possible.
A little chat afterwards with Diana saying, “I’m sorry I did that to you Mary but I just did the first thing that came to mind.”
Then Mary could’ve been forgiving and could even suggest that if it happens again , she’d offer her mic to Diana. Then they could laugh the whole thing off as one more challenge to work through in life as the Supremes.

[sup_fan]

and Flo was giving an interview years later on this. it's certainly possible that this story evolved a little into "storytelling" where things are amplified slightly. not totally fabricated but she might have been laughing about funny stories and things can expand during storytelling

[Boogiedown]

true. They might have all gotten a laugh over this at the time, and Flo could've even been remembering it that way. A big deal it certainly wasn't.

[reese]

and Flo was giving an interview years later on this. it's certainly possible that this story evolved a little into "storytelling" where things are amplified slightly. not totally fabricated but she might have been laughing about funny stories and things can expand during storytelling

In the book, the quote ends with Flo saying "It's funny [the situation], but it was ridiculous too."

[Spreadinglove21]

With regards to Buttered Popcorn, when it was released Motown was not yet "Motown", they were still getting their footing. Also the song was released around same time as Please Mr. Postman, which began to gain steam. I imagine the company put their promotional muscle behind that as it was proving to be a winner.

But what if Buttered Popcorn had struck a chord with the public, and gone top ten? Then what? A song like that would not have gotten the girls on Ed Sullivan but they sure would have done American Bandstand and those types of shows. Would Berry have pulled Diana, Mary and Barbara out of school to put on the road to promote [[I believe Flo had already graduated?)? What if Diana's parents had objected and said No. Would Diana been out of the group and been replaced so The Supremes could perform as a quartet? Or would the line up be FMB? Even if Diana stayed somehow, would the Supremes been like the Marvelettes with Diana and Flo splitting leads? Flo would have been the lead sound of the group, not Diana, due to top ten success of Buttered Popcorn and appearing as lead singer on Bandstand and the like. Would Diana been able to handle it, or would she have stormed out of the group, consumed with jealousy and Flo getting in the way of her personal ambitions? And what would have been the follow up song to capitalize on the hit Buttered Popcorn? Marvelettes followed Please Mr. Postman with Twitin' Postman, so would the follow up have been "Popcorn Twist"? The Supremes might have ended up a footnote in Motown history if they became known for singing songs about Popcorn until they were dropped as a novelty group. At least The Marvelettes were on less novelty/gimmicky territory singing songs about letters and phone numbers which could be incorporated into song of boy/girl romance.

[RanRan79]

With regards to Buttered Popcorn, when it was released Motown was not yet "Motown", they were still getting their footing. Also the song was released around same time as Please Mr. Postman, which began to gain steam. I imagine the company put their promotional muscle behind that as it was proving to be a winner.

But what if Buttered Popcorn had struck a chord with the public, and gone top ten? Then what? A song like that would not have gotten the girls on Ed Sullivan but they sure would have done American Bandstand and those types of shows. Would Berry have pulled Diana, Mary and Barbara out of school to put on the road to promote [[I believe Flo had already graduated?)? What if Diana's parents had objected and said No. Would Diana been out of the group and been replaced so The Supremes could perform as a quartet? Or would the line up be FMB? Even if Diana stayed somehow, would the Supremes been like the Marvelettes with Diana and Flo splitting leads? Flo would have been the lead sound of the group, not Diana, due to top ten success of Buttered Popcorn and appearing as lead singer on Bandstand and the like. Would Diana been able to handle it, or would she have stormed out of the group, consumed with jealousy and Flo getting in the way of her personal ambitions? And what would have been the follow up song to capitalize on the hit Buttered Popcorn? Marvelettes followed Please Mr. Postman with Twitin' Postman, so would the follow up have been "Popcorn Twist"? The Supremes might have ended up a footnote in Motown history if they became known for singing songs about Popcorn until they were dropped as a novelty group. At least The Marvelettes were on less novelty/gimmicky territory singing songs about letters and phone numbers which could be incorporated into song of boy/girl romance.

I don't think "Buttered Popcorn" would have really changed the trajectory of the girls' career. From 1960 thru 1962, the Supremes recorded a lot of the usual girl group fare of the time, most of which had Diana on lead. It's possible- perhaps even probable- that if BP had hit, Flo and Diana would have alternated leads on singles, depending on who fit best with what. Smokey was eventually able to tap into the sophisticated part of the Supremes. HDH hooked into that. What we know is what HDH wrote and produced specifically with Diana in mind. Had the group continued to be structured as a two lead group, HDH would have still been able to craft tunes for Ross as well as Ballard. It's interesting to ponder what kinds of songs HDH would have come up with for Flo.

I am almost certain Fred Ross would not have allowed Diana to leave school to promote a damn thing. I don't know about Johnnie Mae Wilson. I imagine it's possible she may have been more inclined to let Mary go out, provided she was able to continue her education on the road. Barbara had already graduated and Flo had already dropped out. So if "Popcorn" had hit and Gordy sent the girls out, I'm pretty sure he would have done it without Diana. Now maybe at that point he would have started working with her as a solo, or maybe she would have been temporarily out of the group until they came back to Detroit, similar to Flo going out with the Marvelettes and Diana and Mary being free to do whatever until she came back.

