Beyond Bizarre: Adam Ant and special guest dancer Diana Ross

[reese]

In order for Mary to incur a SAG fine, wouldn't she have to be a member? The scenario doesn't make sense, especially since it's probably damn near common practice for these big events to take place with someone going off script [[without being indecent), missing a mark [[on accident or purpose), or changing a costume [[without being indecent).

Not commenting on the scenario presented. But I would assume that Mary, as well as the other performers, were/are members of SAG, AFTRA, or both since many tv productions are under union jurisdiction.

That said, one can appear on union projects without being a member. But if I remember correctly [as it has been over 10 years since I dealt with performance unions], a non-member can get a certain number of allowances but eventually has to join or not do further union work.

[sup_fan]

In order for Mary to incur a SAG fine, wouldn't she have to be a member? The scenario doesn't make sense, especially since it's probably damn near common practice for these big events to take place with someone going off script [[without being indecent), missing a mark [[on accident or purpose), or changing a costume [[without being indecent).

Mary's actions that night get way too much coverage around here, while Diana's inexcusable actions do not. I mean folks have no problem calling out Florence for sticking her stomach out on stage one night in 1967 when she was drunk and 23 years old. Diana can push and shove sober at 40 in 1983 and instead of that being the headline, there's a lot of "but Mary...".

Good grief.

i think many of the posts, including mine, have stated both women behaved poorly. I think a big difference [[and yes, i'm attempting to read minds here lol) is that Diana wasn't premeditated. i think she performed very poorly by 1) slipping onto stage during another performer and 2) her attempt to correct the staging during Someday. with the later though, she wasn't coming in with an ax to grind but was trying to get a situation back under control, albeit in a stupid and poorly thought out manner

while i certainly wasn't there and definitely can't say for certain why mary did what she did, i think her actions that night show an overall negative approach to the evening. she really seemed to find each and every opportunity to do something against the instructions of the producers. i don't know if it was cuz she was high as a kite on coke, if she was drunk, if she was seething with resentment for how motown treated her or some combo of all of the above.

Diana's was a poor decision made on the spur of the moment. mary's seems to be a plan to cause a sensation.

so in terms of what each actually did that night, i'd say it's a draw and both women were equally responsible for a shoddy performance and for significantly disrespecting the legacy of one of music's most important groups

but one was a planned, premeditated approach to the night IMO that is VERY different

[Ollie9]

i think many of the posts, including mine, have stated both women behaved poorly. I think a big difference [[and yes, i'm attempting to read minds here lol) is that Diana wasn't premeditated. i think she performed very poorly by 1) slipping onto stage during another performer and 2) her attempt to correct the staging during Someday. with the later though, she wasn't coming in with an ax to grind but was trying to get a situation back under control, albeit in a stupid and poorly thought out manner

while i certainly wasn't there and definitely can't say for certain why mary did what she did, i think her actions that night show an overall negative approach to the evening. she really seemed to find each and every opportunity to do something against the instructions of the producers. i don't know if it was cuz she was high as a kite on coke, if she was drunk, if she was seething with resentment for how motown treated her or some combo of all of the above.

Diana's was a poor decision made on the spur of the moment. mary's seems to be a plan to cause a sensation.

so in terms of what each actually did that night, i'd say it's a draw and both women were equally responsible for a shoddy performance and for significantly disrespecting the legacy of one of music's most important groups

but one was a planned, premeditated approach to the night IMO that is VERY different

One could also argue that Diana’s premeditated idea of exactly how the reunion should pan out is what caused the majority of problems. When Mary and Cindy refuse to stay in the background and follow Diana in walking forward she reportedly started to unravel.
Diana clearly thought they were back in the 60’s, with her standing two feet in front. Mary quite rightly though otherwise.

[sup_fan]

look at what michael did with the J5 reunion - as the lead singer he stepped forward and walked around the stage. shocking!! how could he do that to his own kin!!

Diana did not request that M and C be stationed back on a riser alongside the orchestra. she wasn't asking that they sing from offstage. as far as we know, she didn't request that their mic stand be place 80 feet behind her. she happily embraced them when they walked on stage and then simply moved forward to the traditional spot where a lead singer performs.

When mary performed HMM on the Tonight show with S and C, she was a step or two ahead of them during the verses while she sang lead. When Jean sang Stoned Love on Soul Train, she was positioned a few steps ahead. when Susaye sang lead on High Energy on the vid clip in Switzerland, guess where she stood - a few steps in front of M and S. and guess what!!! during He Ain't Heavy, she did it again!!!!! Susaye had the gall to stand a few feet in front M and S lol

and yes. there were times the women stood in a row. or shared 1 mic. there are pics of JMC huddled together at times. during Floy Joy on Soul train, MJL remained stationary at mics and in a row.

the point being there are multiple appropriate ways to stage a performance. just because Diana was 2 steps ahead isn't slighting M and C any more than it slighted Jermaine to be in a row with the other guys.

[RanRan79]

i think many of the posts, including mine, have stated both women behaved poorly. I think a big difference [[and yes, i'm attempting to read minds here lol) is that Diana wasn't premeditated. i think she performed very poorly by 1) slipping onto stage during another performer and 2) her attempt to correct the staging during Someday. with the later though, she wasn't coming in with an ax to grind but was trying to get a situation back under control, albeit in a stupid and poorly thought out manner

while i certainly wasn't there and definitely can't say for certain why mary did what she did, i think her actions that night show an overall negative approach to the evening. she really seemed to find each and every opportunity to do something against the instructions of the producers. i don't know if it was cuz she was high as a kite on coke, if she was drunk, if she was seething with resentment for how motown treated her or some combo of all of the above.

Diana's was a poor decision made on the spur of the moment. mary's seems to be a plan to cause a sensation.

so in terms of what each actually did that night, i'd say it's a draw and both women were equally responsible for a shoddy performance and for significantly disrespecting the legacy of one of music's most important groups

but one was a planned, premeditated approach to the night IMO that is VERY different

Oh that mean ole Mary, going off script, changing her gown, stepping forward. She should have been brought before a firing squad!

