Cindy on Motown 40

[marybrewster]

I think one of the best Motown "documentaries" was Motown 40, especially seeing Diana, Mary, and Cindy's participation. How amazing would THAT have been if they reunited, if only to talk about the DRATS.

One thing that always baffled me was Cindy's comment [[and I'm paraphrasing) that when she joined the group, she didn't know "which girl she was replacing"

Is Cindy telling a tale? Certainly she had to have known she was replacing Flo; it's been said that Mary herself taught Cindy the choreography for the group. Maybe it was the initial interaction about bringing her in as a substitute that she wasn't aware it was Flo? It just seems a bit odd that even in the talks, it wouldn't have been mentioned.

[RanRan79]

I would assume that her comment probably applies to when they first asked her. Mary says that the search for a replacement took place in early 1967 at which point it was decided to reach out to Cindy. I imagine that when Motown reached out, the only information they would have been okay revealing would have been that a replacement was needed, keeping the rest of the story under wraps until very necessary. I'm guessing that Cindy probably found out which girl it was when she was called in for the Hollywood Bowl.

[Ollie9]

I wonder if she ever thought of the possibility she might be replacing Diana as lead singer?.

[Spreadinglove21]

Or maybe she thought she would replace Diana, who would go solo, with Flo taking over as lead singer?

[Ollie9]

Or maybe she thought she was replacing Flo with Mary taking over as lead singer. She might have been anxious at the thought of having to sing background with Diana.

[jim aka jtigre99]

It was a baffling statement. Certainly, Cindy had to have an idea that she wasn't replacing Mary since she was working with her to learn the songs and routines. I mean, would you think you would join a company [[at that time) who would have someone teach their own replacement [[which is the norm for most jobs now)? She had to reason it was Flo, as there had to be rumors since Flo missed shows and was replaced once onstage. Cindy couldn't have been that much in the dark. She certainly had to have some reasoning faculties regarding what was going on before the day she actually replaced Flo.

[RanRan79]

I'm sure Cindy didn't know who it was until she got the call for the Hollywood Bowl. Why would Motown put themselves in that kind of PR position to reveal that there were problems in the group before it was necessary? Tell Cindy it's Florence, Cindy tells Patti, Patti tells Dionne, Dionne tells Cissy, Cissy tells Aretha, Aretha tells New Bethel, Mother Winslow at New Bethel tells her grandson who works for the Detroit Free Press and now it's in the press.

Gordy was smart enough to recognize that the Flo situation might not get better and thus a replacement for Florence might become necessary. He never wanted to have to do it. Shaking up the Supremes was never something Gordy and Co looked forward to doing. For whatever reason Cindy was chosen, I believe, as a contingency plan. And sometime after that, Flo gave Gordy reason to fire her. At that point Cindy is told she is replacing Florence permanently and joins the group in time for the Hollywood Bowl. Except Cindy is still under contract somewhere else. While the deets are being worked out to release her, Flo is back.

Isn't there even an account published of Cindy waiting at Gordy's house while the infamous meeting is taking place? Perhaps it is then that she is officially informed which girl she is replacing. So Cindy's recollection may very well be exactly what she said it was.

[bradsupremes]

I'm sure Cindy didn't know who it was until she got the call for the Hollywood Bowl. Why would Motown put themselves in that kind of PR position to reveal that there were problems in the group before it was necessary? Tell Cindy it's Florence, Cindy tells Patti, Patti tells Dionne, Dionne tells Cissy, Cissy tells Aretha, Aretha tells New Bethel, Mother Winslow at New Bethel tells her grandson who works for the Detroit Free Press and now it's in the press.

Gordy was smart enough to recognize that the Flo situation might not get better and thus a replacement for Florence might become necessary. He never wanted to have to do it. Shaking up the Supremes was never something Gordy and Co looked forward to doing. For whatever reason Cindy was chosen, I believe, as a contingency plan. And sometime after that, Flo gave Gordy reason to fire her. At that point Cindy is told she is replacing Florence permanently and joins the group in time for the Hollywood Bowl. Except Cindy is still under contract somewhere else. While the deets are being worked out to release her, Flo is back.

Isn't there even an account published of Cindy waiting at Gordy's house while the infamous meeting is taking place? Perhaps it is then that she is officially informed which girl she is replacing. So Cindy's recollection may very well be exactly what she said it was.

That first part gave me a good laugh!

The timeline of what was going on in April 1967 has one I haven’t been able to figure out especially considering when the meeting at Gordy’s house occurred.

April 7-15 - Twin Coaches in Pennsylvania

April 16 - The girls add vocals to “We Couldn’t Get Along Without You.”

Around this time they film a campaign for the United Way in Detroit and then embark on a tour of colleges.

April 21-22 - Shows in Tennessee.

April 23 - Florence is sent home and Diana and Mary go onstage as a duo in New Orleans at Loyola University.

April 26 - Diana is adding leads to Disney tracks, likely in Los Angeles. During this time Diana and Mary sans Flo are recording radio promos for KHJ’s concert on the 29th.

April 29 - Hollywood Bowl show with Cindy

It’s possible the meeting at Gordy’s house occurred around this time as they don’t have dates.

May 7 - Florence is back for the Ed Sullivan Show. Considering they need a few days of rehearsals she would have needed to be back a few days earlier.

May 9 - Back in Detroit, Diana, Mary and Marlene record “Reflections.” Florence misses this session.

May 11 - They open at the Copa and Cindy is present as Florence would recall to Peter Benjamin. After the Copa, a series of engagements and concerts across the Midwest before heading up the Shoreham, Coconut Grove and then the Flamingo take place in a row for which Florence is present for all.

