Would Freda Payne made a better lead singer for the Supremes than Scherrie?

[rod_rick]

Not to take anything from Scherrie but vocally would Freda Payne and better lead singer for the Supremes than Scherrie. Because of Freda's birthday a few of her songs have
come up so I thought I'd guess the group their thoughts.

[PeaceNHarmony]

WOW this one gets revived frequently. Answer: No.

[copley]

No, no & no again!

[jim aka jtigre99]

That is an odd question. Both are great singers but Scherrie had a spark, elegance and charisma that really lent itself to the Supremes. Freda is wonderfully talented but she would not have been a better fit than Scherrie especially in 1973!

[Spreadinglove21]

Freda had an established solo career going in 1973. Why would she put that on hold to join a group where the remaining original member was now in charge and looking to step up her presence and contributions to the group by singing more leads?

[jim aka jtigre99]

In Mary's defense, she had been left in the Supremes by both former lead singers Diana and Jean. She knew people were losing track of who was in the Supremes, that as the one consistent member that she had to step up and sing more leads so there was an identifiable voice regardless of who was in it. She said they considered Thelma Houston but Mary knew she wouldn't want to go from soloist into an already formed known group. Obviously, the same could be said for Freda if she had been considered. Scherrie blended into the group perfectly and shined as lead. She was ideal. Plus had Motown looked at the group more seriously going into the disco era, Scherrie was ideal in voice and glamour. By the time of MSS, all three sang lead and it would have helped branch out the group in many different directions-Scherrie for the fast dance tracks, Mary for the ballads and Susaye for the soulful songs. Mary even stated in terms of personality and talent, that Scherrie would have been the one she would have continued on with had she stayed. It seemed Mary got along in the group situation best with Scherrie and Cindy.

[BobbyC]

Scherrie was perfect for the group IMO

[captainjames]

Loved Freda and Loved Jean but if Lamont Dozier had of mentioned Scherrie as a replacement for Diana I think the group would have went through the roof. She was a powerhouse vocalist and gave some funk and soul to many of the Supreme songs. However, as I saw it and in my opinion it was too much too late and all we got was "crumbs off the table."

[Ollie9]

Loved Freda and Loved Jean but if Lamont Dozier had of mentioned Scherrie as a replacement for Diana I think the group would have went through the roof. She was a powerhouse vocalist and gave some funk and soul to many of the Supreme songs. However, as I saw it and in my opinion it was too much too late and all we got was "crumbs off the table."

Are you saying Jean was the wrong choice to replace Diana and the group would have faired better with Scherrie as lead from the off?.
They would have had to come up with an entirely different sound to accommodate Scherrie’s more robust vocal style. Could have, might have worked.

[Sotosound]

This is all water under the bridge, flowed out the sea, evaporated, rained onto land, found its way into a spring, flowed under the bridge, flowed out to sea... so many times.

Ultimately it will only lead to frustration and disagreement about what might have been had things been different, which they couldn't.

[khansperac]

Judging by Freda’s cool sexy outfits, visually she may have been what the Supremes needed to look more contemporary at that time.

[Ollie9]

This is all water under the bridge, flowed out the sea, evaporated, rained onto land, found its way into a spring, flowed under the bridge, flowed out to sea... so many times.

Ultimately it will only lead to frustration and disagreement about what might have been had things been different, which they couldn't.

As the group disbanded 45 years ago, i would say 95% of discussion is now truly water under the bridge. Personally i find it a refreshing change from missing frock beads or one’s favourite album.
Disagreement often makes for a more interesting forum. It would surely make for a dull place if all we did was nod our heads in agreement.

[TheMotownManiac]

As the group disbanded 45 years ago, i would say 95% of discussion is now truly water under the bridge. Personally i find it a refreshing change from missing frock beads or one’s favourite album.
Disagreement often makes for a more interesting forum. See above aIt would surely make for a dull place if all we did was nod our heads in agreement.

I completely agree

[TheMotownManiac]

Freda had an established solo career going in 1973. Why would she put that on hold to join a group where the remaining original member was now in charge and looking to step up her presence and contributions to the group by singing more leads?