[Ollie9]

look at what michael did with the J5 reunion - as the lead singer he stepped forward and walked around the stage. shocking!! how could he do that to his own kin!!

Diana did not request that M and C be stationed back on a riser alongside the orchestra. she wasn't asking that they sing from offstage. as far as we know, she didn't request that their mic stand be place 80 feet behind her. she happily embraced them when they walked on stage and then simply moved forward to the traditional spot where a lead singer performs.

When mary performed HMM on the Tonight show with S and C, she was a step or two ahead of them during the verses while she sang lead. When Jean sang Stoned Love on Soul Train, she was positioned a few steps ahead. when Susaye sang lead on High Energy on the vid clip in Switzerland, guess where she stood - a few steps in front of M and S. and guess what!!! during He Ain't Heavy, she did it again!!!!! Susaye had the gall to stand a few feet in front M and S lol

and yes. there were times the women stood in a row. or shared 1 mic. there are pics of JMC huddled together at times. during Floy Joy on Soul train, MJL remained stationary at mics and in a row.

the point being there are multiple appropriate ways to stage a performance. just because Diana was 2 steps ahead isn't slighting M and C any more than it slighted Jermaine to be in a row with the other guys.

Yes, but I doubt MJ would have been reduced to shoving one of his brothers had they decided they did want to stand a little closer. The same with MS&C or whoever.
The fact remains Diana did cross that line and get physical when oh my god, shock horror Mary and Cindy took another couple of steps forward. Did she truly feel that threatened?.

[RanRan79]

the point being there are multiple appropriate ways to stage a performance. just because Diana was 2 steps ahead isn't slighting M and C any more than it slighted Jermaine to be in a row with the other guys.

If it wasn't meant to slight- and I don't think it was meant that way- then it shouldn't have made a difference if Mary and Cindy were two steps behind or standing alongside. That's the thing I don't understand about the anti-steps forward crowd [[yes, I'm calling you people a crowd). If it was no big deal for Diana to be two steps forward, why was it a big deal that Mary and Cindy moved? I could understand the criticism if it meant things would look weird or silly, like if instead of moving forward, Mary and Cindy decided to start break dancing. By moving forward, does anyone think the audience would have been like, "Oh my gosh! Mary and Cindy are standing right next to Diana! How rude!"? I don't think so. It would have looked like three singers on stage doing what singers do.

I find it hard to believe that the director had it in for Mary and Cindy. If the directive was given that at some point Diana moves forward, I can't begrudge Mary and Cindy having a problem with that. While someone like Diana could probably go to the director and complain or make suggestions without fear of reprisal, Mary, nor Cindy, were in such a position. So making the decision among themselves to rectify it makes sense. At the end of the day it wouldn't matter if Jermaine was okay with his placement. Mary and Cindy were not, and their feelings shouldn't have been predicated on what other people were okay with that night.

Mary didn't disrupt the Supremes reunion. That was all on Diana. She is forgiven, but we shall never forget.

[RanRan79]

Yes, but I doubt MJ would have been reduced to shoving one of his brothers had they decided they did want to stand a little closer. The same with MS&C or whoever.
The fact remains Diana did cross that line and get physical when oh my god, shock horror Mary and Cindy took another couple of steps forward. Did she truly feel that threatened?.

Could you imagine the outrage if Flo had knocked Diana upside the head for hamming it up? The lady stuck her stomach out on stage and folks are all like "she deserved to be fired". Diana pushes/shoves/whatever Mary and folks are like "she was helping Mary find her mark".

[RanRan79]

I would like to take this time to commend most of the commenters in this thread. We don't all agree, but it's been respectful. We poke fun at each other and joke and it's all good. I'm old enough to remember when this thread would have devolved into some of the nastiest Diana vs Mary nonsense one can imagine, that would spill over into people taking personal shots at one another. I'm glad those days rarely rear it's ugly head.

Give yourself some applause people, while I kick Supfan back to his mark.

[Spreadinglove21]

Could you imagine the outrage if Flo had knocked Diana upside the head for hamming it up? The lady stuck her stomach out on stage and folks are all like "she deserved to be fired". Diana pushes/shoves/whatever Mary and folks are like "she was helping Mary find her mark".

Diana Ross is the poster child for the old adage "No good deed goes unpunished". She took the mic at Flo's funeral to bring peace and healing and all she got was grief. She tried to help Mary find her mark and she got bad PR and books like Dreamgirl and Call Her Miss Ross for her good deed. She tried to save Adam Ant's performance and the Motown 25 show by coming on stage and all she got for her noble intentions was this thread. Poor Diana, so misunderstood.

[Ollie9]

That said, if Diana she didn't participate in M25, maybe they could have done an expanded girl groups section with video clips and performances from members of the Supremes, the Vandellas, and the Marvelettes?

Wouldn't that have been truly wonderful, being something that really should have taken place anyway. Adam Ant be damned lol.

[1382hitsville]

I would like to take this time to commend most of the commenters in this thread. We don't all agree, but it's been respectful. We poke fun at each other and joke and it's all good. I'm old enough to remember when this thread would have devolved into some of the nastiest Diana vs Mary nonsense one can imagine, that would spill over into people taking personal shots at one another. I'm glad those days rarely rear it's ugly head.

Give yourself some applause people, while I kick Supfan back to his mark.

RanRan, I agree and like to applaud other members / posters as well. We now know too much we can loose one of our icons too soon and already have lost so many.

My 2 cents on this post, from what I've read in the books and my assumptions om what I saw. I did spent a lot of money on eBay to get the VHS and when it was re-released on DVD it wasn't released in my region and I don't know how to jailbreak my DVD player.

I've read that Diana was very nervous being seated next to Berry Gordy, because they just broke up working together. Diana always had, and now especially, the feeling to proof her self worth.

She was sick, you can see by the color of her tongue she was sucking on some throat pastilles.

On the stage it was the first time Diana spoke to Berry. Diana always seems to be more confident on stage, controlling the attention.

The Adam Ant performance should never have taken place and planned or not, Diana should not have joined him.

As for the reunion...well that was the biggest dissapointment when I finally saw it. Poorly edited, and Mary trying to stay to get as much attention as she could get.

