Beyond Bizarre: Adam Ant and special guest dancer Diana Ross

[sup_fan]

Ive been watching that over and over. Diana looks to be giving Mary an earful. Lots of necessary editing here, from which to salvage very little.
As for SOMEDAY WE'LL BE TOGETHER .....was that the right song choice? I get that they are together again, that the someday is here. But as the Supremes' only song .....they sound terrible [where are The Adantes when you need them??]. They could've saved that song and segued into it just for the grand finale chorus.

Who kisses Diana at 7:53.? I want to guess Norman Whitfield, but his being there seems highly unlikely ...

We someday supposed to be the overall show finale or was it Reach out And Touch? Someday makes sense, due to the sentimental tone of the song and lyric

but it's a shame you didn't have DMC doing Stop. I will say the tv clips of the girls prior to Diana's entrance was nicely done. i love the intro to Stop with all of the clips of the hands!

[reese]

Ive been watching that over and over. Diana looks to be giving Mary an earful. Lots of necessary editing here, from which to salvage very little.
As for SOMEDAY WE'LL BE TOGETHER .....was that the right song choice? I get that they are together again, that the someday is here. But as the Supremes' only song .....they sound terrible [where are The Adantes when you need them??]. They could've saved that song and segued into it just for the grand finale chorus.

Who kisses Diana at 7:53.? I want to guess Norman Whitfield, but his being there seems highly unlikely ...

Considering they had not performed together in 13 years, I think SOMEDAY was an appropriate song for the their reunion. Also remember, SOMEDAY wasn't planned as their only song. They were also supposed to perform a hits medley that was nixed due to lack of rehearsal time.

And yes, that is indeed Norman Whitfield giving Diana a kiss.

[marybrewster]

The session got a lot of coverage. I remember seeing photos of Diana and Patti LaBelle holding hands. During the press conference, Diana seemed really shaken by what had happened on 9/11 and [I think] relayed one of her daughter's experiences as one of those who had to walk out of the city after the attack. At one point, she just seemed totally drained and said "Can we just sing?"

One of my favorite Diana performances EVER was the first baseball game in NY after 9/11. Although it's lipsynched, her "God Bless America" still gives me chills and chokes me up.

[reese]

We someday supposed to be the overall show finale or was it Reach out And Touch? Someday makes sense, due to the sentimental tone of the song and lyric

but it's a shame you didn't have DMC doing Stop. I will say the tv clips of the girls prior to Diana's entrance was nicely done. i love the intro to Stop with all of the clips of the hands!

I forgot about REACH OUT AND TOUCH being the actual final song. But I still think SOMEDAY was meant to be the main finale, given that it only includes the bridge and final verse. It makes sense that the artists would all come back out to that song. REACH OUT AND TOUCH was probably just icing on the cake.

[reese]

One of my favorite Diana performances EVER was the first baseball game in NY after 9/11. Although it's lipsynched, her "God Bless America" still gives me chills and chokes me up.

I remember kicking myself because I didn't see it live. I saw clips of it the next morning, I believe, on one of the morning shows. Of course, I've since seen it on YouTube and it is still a great moment. Wasn't this also around the time Liza did a heartfelt rendition of NEW YORK, NEW YORK at one of the games?

[marybrewster]

Google says:

Reunion: the act or process of being brought togerher again as a unified whole.

Unified whole.

Diana thought this was the Diana Ross Show. Mary thought this was the Mary Wilson Show.

Both acted like A-wholes.

[marybrewster]

I remember kicking myself because I didn't see it live. I saw clips of it the next morning, I believe, on one of the morning shows. Of course, I've since seen it on YouTube and it is still a great moment. Wasn't this also around the time Liza did a heartfelt rendition of NEW YORK, NEW YORK at one of the games?

I think it was the same game.

I've found three clips of Diana singing "God Bless America" at three different events, and all vocals are EXACTLY the same. But for some reason, this one just is magical.

[marybrewster]

#1
https://youtu.be/1WUF89ys6_I

#2
https://youtu.be/lYtDpDM6LTc

#3
https://youtu.be/QqyBZ8aYmmY

Maybe it's the bagpipes, I don't know. But it's perfection.

[reese]

Diana also did a great rendition of GOD BLESS AMERICA on a special the night before the Clinton inauguration. But of course, it didn't have the same emotional punch of the performance after 9/11.

[Boogiedown]

the STOP montage intro is fun, however I think it was also a reminder to the viewers that part of what made the Supremes, the Supremes , was their highly styled and coordinated costumes. Then on Motown 25, they walk out on stage and they look as though they have no idea what the other will be wearing. NOT VERY SUPREMES. Diana looks the least Supremes and, while it bucked the night's protocol , Mary the most.

There must be missing footage on Marvin Gaye performing, or else he went to a lot of trouble to switch to his fancier fuchsia suit just for the finale.

And regarding this thread's initial subject :

RE: The grand finale:
Where the heck is ADAM ANT ??

