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Thread: Berry, to Mary

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    Berry, to Mary

    In "Dreamgirl", Mary recalls a conversation between she and Berry, where he tells her [[paraphrasing), that she's "too available; you should be more like Diana, unreachable".

    Whether or not that occured, of course, is up for debate. But supposing it did, in what context do you think it was meant? That she was too friendly with the fans? Or too loose with the gentlemen?

    I always assumed it was in regards to the fans. There's stories of she, and Flo, meeting and greeting, while Diana would B line for the limo.

    But I wonder if it was more towards her "antics" offstage? Of ALL people, Berry Gordy should talk. By this time, he was making the rounds with Diana himself; not sure what his definition of "unreachable" was. By that point, he'd also had SIX children, two with women outside of his marriages. So he was a FINE one to talk.

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    At first I thought he meant she made herself too available to men. But Flo made a similar comment that Berry told her she needed to start acting like a star and I wonder if he meant to them both to keep away from the fans.

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    In DREAMGIRL, Mary wrote that Berry had said this because he thought she and Flo were getting too friendly with the fans. But Mary also said she thought Berry was referring to her love life, as he thought she had too many boyfriends. In another interview, I recall Mary saying that other people thought she was "loose".

    It is unfortunate but such sexist attitudes still prevail today. I can only imagine how bad it was back then.

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    i think there were dialogs on both topics. In this specific instance, i think it was regarding fans. being a bit more elusive would create more of a "star" persona and elevate the perception of the singer. but also more importantly that can often help create these mega-stars. sure some singers like Cher or Dolly have been able to parlay their folksy, down home personalities into a mega business. but the Supremes were about glamour, upward mobility, sequins, big splashy Vegas shows and tv specials, etc. Diana of course fit perfectly with this and in creating a diva personality [[meaning that in a complimentary way). I think Berry was trying to encourage F and M to do the same. it would have possibly raised the overall appeal of the group but more importantly it would have demonstrated more alignment with Berry. that means you and he are insync for goals, the path forward, etc and that typically meant he was more invested and interested in you

    there are quite a few stories about mary and men. some are from her own books, some are fan rumors. I'm not going to argue the hypocrisy or double standard - the men of motown [[and typically men in general) were encouraged to tag whatever and whomever they could. meanwhile a woman doing that is considered a slut. Berry would have been very concerned if a "slut" label was being applied to one of the Supremes. that would have been completely incongruous to their brand and reputation. regardless of whether that's fair or not. it was the reality. my guess is Berry was fine so long as there was considerable discretion involved. Mary being photographed out and about with various handsome men, dancing with guys at Whiskey A Go Go, etc - all that's fine and all. but remember, in the 60s, "good girls don't go all the way." the idea of the Sexual Revolution was not part of the sups' image

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    Flo and Mary having more grounded personalities were renowned for taking time to connect with the fans. Diana was always more aloof and separated.
    I took the BG comment to mean she should try and be more like Diana in encouraging less personal contact.

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    In the context of not being "available" to fans, would three "divas" have worked for the group? Yes, there is the appeal of having a member play the "star" role, but how would that have resonated if they all were? I think Mary and Flo played a good Ying for Diana's Yang. The Supremes could have quickly been labeled snooty, or bitches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    In the context of not being "available" to fans, would three "divas" have worked for the group? Yes, there is the appeal of having a member play the "star" role, but how would that have resonated if they all were? I think Mary and Flo played a good Ying for Diana's Yang. The Supremes could have quickly been labeled snooty, or bitches.
    i think Berry recognized their 3 unique personalities and how they shone on stage. if M and F had been real wallflowers or dullards, it's quite possible the supremes story could have been different. sure diana was a diamond but M and F added immensely to the appeal of the group. young girls could identify with each Sup. and in the act, they played up these three personalities - the excited and bubbly diana, the sexy mary, the down home Flo

    that doesn't mean they couldn't have acted more worldly and star-like. the casual nature of M and F played differently than the superstar nature of Diana.