I've read before about the push / shove , staying on 1 line and the soundcheck issues. Forgetting lines and so on. The director or producer should have stopped it and give the girls a second chance to do it over. It was taped.

Mary, holding the Supremes candle in later years, Diana, always trying to look forward in stead of backwards and Cindy in the middle of all.

If I remember correctly, during the premiere of "Motown: The Musical" when Berry and Diana where asked on stage, Mary and Gladys Knight [[who bought tickets) barged on stage as well. Remember the picture of Diana touching Mary's cheek, google it, it looks tender and sweet.

As I wrote before, being a musical genius and businessman doesn't make you the best manager [[Berry). Suffering from an imposter syndrome and always trying to proof yourself [[Diana) doesn't make you a nice person. Someone who feels hurt and not acknowledged enough makes to try harder and harder to shout [[Mary)

It was a mess, it could have been corrected on the night but it hasn't. And that is a shame because it once put again negative attention to the most successful girl group of all time, being an example or many future performers and being trailblazers they where at the time.

[marybrewster]

I'd still like to know if Diana's speech about Berry not feeling appreciated was planned and scripted. It doesn't sound like it to me.

So why all the dramatics about Mary going offscript when Diana did the same? I mean, did Mary sing "Ave Maria" a la Flo? What's the worst possible thing Mary could have said that gets everyone's panties in a bunch?

[sup_fan]

we don't know the exact details of course. it's possible she was told to "say some nice things about berry" or was given a script and she deviated from it. or that's what was written.

having not heard the exact speech mary gives, i'm not 100% sure of the content. what i've heard is that it was a nice speech and well presented.

my guess about the bunched panties is the overall approach mary took to the night. i think one of Randy's books mentions that she was telling people "there's gonna be fireworks tonight!" so my take is that, as i said earlier, she arrived with a very specific agenda and was planning on "launching fireworks" i think that's much of the problem.

mary is hardly the only former artist with an ax to grind. the others all seemed to be willing to set differences aside for 1 evening and celebrate the label. mary was not.

Gladys Knight made the wise decision - they had felt disrespected and not part of the family and so felt it would be hypocritical to attend. if mary was really still burning from what she perceived as ill-treatment by motown, then why bother attending? if she was so filled with rage whenever she heard Berry name, wouldn't it have simply been the more adult thing to just say "hey thanks but no thanks"

Marvin had had horrible problems with motown. martha was mistreated. mary wells surely had a negative view of things. Cindy had been quite mistreated too - and in many situations by mary herself. yet they all were gracious, performed as directed. Surely we could have justified martha saying "fuck this 30 sec snippet - i'm gonna just step forward with the mic and sing another 30 secs" but she didn't

[reese]

I'd still like to know if Diana's speech about Berry not feeling appreciated was planned and scripted. It doesn't sound like it to me.

So why all the dramatics about Mary going offscript when Diana did the same? I mean, did Mary sing "Ave Maria" a la Flo? What's the worst possible thing Mary could have said that gets everyone's panties in a bunch?

I would agree with Sup_Fan in that Diana was probably told to share some feelings about Berry and Motown off the cuff. So the most they could do with that was hope that Diana could wing it and not go on too long. And if so, they could just edit it, as we can see in the final show, they did.

On the other hand, Mary was given a specific script to read. Perhaps if she had time, Mary could've went to Suzanne and Don and said "Do you mind if I add a few things?" They might have said yes or they might have said no. But she didn't give them the chance. And though it may seem like a small thing, it can be seen as troublesome if you're seen as someone who breaks script. It certainly cost Mary exposure in future Motown productions.

Note: I'm not saying that Mary deserved to be "punished" in that way but I understand it.

[Ollie9]

we don't know the exact details of course. it's possible she was told to "say some nice things about berry" or was given a script and she deviated from it. or that's what was written.

having not heard the exact speech mary gives, i'm not 100% sure of the content. what i've heard is that it was a nice speech and well presented.

my guess about the bunched panties is the overall approach mary took to the night. i think one of Randy's books mentions that she was telling people "there's gonna be fireworks tonight!" so my take is that, as i said earlier, she arrived with a very specific agenda and was planning on "launching fireworks" i think that's much of the problem.

mary is hardly the only former artist with an ax to grind. the others all seemed to be willing to set differences aside for 1 evening and celebrate the label. mary was not.

Gladys Knight made the wise decision - they had felt disrespected and not part of the family and so felt it would be hypocritical to attend. if mary was really still burning from what she perceived as ill-treatment by motown, then why bother attending? if she was so filled with rage whenever she heard Berry name, wouldn't it have simply been the more adult thing to just say "hey thanks but no thanks"

Marvin had had horrible problems with motown. martha was mistreated. mary wells surely had a negative view of things. Cindy had been quite mistreated too - and in many situations by mary herself. yet they all were gracious, performed as directed. Surely we could have justified martha saying "fuck this 30 sec snippet - i'm gonna just step forward with the mic and sing another 30 secs" but she didn't

Mary might have been a ‘tad pissed regarding the Supremes segment being reduced to one song, but i would hardly call that full of rage. I see no reason for Mary staying away as she deserved to be there just as much as Diana. You might as well say Diana shouldn’t have bothered because she had to be cajoled into it.
It certainly appeared that Diana preferred the spotlight be on her solo career as opposed to celebrating the group that first made her a star.
Compared to Diana’s shenanigans, Mary at least kept her dignity with the viewing public.

[sup_fan]

my points aren't about Mary's dissatisfaction with the cutting of the Sup songs. i completely agree with her on that. and i think much of the blame for that falls on Diana, being late and also that the producers and Diana should have been in contact prior to the night-of in order to prepare the charts and songs. and if diana was too "busy" to prepare, shame on her. so i'm in total agreement here. let's face it. even if the Sups reunion didn't have the fracas that ensued, having DMC sing half of 1 song would still be insulting and hardly worthy of being called a Reunion. better than what we got of course but still crap

what i've been trying to say is that mary seems to have approached the evening with a score to settle. Randy's books talking about "fireworks" seem to be from the whole evening, not just after their rehearsal. that's what i think is the problem. mary was planning on being out of line and doing whatever. she might not have had all of the details plotted down to the second but she was approaching her whole participation in the event as an opportunity to grandstand.