[Ollie9]

The fact Cindy was sitting in the audience for weeks studying the groups act makes me think she must have had some kind of inkling. Perhaps she felt a little guilty about the situation as she must have known Florence.

[floyjoy678]

The fact Cindy was sitting in the audience for weeks studying the groups act makes me think she must have had some kind of inkling. Perhaps she felt a little guilty about the situation as she must have known Florence.

That just reminded me of an interview where Cindy said she was the closest with Florence out of the Supremes.

[reese]

Isn't there even an account published of Cindy waiting at Gordy's house while the infamous meeting is taking place? Perhaps it is then that she is officially informed which girl she is replacing. So Cindy's recollection may very well be exactly what she said it was.

In J. Randy's last book on Diana, Diana is quoted as saying that when they first started talking to Cindy, they brought her to Detroit "not to talk about being in the group. Just to talk. She didn't know what she was coming for. Then we finally told her that the reason was that we might need a stand-in for Florence. It was with that in mind that she was brought in, to kind of help us out until we got straight."

When Cindy got the whole story, she said she wasn't sure she wanted to do it. Later, she auditioned for Berry, Diana, and Mary singing YOU KEEP ME HANGIN' ON. According to the book's timeline, this happened right before the April 1967 meeting at Gordy Manor with Berry, Diana, Mary, Flo, and Flo's mother.

[1382hitsville]

I have to assume everyone involved was in the knowing that Cindy was replacing Flo.

Motown had a very good PR machine and those times where different. Those where the times where you could keep stories out of the press. Nobody had a smartphone, there was no internet. I remember reading in one of the liner notes the hobbies where described, this subject is brought up in another thread. Diana liked scuba diving....The PR machine created characters where everyone could relate to, just like in the 90's with the Spice Girls.

I don't know if NDA's where around that time [[Non Disclosure Agreements), but business wise it would make very much sense to let everyone sign one of those.

And the possibly many fabricated stories, got legs, got bigger when time passed and our memories can play tricks on us.

Motown had a very good PR team, the press was in their pocket, if they didn't play along or where too critical, no more interviews, no pictures etc.

As a side note, in the book "Detroit 67, The Year That Changed Soul", by Stuart Cossgrove has a special chapter about the meeting at Berrys mansion.

My conclusion from that is that Berry handled the situation not like a proper manager, Mary was silent and Diana was led by Berry and did everything he wanted because that was also in her best interest.

And as I wrote in the "reunion thread", if there was a chance of some sort of independent mediation, councelling and mental support for those young girls, history might have been different.

[floyjoy678]

I was always surprised they were able to get Florence back after the meeting at Berry's house. I always wonder what would have happened if she said no. Would Marlene Barrow have been with them at the Copa?

I've heard the tour in April being referred to as "the tour from hell" lol. I believe it was Shelley Berger who said it.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I was always surprised they were able to get Florence back after the meeting at Berry's house. I always wonder what would have happened if she said no. Would Marlene Barrow have been with them at the Copa?

I've heard the tour in April being referred to as "the tour from hell" lol. I believe it was Shelley Berger who said it.

I remember reading that Florence was told she was back on a "trial basis" and considering what had went down, would have infuriated any human being. It had to be mentally exhausting to be put in that place and Florence, naturally like most human beings, lashed out while being treated that way. If Cindy couldn't be released just yet and Florence didn't agree to come back than logically it seemed that Marlene, who had subbed before, would be a logical temporary choice.

[sup_fan]

it wasn't mary that reached out to Cindy but a motown exec. I'm assuming Cindy's comment is also just her way of saying that she was not actively involved in the dismissal of flo. an exec reached out to Cindy in NJ and probably said something like "hey we'd like to fly you out to detroit to talk about the potential of you joining the supremes" Even if Cindy asked "who am i replacing?" the exec could have been elusive and said "well we're looking at some options with the group..." he wouldn't have had to specifically say Flo

as someone stated above, cindy could have thought Diana was preparing for a solo and the new lineup might be MFC. or maybe a 4th member. or maybe flo was leaving. or mary was leaving.

once she got to detroit, then they would have explained the situation. when she learned it was flo, she's stated that she had some hesitations. that she wasn't sure she wanted to get involved. but i'm guessing that the opportunity it presented was too good of a deal

[sup_fan]

That first part gave me a good laugh!

The timeline of what was going on in April 1967 has one I haven’t been able to figure out especially considering when the meeting at Gordy’s house occurred.

April 7-15 - Twin Coaches in Pennsylvania

April 16 - The girls add vocals to “We Couldn’t Get Along Without You.”

Around this time they film a campaign for the United Way in Detroit and then embark on a tour of colleges.

April 21-22 - Shows in Tennessee.

April 23 - Florence is sent home and Diana and Mary go onstage as a duo in New Orleans at Loyola University.

April 26 - Diana is adding leads to Disney tracks, likely in Los Angeles. During this time Diana and Mary sans Flo are recording radio promos for KHJ’s concert on the 29th.

April 29 - Hollywood Bowl show with Cindy

It’s possible the meeting at Gordy’s house occurred around this time as they don’t have dates.

May 7 - Florence is back for the Ed Sullivan Show. Considering they need a few days of rehearsals she would have needed to be back a few days earlier.

May 9 - Back in Detroit, Diana, Mary and Marlene record “Reflections.” Florence misses this session.