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    I hope Mary had "too many boyfriends." Thank God SOMEBODY was getting laid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    I hope Mary had "too many boyfriends." Thank God SOMEBODY was getting laid.
    Berry Gordy was the original chauvanist pig, do as he says not as he does. He was exasperated with Mary's trysts on more than one occasion but was livid when she made the gossip sheets with Tom Jones. This during a period when he was trying to launch Diana as a soloist. He felt their proper young lady image was being wrecked by these headlines. Mary continued her affair with Jones and had Cindy assist her in keeping this from Ross and Gordy

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    everything was a double standard back then but seems motown was especially backwards.

    i'd also assume that Martha Reeves getting pregnant did nothing to help her career or favor with Berry.

    Mary does bring up an interesting point - in how female fans had no problem with stalking the male singers and all. even if it was just for a hook up, much less dating. but it was very challenging for female singers to find nice guy to date. men don't pursue women like the women pursue the male stars

    of course Pedro was an exception lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Berry Gordy was the original chauvanist pig, do as he says not as he does. He was exasperated with Mary's trysts on more than one occasion but was livid when she made the gossip sheets with Tom Jones. This during a period when he was trying to launch Diana as a soloist. He felt their proper young lady image was being wrecked by these headlines. Mary continued her affair with Jones and had Cindy assist her in keeping this from Ross and Gordy
    haha we also know Berry wasn't the most eloquent and if he was mad, lol, can you imagine what comments he made to Mary about keeping her legs crossed around Tom Jones!! lololol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    everything was a double standard back then but seems motown was especially backwards.

    i'd also assume that Martha Reeves getting pregnant did nothing to help her career or favor with Berry.

    Mary does bring up an interesting point - in how female fans had no problem with stalking the male singers and all. even if it was just for a hook up, much less dating. but it was very challenging for female singers to find nice guy to date. men don't pursue women like the women pursue the male stars

    of course Pedro was an exception lol

    I don't think he cared so much about Martha, by the time she got pregnant her career was all but over.

    Now a yr later when Ross got pregnant, she was swiftly married. Only later did he learn it was his child.

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    However Mary's friendliness with the fans helped her in terms of being able to maintain a career as a performer on the oldies circuit as she developed a loyal fanbase.

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    Gordy had no room to question someone’s “friendliness.” After all, it was he who was ”friendly” with Diana, Chris Clark, Freda Payne, and I’m sure others all around the same time. Not to mention the extra part of friendliness he was having with Margaret Norton and Jeana Jackson that produced two children.

    But you know…double standards.

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    What was the problem with Mary dating Tom Jones? He was a huge star back then--sounds like great publicity to me. I mean come on, Berry went for anything with two legs and a hole in-between and nobody cared. And DR wasn't exactly a nun, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    What was the problem with Mary dating Tom Jones? He was a huge star back then--sounds like great publicity to me. I mean come on, Berry went for anything with two legs and a hole in-between and nobody cared. And DR wasn't exactly a nun, either.
    Tom Jones was married. A Supreme having an affair with a high profile married man was a no-go.

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    Okay--fair enough. I forgot he was married at the time. Do you all believe Mary when she said she didn't know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Okay--fair enough. I forgot he was married at the time. Do you all believe Mary when she said she didn't know?
    my guess is more she didn't care. Tom was just breaking out internationally around the time they met so it's certainly possible she didn't know much about his personal life. but like pretty much everyone at motown, marriage vows were meaningless. everyone hooked up with everyone regardless. so i think Mary's playing with a married man isn't shocking. she'd been playing with Duke who i think was/had been married.

    the issue is this affair wasn't discrete. within the motown family, the motown PR dept could pretty easily control things. but this was a much more bold and defiant tryst