[Boogiedown]

I’m learning quite a bit from this thread. One thing I didn’t know was that Diana Ross was sick and therefore her voice was sub par. It doesn’t excuse the lack of preparation these three invested in the historic reunion, but even had they, there’s no way they were going to properly knock it out of the park if Diana’s voice couldn’t deliver.

Also shame on her for sitting in the audience and then kissing and hugging all those people if she were ill. No wonder Adam Ant just wanted her to go away.

[bradsupremes]

we don't know the exact details of course. it's possible she was told to "say some nice things about berry" or was given a script and she deviated from it. or that's what was written.

having not heard the exact speech mary gives, i'm not 100% sure of the content. what i've heard is that it was a nice speech and well presented.

As someone who has seen the speech, it was literally a brief side step away from the script to note the Motown family who were no longer around. She mentions Flo, of course, but I want to say she noted Paul Williams, a few others like Mom & Pops Gordy, etc. I can’t remember offhand all the names. It was not a 3-4 minute rant. I want to say maybe a minute tops. Maybe not even that. It was very heartfelt. I guarantee if everyone here saw it, the whole “Mary should have been fined, Mary was causing chaos for the production crew, Mary was out of line, etc.” would realize how blown out of proportion it has become. Seriously, Diana jumping onstage during Adam Ant’s performance was more chaos for cameras, lighting, production, etc.

Yes, Diana was ill that night. Her bright red tongue is a clear indicator she was on meds/cough syrup. Some have said she had a little too much cough syrup.

[marybrewster]

we don't know the exact details of course. it's possible she was told to "say some nice things about berry" or was given a script and she deviated from it. or that's what was written.

having not heard the exact speech mary gives, i'm not 100% sure of the content. what i've heard is that it was a nice speech and well presented.

my guess about the bunched panties is the overall approach mary took to the night. i think one of Randy's books mentions that she was telling people "there's gonna be fireworks tonight!" so my take is that, as i said earlier, she arrived with a very specific agenda and was planning on "launching fireworks" i think that's much of the problem.

mary is hardly the only former artist with an ax to grind. the others all seemed to be willing to set differences aside for 1 evening and celebrate the label. mary was not.

Gladys Knight made the wise decision - they had felt disrespected and not part of the family and so felt it would be hypocritical to attend. if mary was really still burning from what she perceived as ill-treatment by motown, then why bother attending? if she was so filled with rage whenever she heard Berry name, wouldn't it have simply been the more adult thing to just say "hey thanks but no thanks"

Marvin had had horrible problems with motown. martha was mistreated. mary wells surely had a negative view of things. Cindy had been quite mistreated too - and in many situations by mary herself. yet they all were gracious, performed as directed. Surely we could have justified martha saying "fuck this 30 sec snippet - i'm gonna just step forward with the mic and sing another 30 secs" but she didn't

I disagree. Weren't several backstage egging Mary to step on or kick Diana's fur? Hardly setting anything aside, if that's the case.

[reese]

I disagree. Weren't several backstage egging Mary to step on or kick Diana's fur? Hardly setting anything aside, if that's the case.

In DREAMGIRL, Mary wrote that Richard Pryor half-teased "Step on that fur, Mary!" She also wrote a female voice said "Kick it!" When she wrote about it in SUPREME FAITH, she identified the female as Martha Reeves and wrote she said it "venomously."

In her own book, Martha wrote that she told Mary "don't you dare let her [Diana] trip you with that fur!"

Martha also wrote that her own rehearsal took place the day of the taping. So aside from people who might have pre-recorded tracks and vocals beforehand, many of the acts may not have had a lot of preparation.

[Boogiedown]

But also most of the acts were currently active and well
practiced in their performances and not as moth-balled as The Supremes. They mostly needed prep time to clarify staging and any particulars concerning the show.
How much advance notice did these acts have that they were to be performing at this shindig I wonder?

[floyjoy678]

Sounds like the event was badly organized. The producers should have had them rehearsing a couple days prior and not the day of. If the acts had prior commitments than I would think that would mean they were only given short notice of the event.

[jobeterob]

But also most of the acts were currently active and well
practiced in their performances and not as moth-balled as The Supremes. They mostly needed prep time to clarify staging and any particulars concerning the show.
How much advance notice did these acts have that they were to be performing at this shindig I wonder?

Perhaps the powers that be concluded that Mary and Cindy would only be doing oohs and aahs and making signs so no practice was needed

Just kidding !

[RanRan79]

what i've been trying to say is that mary seems to have approached the evening with a score to settle. Randy's books talking about "fireworks" seem to be from the whole evening, not just after their rehearsal. that's what i think is the problem. mary was planning on being out of line and doing whatever. she might not have had all of the details plotted down to the second but she was approaching her whole participation in the event as an opportunity to grandstand.

Let's have some perspective here. The "fireworks" of Mary in question were:

-Mary deciding [[with Cindy) to manipulate the volumes of their mics to ensure the two of them are heard.

-Mary going off script to include some Motown family members who had passed on.

-Mary changing her gown from the "agreed" upon colors.

-Mary and Cindy deciding to match Diana's movements on stage.

-Mary calling out to Berry when she was not charged with that task.

While I only have a problem with one of these things [[the last point, Mary knew that wasn't her place), none of them can really be considered "fireworks". Certainly wouldn't have been considered that if we were talking about any other group. JRT wrote that Mary promised there would be fireworks. If she really did say that, the lady really didn't understand the definition.

On the other hand, if Diana somehow overheard Mary's rumored promise of fireworks, Diana understood the assignment. Pushing on Mary, and later shoving Mary's hand down, would technically fall under the term of "fireworks". Mary's promise could have been fulfilled had she popped Diana in the mouth at either the first or second breech of conduct. The fact that Mary didn't tells me she didn't have the fireworks in her heart that people believe she did.

I'll tell you one thing, Flo would have known how to do fireworks at Motown 25. You can bet on that.