May 11 - They open at the Copa and Cindy is present as Florence would recall to Peter Benjamin. After the Copa, a series of engagements and concerts across the Midwest before heading up the Shoreham, Coconut Grove and then the Flamingo take place in a row for which Florence is present for all.

when looking at the timeline, it's surprising how quickly things developed. from the 4/23 date in NOLA where D and M had to do the duet act to the 4/29 date at Hollywood Bowl.

also it's interesting that flo didn't do reflections on 5/9 but then did record Going All The Way on 6/12. i wonder if she was informed of the Reflections session and she skipped it or what.

[RanRan79]

I was always surprised they were able to get Florence back after the meeting at Berry's house. I always wonder what would have happened if she said no. Would Marlene Barrow have been with them at the Copa?

I've heard the tour in April being referred to as "the tour from hell" lol. I believe it was Shelley Berger who said it.

Had Flo said no, yeah, it would've probably been Marlene until Cindy was free.

To me the bigger question has always been what if Flo had come back and somehow found some way to function within the group with her issues? Functional alcoholics are real, as are people with mental issues who push through every day. Of course the obvious is that Flo would just have remained a Supreme. If the boat didn't have to be rocked, why rock it? But with Cindy unable to return to her old group, and Motown spent money getting her out of her contract, what then? My guess is that Cindy might have been kept on as a permanent understudy in the event one is needed. Or maybe she ends up taking Betty's place in the Vandellas. Taking the Supreme gig at that point really did leave Cindy in a vulnerable position. It was a gamble.

[sup_fan]

i've always thought that the post-April performances by Flo were simply because Cindy couldn't get out of her contract and the group had dates to fulfill. i don't know that it was really a probationary period for Flo. i'm pretty sure she was done, at least in Gordy's eyes.

[Ollie9]

i've always thought that the post-April performances by Flo were simply because Cindy couldn't get out of her contract and the group had dates to fulfill. i don't know that it was really a probationary period for Flo. i'm pretty sure she was done, at least in Gordy's eyes.

That’s what i alway’s thought, but in the Peter Benjaminson book Flo mentions she didn’t know whether she was in or out of the group.

[RanRan79]

i've always thought that the post-April performances by Flo were simply because Cindy couldn't get out of her contract and the group had dates to fulfill. i don't know that it was really a probationary period for Flo. i'm pretty sure she was done, at least in Gordy's eyes.

Flo was fired in April. I think Gordy had every intention of that being that...until he found out Cindy wasn't free and clear. Asking Flo back became necessary. Remember, neither Diana nor Mary wanted Florence gone until they felt it had to be done. And even then, if they could have found a way to keep her, they would have. I think Gordy was the same way, contrary to popular belief. His personal feelings for Florence aside, he recognized her popularity within the group and he understood that shaking up the Supremes was a gamble that could cost him. He was already planning on shaking the group up with the name change, which was a gamble with the public. For Flo's exit to coincide with that could have been disastrous, so if she comes back and everything is good, alls well that ends well. If Gordy could have gotten around not replacing Florence, he would have. Cindy's contract issue gave him a chance. Florence didn't seize the opportunity.

Now, I do think there's a possibility that the initial firing was to give Flo a chance to see that Gordy and co wasn't playing with her, that if she didn't get it together, she could find herself out, for real. Cindy was still the contingency plan, with Gordy probably having an inkling that Flo would self destruct sooner rather than later. The time in between gave Gordy a chance to have Cindy learn the routine by watching, so if it became necessary- or when it became necessary- Cindy could jump right in without missing a beat.

[RanRan79]

Someone [[not sure who and I'm too lazy to look) mentioned Cindy not knowing if she was replacing Diana. That makes me think of what might the Supremes have been like if Diana had said let Flo stay, Diana would go solo instead, and Cindy joined Flo and Mary. Interesting grouping. I'm guessing Flo and Mary would probably split the leads. Would Cindy and Flo's voices work together when Mary was singing lead? I wonder how present the Andantes would be. Just me thinking "out loud".

[Ollie9]

Flo was fired in April. I think Gordy had every intention of that being that...until he found out Cindy wasn't free and clear. Asking Flo back became necessary. Remember, neither Diana nor Mary wanted Florence gone until they felt it had to be done. And even then, if they could have found a way to keep her, they would have. I think Gordy was the same way, contrary to popular belief. His personal feelings for Florence aside, he recognized her popularity within the group and he understood that shaking up the Supremes was a gamble that could cost him. He was already planning on shaking the group up with the name change, which was a gamble with the public. For Flo's exit to coincide with that could have been disastrous, so if she comes back and everything is good, alls well that ends well. If Gordy could have gotten around not replacing Florence, he would have. Cindy's contract issue gave him a chance. Florence didn't seize the opportunity.

Now, I do think there's a possibility that the initial firing was to give Flo a chance to see that Gordy and co wasn't playing with her, that if she didn't get it together, she could find herself out, for real. Cindy was still the contingency plan, with Gordy probably having an inkling that Flo would self destruct sooner rather than later. The time in between gave Gordy a chance to have Cindy learn the routine by watching, so if it became necessary- or when it became necessary- Cindy could jump right in without missing a beat.

I think once Cindy was given the all clear the writing was on the wall. Even if Flo had decided to commit to the group by getting her act together, to much bad blood had already passed between her and BG to carry on as if nothing had happened.
He must have realised how a still fragile Flo would react upon discovering Cindy’s labelled, identical stage costume hanging in the dressing room. Flo unfortunately dived headfirst into the trap.
She had served her purpose in helping them out of a rut and was now dispensable. Her reaction was the excuse he needed to get rid of her.

