Diana Ross and the Black Magic album

[sup_fan]

Martha has stated that many of the tapes she received for the Black Magic project had Diana's name on them, meaning the songs were initially intended for her

not really sure if that's true or not or which song[[s) were intended for her

But makes an interesting discussion. How do you think Diana would have handled the BM project [[lol) frankly it's one of my favorite MRATV releases. pretty much every track is a knockout. although I think her solo MCA album is even better!! love the more rock 'n roll feeling of it and that more aggressive vocal fits her perfectly

[reese]

I don't really hear Diana doing most of these songs. Perhaps that's why the project was passed on to Martha. But it might be nice to hear Diana tackle NO ONE THERE, BLESS YOU, and I'VE GIVEN YOU THE BEST YEARS OF MY LIFE.

[captainjames]

The ones I think my of had Diana's name on them are "I Want You Back" because Motown may of had Diana in mind for that song prior to the Jackson 5 and "Running in and Out of My Life" because its an Ashford and Simpson song. Since Martha didn't say which songs we just have to guess if true. I think Martha and The Vandellas did an awesome job with what they had before them and it was pure classic gold.

[reese]

The ones I think my of had Diana's name on them are "I Want You Back" because Motown may of had Diana in mind for that song prior to the Jackson 5 and "Running in and Out of My Life" because its an Ashford and Simpson song. Since Martha didn't say which songs we just have to guess if true. I think Martha and The Vandellas did an awesome job with what they had before them and it was pure classic gold.

TEAR IT ON DOWN was the Ashford and Simpson production on this album but it had been done by Marvin Gaye years prior.

[REDHOT]

Diana Ross recorded Tear It On Down, on her Surrender album.

[reese]

Diana Ross recorded Tear It On Down, on her Surrender album.

Diana didn't record TEAR IT ON DOWN. If she did, it hasn't been released.

[lucky2012]

Diana didn't record TEAR IT ON DOWN. If she did, it hasn't been released.

I’m A Winner by Ashford & Simpson was on Surrender, previously recorded by Martha Reeves on Sugar’N’Spice in 1969.

[reese]

I’m A Winner by Ashford & Simpson was on Surrender, previously recorded by Martha Reeves on Sugar’N’Spice in 1969.

Diana's I'M A WINNER had A-side potential, IMO.

[lucky2012]

Diana's I'M A WINNER had A-side potential, IMO.

51 years later, I agree. In 1971, I especially liked And If You See Him, All The Befores and I’ll Settle For You. I leaned more to pop, which is why I loved the Supremes.

[TheMotownManiac]

Martha has stated that many of the tapes she received for the Black Magic project had Diana's name on them, meaning the songs were initially intended for her

not really sure if that's true or not or which song[[s) were intended for her

But makes an interesting discussion. How do you think Diana would have handled the BM project [[lol) frankly it's one of my favorite MRATV releases. pretty much every track is a knockout. although I think her solo MCA album is even better!! love the more rock 'n roll feeling of it and that more aggressive vocal fits her perfectly

I think the songs that were probably initially sent to Diana:

I want you back - There is no question in my mind that Deke wrote that chorus specifically for her. It’s perfect for her and Michael sings at exactly like she would have.

no one there
your love makes it all worthwhile
Benjamin
i’ve given you the best years of my life. I don’t believe they would’ve crafted that for Martha because they were trying to get started and Martha was charting very poorly.

I know that Deke wrote bless you specifically for Martha, and I think the production is fantastic but, have you gone to diana or JMC, I think it would’ve hit big. Radio was done with Martha, sadly.

[danman869]

I know that a few of the Black Magic tracks were confirmed to have been originally assigned to Diana [as an example, "Hope I Don't Get My Heart Broke" was tracked in August 1970, assigned to Diana, and then reassigned to the Vandellas later in '70 and recorded] and all the things we've theorized here. I believe it. Diana as a solo artist was probably the one artist each writer/producer aspired to work with and likely cut things they felt would suit and appeal to her...but some things got shot down and eventually given to others.

Not saying this was recorded, but I could hear the JMC-Supremes singing the version of "Anyone Who Had A Heart" on BM. I could ever hear Jean's delicate voice singing "Benjamin" and "[I've Given You] The Best Years Of My Life," but... as far as we know, that never happened. [As a hit solo artist, I don't know that Diana would've recorded AWHAH for anything other than an album cut--which probably would've been the case for The Sups. Also, interesting to note, DMF sang AWHAH in their live act in 1964--too bad they never got a crack at it in the studio. Although it was a tad screechy in the live version, IMO.

This discussion of BM and who the material may have been originally assigned to or likely better off with, I don't think there was any released material produced by The Corporation on The Supremes. I wonder why? Yes, Frank Wilson was doing well throughout 1970 with crafting a new Supremes sound, but... nothing? No shot at producing them? It wasn't like The Supremes weren't hot that year [and even into early 1971] and weren't worthy of attention from a proven writing and production team like The Corp. As TMM posted above, he believes that if "Bless You" had gone to either Diana OR The Supremes, it would've hit big--bigger than any chart action it had with Martha. It just occurred to me today there was nothing ever released by The Supremes from The Corporation. Should there have been or was everything perfect as it was?