[floyjoy678]

Ranran I know Flo wouldn't have put up with either of Diana or Mary's behavior. In fact I always wonder if the reunion would have been more successful had she been alive and involved. I don't think Diana would have had the balls to guide Flo to her place.

[RanRan79]

Perhaps the powers that be concluded that Mary and Cindy would only be doing oohs and aahs and making signs so no practice was needed

Just kidding !

Joking aside, the question has to be asked, how much rehearsal did the Supremes need? I get Floy's point about rehearsals, but I don't think most of the acts really needed much. The Tempts and Tops might have needed time to get their spot together, especially since they were playing off of each other. But the Tempts and Tops were also currently live acts who were already doing these songs and most of the choreography. I guarantee the Jacksons probably didn't show up at the venue that day and that was their first rehearsal for the show. I can understand the need they would have had to get some practice in beforehand.

Both Diana and Mary could probably sing the songs intended for the medley in their sleep. For Diana the exception was probably "Someday", but she could have re-familiarized herself with the lyrics to that in the months, weeks or days before the taping. The group wasn't going to do any intricate choreography. There wasn't a need for mic stands, so with the three singers standing together, they sing the freaking songs and call it a day. There couldn't have been much that was complicated regarding their set that they couldn't handle with a last minute rehearsal.

Of course we'll never really know because the medley was scrapped and reduced to the one number Diana apparently couldn't remember.

[RanRan79]

Ranran I know Flo wouldn't have put up with either of Diana or Mary's behavior. In fact I always wonder if the reunion would have been more successful had she been alive and involved. I don't think Diana would have had the balls to guide Flo to her place.

It's actually sad that we'll never get the opportunity to hear from Mary and Diana together about the impact of Flo's death even on their own relationship. I have a feeling that neither lady has really publicly revealed how the death of Flo affected how they dealt with one another going forward. I think had Flo lived, a lot of the eventual drama wouldn't have occurred. Some- and I stress the word "some"- of Diana and Mary's issues with each other I believe stemmed from the trauma of Flo's death. For it to happen so unexpectedly and while she was so young, leaving kids behind, and the memories of what used to be, and reconciling with the ladies and promising a future together, it had to have an impact. That last one especially had to be traumatic. To be talking to someone one day about the future and then a couple months later that person has no future...I know what it's like first hand to talk to someone and a few weeks later that person is dead, unexpectedly, at a very young age. You don't get over it. My point being, Flo's death just ended up another issue that Mary and Diana refused to communicate on, and because it was Flo and it was death, it was a heavier issue than one person felt upstaged and left behind by the other and one person felt the other wasn't supportive or was jealous. Flo's death was unspoken, but it was hanging over their heads just the same.

Had Flo lived I don't even think Mary would have written her book, because a lot of the book focuses on Flo and Diana. Mary couldn't have written the story without including Flo, and I don't think Mary would have revealed Flo's story to tell if Flo were alive to tell it herself, if she chose to.

I don't think Flo would have gone to Motown 25 to cause problems. My point in the other message was that if Flo had gone to cause problems, there would have been no debate about whether what she did was "fireworks" or not. Lol

[Ollie9]

It's actually sad that we'll never get the opportunity to hear from Mary and Diana together about the impact of Flo's death even on their own relationship. I have a feeling that neither lady has really publicly revealed how the death of Flo affected how they dealt with one another going forward. I think had Flo lived, a lot of the eventual drama wouldn't have occurred. Some- and I stress the word "some"- of Diana and Mary's issues with each other I believe stemmed from the trauma of Flo's death. For it to happen so unexpectedly and while she was so young, leaving kids behind, and the memories of what used to be, and reconciling with the ladies and promising a future together, it had to have an impact. That last one especially had to be traumatic. To be talking to someone one day about the future and then a couple months later that person has no future...I know what it's like first hand to talk to someone and a few weeks later that person is dead, unexpectedly, at a very young age. You don't get over it. My point being, Flo's death just ended up another issue that Mary and Diana refused to communicate on, and because it was Flo and it was death, it was a heavier issue than one person felt upstaged and left behind by the other and one person felt the other wasn't supportive or was jealous. Flo's death was unspoken, but it was hanging over their heads just the same.

Had Flo lived I don't even think Mary would have written her book, because a lot of the book focuses on Flo and Diana. Mary couldn't have written the story without including Flo, and I don't think Mary would have revealed Flo's story to tell if Flo were alive to tell it herself, if she chose to.

I don't think Flo would have gone to Motown 25 to cause problems. My point in the other message was that if Flo had gone to cause problems, there would have been no debate about whether what she did was "fireworks" or not. Lol

Flo’s death would forever cast a long shadow over Diana and Mary’s future relationship, with some of that perhaps due to shared guilt. Although Mary was far more supportive of Flo, both women wanted her out of the group when realising things couldn’t continue as they had.
Regarding Motown 25, neither Diana or Mary were on their best behaviour that night, with Diana of course going the extra mile.
I find it almost amusing that some have tried to paint a picture of Diana as a veritable saint by coming to the aid of others. Rescuing Adam Ant, guiding Mary to her mark, not to mention suffering the indignity of having two other group members standing side by side. Mary of course is dragged to the snake pit for going off script for 60 seconds and wearing a red frock.
There will of course always be two camps. I’m just happy i have a foot in each one.

[bradsupremes]

I don't think Flo would have gone to Motown 25 to cause problems. My point in the other message was that if Flo had gone to cause problems, there would have been no debate about whether what she did was "fireworks" or not. Lol

Had Flo lived, I don’t think she would have gone to Motown 25 at all. Flo hated Berry and there’s no way she was going to phone it up and try to be happy to be there like others did. She would have sat it out like Gladys. The Supremes reunion still would have been DMC.

[RanRan79]

Had Flo lived, I don’t think she would have gone to Motown 25 at all. Flo hated Berry and there’s no way she was going to phone it up and try to be happy to be there like others did. She would have sat it out like Gladys. The Supremes reunion still would have been DMC.

That's possible. It's also possible that she wouldn't have even been invited, like others. However, there was still a lot of life to live between 1975 [[when we last have Flo's feelings on Berry on record) and 1983. I don't know if there would ever have been an opportunity for reconciliation between Flo and Berry, but I wouldn't have ruled it out.