[RanRan79]

i don't think it's wildly scandalous or criminal that a lead singer is positioned separately from the group. there were times they worked the staging so that the trio was positioned together around 1 mic and also where they were spread out. look at the choreography for YCHL. both on the Sullivan show and in the clips from the Orient trip. or when they did People. And when Mary did Can't Take My Eyes, she was also positioned separately from the group.

the Vandellas did this. The Miracles did this. the Temps did this. The Tops did this. GKATP did this. the Marvelettes did this. the Crystals did this. the Shangri Las did this. the Jackson's did this. the Police did this. the Go Gos did this. En Vogue did this. Destiny's Child did this. the Backstreet Boys did this. Duran Duran did this. etc etc etc etc etc etc

so why is it so appalling this Diana just moved to her typical spot? she seemed genuinely happy when Mary and Cindy arrived on stage. she'd grinning and has her arms around them. but it was time to start singing and she just stepped up as usual. M and C weren't placed back in the orchestra, without spotlights like backing singers were in Diana's stage act [[or let's not forget how M or Pedro or someone did that to S and S during the You Heart Of Me segment on Mike Douglas).

i think the comment earlier that the staging was probably planned for this set up. that's where the cameras were angled and the lighting staged. while in hindsight it wasn't probably the best reaction to do onstage, i do think Diana was simply trying to say "you're supposed to be here while i'm over here, that way everything works" it wasn't probably "hey you stupid whore - back the fuck up where you belong"

I really don't care what other groups were doing. If the other groups all jumped off a bridge, did the Supremes have to do it too?

This wasn't 1965 and these weren't young girls. It was 1983 and the Supremes were 40 year olds. Why did Diana need to be in front? It's not that the act itself is terribly criminal, of course. It's all the crap tied into it: that Diana Ross is the reason for the season, and she proved the mentality by the way she reacted to Mary and Cindy matching her steps.

By 1983 Diana Ross was a seasoned performer. She knew damn well it wasn't her job to tell another artist she's on stage with- mid song- where to stand. I don't know if Diana thought of Mary as a "stupid whore", but she surely was thinking "back the fuck up where you belong" and followed through on the thought.

Mary- and I assume Cindy, since she went along with it- did not want to stand behind Diana. I don't think there was anything wrong with that. She wanted the group to look like three equals. She probably wanted to feel like she was Diana's equal, having lived in her shadow for so long. [[And of course by "equal" I'm referring to their status as entertainers and certainly not their humanity.) Mary took steps- no pun intended- to feel better. Diana took steps to remind Mary her place and to me that's sad. Just how much more of the spotlight did Diana need?

[RanRan79]

Google says:

Reunion: the act or process of being brought togerher again as a unified whole.

Unified whole.

Diana thought this was the Diana Ross Show. Mary thought this was the Mary Wilson Show.

Both acted like A-wholes.

I disagree. I don't think Mary thought it was her show. Everything she did, with the possible exception of changing her gown, if that indeed happened, was about the whole group. I take that back, the "Berry come on down" thing was definitely Mary trying to make herself more part of the show. I still wouldn't describe Mary's actions that night as "A-holeish". Diana on the other hand...

[RanRan79]

It really is too bad that the medley was cut, although it might have been a good thing since Diana wasn't in the best of voice. But I would have loved it if they had done "Where Did Our Love Go" in particular.

Perhaps instead of negotiating a solo spot for "How Lucky", it might have been cooler if Mary suggested they do the medley and spread the lead vocals around, especially since Diana wasn't at her best. She wouldn't have to sing quite so much. And Mary was sounding great.

[jim aka jtigre99]

From what I have read, Mary delivered the unseen speech in a tight black gown and changed into the red one for the finale. If you look at the Supremes compared to some other Motown groups, yes those singing background were separated from the lead singer but only with the Supremes did the background slowly start to be positioned behind the lead singer and when it became Diana Ross & The Supremes, they were positioned a ridiculously long distance away. Berry may have felt it was a way to push Diana ahead or perhaps Diana had such an ego, such a competitiveness that it all had to be focused on her. I don't know. But standing side by side on this reunion would have been so much better in terms of unity and celebration and I think Miss Ross was not having any of that. I think years of Motown putting Mary Wilson in what they thought was her "place" only brought out a need to show herself. Did Diana act professionally, no! Did Mary act up, yes. Did Cindy know what was going on with this, probably not. There were years of tension building up to this reunion that we do not really know about and we honestly don't know either of them to know the whole story or how they really felt.

[sup_fan]

I forgot about REACH OUT AND TOUCH being the actual final song. But I still think SOMEDAY was meant to be the main finale, given that it only includes the bridge and final verse. It makes sense that the artists would all come back out to that song. REACH OUT AND TOUCH was probably just icing on the cake.

and maybe the Supremes medley was to merge into Someday, hence it starting in the middle of the song

[reese]

the STOP montage intro is fun, however I think it was also a reminder to the viewers that part of what made the Supremes, the Supremes , was their highly styled and coordinated costumes. Then on Motown 25, they walk out on stage and they look as though they have no idea what the other will be wearing. NOT VERY SUPREMES. Diana looks the least Supremes and, while it bucked the night's protocol , Mary the most.

There must be missing footage on Marvin Gaye performing, or else he went to a lot of trouble to switch to his fancier fuchsia suit just for the finale.

And regarding this thread's initial subject :

RE: The grand finale:
Where the heck is ADAM ANT ??

You can see Adam at 7:58.

Watching this again, I notice that there is slightly different footage here than what I am used to seeing on the home video. The camera stays on the shot of Martha and Stevie a bit longer here. You can see Ashford and Simpson as well. After the show originally aired, I think the producers made an effort to make A&S less visible in the finale as their performance didn't make broadcast or home video.