[RanRan79]

I think once Cindy was given the all clear the writing was on the wall. Even if Flo had decided to commit to the group by getting her act together, to much bad blood had already passed between her and BG to carry on as if nothing had happened.
He must have realised how a still fragile Flo would react upon discovering Cindy’s labelled, identical stage costume hanging in the dressing room. Flo unfortunately dived headfirst into the trap.
She had served her purpose in helping them out of a rut and was now dispensable. Her reaction was the excuse he needed to get rid of her.

That's just the thing, he needed an excuse. With the kind of money riding on the Supremes, Berry could definitely get over his issues with Florence if she had come back and played her position. Again, nobody, not even Gordy, wanted Flo gone if it wasn't necessary. There seemed to be two straws that broke the camel's back. Flo being too drunk to go on stage, forcing Diana and Mary to go on as a duo at the last minute. That put the Supremes in a position they hadn't been in before and it could have been disastrous. The girls could have bombed, being forced to do a three woman show with only two. [[It reminds me of a Golden Girls episode where Dorothy, Rose and Blanche have a dance routine to do for an event and Dorothy hurts her foot. Rose and Blanche rehearse the act as if Dorothy is there and there's this awkward Dorothy solo that they have to wait through and pretend she's doing it. Lol) Gordy had had enough, and understandably so. The other straw was Flo actually going on stage drunk, and supposedly she looked and sounded unprofessional in front of a live audience? That was the final nail.

Gordy never fired Florence because of his issues with her, or she would have been out the first time she cussed his ass out. Lol She wasn't even fired whenever she went against his wishes. Both times came after Flo put the group's live performance in jeopardy. Had the Supremes suddenly got a reputation for being a mess on stage, their live schedule would have dried up and so would all of that good money. Gordy wasn't having that. If that infamous night at the Flamingo never happened, Flo might have remained in the group had she decided to go with the flow.

But Gordy really was savvy enough to understand Florence. He knew she would screw up eventually. I don't believe for one moment that he thought Cindy wouldn't be necessary. And he was right.

[Ollie9]

That's just the thing, he needed an excuse. With the kind of money riding on the Supremes, Berry could definitely get over his issues with Florence if she had come back and played her position. Again, nobody, not even Gordy, wanted Flo gone if it wasn't necessary. There seemed to be two straws that broke the camel's back. Flo being too drunk to go on stage, forcing Diana and Mary to go on as a duo at the last minute. That put the Supremes in a position they hadn't been in before and it could have been disastrous. The girls could have bombed, being forced to do a three woman show with only two. [[It reminds me of a Golden Girls episode where Dorothy, Rose and Blanche have a dance routine to do for an event and Dorothy hurts her foot. Rose and Blanche rehearse the act as if Dorothy is there and there's this awkward Dorothy solo that they have to wait through and pretend she's doing it. Lol) Gordy had had enough, and understandably so. The other straw was Flo actually going on stage drunk, and supposedly she looked and sounded unprofessional in front of a live audience? That was the final nail.

Gordy never fired Florence because of his issues with her, or she would have been out the first time she cussed his ass out. Lol She wasn't even fired whenever she went against his wishes. Both times came after Flo put the group's live performance in jeopardy. Had the Supremes suddenly got a reputation for being a mess on stage, their live schedule would have dried up and so would all of that good money. Gordy wasn't having that. If that infamous night at the Flamingo never happened, Flo might have remained in the group had she decided to go with the flow.

But Gordy really was savvy enough to understand Florence. He knew she would screw up eventually. I don't believe for one moment that he thought Cindy wouldn't be necessary. And he was right.

Has it ever actually been confirmed that Flo was back on a trial basis as opposed to filling in until Cindy became contractually free?.
I don’t agree about Gordy not wanting Flo out unless forced to. Flo herself had said that BG often told her she could leave anytime she wanted. Diana most certainly wanted rid, with a reluctant Mary having to agree it might be for the best.

[marybrewster]

Can you imagine being fired from the group that you helped create, way before Gordy was even in the picture? I suppose it happens in everyday life; a person builds up a company, becomes CEO, then is ousted by its Board of Directors or investors. That must have been a pill to swallow.

The Supremes, from the beginning, were something special with Flo.

It just goes to show that once those contracts were signed, they signed everything away. I'll bet you these days a group has a rider about replacing members. And if they don't, they should.

[sup_fan]

i think the concept of the Supremes being "Flo's group" is a real stretch. and to really compare the 1958/59 group to the 1967 group is frankly apples and oranges

the group did start out with Flo. my understanding is the Primes were in place with Milton Jenkins and Flo was hanging around, doing some female solo singing with them. Milton thought a sister group would make for a nice package to get onto sock hops and little performances. Flo recruited Mary, Paul recruited Diana and wasn't Betty dating one of the guys or something? So it's not like Flo held auditions for "her" group or set up a folding table to accept applications to "her" group. the group was formed by the entire group involved. Flo sang leads but wasn't the sole lead singer, even from the beginning. the girls swapped leads and most sources site Diana early on singing a lot of the leads. and based on the recordings we have from the early Motown years, Diana was handling 70% or more of the recordings.

once the group became "THE SUPREMES" i wonder what Flo's honest thoughts were about remaining a member. various books site how much she missed her family while traveling, how she had major fears of flying. some have said she was growing disinterested in the high-gloss toney image of the group. Was this something she really dearly and truly loved? would she have been happier maybe in a lower profile group like the Velvelettes or the something? maybe she and Cindy could have literally swapped roles. would a more r&b experience like the Bluebelles have suited her better?

this isn't to say that the breakup of a fun and exciting childhood dream isn't sad or upsetting. but we've all know that people's goals and desires change with time and age. what was important to you at age 18 may or may not carry the same importance at 28 or 38.