Had Flo lived and had a successful relaunch of her solo career, and barring that there were no additional controversies between Flo and Berry or Flo and Motown, I could see a scenario where she was invited to participate in the reunion. I think the optics of not having the beloved Florence join the other two original Supremes, who set the benchmark for all future female groups, could have been a potential PR nightmare that hopefully Depasse would have thought smart to avoid. Not to mention if things had continued to stay positive between Flo and the other Supremes, I think Diana and Mary both would have objected to her not being invited. I could see Florence taking part in celebration of the Motown family, and the Supremes in particular, and perhaps less about celebrating Gordy.

But had Flo gone to serve up "fireworks"...Florence knew how to set it off.

[Boogiedown]

…..what becomes of Cindy ? Eighth row ?

[sup_fan]

Joking aside, the question has to be asked, how much rehearsal did the Supremes need? I get Floy's point about rehearsals, but I don't think most of the acts really needed much. The Tempts and Tops might have needed time to get their spot together, especially since they were playing off of each other. But the Tempts and Tops were also currently live acts who were already doing these songs and most of the choreography. I guarantee the Jacksons probably didn't show up at the venue that day and that was their first rehearsal for the show. I can understand the need they would have had to get some practice in beforehand.

Both Diana and Mary could probably sing the songs intended for the medley in their sleep. For Diana the exception was probably "Someday", but she could have re-familiarized herself with the lyrics to that in the months, weeks or days before the taping. The group wasn't going to do any intricate choreography. There wasn't a need for mic stands, so with the three singers standing together, they sing the freaking songs and call it a day. There couldn't have been much that was complicated regarding their set that they couldn't handle with a last minute rehearsal.

Of course we'll never really know because the medley was scrapped and reduced to the one number Diana apparently couldn't remember.

i agree about the lack of rehearsal and the medley. diana had been using a sup medley in her act for years. actually she had used several. the idea of the producers trying to say "we're going to have 3 weeks of rehearsals prior to taping" obviously would have never occurred. everyone probably assumed there'd only be the day-of rehearsal. so why wouldn't the arrangers reach out to Diana and say "hey you have several medleys and since you'll be singing lead, what do you think about our using one of your existing medleys?"

that would have solved some of the rehearsal issues. the band/orchestra would have all been given their music well ahead of time and have done their own rehearsals. sure there's still sound checks, lighting, etc so i know it's not just the music itself. but it's not like they were using special set pieces or a fog machine or crazy lighting effects.

[sup_fan]

Had Flo lived, I don’t think she would have gone to Motown 25 at all. Flo hated Berry and there’s no way she was going to phone it up and try to be happy to be there like others did. She would have sat it out like Gladys. The Supremes reunion still would have been DMC.

i agree. look at David and Eddie - they were on Berry's shit list and so not part of the reunion. had Flo still been alive, there's no reason to assume anything would have been resolved between her and Berry.

but here's an interesting idea

had flo still been alive would she have attended mary's solo debut at NYNY and, like Diana, maybe join in on a chorus of a song. obviously not Someday. but makes an interesting idea

so i think a DMF on Motown 25 is a no go. but maybe other little reunions would have happened. also like how Mary attended Diana's show in LA in 1980 that was part of her tv special diana. maybe if flo was there and both she and Mary joined Diana for a chorus of Reach out and touch, that would have stayed in the special

[sup_fan]

Let's have some perspective here. The "fireworks" of Mary in question were:

-Mary deciding [[with Cindy) to manipulate the volumes of their mics to ensure the two of them are heard.

-Mary going off script to include some Motown family members who had passed on.

-Mary changing her gown from the "agreed" upon colors.

-Mary and Cindy deciding to match Diana's movements on stage.

-Mary calling out to Berry when she was not charged with that task.

While I only have a problem with one of these things [[the last point, Mary knew that wasn't her place), none of them can really be considered "fireworks". Certainly wouldn't have been considered that if we were talking about any other group. JRT wrote that Mary promised there would be fireworks. If she really did say that, the lady really didn't understand the definition.

On the other hand, if Diana somehow overheard Mary's rumored promise of fireworks, Diana understood the assignment. Pushing on Mary, and later shoving Mary's hand down, would technically fall under the term of "fireworks". Mary's promise could have been fulfilled had she popped Diana in the mouth at either the first or second breech of conduct. The fact that Mary didn't tells me she didn't have the fireworks in her heart that people believe she did.

I'll tell you one thing, Flo would have known how to do fireworks at Motown 25. You can bet on that.

the fireworks might have been part of the things we don't see on the tape. both things that were cut and things backstage. now i definitely agree that i'm getting deep into speculation here, so i want to note that i'm no more certain of these things than other fans. the problems might be that mary's whole approach to working on the special and with Suzanne were plagued with issues. she asked for a solo doing How Lucky, which would never have happened. and some fan mentioned that should have been contractually agreed to, which it most likely wasn't. other fans have stated that Cindy said there was a lot of drinking and drug use going on. now we don't know specifically that mary was using any of this on this night. we do know that she did use coke a lot, per her own books. so i don't think it's a stretch to assume she was using.

so how difficult was she backstage to handle? she mentions been upset that her solo number was cut - how did that impact her attitude that night? we can see a glimpse of her dancing while singing the lead on Someday - when she took over the lead did she step even further forward? dance around a bit? walk around a little on stage? again, i have no specific idea one way or the other.

did mary pour lighter fluid on the set and ignite it - no. did she walk out to center stage and squat and lay a dump - no. did she raise her middle finger and tell berry to eat her pussy - no. but she could have been loud, rude, disrespectful to the staff and backstage, snorting coke, skipping her speech, causing disruption during the short reunion by taking over the lead and moving ahead of diana on stage, disregarding one direction after another. in the end, perhaps it was more like that obnoxious drunk coworker at the Christmas party that just acts a fool, pisses everyone off

plus she was on very shaky ground with Suzanne, berry and motown. i know the label fucked lots of things up in the 70s but by many many accounts mary and pedro were nightmares to work with and major contributors to the huge group problems and fighting. and that all happened just 5 or 6 years prior to Motown 25

so we talk about how there's no way that Flo would ever have been invited back to a motown reunion. and how David and Eddie were on the blackball list too. frankly it's rather shocking they did ask mary since things were so sour between her and the label

[reese]

i agree about the lack of rehearsal and the medley. diana had been using a sup medley in her act for years. actually she had used several. the idea of the producers trying to say "we're going to have 3 weeks of rehearsals prior to taping" obviously would have never occurred. everyone probably assumed there'd only be the day-of rehearsal. so why wouldn't the arrangers reach out to Diana and say "hey you have several medleys and since you'll be singing lead, what do you think about our using one of your existing medleys?"