According to Martha, she was supposed to do a duet with Marvin but he didn't show up for the rehearsal. She gave him a copy of the rehearsal on a Walkman but he never returned it. Looking at photos, it seems that she ended up doing it with Smokey, as a photo of them appeared in PEOPLE magazine's coverage of the show.

[Spreadinglove21]

I seem to recall reading in Call Her Miss Ross [[FWIW) that during the Reach Out and Touch finale Diana was telling people to get out of her way and she maneuvered herself to place herself in a position where she could be the focal point swaying over everyone else on stage?

[sup_fan]

You can see Adam at 7:58.

Watching this again, I notice that there is slightly different footage here than what I am used to seeing on the home video. The camera stays on the shot of Martha and Stevie a bit longer here. You can see Ashford and Simpson as well. After the show originally aired, I think the producers made an effort to make A&S less visible in the finale as their performance didn't make broadcast or home video.

According to Martha, she was supposed to do a duet with Marvin but he didn't show up for the rehearsal. She gave him a copy of the rehearsal on a Walkman but he never returned it. Looking at photos, it seems that she ended up doing it with Smokey, as a photo of them appeared in PEOPLE magazine's coverage of the show.

interesting - so they had planned a larger appearance by Martha? but why would she be duetting with one of the male artists? she never did duets at motown. it's great that perhaps they didn't totally ignore her contribution but odd still

[captainjames]

As far as Motown 25 or Motown anything and regarding Diana and Mary and anyone else back stage telling Mary to do this or do that, does anyone think that on National television in front of million of viewers that this was appropriate to do ?

I don't care if it was Mary wearing something different, Diana grabing, pushing, shoving, slapping, or moving up on stage and Cindy and Mary going off script. Do anyone think this was the right way to handle this ? Why in front of everyone ? Why show up to act up ? Just don't come !!! Leave !!! Tell me at rehearsal or call me on the phone but the fans tuned in and paid to see a reunion not a couple of women pissed off about something that no one knows about or really cares about.

Thank you Berry for help making them stars but they helped put you on the map as well and you don't own them so its their right to leave or go somewhere else if you can't handle or pay the magnitude of their stardom.

So whatever was troubling Mary and Diana was something only they knew and if other Motown stars were backstage telling Mary to go out on stage and act up then they are just as much at fault. If Mary told Cindy to go for hers because she was going to go for hers then I have to question .....go for what ?? We loved you as Mary Wilson the one in the middle and that is what we remembered or at least I did.

[jobeterob]

My memory of the Supremes on M25 is there was the various performance clips of the Supremes after Diana’s entrance and performance - and then the reunion started and it was immediately overtaken by Smokey and others and it was over

It was SO disappointing - I went “what the heck?”

It was even a reunion

I didn’t care who sang what line or where they stood or if Mary was singing the Johnny Bristol man parts or whatever - it was just bloody disappointing - no blame, no fault, just astounding disappointment

[Boogiedown]

My memory of the Supremes on M25 is there was the various performance clips of the Supremes after Diana’s entrance and performance - and then the reunion started and it was immediately overtaken by Smokey and others and it was over

It was SO disappointing - I went “what the heck?”

It was even a reunion

I didn’t care who sang what line or where they stood or if Mary was singing the Johnny Bristol man parts or whatever - it was just bloody disappointing - no blame, no fault, just astounding disappointment

would you call that scattered brief glimpse of what was expected to be the long-awaited grand reunion performance of the biggest girl group of all time …. as presented …..

…. beyond bizarre ??

[jobeterob]

woulf you call that scattered brief glimpse of what was expected to be the long-awaited grand reunion performance of the biggest girl group of all time …. as presented …..

…. beyond bizarre ??

Yes

The reunion was a pile of doggie do - at least until all the other artists were out there

[Boogiedown]

Quite frankly my opinion of all three of them drops from viewing this. How in the world did they think they could pull this off successfully by winging it ?? Why were they willing to make it a crap shoot that their reunion would be anything less than top notch? They didn’t take it seriously and so instead it turned into something akin to a Saturday Night Live skit.

[Ollie9]

Everything in hindsight, but it probably would have been much better for Diana and the groups legacy had she chose not to appear at all.
She was partly pressurised into going, therefore turned up with totally the wrong mindset in let’s get this thing over with ASAP.
Had she not appeared, i wonder if the Supremes tribute/reunion might have been singled down to various film clips, or perhaps Mary as an original Supreme being handed a solo spot singing a Supremes number. Food for thought.

[reese]

Everything in hindsight, but it probably would have been much better for Diana and the groups legacy had she chose not to appear at all.
She was partly pressurised into going, therefore turned up with totally the wrong mindset in let’s get this thing over with ASAP.
Had she not appeared, i wonder if the Supremes tribute/reunion might have been singled down to various film clips, or perhaps Mary as an original Supreme being handed a solo spot singing a Supremes number. Food for thought.

I don't know if she could have avoided appearing at MOTOWN 25. A Motown anniversary special without arguably their biggest star? I'm sure Diana's participation was part of the pitch dePasse made to NBC when she was trying to sell the special. [Note: she did decline MOTOWN 30 but that was really a tribute to black entertainment, not just Motown. And even then, they still acknowledged her with Whoopi Goldberg's opening monologue.]

That said, if Diana she didn't participate in M25, maybe they could have done an expanded girl groups section with video clips and performances from members of the Supremes, the Vandellas, and the Marvelettes?