[marybrewster]

i think the concept of the Supremes being "Flo's group" is a real stretch. and to really compare the 1958/59 group to the 1967 group is frankly apples and oranges

the group did start out with Flo. my understanding is the Primes were in place with Milton Jenkins and Flo was hanging around, doing some female solo singing with them. Milton thought a sister group would make for a nice package to get onto sock hops and little performances. Flo recruited Mary, Paul recruited Diana and wasn't Betty dating one of the guys or something? So it's not like Flo held auditions for "her" group or set up a folding table to accept applications to "her" group. the group was formed by the entire group involved. Flo sang leads but wasn't the sole lead singer, even from the beginning. the girls swapped leads and most sources site Diana early on singing a lot of the leads. and based on the recordings we have from the early Motown years, Diana was handling 70% or more of the recordings.

once the group became "THE SUPREMES" i wonder what Flo's honest thoughts were about remaining a member. various books site how much she missed her family while traveling, how she had major fears of flying. some have said she was growing disinterested in the high-gloss toney image of the group. Was this something she really dearly and truly loved? would she have been happier maybe in a lower profile group like the Velvelettes or the something? maybe she and Cindy could have literally swapped roles. would a more r&b experience like the Bluebelles have suited her better?

this isn't to say that the breakup of a fun and exciting childhood dream isn't sad or upsetting. but we've all know that people's goals and desires change with time and age. what was important to you at age 18 may or may not carry the same importance at 28 or 38.

I didn't mean that Flo alone created the Supremes; more that Diana, Mary, Flo [[and Barbara) created the Supremes. This was her hand in it and her dream, not Berry's. Once it became his, then Flo was out.

[marybrewster]

Think of it as three girlfriends buy and share a house. One of the girls moves her boyfriend in, and they together kick out one of the other girls. Boyfriend now gets all of the sweat equity the original roommates put in.

I didn't think Flo alone started the Primettes/Supremes, lol.

[Ollie9]

It’s an interesting concept having Flo replace Cindy in the Bluebelles. I guess it would have all depended on how desperately Flo wanted a solo career, or indeed if the Blues would have wanted her. I’m sure she would have feared another BG/Diana situation arising.
I think it would have been brilliant for both her and the group..

[sup_fan]

I didn't mean that Flo alone created the Supremes; more that Diana, Mary, Flo [[and Barbara) created the Supremes. This was her hand in it and her dream, not Berry's. Once it became his, then Flo was out.

oh i know. i wasn't intending my reply as a reply directly to your comment. but more so the general view of the origination of the group and flo's role

[sup_fan]

It’s an interesting concept having Flo replace Cindy in the Bluebelles. I guess it would have all depended on how desperately Flo wanted a solo career, or indeed if the Blues would have wanted her. I’m sure she would have feared another BG/Diana situation arising.
I think it would have been brilliant for both her and the group..

obviously it never would have happened. wasn't really suggesting it as a viable outcome to the events but just a thought

Gladys Horton talked about how the Sups were a supper club act with polished vocals and a more sophisticated style. whereas the M's were more r&b and geared toward the concert halls that catered to a more black audience. I also wonder if that style of music would have been more to flo's liking and all.

here's a real radical idea!! what if Flo left the Sups and joined the M's, replacing Gladys. so then you'd have Flo as a partial lead of the M's doing the faster paced numbers and Wanda doing the slinky sexy ones. meanwhile Cindy joins the Sups and they become the DRATS just as in real life

[Ollie9]

here's a real radical idea!! what if Flo left the Sups and joined the M's, replacing Gladys. so then you'd have Flo as a partial lead of the M's doing the faster paced numbers and Wanda doing the slinky sexy ones. meanwhile Cindy joins the Sups and they become the DRATS just as in real life

It’s a lovely idea that might that might well have been her saviour. It’s hard to imagine the original Supremes without Flo, but the groups phenomenal success did seem to eventually overwhelm her. For all her fire and bluster, at heart i think her an extremely sensitive soul.

[sup_fan]

there have been varying accounts on Flo's POV with the direction of the group [[outside of the whole Diana Ross top billing issue). some sources have stated that she was not comfortable with the high-gloss show biz aspect. the hats and canes, the corny jokes, the MOR content, etc. Was it that she really didn't like this material? was it that the material was fine but the fact it was so laser-focused on building up diana? my guess it's more of the later than the former. but again, some authors state that flo was growing disillusioned with the concept of the group. Flo herself picked People and I Am Woman for the act back in 64. so that tells me she enjoyed show tunes and this other material. material that wasn't traditionally viewed as R&B and they definitely didn't reinterpret or approach it in an overly R&B fashion either.

i do think the much reduced pressure of a group like the Marvelettes would have suited Flo. i've not gone through the effort to make an excel speadsheet of their itinerary lol like i have with the sups. but clearly the volume of performances and tours was much lower for the M's. as would the recording schedule. this would have allowed considerably more time at home with family and maybe that would have given Flo the support she needed to deal with some of her demons.

[Spreadinglove21]

Given what was going on with Wanda around the time of Gladys leaving the group, and given Flo's problems, The Marvelettes with Wanda and Flo would have been a complete trainwreck.