‘She wouldn’t, but this is a hypothetical question. So, I think yes, Freda would have been better. I think she’s a more talented vocalist and I think her voice is better for radio. I think Sherry is cuter and would be able to make a better presentation if she was allowed to develop her visual presentation as the focal point of the group like Diana had. But that wasn’t going to be the case. Mary, I wanted to be the star of the group and there’s no way she was going to allow any new member to be the star. And I don’t blame her, of course, she was looking out for number one. But because she was looking out for number one, I think that for a while Mary wanted in the group that Fredo would’ve been a better fit and she certainly would have dealt with the classic Supremes sound in a better manner. I think Scherrie is adorable, But I think Freda has more style and is a more well-rounded singer. I also believe that Frida may have been a little tougher and wiser dealing with the ineptitude of Mary and Pedro running the group. But if they had someone who knew what they were doing running the group, and mary was willing to be a cherished featured part of the act but not at co-lead or anything like that, I think Frida had the command to give the group its best shot. She was also deeply entrenched in the music industry and I believe would have more to bring to the group from the outside like lynda was able to corral Stevie. It wouldn’t matter what anybody did if they couldn’t get any decent material, but I say yes to Freda and yes to Berry Gordy taking over the group. FML, FMC of even FMF Seem more powerful to me, and I think we might have had less of those horrible television appearances and the use of old gowns.

[Sotosound]

As the group disbanded 45 years ago, i would say 95% of discussion is now truly water under the bridge. Personally i find it a refreshing change from missing frock beads or one’s favourite album.
Disagreement often makes for a more interesting forum. It would surely make for a dull place if all we did was nod our heads in agreement.

Hmmmph! Snort!

[jim aka jtigre99]

Considering Freda's history with Berry [[get her book Band of Gold), maybe Berry may have been more involved in the group but his all consuming passion for Diana Ross was always going to be there. If Scherrie would have replaced Diana and not Jean, they definitely would have had a great visual and vocal appeal but Scherrie's voice was more like Flo's in power and Mary's in tone so the sound really would have had to be reworked. Jean always sounded like a cross between Diana Ross and Dionne Warwick, so the sound was similar and that would help with the change in lead yet her seemingly lack of the showbiz pizzazz and personality didn't keep the general public for long-perhaps, a new sound would have worked had Motown and Berry were more serious than just trying to make money off of the name.

[RanRan79]

It's hard for me to entertain the thought of Freda in the Supremes at the point when Scherrie joined, because by then Freda was a well seasoned soloist with her own career that I just don't believe she would have been willing to give up in order to join the Supremes.

Now, I do, however, think Freda might have been a good choice to replace Diana in 1970. Freda had the goods. She had a great voice, very radio friendly. She was gorgeous. She had a lot of energy. She comes across very well on stage. I think she could have easily embodied the Supremes' brand.

But honestly, by the time Scherrie came in, I think Mary should have just stepped into the lead role and gotten someone willing to back her, in addition to Cindy.

[Boogiedown]

Seems like had Freda had the slightest interest in girl grouping , she and her sister would have been the logical foundation for forming one.
Family ties seem to help the unity [unless it doesn’t Hee Hee ].

Hmmm have Freda and Scherrie ever dueted or shared a project ? Do they have siblings?

[Boogiedown]

Aha
maybe the door opens for the new Supremes ...featuring Freda, and Scherrie, and Mary!

And instead of continuing with The Supremes moniker they call themselves The Royal Pains !!

[TheMotownManiac]

It's hard for me to entertain the thought of Freda in the Supremes at the point when Scherrie joined, because by then Freda was a well seasoned soloist with her own career that I just don't believe she would have been willing to give up in order to join the Supremes.

Now, I do, however, think Freda might have been a good choice to replace Diana in 1970. Freda had the goods. She had a great voice, very radio friendly. She was gorgeous. She had a lot of energy. She comes across very well on stage. I think she could have easily embodied the Supremes' brand.