[sup_fan]

i think there was really no way Diana could NOT appear on the show. it would have appeared wildly ungracious of her not being willing to acknowledge the label the helped her achieve her mega success.

and i think someone's point on here is quite relevant. it was absolutely idiotic for the producers and for the 3 women to approach this in such a haphazard way. the Supremes reunion was being touted as THE event of the night. the only other event that might have held a candle was the J5 reunion, but this evening was just prior to MJ's mega success [[or was his mega success partly fueled by this night?)

i do think blame falls on Diana for taking what appears to be such a flippant approach to this event. regardless of whether or not she was really interested, the fact remains it was to be a media juggernaut and so she should have approached it with her typical degree of perfectionism. the Central Park date was another mega event and she invested countless hours into that planning. while not nearly as complex, the reunion was definitely at a similar level in terms of national interest.

[sup_fan]

or maybe another way to look at what might have made the night a success, perhaps Diana should have called Mary first lol

[RanRan79]

Everything in hindsight, but it probably would have been much better for Diana and the groups legacy had she chose not to appear at all.
She was partly pressurised into going, therefore turned up with totally the wrong mindset in let’s get this thing over with ASAP.
Had she not appeared, i wonder if the Supremes tribute/reunion might have been singled down to various film clips, or perhaps Mary as an original Supreme being handed a solo spot singing a Supremes number. Food for thought.

I get it, but I kind of disagree. If there is a such thing as "should have been", Diana should have been there. The night was, after all, meant to celebrate Motown. However, Diana, with and without the Supremes, was a big part of the Motown legacy. I think to appear, for both Diana and Mary, should have been seen by both as a small celebration even of themselves- as the Supremes- and what they accomplished. And even if the night was secondary, or in conjunction, a celebration for Berry, with everything he had done for her career, regardless of the tension, for her not to appear would have been a little funky.

All Diana had to do was be on her best behavior. No one would have ever known about Mary going off script if Mary hadn't told the story in her book years later. No one would have known about Mary and Cindy's decision to sing softly at the mic check if Mary hadn't told the story in her book years later. No one would have known Mary went against the color coordination with the red dress if it hadn't been reported in some book years later. [[Cindy's dress has always looked off white to me. Diana was in black and silver. The two didn't seem to match, so when first viewing the program, I never thought they were supposed to be matching, and I find it hard to believe the folks at home thought it either.) And no one would have ever known Mary and Cindy agreed to match Diana's steps on stage if Mary hadn't told the story in her book years later. None of those things were such that the audience, and later the viewing public, would have noticed, thought about, or cared about.

Diana's physical actions were the only thing that couldn't be concealed because she did it in front of everybody. She wasn't feeling very well, recovering from an illness. It was the night before her 40th birthday, and I have to imagine there was some anxiety about that milestone. She was nervous about Berry. She was nervous about Mary [[as I suspect what someone said earlier in the thread, about Diana having heard Mary was writing a book, could be true). She was nervous about seeing old Motown folks she hadn't seen in years, who maybe didn't have a high opinion of her. And she lost it on stage.

Okay Ollie, yeah, I see your point.

[RanRan79]

i think there was really no way Diana could NOT appear on the show. it would have appeared wildly ungracious of her not being willing to acknowledge the label the helped her achieve her mega success.

and i think someone's point on here is quite relevant. it was absolutely idiotic for the producers and for the 3 women to approach this in such a haphazard way. the Supremes reunion was being touted as THE event of the night. the only other event that might have held a candle was the J5 reunion, but this evening was just prior to MJ's mega success [[or was his mega success partly fueled by this night?)

i do think blame falls on Diana for taking what appears to be such a flippant approach to this event. regardless of whether or not she was really interested, the fact remains it was to be a media juggernaut and so she should have approached it with her typical degree of perfectionism. the Central Park date was another mega event and she invested countless hours into that planning. while not nearly as complex, the reunion was definitely at a similar level in terms of national interest.

But would we even be talking about the reunion in such negative terms if not for what Diana did? Mary and Cindy sounded fine, Diana wasn't in the best of voice, but the little bit of singing of "Someday" Diana did, and the harmony of Mary and Cindy, sounded just fine to me. There was no intricate choreography...or any choreography at all. It was just three singers standing on stage singing. Preschoolers could have done that. [[Although the preschoolers might have erupted into something physical, knowing preschoolers as I do.)

You might have a point, though, considering if the reason Diana stopped singing is because she forgot the lyrics, having not had a real rehearsal for a song she probably hadn't sung in 13 years. I still think my scenario of Diana's stomach still acting up and she suddenly had to fart or take a dump and it took her by surprise, as the reason why she suddenly stopped singing, is the more likely reason.

[Ollie9]

I get it, but I kind of disagree. If there is a such thing as "should have been", Diana should have been there. The night was, after all, meant to celebrate Motown. However, Diana, with and without the Supremes, was a big part of the Motown legacy. I think to appear, for both Diana and Mary, should have been seen by both as a small celebration even of themselves- as the Supremes- and what they accomplished. And even if the night was secondary, or in conjunction, a celebration for Berry, with everything he had done for her career, regardless of the tension, for her not to appear would have been a little funky.