Honestly, we don't know that didn't happen. Given that Gil Askey [longtime Supremes musical director] was the music supervisor for MOTOWN 25, in a pinch, he might have had some old Supremes medleys from his time with the group and had them dusted off.

From reading J. Randy's last Diana book, it seems as if Diana was first approached about MOTOWN 25 in February of 1983. He doesn't say when she finally agreed to appear. But he did write that both Diana and Mary were somewhat ambivalent was first approached. I gather these delays didn't help in having a comfortable rehearsal even if you knew the songs.

By comparison, I still think some of the other hits medleys [Tempts/Tops, Miracles, Jacksons] were pre-recorded. So them having a same day rehearsal probably wasn't too bad. But even Martha complained that the arrangement done for HEAT WAVE was in the wrong key. By rehearsal time, if her backing was live, could the orchestra change their arrangement of already printed music? It might be difficult. If she was singing to track, I would guess no.

[reese]

i agree. look at David and Eddie - they were on Berry's shit list and so not part of the reunion. had Flo still been alive, there's no reason to assume anything would have been resolved between her and Berry.

but here's an interesting idea

had flo still been alive would she have attended mary's solo debut at NYNY and, like Diana, maybe join in on a chorus of a song. obviously not Someday. but makes an interesting idea

so i think a DMF on Motown 25 is a no go. but maybe other little reunions would have happened. also like how Mary attended Diana's show in LA in 1980 that was part of her tv special diana. maybe if flo was there and both she and Mary joined Diana for a chorus of Reach out and touch, that would have stayed in the special

I think the possibility of DMF at MOTOWN 25 is strong. Even if Flo and Berry wanted nothing to do with each other, I'm sure Berry and Suzanne still wanted to project the idea of a big, happy family. To have a Supremes reunion without Flo [especially after all of the bad/sad publicity on her in the years before that] would have been the PR nightmare that happened to RTL.

Even though Eddie and David were integral parts of the group, the Tempts enjoyed much success without both. They could get by without inviting them to MOTOWN 25. But if Flo were alive, I can't see them ignoring her that way. If they really didn't want her involved, there probably just wouldn't have been a Supremes reunion.

[Boogiedown]

I wonder how Mary and Cindy would then prep themselves so they could properly perform >alongside< Diana their doing a tailored for her medley ?

[reese]

I wonder how Mary and Cindy would then prep themselves so they could properly perform >alongside< Diana doing a tailored for her medley ?

I don't think the rock and roll medley that Diana was doing at this time would have worked for MOTOWN 25.

If time was of the essence, all would have been better served by doing the Supremes medley featured on Diana's AN EVENING WITH DIANA ROSS album. Maybe Gil could have pulled out the arrangements from that show. In a pinch, I would think the show producers could send someone out to a used record store and buy a copy for all of them to listen to and reacquaint themselves with the music. There were probably hours backstage when they could have been doing this.

[Boogiedown]

I’m cracking up visualizing the scene of The supremes gathered closely around patiently listening to the Diana Ross concert record over and over until they had the sequence memorized Reese ! Good one !

Maybe Adam Ant can be heard rehearsing on the stage nearby? And was he listed on the silver program that night? If so it would’ve sort of given him top billing.

[sup_fan]

I wonder how Mary and Cindy would then prep themselves so they could properly perform >alongside< Diana their doing a tailored for her medley ?

generally diana's medley in her shows included rather faithful backing vocals. like the one on An Evening With.

actually that one would have worked perfectly!! it's a bit out of order but could have been easily adapted

Stop
You can't hurry love
reflections
my world
I hear a symphony

and the slower beat of Symphony could easily segue into Someday

[reese]

I’m cracking up visualizing the scene of The supremes gathered closely around patiently listening to the Diana Ross concert record over and over until they had the sequence memorized Reese ! Good one !

Maybe Adam Ant can be heard rehearsing on the stage nearby? And was he listed on the silver program that night? If so it would’ve sort of given him top billing.

Adam is actually listed first in the program because the names are in alphabetical order.

Artists not listed in the program are the Miracles, Howard Hessman, Tim Reid, John Moschitta, Jr., Martha Reeves, Mary Wells, Jr. Walker, Mary Wilson, and Cindy Birdsong. There were also supposed to be "many more surprise guests" but I have no idea who they are. Maybe those not listed weren't confirmed yet at the time of the program's printing.

[sup_fan]

I’m cracking up visualizing the scene of The supremes gathered closely around patiently listening to the Diana Ross concert record over and over until they had the sequence memorized Reese ! Good one !

Maybe Adam Ant can be heard rehearsing on the stage nearby? And was he listed on the silver program that night? If so it would’ve sort of given him top billing.

haha well at least it would be faithful to many of the 60s DRATS performances. with M and C learning their parts by playing the 45 again and again

[marybrewster]

Honestly, we don't know that didn't happen. Given that Gil Askey [longtime Supremes musical director] was the music supervisor for MOTOWN 25, in a pinch, he might have had some old Supremes medleys from his time with the group and had them dusted off.

From reading J. Randy's last Diana book, it seems as if Diana was first approached about MOTOWN 25 in February of 1983. He doesn't say when she finally agreed to appear. But he did write that both Diana and Mary were somewhat ambivalent was first approached. I gather these delays didn't help in having a comfortable rehearsal even if you knew the songs.

