Shady: The Jackson 5 RRHOF

[marybrewster]

Does anyone have a clear idea why Randy was excluded when J5 was inducted into the RRHOF?

[sansradio]

Because Randy wasn't officially a part of the group at its inception. He started filling in on congas a couple of years into their Motown stint.

[reese]

Not quite sure. The only thing I can think of is that he didn't officially become a member until 1976, which didn't meet the 25-year eligibility rule, as they were inducted in 1997. There doesn't seem to be consistency when it comes to including non-original members.

[Jerry Oz]

Was Randy an official member of the Jackson 5? He took Jermaine's place when the group switched labels and they became the Jacksons. The name "Jackson 5" belonged to Motown. It might sound like equivocation, but I can understand the hair that's being split, since the first iteration of the ensemble was the most historically significant.

[stupidactingsmart]

As people say, he wasn't officially in the J5; the same reason he didn't come on to the stage at the very start when the group made their appearance at Motown 25. But it was great that MJ shouted him on during the Love You Save and he took his bow as a part of the band. Even though he wasn't a J5 member, he was obviously there with them and often performing, for most of it.

[marybrewster]

I had forgotten about the 25 year rule. I guess I just figured for a "family band", some consession would have been made to include him. I know it's said he didn't become an "official" member until Epic, but then you have stories of him playing congas as early as 1972, and appearing in Vegas [[and on Johnny Carson as the "Jackson 6") in 1974.

[reese]

I had forgotten about the 25 year rule. I guess I just figured for a "family band", some consession would have been made to include him. I know it's said he didn't become an "official" member until Epic, but then you have stories of him playing congas as early as 1972, and appearing in Vegas [[and on Johnny Carson as the "Jackson 6") in 1974.

There's a cute clip when the J5 presented an award to the Pips at the 1974 Grammys. Right before they announced the winner, Randy dropped the mike. Randy and Janet even had a recording as well, "A LOVE SONG FOR KIDS". But Randy didn't appear on an album cover until their first for Epic, THE JACKSONS.

[motony]

I would think they could have insisted on him being part of the RRHOF, just like it was Martha Reeves that insisted that all Vandellas [[Motown) be inducted.

[marybrewster]

I would think they could have insisted on him being part of the RRHOF, just like it was Martha Reeves that insisted that all Vandellas [[Motown) be inducted.

Are we certain Sandy was inducted? I've always heard this, but she's no where listed on the RRHOF site.

[PeaceNHarmony]

No shade. The group is the Jackson 5, and the 5 were inducted.

[bradsupremes]

I have some Rock Hall insight here so I hope I can answer some of these questions...

1.) The 25-year eligibility rule applies a band/artist's first commercial single. It doesn't mean a member of a group/band has to have been in the group for 25 years. Bands have been inducted with members who joined long after the first release.

2.) Regarding Randy, he likely wasn't included because he technically wasn't a member of the Jackson Five. He joined after the group's explosion of popularity and influence and because he wasn't an original member it may explain why he wasn't included. It's a possibility the brothers didn't feel he should have been included. They may have wanted it to be just them.

3.) There is a debate about why some people are included and some are excluded. I wish I had a clear answer but the waters are muddy. The Cindy Birdsong exclusion is one that stands out. Rumors circulated Mary purposely excluded her from being included and while bands/groups do have some say in who they'd like to included, ultimately it's left to the foundation to decide. Mary could have expressed she didn't want Cindy inducted but it wasn't her call or say. I've heard Diana also expressed she only wanted it to be the original trio. The foundation probably thought "Well, the two surviving original members want only want it to be the original trio so that's what we'll do." The foundation tends to induct members of bands/groups who were there during the group's peak of influence and success. Cindy certainly was part of that for the Supremes and should have been inducted but it's very likely the foundation looked at what Diana, Mary, and Florence did and felt the original trio was all that was needed along with Diana and Mary's wishes. If you look at the Temptations, Dennis Edwards was included but Richard Street and Damon Harris weren't. Joe Long wasn't included with the Four Seasons. Bruce Johnston wasn't included with the Beach Boys. Sonny Turner wasn't included with the Platters. It's very complex and makes no sense. Again, I wish there was an easy answer to this question but there isn't.

4.) I can confirm Sandra Tilley was NOT inducted with Martha & the Vandellas. I suspect originally it was going to be Martha, Roz, Annette and Betty, Martha asked for Lois to be included, and that was that. I see no reason why Sandra should have been inducted - she didn't earn it.

[stingbeelee]

Hi Bradsupremes; regarding Martha & The Vandellas, I would agree with you. From what I heard and saw, the initial press releases stated it was going to be Martha, Roz, Annette and Betty. Martha had to ask specifically to include Lois, as initially she was not going to be inducted as a Vandella. Perhaps Diana or Mary didn't know to proactively ask for Cindy to be included. That maybe the key for members, to be proactive and loud about who you would want to be included.
That's why I was pissed off regarding the Miracles, Smokey should've declined induction until the Miracles were included. I don't know what the RRHOF was thinking on that one.
The nightmares come up with groups like the Drifters and Paliament/Funkadelic. How does one decide who should be in and who shouldn't?

