Sweet dream machine

[captainjames]

This may have been answered before but who is the male vocalist on Sweet Dream Machine ?

[sup_fan]

i believe it was Harold Beatty

[sup_fan]

this is a stunning song, a highlight of the album and one of the best album-only tracks the group recorded in 17 years.

scherrie's lead is magical. it's powerful and yet mysterious, perfectly reflecting the music. Mary's lead is wonderful too. the smokiness of her vocals also adding a dimension to her verse and great hearing her in a non-traditional ballad setting. Susaye's is also great with the flirtatious manner and when she sings the word "high" she descends the scale and when she sings "low" she flips the note up - great way to play with the lyric and notes

while LYG is in my opinion the most commercial tune on the album, this is a stunner and could very well have been the follow up, had LYG been a hit. this could have branched the girls off into new directions

[jim aka jtigre99]

I agree that Let Yourself Go was the potential first hit on that album. Sweet Dream Machine would have been an excellent follow up and possibly opened new doors for the group. I know some have said they thought both Don't Wanna Be Tied Down and Come Into My Life also were personal single choices. Motown choosing Driving Wheel was odd, yes it was the fastest song with a driving beat but the lyrics are inane. Driving wheel? We called it a steering wheel where I lived and certainly wasn't something I would think about as a song. It was a mistake like Mary's Red Hot, because the fastest beat isn't necessarily the best single. Although, the musicians did a great job to make it sound like a speeding car, the inept lyrics should have kept it as an album filler. Sweet Dream Machine was really an excellent song with a great sound and vocals.

[kenneth]

It really is a great song and certainly should’ve been one of the follow up singles. I like “Driving Wheel” and certainly it had hit potential, it’s very similar to “He’s My Man” in terms of energy and impact. But I think “Dream Machine” looks forward to a different type of song, more like a slow jam which became popular later with such songs such as Mtume’s “Juicy Fruit.” It’s very sensual and sexy, and I absolutely love that guy‘s voice in the mix!

Personally I also love the song “Come Into my Life” as it reminds me much more of a George Clinton/Parlet type vibe than it does any other Supremes song. But I don’t think it really had hit potential as a single; I think it requires a little more listening to appreciate just how great a song it is, and it’s not really a dance record, so probably wouldn’t have done well on the dance charts at the time.

Clearly this lineup was loaded with talent. As I know I’ve said before, this lineup was my favorite of all the lineups. Aside from the early singles with Diane on lead, which of course I heard when I was young when I wasn’t that much into music yet, I wasn’t really familiar with the later singles. I really was never aware of the personnel changes in the group. By the time I was buying records, even Jean Terrell was no longer with the group.

I think the three albums that came out with Scherrie on lead vocals are the best, most consistent, and most cohesive of all the groups albums. I don’t think their last album holds up quite as well as “High Energy” which is just so beautifully orchestrated, but it’s a great piece nonetheless. When it came out, I thought the group would have lots more albums in their future. I’m still disappointed that this was their last.

[sup_fan]

it would be fascinating to find memos, notes, etc as to the choice of singles. recaps of meetings with the producers and motown.

i think Wheel is a crazy good dance song but it's SOOOOOO jam packed and heavy. they are literally using just about every instrument in the orchestra, plus synthesizers to add more! lol so the song is just extremely heavy and it a lot to absorb. if you're driving your car and wanting to jam out and dance while in traffic, this is great. but for a typical song, it's probably just too much. certainly would get you out on the dancefloor though

LYG is also a very dense song but i find it more catchy and the party lyric makes for a good vibe. both might have benefited from breaks in the track where the instruments drop and you can build back up.

as for the lyrics, it's my understanding that they were going for a somewhat similar concept as Love Machine and Dancing Machine, the allusion of the nonstop, can't stop action of a machine controlling your love and desires. here's the definition for a Drive Wheel from wikipedia

A drive wheel is a wheel of a motor vehicle that transmits force, transforming torque into tractive force from the tires to the road, causing the vehicle to move. The powertrain delivers enough torque to the wheel to overcome stationary forces, resulting in the vehicle moving forwards or backwards

[Ollie9]

The Album has always been one of my faves....
Although a terrific song, “Sweet Dream Machine” could possibly have suffered the same fate as “Driving Wheel” in possessing lyrics some peeps might have had difficulty relating to.
“Let Yourself Go” is a fine dance floor filler, but was perhaps just a little to frantic for mass public consumption.
“Don’t Want To Be Tied Down” has all the right ingredients of relatable lyrics and strong chorus. As such, it would have been my choice as lead single.
With radio support, “Come Into My Life” And “Closer Together” might have caught the record buying public’s imagination and chartered a new direction for the group.