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    Well anything is possible, but I find it hard to believe that nobody in either entourage spoke up, mentioning his marital status.Maybe not on the first date, but eventually somebody had to have ratted him out. On the other hand, as several of you said, wedding vows didn't seem to matter to anybody in the music biz back then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Well anything is possible, but I find it hard to believe that nobody in either entourage spoke up, mentioning his marital status.Maybe not on the first date, but eventually somebody had to have ratted him out. On the other hand, as several of you said, wedding vows didn't seem to matter to anybody in the music biz back then.
    Certainly not to the Chairman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Well anything is possible, but I find it hard to believe that nobody in either entourage spoke up, mentioning his marital status.Maybe not on the first date, but eventually somebody had to have ratted him out. On the other hand, as several of you said, wedding vows didn't seem to matter to anybody in the music biz back then.
    i'm guessing Mary wasn't Tom's first affair. and mary certainly had an eye for the men too. according to Mary's book, the whole thing was sort of set up by the managers and Mary really wasn't too familiar with Tom. maybe/maybe not both were very attractive people so IMO one was looking to score with the other. I believe both had rather high libidos lol.

    anyway, if Mary's version of the story is accurate, then Tom probably thought she was damn hot plus a mega star. so maybe he got his managers and people to get hold of hers and arrange an introduction. that worked out during the girls' next Europe tour [[was it the early 68 one?)

    i would guess none of this is wildly unique. many pop stars and movie stars probably all are eager to score with hot colleagues.

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    Why would Mary's "managers" push her in Tom's direction if Berry had such a big problem with it? Sounds like a good way to get fired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Why would Mary's "managers" push her in Tom's direction if Berry had such a big problem with it? Sounds like a good way to get fired.
    my guess is that Berry didn't care that much if she hooked up with him. or had a few very discrete rendez-vous. but the problem was the tabloids got wind of it. and she was in fan magazines and all. hell the managers probably did all sorts of things but again, discretely.

    had mary gotten her cakes worked without anyone knowing, there wouldn't have been any issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Why would Mary's "managers" push her in Tom's direction if Berry had such a big problem with it? Sounds like a good way to get fired.
    According to Mary's first book, initially it was one of their booking agents that wanted her and Tom to meet and he arranged for them to meet in Germany, where the girls were set to perform at the Bambi ceremony. Maybe since this booking agent was not a Motown employee, he wasn't worried about Berry's wrath. Myself, I wonder why the booking agent would want to play matchmaker with Mary and a married man. Anyway...

    That said, Mary also wrote that once she and Tom's affair made the gossip columns, no one at Motown ever said a word to her about it.

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    haha i think, if the order of events is correct in Mary's book, Tom was a bit of a horn dog and found mary to be beautiful. maybe he saw them on tv or something. he probably started asking his managers to help track her down and introduce them. the manager maybe reached out to an assistant in the office who reached out to someone at one of the theaters tom played at who reached out to someone in the management office of the theater who reached out to th booking agent.

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    i do love Mary's story of when Tom first met the girls. C and M were all dressed, bewigged, made up. D was walking around the dressing room in girdle and bra, no make up, just a wig cap on lol. Tom knocks on the door and Diana screams and runs from the room lol

    makes a great mental image lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i do love Mary's story of when Tom first met the girls. C and M were all dressed, bewigged, made up. D was walking around the dressing room in girdle and bra, no make up, just a wig cap on lol. Tom knocks on the door and Diana screams and runs from the room lol

    makes a great mental image lol
    Surprised that they were still sharing a dressing room by this time? But yes, can you just see Diana? Lol.

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    I believe Mary had a fling with Steve McQueen who was married at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21 View Post
    I believe Mary had a fling with Steve McQueen who was married at the time.
    She said he used to call her his "exotic doll."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Okay--fair enough. I forgot he was married at the time. Do you all believe Mary when she said she didn't know?
    No I don't. He's catholic and always wear a wedding ring. He never denied he was married and his paramours all knew where his loyalty lied.

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    I heard that the big draw about Tom was that he was a big guy and when he gave it to you, you knew you were with a big guy.