But honestly, by the time Scherrie came in, I think Mary should have just stepped into the lead role and gotten someone willing to back her, in addition to Cindy.

there is no way Frida would’ve done that in 1973, but I thought this was a hypothetical question. The entire industry needs a Supremes has slept tremendously since HDH left, accelerated by departures of Florence and Diana, plus lack of direction and lack of material. By 1971 Ross, the Supremes, the tops, Gladys, J5, Martha, and the others were all suffering from the lack of great material. Freda was aware of what was happening at the company and would probably not have joined the group while putting out subpar records on their number one acts the Jackson 5. Looking through the windows, maybe tomorrow, the corner of the sky, forever came today We’re not bad records, but they weren’t hits either. If they can’t get decent material to them, and ross, who allegedly was getting all the attention and all of the best material, was putting out singles like to reach out I’ll be there and surrender, both of which were begging for a creative input,

your suggestion of Mary becoming the lead in 1973, in my opinion, would have resulted in a quick and complete demise of the group. Interest and appreciation in Mary is heavily magnified in this forum, I don’t think she was anywhere near ready to front the group, her voice was not right for radio

[RanRan79]

there is no way Frida would’ve done that in 1973, but I thought this was a hypothetical question.

your suggestion of Mary becoming the lead in 1973, in my opinion, would have resulted in a quick and complete demise of the group. Interest and appreciation in Mary is heavily magnified in this forum, I don’t think she was anywhere near ready to front the group, her voice was not right for radio

Yeah, it was a hypothetical, and a good one at that. However, for me- a HUGE fan of Freda's 70s work, I have all the albums- it's a difficult scenario for me to wrap my head around. It just wouldn't have made sense. And while I think it's a perfectly valid argument to suggest that even my suggestion of Freda taking Diana's place doesn't make sense, I think a pre-"Band of Gold" Freda could have legitimately entertained the offer, if it were on the table.

As far as Mary goes, just a cursory roll of my mind of radio voices of the 1970s, I don't think Mary would have had any more trouble than anyone else if she had the right material. And with her being the original Supreme, I think if the focus were on her, it might have made the group feel familiar again, which a lot of y'all who were around then often claim was a problem, that the Supremes didn't feel like the Supremes anymore. Either way, whether Mary took the lead and been successful, or if the group really did end quicker than it ultimately did, what was there to lose? It's not like the Scherrie years put the group back on top anyway.

[Ollie9]

Hmmmph! Snort!

You know it makes sense lol.

[Ollie9]

I think having Scherrie introduced to the world as Diana’s replacement might have extended the groups longevity and even broadened their appeal.
Quite apart from her vibrant voice with matching personality, she was also a team player with no amount of ego on display.

[khansperac]

When Florence and then Diana left the group it was over. When 2/3 of a trio leaves the group is over. Luckily for the Supremes, they were so successful, there was going to be residual success. It didn’t matter who the replacement was, as long as she was was decent, and with public curiosity, they would be able to ride out the success train for a couple of years. Kudos should go to the songwriters. Without Ladder and Stone Love the end would have been much sooner.

[RanRan79]

When Florence and then Diana left the group it was over. When 2/3 of a trio leaves the group is over. Luckily for the Supremes, they were so successful, there was going to be residual success. It didn’t matter who the replacement was, as long as she was was decent, and with public curiosity, they would be able to ride out the success train for a couple of years. Kudos should go to the songwriters. Without Ladder and Stone Love the end would have been much sooner.

It's hard to argue against this. It's one thing to have 2/3 remaining, it's another thing to have 2/3 out. And as I've said before, what the 60s Supremes did, especially the Flo grouping, it cast such a long shadow that it was almost impossible for any future lineups to be judged on their own merits. The truth is that the 60s Supremes were just too big to realistically expect the success to carry on much further after Diana's exit, especially considering the fact that she was such a huge part of the success. That's why it might have made more sense to end the group there and send both Diana and Mary into solo careers, or let Mary, Cindy and Jean, or whomever else, carry on under a new name with the opportunity of carving out their own place. I mean, can you imagine a lineup of Beatles with maybe Ringo as the only original? Would those dudes have really stood a chance? I think not.

[khansperac]

Yes I agree. The group should have ended. Jean should have been a solo act.

[RanRan79]

I think it's possible that Jean would have been much happier as a solo act. I believe a lot of people never really take the time to consider what being in a group really entails. It's not easy, with your artistic and professional life hinging on being in collaboration with others. In an alternate reality, it would be interesting to see how well Jean Terrell soloist fared. I'm wild about that lady's voice. She's one of my "can sing the phone book" singers. I wonder if she had any songwriting ability. Jean Terrell, singer/songwriter, is intriguing also.