[danman869]

Both Sup_Fan and Ollie9 said something [and apparently we can't quote from two different posts in one reply] regarding "Driving Wheel" and "Let Yourself Go." SF mentioned that DW was packed with instrumentation and a lot to take in--but it "certainly would get you out on the dancefloor." SF, I think that really WAS the point in the Hollands crafting these. People like to hate on disco after the fact, but... disco was definitely popular in it's time and 1976-77, people still wanted to go out and "boogie." "Driving Wheel" IS a song that makes you want to move. I think the Hollands could have found a key phrase that was a bit less...unusual than "Driving Wheel." Off the top of my head, how about: "You're The One I Need... you take me farther, than I been before! OW!" or how about "You Know What I Need, you take me farther than I been before..." Let's face it: whether Driving Wheel or those two other off-the-cuff idea I just made, the thrust [hehe] of the song is about SEX. The idea of a Driving Wheel and engines and motors is different than most pop songs of the time--which could be why they saw it as being unique--but... I can also see why some might be like, "wait--what the heck?!" I suspect that with like most lyric writers, some thing came to mind and they built upon it. Personally, I love the track [the intro and bridge both grab you], but the lyric is just OK. Like all "silly" lyrics of songs we listen to a lot, we sometimes just accept them for what they are...but might be a little embarrassed if others knew.

This leads me to what Ollie said about "Let Yourself Go." Listen, I don't "hate" the song, but... like Ollie said, "perhaps [it was] a little too frantic for mass public consumption." THAT's what I think. LYG is a fun LISTEN...but is a bit much and would have likely had people spinning all over the dance floor--and not in a good way. I think there's always the idea of "can you dance to this" with pop music. One of my personal favorites in the Supremes canon is "Forever Came Today." I think it was a triumph for HDH and really was fantastic.........but you can't dance to it. You can sing it along with Diana and The Andantes with drama and gusto, but... ya can't dance to it! Stop-start, stop-start. LOVE the drama of it...but.............ya can't dance to it. Anyway, I think perhaps LYG suffered somewhat from the opposite end of that. It's just so exhausting. Maybe the idea of letting yourself go, a frantic driving beat make sense [on paper], but... meh, I never thought "Let Yourself Go" was the single that would've put Mary, Scherrie & Susaye back on top.

[Ollie9]

Both Sup_Fan and Ollie9 said something [and apparently we can't quote from two different posts in one reply] regarding "Driving Wheel" and "Let Yourself Go." SF mentioned that DW was packed with instrumentation and a lot to take in--but it "certainly would get you out on the dancefloor." SF, I think that really WAS the point in the Hollands crafting these. People like to hate on disco after the fact, but... disco was definitely popular in it's time and 1976-77, people still wanted to go out and "boogie." "Driving Wheel" IS a song that makes you want to move. I think the Hollands could have found a key phrase that was a bit less...unusual than "Driving Wheel." Off the top of my head, how about: "You're The One I Need... you take me farther, than I been before! OW!" or how about "You Know What I Need, you take me farther than I been before..." Let's face it: whether Driving Wheel or those two other off-the-cuff idea I just made, the thrust [hehe] of the song is about SEX. The idea of a Driving Wheel and engines and motors is different than most pop songs of the time--which could be why they saw it as being unique--but... I can also see why some might be like, "wait--what the heck?!" I suspect that with like most lyric writers, some thing came to mind and they built upon it. Personally, I love the track [the intro and bridge both grab you], but the lyric is just OK. Like all "silly" lyrics of songs we listen to a lot, we sometimes just accept them for what they are...but might be a little embarrassed if others knew.

This leads me to what Ollie said about "Let Yourself Go." Listen, I don't "hate" the song, but... like Ollie said, "perhaps [it was] a little too frantic for mass public consumption." THAT's what I think. LYG is a fun LISTEN...but is a bit much and would have likely had people spinning all over the dance floor--and not in a good way. I think there's always the idea of "can you dance to this" with pop music. One of my personal favorites in the Supremes canon is "Forever Came Today." I think it was a triumph for HDH and really was fantastic.........but you can't dance to it. You can sing it along with Diana and The Andantes with drama and gusto, but... ya can't dance to it! Stop-start, stop-start. LOVE the drama of it...but.............ya can't dance to it. Anyway, I think perhaps LYG suffered somewhat from the opposite end of that. It's just so exhausting. Maybe the idea of letting yourself go, a frantic driving beat make sense [on paper], but... meh, I never thought "Let Yourself Go" was the single that would've put Mary, Scherrie & Susaye back on top.