All Diana had to do was be on her best behavior. No one would have ever known about Mary going off script if Mary hadn't told the story in her book years later. No one would have known about Mary and Cindy's decision to sing softly at the mic check if Mary hadn't told the story in her book years later. No one would have known Mary went against the color coordination with the red dress if it hadn't been reported in some book years later. [[Cindy's dress has always looked off white to me. Diana was in black and silver. The two didn't seem to match, so when first viewing the program, I never thought they were supposed to be matching, and I find it hard to believe the folks at home thought it either.) And no one would have ever known Mary and Cindy agreed to match Diana's steps on stage if Mary hadn't told the story in her book years later. None of those things were such that the audience, and later the viewing public, would have noticed, thought about, or cared about.

Diana's physical actions were the only thing that couldn't be concealed because she did it in front of everybody. She wasn't feeling very well, recovering from an illness. It was the night before her 40th birthday, and I have to imagine there was some anxiety about that milestone. She was nervous about Berry. She was nervous about Mary [[as I suspect what someone said earlier in the thread, about Diana having heard Mary was writing a book, could be true). She was nervous about seeing old Motown folks she hadn't seen in years, who maybe didn't have a high opinion of her. And she lost it on stage.

Okay Ollie, yeah, I see your point.

The point rather being, what would have happened had Diana simply been to poorly to attend that fateful night. It could very easily have happened.
Is it likely that Mary as an original Supreme would have been allowed to front a Supremes tribute of sorts?.
Could Diana by not attending have received an even worse media backlash then she already did?.

[Boogiedown]

If Mary hadn’t written anything about the night , not knowing any of that , just watching this brief shared stage time that aired and judging it on its own merit, anybody looking forward with anticipation to this long awaited reunion would have asked , “That’s it ???!!” Or to quote Jobeterob’s reaction, “what a pile of doggy do.”

[reese]

If Mary hadn’t written anything about the night , not knowing any of that , just watching this brief shared stage time that aired and judging it on its own merit, anybody looking forward with anticipation to this long awaited reunion would have asked , “That’s it ???!!” Or to quote Jobeterob’s reaction, “what a pile of doggy do.”

Two months passed between the taping of the show and its airdate. Stories about the incident between Diana and Mary had already appeared in the press before the show even aired. The week after after the taping, PEOPLE magazine did a story and said something like "Diana Ross who appeared to shove Mary Wilson..." Right On! magazine published something similar.

So by the time the show actually was broadcast, I'm sure a lot of people knew something had happened. Myself, in my youthful naivete, I actually thought I would see a push or a shove. When I didn't, I assumed it wasn't true. Of course, this was before I knew of the wonders that could be achieved in an editing room.

Their biggest group reduced to the bridge of their final hit together and they were promoting it as a reunion? I was certainly disappointed. I distinctly remember my mother saying "They didn't sing enough for me." But now after years of revelations, I just take the performance for what it is.

[after you]

Why would any one bring this up one something that happened decades ago it’s beyond bizarre who cares

[Boogiedown]

Well Reese, what choice do you have

Reese , so the order of performances are different for what aired on TV and as put together for a DVD release ….. and in one Adam Ant performs in the middle, the other toward the end. That night, in truth he must have been toward the end [talk about adding to a downgrade finale] or else why in the heck was Diana Ross on stage in the middle of the show.
Come to think of it , why was she on stage even at the end? Her entrance has her running onstage from the back of the theatre.

Added: I'm guessing as Adam is performing, depasse is reviewing with Diana her upcoming segments.

[reese]

Well Reese, what choice do you have

Reese , so the order of performances are different for what aired on TV and as put together for a DVD release ….. and in one Adam Ant performs in the middle, the other toward the end. That night, in truth he must have been toward the end [talk about adding to a downgrade finale] or else why in the heck was Diana Ross on stage in the middle of the show.
Come to think of it , why was she on stage even at the end? Her entrance has her running onstage from the back of the theatre.

Added: I'm guessing as Adam is performing, depasse is reviewing with Diana her upcoming segments.

Diana began the evening actually seated in the audience with Berry. So she could have left him at any point to get backstage and then back into the lobby for her entrance.

Re Adam, as I wrote earlier, his performance was actually part of a segment that included T.G. Sheppard and Jose Feliciano. Unless there were taping concerns [[set changes, lighting, etc.), I don't see them putting such a segment near the finale during the actual performance. But the dvd booklet doesn't include the running order of the actual show so its anyone's guess.

[TheMotownManiac]

As has already been mentioned, Mary did not take over the lead of the song but was filling in the gap left when Diana appeared to lose her way.
She can be clearly seen trying to offer it back when Diana shrieks out Smokey Robinson.
I think Marys very short speech was something she felt the right thing to do. No one else was ever going to mention Flo otherwise. I would say giving Martha Reeves a thirty second spot was more a disgrace then a heartfelt gesture such as that.
Diana manhandling another performer would most likely be seen as a ‘tad more unprofessional then Mary donning a red frock that night. With DR reducing the Supremes segment to just one song, i to would have been pissed.

filling in what gap?? did you hear a gap?? Did you see one? Certainly not on the video from the televised special. Mary said that diana had forgotten the words, but I don’t believe everything Mary says especially when she’s trying to deflect blame for some thing she did. What we do see however, it’s Mary’s singing loudly and, to put it mildly, drawing attention to herself with her movements. I have never seen or heard anyone but you suggested that Mary was giving the lead back to diana. Offering it back, how? On a platter? With a microphone? With some sort of grand gesture suggesting that it’s Diana‘s turn? How exactly is she clearly offering her the lead when the camera is so far away? The short straw poll I took suggests otherwise. We see Mary showboating until smokey comes out on stage and she shuts up.