[rod_rick]

Yeah, it was a hypothetical, and a good one at that. However, for me- a HUGE fan of Freda's 70s work, I have all the albums- it's a difficult scenario for me to wrap my head around. It just wouldn't have made sense. And while I think it's a perfectly valid argument to suggest that even my suggestion of Freda taking Diana's place doesn't make sense, I think a pre-"Band of Gold" Freda could have legitimately entertained the offer, if it were on the table.

As far as Mary goes, just a cursory roll of my mind of radio voices of the 1970s, I don't think Mary would have had any more trouble than anyone else if she had the right material. And with her being the original Supreme, I think if the focus were on her, it might have made the group feel familiar again, which a lot of y'all who were around then often claim was a problem, that the Supremes didn't feel like the Supremes anymore. Either way, whether Mary took the lead and been successful, or if the group really did end quicker than it ultimately did, what was there to lose? It's not like the Scherrie years put the group back on top anyway.

I like your answer here. I posed this question because I was listening to some of Freda's music from that time period and thought Freda's voice may have fit the Supremes sound more than Scherrie, because Scherrie's voice a drastic departure from the typical Supreme sound.

[Ollie9]

Well i for one remain rather happy the group didn’t end in 1970. They continued to score major hits, release enjoyable albums and entertain in concerts.
I think Jean lacked the drive, commitment and personality needed for a solo career. A Diana she was most certainly not.

[RanRan79]

I like your answer here. I posed this question because I was listening to some of Freda's music from that time period and thought Freda's voice may have fit the Supremes sound more than Scherrie, because Scherrie's voice a drastic departure from the typical Supreme sound.

I absolutely believe Freda's voice would have worked better than Scherrie's, for the very reason you state.

[RanRan79]

Well i for one remain rather happy the group didn’t end in 1970. They continued to score major hits, release enjoyable albums and entertain in concerts.
I think Jean lacked the drive, commitment and personality needed for a solo career. A Diana she was most certainly not.

I don't think there's any evidence that Jean "lacked drive, commitment or personality needed for a solo career". She obviously had drive, which is why she was a professional singer in the first place, and eventually led the most famous female singing group in the world. I really don't think it's fair for anyone to question Jean's commitment to the Supremes. She did her job, and very well if I may say so, for the years she was in the group. Her dissatisfaction with her job shouldn't be thrown at her feet. How many of us have loved our jobs until we didn't because of office politics, or new management, etc? Or loved our profession but hated our place of employment?

If I base my opinion on what Mary wrote about Jean, as well as the rumblings of supposed insiders around the forum and net, I don't think Jean had the personality that made her perfect for a singing group. She was very individual minded and IMO that made her a better fit as a soloist than as a member of ensemble. Jean also had ideas about the way she wanted her career to play out, and sadly, it appears she never had anyone in her corner willing to help her accomplish that. Supposedly her time at A&M came to an abrupt end because she was unwilling to do certain things to promote her work. What those things were is never specified. But in my mind, unless those things were get on stage and sing, get in front of the camera and sing, or some such other reasonable direction, she had the right to draw lines and demand she not be forced to cross them. Too many folks in the industry were [[are) willing to sell their souls to be stars, whether they became stars or not. I would have to commend Jean for having standards.

No, she was not Diana Ross, nor should she be compared to her. Each lady was her own person [[is her own person). They did not possess the same character traits, thank God. But I don't think anything about Jean Terrell made her less of a good solo act than Diana Ross. Comparing the two is mostly apples and oranges...mostly.

Btw, did I say how much I love Jean Terrell? Can you tell?

[Ollie9]

I don't think there's any evidence that Jean "lacked drive, commitment or personality needed for a solo career". She obviously had drive, which is why she was a professional singer in the first place, and eventually led the most famous female singing group in the world. I really don't think it's fair for anyone to question Jean's commitment to the Supremes. She did her job, and very well if I may say so, for the years she was in the group. Her dissatisfaction with her job shouldn't be thrown at her feet. How many of us have loved our jobs until we didn't because of office politics, or new management, etc? Or loved our profession but hated our place of employment?