By comparison, I still think some of the other hits medleys [Tempts/Tops, Miracles, Jacksons] were pre-recorded. So them having a same day rehearsal probably wasn't too bad. But even Martha complained that the arrangement done for HEAT WAVE was in the wrong key. By rehearsal time, if her backing was live, could the orchestra change their arrangement of already printed music? It might be difficult. If she was singing to track, I would guess no.

There's a clip on Facebook of Mary performing on some morning talk show in 1982. I'm sure you've all seen it; she's wearing the black and white INK SPOT gown [[or whatever it's called), and Karen and Robin are backing her. Anyways, she brings up Motown 25, and states that she isn't sure if Diana is going to attend. So depending on when Mary was asked, it's interesting that she was aware of it well before Diana.

[bradsupremes]

I think the possibility of DMF at MOTOWN 25 is strong. Even if Flo and Berry wanted nothing to do with each other, I'm sure Berry and Suzanne still wanted to project the idea of a big, happy family. To have a Supremes reunion without Flo [especially after all of the bad/sad publicity on her in the years before that] would have been the PR nightmare that happened to RTL.

Even though Eddie and David were integral parts of the group, the Tempts enjoyed much success without both. They could get by without inviting them to MOTOWN 25. But if Flo were alive, I can't see them ignoring her that way. If they really didn't want her involved, there probably just wouldn't have been a Supremes reunion.

Even if Suzanne and Gordy wanted her and that would be a big IF since Gordy wanted nothing to do with her after her firing, do you think Flo would have agreed? If there’s one thing Flo wasn’t able to do was hide her feelings. She was true to herself and by her own admission she wasn’t going to dance to anyone’s tune unless she wanted to. I have a hard time believing Flo would put aside 16 years of bitterness, anger, hurt, and resentment for a TV special just because Suzanne and Gordy wanted her there to show the world the happy family of Motown. For all the hell that she went though in her post-Supremes years, Flo would have told Suzanne and Gordy to stick it where the sun don’t shine. Maybe Flo could have played hardball with Suzanne. After all, Suzanne would have never been at Motown had Florence not been fired. Granted this is all an “what if.” We don’t know the opportunities Flo was about to come into just shortly before her death and we don’t know if there would have been any reconciliation between herself and Gordy but judging by how Motown/Gordy treated Mary during this time period and how Mary fell on hard times post Supremes and Diana’s own rough relationship with Gordy in her departure I don’t believe there would have been any warmth or good feelings restored. All three Supremes would have been on the outs with Gordy.

[reese]

There's a clip on Facebook of Mary performing on some morning talk show in 1982. I'm sure you've all seen it; she's wearing the black and white INK SPOT gown [[or whatever it's called), and Karen and Robin are backing her. Anyways, she brings up Motown 25, and states that she isn't sure if Diana is going to attend. So depending on when Mary was asked, it's interesting that she was aware of it well before Diana.

Although this clip is labeled 1981/1982, I think it is actually from 1983. I don't think MOTOWN 25 was being confirmed about a full year before its taping but I could be wrong. Looking at this interview, right before the host gives Mary some flowers, he asks where she will be spending her birthday "on Sunday?" Mary's birthday is March 6, and in 1983, fell on a Sunday. So it sounds like this interview might have taken place somewhere earlier that week.

In CALL HER MISS ROSS, J. Randy wrote that when Suzanne dePasse contacted Mary to appear, she also said that she hadn't called sooner because she first had to confirm Diana's participation and it had taken so long because she's "such a superstar." Reportedly Mary was put off by this but consented to appear provided she also could do a solo. So it could be that Diana knew first, maybe they knew around the same time, who knows?

[Boogiedown]

Although this clip is labeled 1981/1982, I think it is actually from 1983. I don't think MOTOWN 25 was being confirmed about a full year before its taping but I could be wrong. Looking at this interview, right before the host gives Mary some flowers, he asks where she will be spending her birthday "on Sunday?" Mary's birthday is March 6, and in 1983, fell on a Sunday. So it sounds like this interview might have taken place somewhere earlier that week.

In CALL HER MISS ROSS, J. Randy wrote that when Suzanne dePasse contacted Mary to appear, she also said that she hadn't called sooner because she first had to confirm Diana's participation and it had taken so long because she's "such a superstar." Reportedly Mary was put off by this but consented to appear provided she also could do a solo. So it could be that Diana knew first, maybe they knew around the same time, who knows?

reese you are quite the detective ! So at a minimum there were three weeks where these women had time to plan their appearance.
Reasons being for them to take the time to prepare their reunion, singing smoothly together not being the least, but also to review classic stage moves well beyond who stands where, and of course planning a cohesive group appearance [hair, gowns, shoes, earings ....] as it turned out, Diana looks more as though it's the Pointer Sisters she's expecting to come out to join her.



Diana kinda hogs most of the ending to the show, however noticing in this clip as it fades, it looks like the evening closes out with Berry huggin' and kissin' on Mary .

[milven]

Hoe prophetic Mary was in the clip above. When asked if there would ever be a Supremes reunion, Mary said that Motown was doing a 25th Anniversary show in a few years, and that she will be there. She said she did not know if Diana would be there, but if so, that might be a quick reunion they might have for a minute.

And that is what it was. A reunion for a minute

[Boogiedown]

You might have a point, though, considering if the reason Diana stopped singing is because she forgot the lyrics, having not had a real rehearsal for a song she probably hadn't sung in 13 years. I still think my scenario of Diana's stomach still acting up and she suddenly had to fart or take a dump and it took her by surprise, as the reason why she suddenly stopped singing, is the more likely reason.

oh my !! hee haw !!! lol!

[Boogiedown]

From what I have read, Mary delivered the unseen speech in a tight black gown and changed into the red one for the finale..

So, no footage of Mary's speech?? How many other stars spoke as well that night, with those parts cut out?? Stevie speaks as does Marvin.
I'm wondering because why was this spoken part assigned to Mary, when already another Supreme, Diana Ross , had a good chunk of the dialogue that night?

Why wasn't it offered to other Motown alumni, say Levi Stubbs or Melvin Franklin? [and of course on answer might be maybe it was but they declined].


added: also when did Mary speak then ? early on, before the big reunion? that seems anticlimactic for her to appear before the Supremes finally coming out on stage.