Regarding Diana's reaction to sharing the lead, remember she was already used to that when they were the Primettes. I don't think she would have been bothered by it at that point. Now had Gordy suddenly decided in 1965 that he wanted the Supremes to share lead duties evenly, yeah, Diana might have pitched a fit over that. Lol But I suspect she would have gotten over it.

[sup_fan]

I don't think "Buttered Popcorn" would have really changed the trajectory of the girls' career. From 1960 thru 1962, the Supremes recorded a lot of the usual girl group fare of the time, most of which had Diana on lead. It's possible- perhaps even probable- that if BP had hit, Flo and Diana would have alternated leads on singles, depending on who fit best with what. Smokey was eventually able to tap into the sophisticated part of the Supremes. HDH hooked into that. What we know is what HDH wrote and produced specifically with Diana in mind. Had the group continued to be structured as a two lead group, HDH would have still been able to craft tunes for Ross as well as Ballard. It's interesting to ponder what kinds of songs HDH would have come up with for Flo.

I am almost certain Fred Ross would not have allowed Diana to leave school to promote a damn thing. I don't know about Johnnie Mae Wilson. I imagine it's possible she may have been more inclined to let Mary go out, provided she was able to continue her education on the road. Barbara had already graduated and Flo had already dropped out. So if "Popcorn" had hit and Gordy sent the girls out, I'm pretty sure he would have done it without Diana. Now maybe at that point he would have started working with her as a solo, or maybe she would have been temporarily out of the group until they came back to Detroit, similar to Flo going out with the Marvelettes and Diana and Mary being free to do whatever until she came back.

Regarding Diana's reaction to sharing the lead, remember she was already used to that when they were the Primettes. I don't think she would have been bothered by it at that point. Now had Gordy suddenly decided in 1965 that he wanted the Supremes to share lead duties evenly, yeah, Diana might have pitched a fit over that. Lol But I suspect she would have gotten over it.

i think they would have handled the supremes' similarly to how they did the M's, at least in those very early years. yes if BP was a hit, the girls would have gone to Bandstand or something. and they would have hand to deal with the issues of their being minors, at least for the next 8 months or so. Flo was already 18 i think as was Barbara. and D and M turned in March. also it wouldn't shock me if for a performance here and there, M and D were replaced by 2 other women who were of age. just to get the performance done and the money

if you look at the music the Sups were recording versus the M's, you can already sort of see a difference in approach. the Sups songs IMO were a bit more sophisticated. if you listen to the things on Please Mr Postman or M's Sing 62, the songs are more juvenile that the canned tracks the Sups were doing. the group's harmonies were strong even at this early time. so i don't think they'd have pigeon holed the Sups into being a teeny-bopper Teen group.

[Ollie9]

i think the Mic story is a bit exaggerated. but if not, let's remember that both were 21 or so. young immature girls. my guess [[and it's just that) is that this probably happened earlier in their career, rather than later. by 66 and 67, the girls were pretty polished performers, having been grinding on the road for years. and so they had the confidence and savvy to know how to handle situations and not get frazzled. look at the flawless way Diana deals with the earring on Sullivan.

the general idea of what diana did was appropriate. yes, the lead singer needs a mic and if her's dies mid-performance, she should use one of the others until a stagehand can come out with another. also many of the lead mic stands had 2 - one stationary and one that could be removed for movement and walking around the stage.

so it's not the idea of what happened but how it was executed. diana could have easily said quietly to mary "my mic died, i need yours" and then mary easily move to Flo's mic. but even if Diana was dumb and just "snatched" it away, mary was equally dumb to make a scene out of it and snatch it back

if this all did happen, i'm sure afterwards that Berry or the road manager read them down for being unprofessional

I personally had learnt not to snatch things out of people’s hands by the age of five, let alone 21.
I do agree though that the retelling of these events might well be taken out of context.
I’ve always felt that DMF most likely shared many a happy moment during those early years.
Its us fans that like to scrutinise and debate the rights and wrongs which to me is perfectly natural.

[sup_fan]

I personally had learnt not to snatch things out of people’s hands by the age of five, let alone 21.
I do agree though that the retelling of these events might well be taken out of context.
I’ve always felt that DMF most likely shared many a happy moment during those early years.
Its us fans that like to scrutinise and debate the rights and wrongs which to me is perfectly natural.

oh i completely agree. i think the girls did truly care about one another, truly enjoyed singing and performing together. and i think they all saw each other as very very close friends.

very few of us have had an experience where you're constantly with a small group of people, day in and day out, morning noon & night, day after day. in the early years their schedules certainly allowed some time apart. but as success hit, they were constantly together. so of course there'll be fights and nit picks and this and that. that's human nature. for every 1 story of someone being a pain in the butt, there are probably 500 stories of fun, laughter, enjoyment and pleasure.

yes we die-hard fans put every single things under a microscope and examine it to the 10,000th degree. but that's the fun of being fans and hypothesizing what MIGHT have been