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    I didn't believe Mary either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    I heard that the big draw about Tom was that he was a big guy and when he gave it to you, you knew you were with a big guy.
    Well Steve McQueen was rumored to be a “big guy” too. And I realize it’s a stereotype but pedro was Dominican lol. Maybe Mary had a thing for that

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    There used to be an internet chat site called Groupies.com and female groupies would go there and discuss their sordid encounters with rock stars. I learned a great deal there. Smokey Robinson, Tom Jones and David Cassidy had the largest wieners, and Henry Rollins and Greenday's lead singer had the smallest, according to them. The only thing else I remember was that every one of them seemed to hate Rod Stewart. It was good trash

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    I bring so much to this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    I bring so much to this forum.
    This made me LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    I bring so much to this forum.
    Well that certainly was news to me that you posted above. So Smokey lives in the Land of the Giants.

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    lol ok so how many of us just searched for groupies.com

    ��[♀️

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    Hahaha I guess the forum is so old it doesn’t recognize emoji lol. That was supposed to be the Hand Raise one lol

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    Hee hee! Just trying to make people laugh! Groupies.com no longer exists that I know of. They probably got sued for discussing wiener size. Who knows? Incidentally, I am now reading I'm With the Band: Confessions of a Groupie, by Pamela deBarres. It's great trash.

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    wow ....this is certainly old news ....Honestly, I think Berry was just trying to preserve the image of the Supremes. What he did in bed or out no one cared because he wasn't recording. As far as Mary and Tom, she aware he was married but I have no idea what he told her about his marriage. Last but not least who brought up the rumor about his equipment and who verified that ? Last I heard it was average. Im just saying....facts please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post
    wow ....this is certainly old news ....Honestly, I think Berry was just trying to preserve the image of the Supremes. What he did in bed or out no one cared because he wasn't recording. As far as Mary and Tom, she aware he was married but I have no idea what he told her about his marriage. Last but not least who brought up the rumor about his equipment and who verified that ? Last I heard it was average. Im just saying....facts please.
    i've heard that it was all an act too. the extra tight pants. the prominent bulge. he is irish and, you know lol. there could be some truth to the stereotypes lol

    but back to less sordid topics lol. yes i think you hit it on the head. Berry was totally concerned about the image. even today there is still a bit of a stigma of women that are too sexually active or promiscuous. it was even more of an issue in the late 60s. it's a total double standard since the men of motown were banging everything and everyone. wouldn't be surprised if detroit opened a location of the Free Clinic in one of the rooms at Hitsville just to keep a flow of penicillin going lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i've heard that it was all an act too. the extra tight pants. the prominent bulge. he is irish and, you know lol. there could be some truth to the stereotypes lol
    Ooh, our UK members are probably steaming--Jones is Welsh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sansradio View Post
    Ooh, our UK members are probably steaming--Jones is Welsh.
    As welsh as a potato and leek pie..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    As welsh as a potato and leek pie..
    With Dame Shirley Bassey on top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sansradio View Post
    Ooh, our UK members are probably steaming--Jones is Welsh.
    hahaha - oops. well i've not been to Wales nor have i necessarily heard a lot of "rumors" of that region lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    As welsh as a potato and leek pie..
    is that recipe 2 potatoes and a leek? lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    is that recipe 2 potatoes and a leek? lol
    Three Hail Marys added to your prayers tonight young man.

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    She knew Tom was married, she was doing him in his wife’s bed! Mary was nuts about the guy and quite swept away with his charms. She would marry man who would cheat on her all the time, let’s face it: guys want to, they’re going to put it someplace.

    and regardless of how many boyfriends she had on the road, if that’s how she coped with the intense pressures they were under, it’s a lot healthier than the way Florence and Diana dealt with it. Mary loved men and absolutely saw no reason to hide it. She loved to have a good time, and she did.

    and, I agree with spreadinglove in that Mary’s accessibility to the fans served her in great stead over the years, as well as the fans. Everybody won. I understand the point he was trying to make and it worked for Ross. Mary made deep, lasting,loving relationships with some fans that lasted her lifetime. This was beneficial to the group and Berry should not have tried to make mary into something she wasn’t.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Three Hail Marys added to your prayers tonight young man.
    hahaha and while i'm down on my knees tithing... lol

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