[RanRan79]

Has it ever actually been confirmed that Flo was back on a trial basis as opposed to filling in until Cindy became contractually free?.
I don’t agree about Gordy not wanting Flo out unless forced to. Flo herself had said that BG often told her she could leave anytime she wanted. Diana most certainly wanted rid, with a reluctant Mary having to agree it might be for the best.

At what point do you think Gordy, Diana and Mary wanted Flo gone? There's no denying that they wanted her out. Gordy included both Diana and Mary in the decision, and they willingly discussed replacing Florence. And of course eventually we know Gordy kicked her out for good and neither Diana nor Mary pitched a fit about it. But do you really think that this is the turnout they wanted? I don't believe for a moment that Diana and Mary wanted to sing with anyone other than Florence unless they felt they had to. Whatever Gordy's feelings were about Flo personally, he was a good businessman. Why fire Flo if she didn't have to go? She was a popular member of the group. She proved herself a crowd pleaser with "People", which is why it was in the act so long, even after the group started to struggle inward. She was a valuable member to their sound. No good businessman would want to shake up a good thing if he doesn't have to.

Gordy fired Flo when he felt there was no other choice. Diana and Mary agreed with the decision when they felt there was no other choice. If it had been a "whatever" decision, Flo would have been fired in 1966 when she threw a drink in Gordy's face, or when she failed to disguise her disgust with Diana at that department store autograph signing in front of witnesses. I don't think it was a coincidence that the night Flo was fired for good that Cindy's contract situation suddenly was worked out. It had been worked out. It was a matter of Flo holding her own fate in her hands: either stay on the straight and narrow and not give Gordy a reason to kick her out, or do what she eventually did and give him the reason. I think at that point he was good either way. Flo stays, the group is still intact, no new member for the public to get used to, no new voice for the girls to feel their way around, no PR nightmare with Flo's exit coinciding with the name change. If Flo goes, Cindy is willing and waiting, and more importantly, free from her other contractual agreements to step in at a moment's notice.

Flo came back the second time and recorded music with the group. I don't think Gordy would have let her back in the studio if he didn't consider her return a possible permanent position. Would have been just as easy to call in the Andantes, or even bring in Cindy to sing with Mary. To me, that's telling.

[RanRan79]

Can you imagine being fired from the group that you helped create, way before Gordy was even in the picture? I suppose it happens in everyday life; a person builds up a company, becomes CEO, then is ousted by its Board of Directors or investors. That must have been a pill to swallow.

The Supremes, from the beginning, were something special with Flo.

It just goes to show that once those contracts were signed, they signed everything away. I'll bet you these days a group has a rider about replacing members. And if they don't, they should.

Totally agree and it never should have happened.

In a perfect world, Gordy would have gone to Florence and sat her down, offering her a temporary vacation from the group, giving her time to either get herself together or figure out whether being a Supreme was still what she wanted to do. Maybe with an amicable split, Flo signing on at Motown as a solo might not have been the bad move we all know it would have been had Florence taken Motown up on their offer when they offered her a solo deal in real life.

Of course in a perfect world, Florence wouldn't have been antagonized by her boss and had her dream shifted for the benefit of someone else.

[Ollie9]

At what point do you think Gordy, Diana and Mary wanted Flo gone? There's no denying that they wanted her out. Gordy included both Diana and Mary in the decision, and they willingly discussed replacing Florence. And of course eventually we know Gordy kicked her out for good and neither Diana nor Mary pitched a fit about it. But do you really think that this is the turnout they wanted? I don't believe for a moment that Diana and Mary wanted to sing with anyone other than Florence unless they felt they had to. Whatever Gordy's feelings were about Flo personally, he was a good businessman. Why fire Flo if she didn't have to go? She was a popular member of the group. She proved herself a crowd pleaser with "People", which is why it was in the act so long, even after the group started to struggle inward. She was a valuable member to their sound. No good businessman would want to shake up a good thing if he doesn't have to.

Gordy fired Flo when he felt there was no other choice. Diana and Mary agreed with the decision when they felt there was no other choice. If it had been a "whatever" decision, Flo would have been fired in 1966 when she threw a drink in Gordy's face, or when she failed to disguise her disgust with Diana at that department store autograph signing in front of witnesses. I don't think it was a coincidence that the night Flo was fired for good that Cindy's contract situation suddenly was worked out. It had been worked out. It was a matter of Flo holding her own fate in her hands: either stay on the straight and narrow and not give Gordy a reason to kick her out, or do what she eventually did and give him the reason. I think at that point he was good either way. Flo stays, the group is still intact, no new member for the public to get used to, no new voice for the girls to feel their way around, no PR nightmare with Flo's exit coinciding with the name change. If Flo goes, Cindy is willing and waiting, and more importantly, free from her other contractual agreements to step in at a moment's notice.

Flo came back the second time and recorded music with the group. I don't think Gordy would have let her back in the studio if he didn't consider her return a possible permanent position. Would have been just as easy to call in the Andantes, or even bring in Cindy to sing with Mary. To me, that's telling.

I’m going by Flo’s account in the Peter Benjaminson book where she states that Gordy repeatedly told her “your a rich woman, you could leave anytime you wanted”. I doubt had she replied “alright then” he would have said “no no Flo, i was only joking” She also mentions that he said to her “if I can’t control you I don’t want you around”. I’m guessing this is around 66/7.
I think he was intent on being rid of a Flo regardless of whether or not she had gotten her act together. Once Cindy became available, that was it.
His contempt for her is evident when he had a heavily pregnant Flo thrown out of his house less then a year later.
Her dismissal stood as a warning to other acts that if you disrespect the boss don’t expect to be around for to long.