I agree with you about Martha and Mary Wells and even the things mary wilson had to say in her speech, but she was provided a script and she purposely ignored it. My friend at SAG-AFTRA told me that if what Diana did was not OK with the producers, she could have been fined. He also says, the union does not compare one persons behavior with another when it comes to unprofessional behavior. However, he said that Mary would be in a whole lot more trouble with the union for everything she did and was lucky she got off with being banned from all future Motown productions and not a stiff fine Plus an inability to secure a union contract for a specific period of time. Being pissed or not liking what you are being given to say does it mean anything when you have agreed to do it on a live television event. If you are unhappy, you go to the producer and state your case. Mary didn’t give a damn she just wanted it to be what she wanted it to be. He also said, she should have sued Motown productions for breach of contract IF her contract guaranteed her singing the solo of her choice. The case would’ve been a slam dunk in favor of Mary and those kinds of things are litigate it all the time. He does not believe there was an official agreement for her to seeing how lucky can you get because she would have sued.

I wish when I spoke to Cindy about Motown 25, and that I had pressed for a lot more details than I did. I didn’t want it to look like I was trying to pry dirt out of her like I assume so many other fans try to do. I was trying to be casual but we got interrupted and I never really had a chance to get where I wanted to go again. All she told me was that the people backstage were watching Adam Ant and thought it was just awful. They liked that diana went out there, but she did not mention her and I did not think to ask if Suzanne was one of those people. She told me that there was a lot of champagne and other alcoholic beverages backstage and that they had it be in their dressing room. I am guessing this is doing it. When Cindy was not using alcoholic beverages but I cannot swear to it. She also said there was a whole lot of cocaine use backstage that she was surprised of how freely it was being used, but she never said specifically tha Mary used it, Martha told me that.

she also told me that it was Suzanne‘s decision to cut one of the songs in the reunion because there wasn’t time to rehearse them. But I can’t say is she told me Suzanne made the decision of what would be sung, although I think she said that they would do Someday. This is 25 years ago and I can’t remember everything but it makes sense since they were using Someday as the finale of the show to have that be the song they sing. Diana arriving as late as she did for rehearsal is the reason why there wasn’t enough time, so that is on her. Cindy said Diana was sick and all she wanted to do was lay down and get some sleep and that Suzanne was concerned.

[Boogiedown]

Diana began the evening actually seated in the audience with Berry. So she could have left him at any point to get backstage and then back into the lobby for her entrance.

Re Adam, as I wrote earlier, his performance was actually part of a segment that included T.G. Sheppard and Jose Feliciano. Unless there were taping concerns [[set changes, lighting, etc.), I don't see them putting such a segment near the finale during the actual performance. But the dvd booklet doesn't include the running order of the actual show so its anyone's guess.

Sooo likely Adam Ant did not immediately proceed the supremes reunion [I wonder who did ?] and for some reason then Diana Ross was back stage in the middle of the show.

I did notice Diana sitting next to Berry early in the footage…. so her being there was not a secret ????

[Boogiedown]

MotownManiac your informative inputs on this thread have been outstanding and much appreciated

[reese]

Sooo Adam Ant did not immediately proceed the supremes reunion [I wonder who did ?] and for some reason then Diana Ross was back stage in the middle of the show.

I did notice Diana sitting next to Berry early in the footage…. so her being there was not a secret ????

The dvd set contains a reproduction of the silver program that was given out to the audience members. Diana is listed amongst the performers so if this is accurate, no, she wasn't a secret.

[Boogiedown]

The dvd set contains a reproduction of the silver program that was given out to the audience members. Diana is listed amongst the performers so if this is accurate, no, she wasn't a secret.

I would love to see that silver program. I take it the list was random , maybe alphabetical and had nothing to do with the sequence.

Diana Ross was listed , how about The Supremes ?? Or as individuals , Mary and Cindy ?

—— How the heck long was the actual show ?? Eighteen hours ??

[sup_fan]

Why would any one bring this up one something that happened decades ago it’s beyond bizarre who cares

it took you 10x the effort to type out that post than to simply scroll by and ignore

yeah this happened decades ago as did nearly everything related to the group. and yes, this topic resurfaces again and again.

please feel free to start posts on topics you find more compelling. there have been times i've logged on here and thought "oh for fucks sake - ANOTHER thread on some Mary topic" but rather than bitch about it, i try to think up new posts and topics to spark discussion. sometimes they catch on, sometimes not

[Boogiedown]

Yes at the risk
of overbeating this horse, and don’t mean this thread to over dominate , but I’m finding it fascinating and it’ll have to do until the complainers chip in with some interesting topics to their liking for alternative discussions.

A stamp of a successfully invigorating thread for me includes the dismissals from Peas and After you.

I’ll add , I really intended the thread to focus on Diana prancing around Adam Ant , because, agree or not, I truly find that irrational behavior by a superstar to an up and comer she doesn’t know to be beyond bizarre, but all the spin off discussion from it has actually surpassed it .