[Boogiedown]

Could even be argued that Randy is more entitled than jermaine , who voluntarily left the J5 making him a non member.

why would Smokey care about the miracles ? He dumped them permanently decades prior.
parliament is a good one , same for War or EWF or tower of Power. The bigger the ensemble , the bigger the revolving door .

Fifty years from now no one will give a rats sss anyway.

[marybrewster]

Regarding the Supremes, is it safe to say that both Mary and Diana had a voice as to who was included and who wasn't? I know over the years, Mary took a lot of heat with the assumption that she purposely excluded Cindy. But one would think Diana had just as much say. I mean it's not like they only went to Ringo in regards to the Beatles. Which I guess brings up a good question:

Why would Martha alone have say as to who was included in the Vandellas? Is it because it was "her" group? Shouldn't at least Roz have some say? What about groups [[in theory) like Tony Orlando and Dawn?

[bradsupremes]

Technically Smokey was not qualified to be inducted as a solo artist in 1987. He had only been a solo artist since 1972 which at the time was 15 years. 1997 was his first year of eligibility as a solo artist. The Rock Hall Foundation was including his Miracles work as a legitimate reason for his induction in 1987. The Miracles really should have been the ones inducted and for Smokey not to say something or demand for their inclusion with him doesn’t look good on him. Fortunately the Rock Hall rectified this error in 2012 and inducted the Miracles by a special committee but by that time Marv Tarplin and Ronnie White were not around to see the acclaim they deserved.

It’s a tricky situation when it comes to one member having say over who should be inducted. Recently Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails and Robert Smith of The Cure helped to determine who they wanted to be inducted as they started and ultimately lead the groups. The Rock Hall may have relented to Martha’s wish to include Lois especially if Annette, Betty, and Roz had no objections which I can’t imagine they cared. On another perspective when you have a group that involves multiple people of significance and recognition, one person really doesn’t have the final say. In 1988, Diana was a superstar but Mary was very much in the public eye with the success of Dreamgirl. The foundation likely listened to the both of them and I suspect that despite all the turmoil going on between them at the time they were likely on the same page about the induction being just the three of them.

As for Randy, I don’t think the argument he was more entitled to be included over Jermaine holds up. People leaving bands has no effect on their inclusion. Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck had relatively short stays with the Yardbirds and both left to pursue other career options. None of that effected their inclusion with the band’s induction. The statistics hold up that Jermaine sang and performed on all of their major classic hits. Randy didn’t. He came after that phenomena magic of 1969-1972.

[Spreadinglove21]

I know when Heart was inducted into the Rock Hall of Fame, Ann Wilson tried to get Mark Andes and Denny Carmassi, Heart's bassist and drummer on their mid to late 80s hits [[that was Heart's commercial peak though maybe not artistic peak) inducted along with the original members of the line up. Hall said no so Mark and Denny not included.

[khansperac]

Smokey as a singer/ more importantly a songwriter, more than deserved to be inducted alone. We are taking about Smokey Robinson here.

[bradsupremes]

Smokey as a singer/ more importantly a songwriter, more than deserved to be inducted alone. We are taking about Smokey Robinson here.

I agree, but Smokey was inducted in the performer category. He was only a solo artist for 15 years in 1987 and by rules was 10 years away from being eligible for his solo work. Technically he shouldn’t have been inducted when he did and there are many who see that as one of the Rock Hall’s first blunders. Not saying he shouldn’t have been inducted as a solo artist but just not at that time. For some strange reason the Foundation wasn’t thinking about that or felt he was the only one that mattered. They just knew Smokey had been performing for over 30 years and thus felt he was eligible. But it really should have been the Miracles that were inducted first. I know it upset Bobby and Claudette. Smokey should have done the right thing and demanded the Miracles he inducted with him. He didn’t and that was wrong.

Smokey could be inducted a second time for his songwriting and production work but with a backlog of so many other songwriters/producers who’ve yet to be included and more deserving, I think a second inductee is likely to never happen.

What has troubled me about the Miracles’ eventual induction in 2012 was they were regarded as a “backing band.” A special committee decided to right some wrongs and inducted the Comets, the Crickets, the Midnighters, and the Famous Flames along with the Miracles after their lead singers were - many were inductees in the first few years of the Hall of Fame. The difference is that the Miracles were not a backing band. They were a full vocal group with Smokey as lead. No different from the Supremes, Four Tops, Temptations. So I’ve always had trouble with the term that’s been used.

[stupidactingsmart]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAYVORXIXOc" target="_blank"> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAYVORXIXOc

Jackson 5 play "It's Too Late To Change The Time" in 1974 [[with a live vocal!) and Randy's playing on the bongos. Not only is he with them, but Carson introduces them as "the SIX brothers known as the Jackson 5."

Randy may not be 'official' but he was pretty much always a part of it.

[TomatoTom123]

I think Randy not being inducted is unfortunate, as he’s definitely contributed to the group over the years. IMO The Jacksons made a number of classics in their post-Motown era.

I think it also seems harsh because The Jackson 5 are a family group, and he was the only brother not inducted [as opposed to groups made up of non-related members!!]