[sup_fan]

At what point do you think Gordy, Diana and Mary wanted Flo gone? There's no denying that they wanted her out. Gordy included both Diana and Mary in the decision, and they willingly discussed replacing Florence. And of course eventually we know Gordy kicked her out for good and neither Diana nor Mary pitched a fit about it. But do you really think that this is the turnout they wanted? I don't believe for a moment that Diana and Mary wanted to sing with anyone other than Florence unless they felt they had to. Whatever Gordy's feelings were about Flo personally, he was a good businessman. Why fire Flo if she didn't have to go? She was a popular member of the group. She proved herself a crowd pleaser with "People", which is why it was in the act so long, even after the group started to struggle inward. She was a valuable member to their sound. No good businessman would want to shake up a good thing if he doesn't have to.

Gordy fired Flo when he felt there was no other choice. Diana and Mary agreed with the decision when they felt there was no other choice. If it had been a "whatever" decision, Flo would have been fired in 1966 when she threw a drink in Gordy's face, or when she failed to disguise her disgust with Diana at that department store autograph signing in front of witnesses. I don't think it was a coincidence that the night Flo was fired for good that Cindy's contract situation suddenly was worked out. It had been worked out. It was a matter of Flo holding her own fate in her hands: either stay on the straight and narrow and not give Gordy a reason to kick her out, or do what she eventually did and give him the reason. I think at that point he was good either way. Flo stays, the group is still intact, no new member for the public to get used to, no new voice for the girls to feel their way around, no PR nightmare with Flo's exit coinciding with the name change. If Flo goes, Cindy is willing and waiting, and more importantly, free from her other contractual agreements to step in at a moment's notice.

Flo came back the second time and recorded music with the group. I don't think Gordy would have let her back in the studio if he didn't consider her return a possible permanent position. Would have been just as easy to call in the Andantes, or even bring in Cindy to sing with Mary. To me, that's telling.

that's a hard one to pin point. easier would be to identify the order in which the 3 decided she had to go. Berry first, then Diana would have agreed and finally Mary.

the first dates we sort of have for Flo having issues are the debutant party in Grosse Point MI. where Marlene subbed for her. this was just prior to the Copa debut. this period of time was probably one of the most stressful for everyone involved because so much was riding on this. Berry was gambling that the idea of the Sups breaking big at the Copa would be the entre to huge successes. but what if the reception was lukewarm or, even worse, poor? Randy mentioned that several motown acts didn't do so well at the Copa - i heard Smokey and the Miracles were coolly received, what about stevie and marvin?

anyway there was so much at stake with the Copa training and show and during this time you have the Artist Dev team saying M and F weren't pushing themselves like Diana was. then you have Flo not able to make performances [[why i don't know). I've heard that Berry was pretty much an all or nothin type of guy. either you were with him 100% and he was committed to you or you weren't and he was pretty much done with you. I wonder if this was the laying of the groundwork for why there was this curious lack of interest in doing anything with MW? maybe the staff and Berry just felt she wasn't as hard a worker or as dedicated.

but i would guess Berry was extremely nervous that if Flo was slacking off and skipping/missing things, would that hurt the reputation and profit of the group

as for Diana, i'd guess it was the later half of 66. after she had collapsed onstage and after the Orient trip - mary sort of says the orient trip was where some of the real issues began. Fans have said that Gil, Cholly and others have shared how D was still very supportive of flo - that D really wanted Manhattan on the R&H set. Randy says that in the Flamingo debut in 66, Berry separated the girls dressing rooms. that to me says that was Diana's breaking point. at that point, the stress and strain of the relationship seems to be strong enough that she needed to simply separate herself in order to maintain her ability to perform and, guessing, her sanity. even if that date isn't exactly right, that would be my guess

[RanRan79]

I’m going by Flo’s account in the Peter Benjaminson book where she states that Gordy repeatedly told her “your a rich woman, you could leave anytime you wanted”. I doubt had she replied “alright then” he would have said “no no Flo, i was only joking” She also mentions that he said to her “if I can’t control you I don’t want you around”. I’m guessing this is around 66/7.
I think he was intent on being rid of a Flo regardless of whether or not she had gotten her act together. Once Cindy became available, that was it.
His contempt for her is evident when he had a heavily pregnant Flo thrown out of his house less then a year later.
Her dismissal stood as a warning to other acts that if you disrespect the boss don’t expect to be around for to long.

But did he really say that? And if so, what was his point? Because surely he wouldn't have given her that option thinking she was really going to say "okay, I've had enough" and let her walk. Who was taking her place? And again, he was the boss. If he really wanted her gone when he supposedly made those comments, why wouldn't he instead just say "Yo Flo, you're out"? Remember, Gordy had an antagonistic relationship with Florence. He poked, she bit, rinse and repeat. It was a game with him. He played similar mental games with Diana and Mary, he just came at them in different ways, and of course he didn't want Diana or Mary out of the group either. [[And by Diana out of the group, I mean straight up fired, not the plans for the solo career.)

I am not at all disputing that Gordy had contempt for Florence. I just don't believe he was jumping at the chance to rock the boat in order to get some satisfaction in firing Florence. Why bring her back the first time? Why not just bring in Marlene until Cindy could become permanent? And again, why let Flo record with the Supremes if she was merely a stand-in for Cindy? Both Flo and Mary had been replaced by the Andantes on occasion, and no one would ever have to know that Cindy started recording with Mary before her contract situation was taken care of.