An inspired thought dan. “Your The One I Need” or “Want” being a far more assessable title then “Your My Driving Wheel”.
I still think “I Don’t” Want To Be Tied Down” the more commercial song on the album, but “Your The One” would day have made for a solid follow up. An entire remix of the album would be especially nice.

[BayouMotownMan]

By this time, for most Motown artists, the producer decided what would be a lead single off an lp with or without Suzanne dePasse's approval. FYI, before High Energy was released the fan club had already told us that Let Your Heart Do The Walking would be the first single. I think that choice was a little obvious but that same happened with the MSS lp when were told ahead of time that Driving Wheel would be the first single. On first listen my preference was Sweet Dream Machine or Let Yourself Go. Driving Wheel was just so clunky.

[danman869]

Just for the heck of it [and I'm sure I'm not the first, nor will I be the last to do this], I opened the LP version of "Sweet Dream Machine" in my audio software, folded it down to mono [to recreate what would've likely been released as a single to AM radio], and faded it to end at 3:55 [which was the only point in the latter part of the song where it seemed the song had "gotten its' point across" and seemed able to be faded], and I think it would've been...pretty good as a single. I *do* like the song, but... I dunno. I just am not entirely sure if this was a song that would've launched the MSS Supremes higher. I feel like people generally expected a pop/dance song from The Supremes and [by 1976/77] that's what would've given them more exposure. A slinky, sexy slower song... perhaps more exposure via FM radio, but would it have captured the attention of the general public in single release? *shrugs*

I wish I had a way to share "my" single edit with everyone here, but... I'm sure you can basically do the same by listening to the LP version until 3:55 [LOL]. I would upload it to YouTube, but I suspect it would get zapped off by the Universal copyright police.

[danman869]

As long as I was listening to songs from MSS [the album] and thinking, "what might have made a good single," I took "Love I Never Knew You Could Feel So Good" and threw it [both the LP version AND the UK single edit] into my audio software. I stretched the time to 110% and... wow... the tempo slowed a bit and yet it was still danceable. I think that is something I'd always felt about the MSS album uptempo songs. THEY ARE SO EFFIN' FAST. They're...well, frantic! Should they have been slowed down just a bit to make them more dance/radio friendly. SURE, they are disco danceable as they are, but... that frantic quality may have either made it difficult for a "next single" to be chosen or whatever upbeat song released may have simply been off-putting to radio listeners--or programmers.

[Not to mention I think LINKYCFSG, while having a smoking track, suffers from less-than-perfect lyrics...and generally just goes in circles. Without great lyrics in the verses, it leans too hard on the title hook.]

Anyway, if you could hear it just slightly slower, let me know what you think. It also makes me wonder whether the Hollands recorded it at this slower tempo...and sped it up in 1976/77 mastering--either before vocals were recorded or after?

[TomatoTom123]

This is an interesting track, sort of like psychedelic disco. I'm not sure it would have made a great single… doesn’t sound very commercial to my ears [at least in its released form]. I prefer "You’re My Driving Wheel", "Love I Never Knew" and "Let Yourself Go" [in that order ].

[marybrewster]

I think this ties into something else; MSS on stage were more like a MESS on stage. Frantic is the perfect word. The fast pace of the disco beat was hard to replicate live. Sure, you had bands like Earth, Wind, and Fire, but those were more like orchestras. A drummer and a guitar and a keyboardist trying to pump out "Let Yourself Go" at 1000 BPM just isn't gonna work. Add to it Scherrie and Susaye playing "every woman for themselves" while Mary is running around twirling a chiffon scarf are what nightmares are made of.

[kenneth]

An inspired thought dan. “Your The One I Need” or “Want” being a far more assessable title then “Your My Driving Wheel”.
I still think “I Don’t” Want To Be Tied Down” the more commercial song on the album, but “Your The One” would day have made for a solid follow up. An entire remix of the album would be especially nice.