[sup_fan]

filling in what gap?? did you hear a gap?? Did you see one? Certainly not on the video from the televised special. Mary said that diana had forgotten the words, but I don’t believe everything Mary says especially when she’s trying to deflect blame for some thing she did. What we do see however, it’s Mary’s singing loudly and, to put it mildly, drawing attention to herself with her movements. I have never seen or heard anyone but you suggested that Mary was giving the lead back to diana. Offering it back, how? On a platter? With a microphone? With some sort of grand gesture suggesting that it’s Diana‘s turn? How exactly is she clearly offering her the lead when the camera is so far away? The short straw poll I took suggests otherwise. We see Mary showboating until smokey comes out on stage and she shuts up.

I agree with you about Martha and Mary Wells and even the things mary wilson had to say in her speech, but she was provided a script and she purposely ignored it. My friend at SAG-AFTRA told me that if what Diana did was not OK with the producers, she could have been fined. He also says, the union does not compare one persons behavior with another when it comes to unprofessional behavior. However, he said that Mary would be in a whole lot more trouble with the union for everything she did and was lucky she got off with being banned from all future Motown productions and not a stiff fine Plus an inability to secure a union contract for a specific period of time. Being pissed or not liking what you are being given to say does it mean anything when you have agreed to do it on a live television event. If you are unhappy, you go to the producer and state your case. Mary didn’t give a damn she just wanted it to be what she wanted it to be. He also said, she should have sued Motown productions for breach of contract IF her contract guaranteed her singing the solo of her choice. The case would’ve been a slam dunk in favor of Mary and those kinds of things are litigate it all the time. He does not believe there was an official agreement for her to seeing how lucky can you get because she would have sued.

I wish when I spoke to Cindy about Motown 25, and that I had pressed for a lot more details than I did. I didn’t want it to look like I was trying to pry dirt out of her like I assume so many other fans try to do. I was trying to be casual but we got interrupted and I never really had a chance to get where I wanted to go again. All she told me was that the people backstage were watching Adam Ant and thought it was just awful. They liked that diana went out there, but she did not mention her and I did not think to ask if Suzanne was one of those people. She told me that there was a lot of champagne and other alcoholic beverages backstage and that they had it be in their dressing room. I am guessing this is doing it. When Cindy was not using alcoholic beverages but I cannot swear to it. She also said there was a whole lot of cocaine use backstage that she was surprised of how freely it was being used, but she never said specifically tha Mary used it, Martha told me that.

she also told me that it was Suzanne‘s decision to cut one of the songs in the reunion because there wasn’t time to rehearse them. But I can’t say is she told me Suzanne made the decision of what would be sung, although I think she said that they would do Someday. This is 25 years ago and I can’t remember everything but it makes sense since they were using Someday as the finale of the show to have that be the song they sing. Diana arriving as late as she did for rehearsal is the reason why there wasn’t enough time, so that is on her. Cindy said Diana was sick and all she wanted to do was lay down and get some sleep and that Suzanne was concerned.

great post Maniac. and i agree with your assessment. i'm baffled by how people on here are continually excusing for behavior of the women that night. but i didn't realize the union issues, fines, etc. that could be part of it.

seems like Diana wanted as little as possible to do with the event - be it because she didn't want to reflect on the past, because she was sick, because she felt intimidated by former singers throwing daggers at her. doesn't appear she saw any real benefit by participating other than avoiding public negative perception by NOT participating

seems like mary was the opposite. she saw this as an opportunity to display her goods to a national audience. her approach seems to be more confrontational though. maybe the bitterness from her recent legal battles with motown and being dropped from the label added to her negative attitude

[RanRan79]

The point rather being, what would have happened had Diana simply been to poorly to attend that fateful night. It could very easily have happened.
Is it likely that Mary as an original Supreme would have been allowed to front a Supremes tribute of sorts?.
Could Diana by not attending have received an even worse media backlash then she already did?.

I think it's possible that without Diana, Mary would have been asked to participate to represent the group. It may have been her, Cindy and either Jean or Scherrie.

Had Diana skipped out, she would have been dogged by the media and the public.

[RanRan79]

filling in what gap?? did you hear a gap?? Did you see one? Certainly not on the video from the televised special. Mary said that diana had forgotten the words, but I don’t believe everything Mary says especially when she’s trying to deflect blame for some thing she did. What we do see however, it’s Mary’s singing loudly and, to put it mildly, drawing attention to herself with her movements. I have never seen or heard anyone but you suggested that Mary was giving the lead back to diana. Offering it back, how? On a platter? With a microphone? With some sort of grand gesture suggesting that it’s Diana‘s turn? How exactly is she clearly offering her the lead when the camera is so far away? The short straw poll I took suggests otherwise. We see Mary showboating until smokey comes out on stage and she shuts up.

I agree with you about Martha and Mary Wells and even the things mary wilson had to say in her speech, but she was provided a script and she purposely ignored it. My friend at SAG-AFTRA told me that if what Diana did was not OK with the producers, she could have been fined. He also says, the union does not compare one persons behavior with another when it comes to unprofessional behavior. However, he said that Mary would be in a whole lot more trouble with the union for everything she did and was lucky she got off with being banned from all future Motown productions and not a stiff fine Plus an inability to secure a union contract for a specific period of time. Being pissed or not liking what you are being given to say does it mean anything when you have agreed to do it on a live television event. If you are unhappy, you go to the producer and state your case. Mary didn’t give a damn she just wanted it to be what she wanted it to be. He also said, she should have sued Motown productions for breach of contract IF her contract guaranteed her singing the solo of her choice. The case would’ve been a slam dunk in favor of Mary and those kinds of things are litigate it all the time. He does not believe there was an official agreement for her to seeing how lucky can you get because she would have sued.