To me all the evidence points to Flo's trial period, being just that, a trial period. If it worked, great, if it didn't, heeeeerrrrrreeeeesssss Cindy!

[marybrewster]

A good assessment on the dressing room situation. While some believe this was set up to separate Diana from "the girls", I believe that this was created solely to give Diana space from the "chaos" of Flo. Diana needed to be "on" every night, every performance, and while the Supremes were definitely a trio, as proven, the show could go on with Diana and Mary, but not with Mary and Flo.

[sup_fan]

But did he really say that? And if so, what was his point? Because surely he wouldn't have given her that option thinking she was really going to say "okay, I've had enough" and let her walk. Who was taking her place? And again, he was the boss. If he really wanted her gone when he supposedly made those comments, why wouldn't he instead just say "Yo Flo, you're out"? Remember, Gordy had an antagonistic relationship with Florence. He poked, she bit, rinse and repeat. It was a game with him. He played similar mental games with Diana and Mary, he just came at them in different ways, and of course he didn't want Diana or Mary out of the group either. [[And by Diana out of the group, I mean straight up fired, not the plans for the solo career.)

I am not at all disputing that Gordy had contempt for Florence. I just don't believe he was jumping at the chance to rock the boat in order to get some satisfaction in firing Florence. Why bring her back the first time? Why not just bring in Marlene until Cindy could become permanent? And again, why let Flo record with the Supremes if she was merely a stand-in for Cindy? Both Flo and Mary had been replaced by the Andantes on occasion, and no one would ever have to know that Cindy started recording with Mary before her contract situation was taken care of.

To me all the evidence points to Flo's trial period, being just that, a trial period. If it worked, great, if it didn't, heeeeerrrrrreeeeesssss Cindy!

i'm only going off of the various stories we've all read in these books. it definitely seems as though Berry could be a very curious character. i do think he honestly cared about all 3 girls, especially early on. i think the problems began when the 3 girls' personalities and all came through. M and F were great but maybe they weren't quite a dedicated to stratospheric success as Diana. they were all of 19 years old after all. it's perfectly natural for them to want to have fun, hang out, skip out on rehearsal cuz it's boring etc lol. just like in college - how many of us skipped class to go drink and have fun with friends! lol the fact is diana was NOT normal - she had a drive very unusual for a young adult. and it perfectly aligned with Berry's drive

by all accounts, if Berry felt you were not meeting him at his level, he was mostly done with you. i think that was a huge part of much of the issue with all of the acts. especially the female acts. Berry had already determined that the path to megasucess would come from a female artist or female act because he believed white audiences would find a black women less threatening and less intimidating in concert and on tv and would be willing to relate to them more. so the male artists and acts were already at level 2 for him. of the women then, only Diana had the mega drive to GO GO GO.

[sup_fan]

A good assessment on the dressing room situation. While some believe this was set up to separate Diana from "the girls", I believe that this was created solely to give Diana space from the "chaos" of Flo. Diana needed to be "on" every night, every performance, and while the Supremes were definitely a trio, as proven, the show could go on with Diana and Mary, but not with Mary and Flo.

In one of the books, one of the execs talks about the whole issue of acts being upset they weren't getting the love, attention and money from Berry that the Sups/Diana were. he very specifically states that Diana/Sups were winners - meaning they were the ones generating the appeal with record buyers and audiences. that appeal translates to sales and revenue which pays people's salaries. if a company has 50 products but only 5 sell well and make a profit, should the company invest endless money and resources into the other 45? maybe to a point - let's see if we can improve these products and get them to perform like the 5. but after a while you cut them off. that's a bit cold and calculating to think about when it's applied to artists, but it's the same philosophy

so with the Sups and the dressing rooms, if the tension among the girls is getting so out of hand, what do you do? you can't simply stop touring and recording to allow everyone to simmer down. there isn't time to stop and do a workshop on how to improve things. it's all GO GO GO!!!!! and diana was carrying the bulk of the show and after her breakdown, if something else occurred, you could seriously damage the group's reputation and sales. so you focus on insulating her so that she can still focus on being a success and a star and making the shows great

at the end of the day, people's mortgages and bills depended on the Sups, and more specifically Diana, generating revenue.

[Ollie9]

But did he really say that? And if so, what was his point? Because surely he wouldn't have given her that option thinking she was really going to say "okay, I've had enough" and let her walk. Who was taking her place? And again, he was the boss. If he really wanted her gone when he supposedly made those comments, why wouldn't he instead just say "Yo Flo, you're out"? Remember, Gordy had an antagonistic relationship with Florence. He poked, she bit, rinse and repeat. It was a game with him. He played similar mental games with Diana and Mary, he just came at them in different ways, and of course he didn't want Diana or Mary out of the group either. [[And by Diana out of the group, I mean straight up fired, not the plans for the solo career.)

I am not at all disputing that Gordy had contempt for Florence. I just don't believe he was jumping at the chance to rock the boat in order to get some satisfaction in firing Florence. Why bring her back the first time? Why not just bring in Marlene until Cindy could become permanent? And again, why let Flo record with the Supremes if she was merely a stand-in for Cindy? Both Flo and Mary had been replaced by the Andantes on occasion, and no one would ever have to know that Cindy started recording with Mary before her contract situation was taken care of.

To me all the evidence points to Flo's trial period, being just that, a trial period. If it worked, great, if it didn't, heeeeerrrrrreeeeesssss Cindy!

I do see where your coming from, but am not entirely convinced...as yet lol. Perhaps one fine day all will be revealed. I doubt it, but you can never be entirely sure.