I agree. “Tied Down” is a great song and Scherrie really acts it, not just sings it. I love the bridge where it gets intense with the percussion or whatever it’s is that makes you wanna dance with your bath towel!

[sup_fan]

see i find Wheel more frantic that LYG. we danced all the time in college to LYG during the disco resurgence and everyone loved the song and were amazed it was The Supremes singing it.

here's what i think MIGHT have worked. of course this is just fantasy/speculation

Walking is released from the HE. and just like in real life, it takes a long time to really do anything on the charts. Diana's Love Hangover comes and goes and finally Walking starts to climb the charts. Motown sees the song's popularity in the clubs and asks to re-manage the group again as Walking enters the pop charts. motown ends up providing some decent publicity - nothing like DR's but better than what the girls had been getting. Walking goes gold and climbs almost to the top 10. the girls start getting more bookings on tv, like Midnight Special and others.

with motown managing, the act is revamped and cleaned up. the hollands still proceed with the new album, rather than releasing HE or You're What's Missing.

in fall 76, just as Walking drops out of the top 100, LYG is released as a single. building off of the sounds and style of Walking, the record goes #1 on disco [[as opposed to #5 in the real world) and goes top 20 again on pop charts and top 5 on r&b. the revamped show and solid chart performances help re-establish the act in larger, better-paying venues

Don't wanna be tied down is the follow up single and charts well, completing 3 strong, well charting disco tunes in a row.

it's now summer of 77 and time to update the sound. the industry is aware that something hot is brewing with the upcoming Saturday Night Fever movie and soundtrack. so the Hollands pull SDM from the MS&S album as the final single. using it to signal a new direction. now that the group has been more firmly re-established in the general public's view, has had some strong chart performances, considerable tv appearances, the new song is received well

[Ollie9]

I agree. “Tied Down” is a great song and Scherrie really acts it, not just sings it. I love the bridge where it gets intense with the percussion or whatever it’s is that makes you wanna dance with your bath towel!

Absolutely Kenneth. The drama in her voice really sells the song. When Scherrie shouts “NO” you know she’s not to be messed with. It was extremely radio friendly and a real missed opportunity.
Im now trying to imagine you dancing with your bath towel. A suitable shade of pink I hope.

[kenneth]

Absolutely Kenneth. The drama in her voice really sells the song. When Scherrie shouts “NO” you know she’s not to be messed with. It was extremely radio friendly and a real missed opportunity.
Im now trying to imagine you dancing with your bath towel. A suitable shade of pink I hope.

I guess I shouldn’t have gone there!!!

[daviddh]

Loved this album when it came out and thought it was a instant dance/ disco classic
I would have issued LYG first ,then SDM.
Loved both tracks along with You Are the Heart of Me.once again Motown dropped the ball, maybe on purpose but... Mary left six months later but maybe if this was a hit....
I also hoped for more..

[Spreadinglove21]

For me, the 3 most interesting songs on the MSS album, Sweet Dream Machine, Come Into My Life, and We Should Be closer Together, all have one thing in common--the credited arranger is a guy named Dale Warren. The other 5 songs were arranged by James Carmichael.

Does anyone have additional info about Warren and Carmichael? What other songs and albums did they work on?

[telekin]

For me, the 3 most interesting songs on the MSS album, Sweet Dream Machine, Come Into My Life, and We Should Be closer Together, all have one thing in common--the credited arranger is a guy named Dale Warren. The other 5 songs were arranged by James Carmichael.

Does anyone have additional info about Warren and Carmichael? What other songs and albums did they work on?

Oh, I love Dale Warren's work on the last two Supremes albums. In addition to those tracks on MSS, he was also the arranger on the majority of the HE LP.

It was something of a revelation recently when my partner brought an album by 24 Carat Black, a group helmed by none other than Dale Warren, himself. Called "Ghetto: Misfortune's Wealth," the album's been reissued a few times of course, but didn't do much when it was released in 1973 by Stax. Since then it had gone on to become something of a cult classic, a source of samples for many hip-hop producers over the years, from the likes of Eric B., Dr. Dre and Jay Z, to more recently, Kendrick Lamar. I think it's a pretty stunning concept album and you can get a sense of Warren's touch as an arranger and what he contributed to tracks like Sweet Dream Machine and We Should Be Closer Together, as an example.

The Numero Group which has been releasing many of his unreleased recordings has a good bio on him. Evidently he was also Raynoma Gordy's nephew and got his start as a staff arranger at Motown in 1961 while she was married to Berry. Apparently none of his arrangements at Motown made it on to record at the time, but his credits are quite extensive.