I wish when I spoke to Cindy about Motown 25, and that I had pressed for a lot more details than I did. I didn’t want it to look like I was trying to pry dirt out of her like I assume so many other fans try to do. I was trying to be casual but we got interrupted and I never really had a chance to get where I wanted to go again. All she told me was that the people backstage were watching Adam Ant and thought it was just awful. They liked that diana went out there, but she did not mention her and I did not think to ask if Suzanne was one of those people. She told me that there was a lot of champagne and other alcoholic beverages backstage and that they had it be in their dressing room. I am guessing this is doing it. When Cindy was not using alcoholic beverages but I cannot swear to it. She also said there was a whole lot of cocaine use backstage that she was surprised of how freely it was being used, but she never said specifically tha Mary used it, Martha told me that.

she also told me that it was Suzanne‘s decision to cut one of the songs in the reunion because there wasn’t time to rehearse them. But I can’t say is she told me Suzanne made the decision of what would be sung, although I think she said that they would do Someday. This is 25 years ago and I can’t remember everything but it makes sense since they were using Someday as the finale of the show to have that be the song they sing. Diana arriving as late as she did for rehearsal is the reason why there wasn’t enough time, so that is on her. Cindy said Diana was sick and all she wanted to do was lay down and get some sleep and that Suzanne was concerned.

Sorry, but I don't believe any of that. I won't dispute that someone told you that. I dispute SAG-AFTRA gave a crap or that any of Mary's actions that night would have warranted anything other than a backlash from the producers of the show.

Regarding Mary tossing the lead back to Diana, when Mary sings "every night", Diana comes in with the "whoo" and immediately calls out "Smokey Robinson". In the split second between the "whoo" and Smokey's name, Mary gestures to Diana with her hand as if to say "Okay you got it now". But Diana calls out Smokey and Mary keeps singing. Ollie is not the only one who has noticed that, and a few of us in the forum have discussed it before, including in this thread.

[Boogiedown]

forget this i rewatched and withdraw my question.
I’ll use this space to tell you Reese I looked where you suggested and saw Adam standing there to the side in his lonely.

[RanRan79]

great post Maniac. and i agree with your assessment. i'm baffled by how people on here are continually excusing for behavior of the women that night. but i didn't realize the union issues, fines, etc. that could be part of it.

seems like Diana wanted as little as possible to do with the event - be it because she didn't want to reflect on the past, because she was sick, because she felt intimidated by former singers throwing daggers at her. doesn't appear she saw any real benefit by participating other than avoiding public negative perception by NOT participating

seems like mary was the opposite. she saw this as an opportunity to display her goods to a national audience. her approach seems to be more confrontational though. maybe the bitterness from her recent legal battles with motown and being dropped from the label added to her negative attitude

In order for Mary to incur a SAG fine, wouldn't she have to be a member? The scenario doesn't make sense, especially since it's probably damn near common practice for these big events to take place with someone going off script [[without being indecent), missing a mark [[on accident or purpose), or changing a costume [[without being indecent).

Mary's actions that night get way too much coverage around here, while Diana's inexcusable actions do not. I mean folks have no problem calling out Florence for sticking her stomach out on stage one night in 1967 when she was drunk and 23 years old. Diana can push and shove sober at 40 in 1983 and instead of that being the headline, there's a lot of "but Mary...".

Good grief.

[Boogiedown]

Diana can push and shove sober at 40 in 1983 .

Sober? Says who??

[Ollie9]

Sorry, but I don't believe any of that. I won't dispute that someone told you that. I dispute SAG-AFTRA gave a crap or that any of Mary's actions that night would have warranted anything other than a backlash from the producers of the show.

Regarding Mary tossing the lead back to Diana, when Mary sings "every night", Diana comes in with the "whoo" and immediately calls out "Smokey Robinson". In the split second between the "whoo" and Smokey's name, Mary gestures to Diana with her hand as if to say "Okay you got it now". But Diana calls out Smokey and Mary keeps singing. Ollie is not the only one who has noticed that, and a few of us in the forum have discussed it before, including in this thread.

Cheers Ran you just beat me to it. I really wish peeps would take the time to read relevant posts before going on the defensive.
Mary going off script to deliver a short and heartfelt speech appears to be the main point of contention. Devil in a red dress. Hmmm.
Perhaps Someone should have provided Diana with a script on how to act professionally around other performers when their on stage.
I very much agree with you that nothing, as in NOTHING that Mary did that night ranks as bad as Diana physically manhandling another performer while on stage.
She was lucky indeed to be Suzanne’s bestie at the time. Mary sadly never had that luxury.

[reese]

I would love to see that silver program. I take it the list was random , maybe alphabetical and had nothing to do with the sequence.

Diana Ross was listed , how about The Supremes ?? Or as individuals , Mary and Cindy ?

—— How the heck long was the actual show ?? Eighteen hours ??

The list of performers was alphabetical.

Mary and Cindy, as well as some other performers weren't listed at all. However, the program also lists "many more surprise guests." But I have no idea who those might have been.

Re the show, I would assume it probably took at least 3 or 4 hours.