If I base my opinion on what Mary wrote about Jean, as well as the rumblings of supposed insiders around the forum and net, I don't think Jean had the personality that made her perfect for a singing group. She was very individual minded and IMO that made her a better fit as a soloist than as a member of ensemble. Jean also had ideas about the way she wanted her career to play out, and sadly, it appears she never had anyone in her corner willing to help her accomplish that. Supposedly her time at A&M came to an abrupt end because she was unwilling to do certain things to promote her work. What those things were is never specified. But in my mind, unless those things were get on stage and sing, get in front of the camera and sing, or some such other reasonable direction, she had the right to draw lines and demand she not be forced to cross them. Too many folks in the industry were [[are) willing to sell their souls to be stars, whether they became stars or not. I would have to commend Jean for having standards.

No, she was not Diana Ross, nor should she be compared to her. Each lady was her own person [[is her own person). They did not possess the same character traits, thank God. But I don't think anything about Jean Terrell made her less of a good solo act than Diana Ross. Comparing the two is mostly apples and oranges...mostly.

Btw, did I say how much I love Jean Terrell? Can you tell?

I really cant imagine A & M wanted anything more from her other then to the promote the album as best she could. It really was her big chance to stand alone and she blew it. That’s really why i question the commitment to her craft.
Forgetting Diana, for me Jean lacked personality when compared to Mary. She is never my main focus when viewing footage of tv appearances. That’s not to say i didn’t think she did a splendid job in filling the shoes of a superstar such as Diana Ross. A difficult task for whoever.

[RanRan79]

I really cant imagine A & M wanted anything more from her other then to the promote the album as best she could. It really was her big chance to stand alone and she blew it. That’s really why i question the commitment to her craft.
Forgetting Diana, for me Jean lacked personality when compared to Mary. She is never my main focus when viewing footage of tv appearances. That’s not to say i didn’t think she did a splendid job in filling the shoes of a superstar such as Diana Ross. A difficult task for whoever.

Too many stories about the ugly side of the business to think Jean just didn't want to promote the album as best she could. Innocently, I can't imagine that A&M wanted her to do anything she hadn't already done as a Supreme. So if that were the extent of their desires, why would she be opposed to that? Perhaps they wanted her to be sexier. It was the disco age. Maybe they wanted her to ooze "Love to Love You Baby" on stage rather than "You Light Up My Life". Lol

Jean was no dummy. At this point in the game she was a veteran in the business. So in 1978 she had to know what should be reasonably expected when she signed the contract. To then go "You want me to do what?" just doesn't make sense. It makes me believe there was some shenanigans going on that Jean just wasn't with. And it's a shame because as great as she is, she deserved a much more extensive post Supremes discography than she ended up with. As a fan of Jean I don't need her to rack up number one hits and sell platinum albums. Just being able to have a plethora of her music through the years is enough for me. Thank God for her work as a Supreme. At least we have quite a bit of that.

[Ollie9]

Too many stories about the ugly side of the business to think Jean just didn't want to promote the album as best she could. Innocently, I can't imagine that A&M wanted her to do anything she hadn't already done as a Supreme. So if that were the extent of their desires, why would she be opposed to that? Perhaps they wanted her to be sexier. It was the disco age. Maybe they wanted her to ooze "Love to Love You Baby" on stage rather than "You Light Up My Life". Lol

Jean was no dummy. At this point in the game she was a veteran in the business. So in 1978 she had to know what should be reasonably expected when she signed the contract. To then go "You want me to do what?" just doesn't make sense. It makes me believe there was some shenanigans going on that Jean just wasn't with. And it's a shame because as great as she is, she deserved a much more extensive post Supremes discography than she ended up with. As a fan of Jean I don't need her to rack up number one hits and sell platinum albums. Just being able to have a plethora of her music through the years is enough for me. Thank God for her work as a Supreme. At least we have quite a bit of that.

Until we get that book we will never quite know all the details, though i’d be rather surprised if the record label were insisting on a sexier image. Donna Summer she was not. Mary does mention that Jean could be rather difficult, so who knows.
I enjoy the majority of her recordings with the exception of the JW album, where she has a tendency to come across as quite shrill at times.
If only she could have been more like Diana Ross everything would have worked out just fine.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Speaking of Jean, had she not replaced Diana in the Supremes would she have been a solo singer at Motown? I certainly don't see Motown giving her much success as a soloist no matter how amazing her voice was. Motown and Berry had a one track mind and that was Diana. Did they do as much as they should have for Gladys Knight, Martha Reeves,Thelma Houston, Blinky, Brenda Holloway, Mary Wilson et al? If they didn't give as much attention to the Supremes with their history what would they have done with Jean Terrell by herself? Perhaps, Jean wasn't a group mentality performer but she has been written about that she had a mind of her own [[and good for her) but so did Florence Ballard and we see how receptive Berry was to her[[although she presented far more problems than that). But, how do you think Motown would have presented her as a soloist. I know they didn't have Scherrie do more than that one solo single Fly before they teamed her with Susaye.