As far as James Carmichael goes, I recall his name as a child when listening to the Lionel Ritchie albums that my parents had. Ritchie and the Commodores were his biggest act, but I gather he was a Motown staff producer/arranger until the very end, even into the MCA years. I recall his name on later Motown albums by Ada Dyer, The Pointer Sisters and even Diana's "Force Behind The Power."

[telekin]

What other songs and albums did they work on?

Some more Supremes connections with Dale Warren - I have a 1978 album he produced for a female group on the Fantasy label called Softouch.

The album has a 24-Carat Black song, "Good Love Gone," re-worked in a disco style as well as "One Million Years," with lyrics and music written by our own Scherrie Payne.

Additionally Candice "Candi" Ghant was one of the group members. She would later be the "glamour girl" in the Mary Jane Girls and later co-wrote and co-produced the first FLOS single on Superstar International Records.

Anyway, that's enough nerding out for me!

[TomatoTom123]

Oh, I love Dale Warren's work on the last two Supremes albums. In addition to those tracks on MSS, he was also the arranger on the majority of the HE LP.

It was something of a revelation recently when my partner brought an album by 24 Carat Black, a group helmed by none other than Dale Warren, himself. Called "Ghetto: Misfortune's Wealth," the album's been reissued a few times of course, but didn't do much when it was released in 1973 by Stax. Since then it had gone on to become something of a cult classic, a source of samples for many hip-hop producers over the years, from the likes of Eric B., Dr. Dre and Jay Z, to more recently, Kendrick Lamar. I think it's a pretty stunning concept album and you can get a sense of Warren's touch as an arranger and what he contributed to tracks like Sweet Dream Machine and We Should Be Closer Together, as an example.

The Numero Group which has been releasing many of his unreleased recordings has a good bio on him. Evidently he was also Raynoma Gordy's nephew and got his start as a staff arranger at Motown in 1961 while she was married to Berry. Apparently none of his arrangements at Motown made it on to record at the time, but his credits are quite extensive.

As far as James Carmichael goes, I recall his name as a child when listening to the Lionel Ritchie albums that my parents had. Ritchie and the Commodores were his biggest act, but I gather he was a Motown staff producer/arranger until the very end, even into the MCA years. I recall his name on later Motown albums by Ada Dyer, The Pointer Sisters and even Diana's "Force Behind The Power."

I had never heard of Dale Warren until today, nor Ghetto: Misfortune's Wealth. Very interesting stuff, thanks telekin!!

[Spreadinglove21]

Oh, I love Dale Warren's work on the last two Supremes albums. In addition to those tracks on MSS, he was also the arranger on the majority of the HE LP.

It was something of a revelation recently when my partner brought an album by 24 Carat Black, a group helmed by none other than Dale Warren, himself. Called "Ghetto: Misfortune's Wealth," the album's been reissued a few times of course, but didn't do much when it was released in 1973 by Stax. Since then it had gone on to become something of a cult classic, a source of samples for many hip-hop producers over the years, from the likes of Eric B., Dr. Dre and Jay Z, to more recently, Kendrick Lamar. I think it's a pretty stunning concept album and you can get a sense of Warren's touch as an arranger and what he contributed to tracks like Sweet Dream Machine and We Should Be Closer Together, as an example.

The Numero Group which has been releasing many of his unreleased recordings has a good bio on him. Evidently he was also Raynoma Gordy's nephew and got his start as a staff arranger at Motown in 1961 while she was married to Berry. Apparently none of his arrangements at Motown made it on to record at the time, but his credits are quite extensive.

As far as James Carmichael goes, I recall his name as a child when listening to the Lionel Ritchie albums that my parents had. Ritchie and the Commodores were his biggest act, but I gather he was a Motown staff producer/arranger until the very end, even into the MCA years. I recall his name on later Motown albums by Ada Dyer, The Pointer Sisters and even Diana's "Force Behind The Power."

Thanks for the info telekin. I've just put 24 karat black on my Apple music stream and going to give it a listen. Just pulled out the High energy album credits and I see he arranged all the songs on it except I'm gonna Let My Heart. As High energy is one of my favorite 70s Supremes albums, I will give him kudos for his talent and creativity.

[blackguy69]

Little side note James Carmichael did the arrangements for I Guess I’ll Miss The Man