[RanRan79]

Until we get that book we will never quite know all the details, though i’d be rather surprised if the record label were insisting on a sexier image. Donna Summer she was not. Mary does mention that Jean could be rather difficult, so who knows.
I enjoy the majority of her recordings with the exception of the JW album, where she has a tendency to come across as quite shrill at times.
If only she could have been more like Diana Ross everything would have worked out just fine.

Yeah, there's all this speculation about Jean but we really need her to give us her side of the story. It's like everyone else is trying to tell the Jean Terrell story except the lady herself, which wouldn't be unusual if she was dead, but she's still very much alive. I can't see there being a Dreamgirl market for Jean's book, but to have her recollections in print for historical purposes is very necessary. My fingers are still crossed that Cindy's proposed autobiography had begun enough for quite a bit of her memories before she took ill and that we'll see a book about her at some point. All these singers were a part of history. When they die, they take what they know with them.

[Ollie9]

Speaking of Jean, had she not replaced Diana in the Supremes would she have been a solo singer at Motown? I certainly don't see Motown giving her much success as a soloist no matter how amazing her voice was. Motown and Berry had a one track mind and that was Diana. Did they do as much as they should have for Gladys Knight, Martha Reeves,Thelma Houston, Blinky, Brenda Holloway, Mary Wilson et al? If they didn't give as much attention to the Supremes with their history what would they have done with Jean Terrell by herself? Perhaps, Jean wasn't a group mentality performer but she has been written about that she had a mind of her own [[and good for her) but so did Florence Ballard and we see how receptive Berry was to her[[although she presented far more problems than that). But, how do you think Motown would have presented her as a soloist. I know they didn't have Scherrie do more than that one solo single Fly before they teamed her with Susaye.

I suppose it might depend a on the level of success a Jean solo album might have achieved. Had it proved a monster hit, Motown would be cutting off its own nose by not getting behind her.
Would BG have put personal feelings in dealing with an opinionated Jean above making money who knows?. His obsession with making Diana a superstar proved a major stumbling block for more then a few.

[RanRan79]

Speaking of Jean, had she not replaced Diana in the Supremes would she have been a solo singer at Motown? I certainly don't see Motown giving her much success as a soloist no matter how amazing her voice was. Motown and Berry had a one track mind and that was Diana. Did they do as much as they should have for Gladys Knight, Martha Reeves,Thelma Houston, Blinky, Brenda Holloway, Mary Wilson et al? If they didn't give as much attention to the Supremes with their history what would they have done with Jean Terrell by herself? Perhaps, Jean wasn't a group mentality performer but she has been written about that she had a mind of her own [[and good for her) but so did Florence Ballard and we see how receptive Berry was to her[[although she presented far more problems than that). But, how do you think Motown would have presented her as a soloist. I know they didn't have Scherrie do more than that one solo single Fly before they teamed her with Susaye.

Berry may have been pleased enough when he caught her performance to offer her a contract as a solo even if he wasn't in need of a replacement Supreme. Berry didn't stop signing female acts because of Diana Ross. However, we do know that in the early 70s, aside from Diana, Gladys, and even the Supremes, initially, there wasn't a lot of attention being given to the label's female acts. So in all likelihood, Jean would have just ended up hitless and unhappy. Motown was not the place for her.

At another label, I think Jean could have been a star. Maybe she would've started out with a Dionne Warwick type catalog. By the middle of the decade, I could hear her doing the type of stuff Natalie Cole was doing. Like any singer out there, it's all about finding the right pieces. It's not enough to just have singing ability. The Supremes and the Temptations are always my go to examples for this. Both groups very talented, vocally. Both groups had good stage presence. Both groups were visually appealing. But single after single failed to do anything because the material wasn't exactly right. And then one day everything comes together to create a legend. So wherever Jean ended up, in order for it to be a success, she would have needed the right material and direction. I think the 70s would have been perfect for her success as a solo, just not with Motown.