[TheMotownManiac]

As a rule, producers at Motown had a shot at anyone. Generally, a producer would get an idea of a song with a certain arrangement for a certain artist perhaps, and then produce the track with a demo vocal. Then, hopefully present it to that act. In the case of diana ross, maybe those things had to go through Gordy first, I don’t know. That producers, did these tracks at their own expense and could not bill out for them until they got an act to lay down a vocal for it, at that time they got billed whether it was released or not. Johnny Bristol was not working with The Supremes, yet when Junior Walker refused to record over the rainbow and I think MacArthur Park, he got Diana to do them, not in the right key, but what did he care? He wanted to get it built to somebody. Deke Richards certainly could work with whoever he wanted to. No one asked him to do bless you for Martha, he wanted to do it because he wanted to make up for the debacle that was I can’t dance to the music you’re playing. By mid 1971, Motown was looking for other producers for JMC and I am sure would’ve welcomed some input from Deke. Remember Norman produced ain’t too proud to beg and he was not working with the Temptations at all.

conversely, if a production was commissioned by Motown, then Motown would assume the production costs and probably charge the act that they were working with. So I would imagine that the Beatles album and the tracks that became everything is everything which were commissioned by Motown, were either paid for by the company or guaranteed to be recorded by diana ross in this case.

Since Deke was the driving force of the corporation, I assume they just didn’t have anything that they felt was suitable for the girls or maybe they for whatever reason weren’t interested in working with them at the time. If I close my eyes, I can hear Jean doing a killer job and bless you just as if I was listening to it. Not so much with Diana but it would be have to be in a different key. One thing I would not change his the background singing because they sound perfect. I could see Jay MC or ross taking it definitely top-five may be number one. I really love that track and it was perfect for radio. It might’ve been slightly too bubble gummy for Diana, but maybe that could’ve been adjusted. i’m sorry that it didn’t work out with Martha, it’s the shot in the arm I thought they needed. I would’ve had the girls record it with smoky producing the vocals with the same track and put it on Floy joy or Jimmy Webb. I think they would’ve gone all the way with it I think it’s every bit as good or better, actually than want ads.

[danman869]

Johnny Bristol was not working with The Supremes, yet when Junior Walker refused to record over the rainbow and I think MacArthur Park, he got Diana to do them, not in the right key, but what did he care? He wanted to get it built to somebody.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I think you might be confusing artists, however, as according to Andy's research when doing the Supremes' Lost & Found, "MacArthur Park" and "Over The Rainbow" were both recorded and first assigned to Billy Eckstine, not Junior Walker [with whom Johnny Bristol was doing a lot of work with when those tracks were recorded in 1968].

One last thing I've wanted to ask--with no judgment, but just curiosity: do you post on here using voice-to-text software? I've often seen "typos" in your other posts that seem to suggest that a voice-to-text translation hadn't picked up what seemed to be intended. [Example: your post above said, "Jay MC" instead of "JMC," and song title "Over The Rainbow" wasn't capitalized where as "MacArthur Park"--coincidentally a real place--was.] Just one of those things I've wondered about for a while now.

[TheMotownManiac]

Yes I do. And I’ve been told that my posts are shameful looking and won’t be taken seriously. Since Covid, it has become a lot easier for me to post that way and I always mean to go back and correct problems and I do correct a lot of them as I go. I just forget to proof them. And you’re right it was Billy Eckstine! Thank you, for years I’ve been saying Junior Walker LOL. My closest friend nags me about this often, but sometimes it’s just the best I can do.

[sup_fan]

in 69 and into early 70 [[really until after Ladder was a smash) the Sups were certainly open to any and everyone. except maybe whomever was first in line for Diana. like A&S. i don't have my bootlets or scans in front of me so not really exactly sure when Diana did the Bones material and when she started working with A&S. and of course we really don't know, aside from the L&F set, what she was doing in the later half of 69. was she working with Norman a little? did Frank do anything with her? he'd done magic with I'm Gonna Make You Love Me and as part of the Clan on Love Child. it would be crazy to think they didn't explore at least some Frank Wilson material with Diana.

from late 69 through early 71 the writers and producers MJC worked with include:

Henry Cosby
The Clan [[chained to yesterday was first worked on July 69 and they did Son of a Preacher Man)
Frank Wilson
Al Kent
Clay McMurray
Frank Wilson
Johnny Bristol
Jimmy Roach
Deke Richards
A&S [[on the duets)
Duke Browner [[on the duets)
Bobby Taylor
Hal Davis - this isn't confirmed but supposedly he might have been the producer working with them on I Want To Go Back There Again

[sup_fan]

i think the Corporation would have worked pretty well with the Sups. they had already been working with so many different producers and with great results. i'm not saying all of the cover tunes the girls were made to record were stunning, but their vocals are very strong, even if the material was a bit weak.

a song like Bless You, IMO, is more pop than MRATV. it's a bit too bubble gum and Martha is a belter and rocker. Jean might have been a happy medium between Martha and Diana's approached.

[REDHOT]

My bad. you're so right Reese, she recorded I'm A Winner produced by Ashford and Simpson.

[marybrewster]

Has anyone actually ever confirmed Martha's claims? Has anyone seen the master tapes with Diana's name on it? SDF is always so quick to dispute any story, I'm surprised this one hasn't gone through the ringer.

[reese]

Has anyone actually ever confirmed Martha's claims? Has anyone seen the master tapes with Diana's name on it? SDF is always so quick to dispute any story, I'm surprised this one hasn't gone through the ringer.

In his book on Motown, J. Randy wrote that BLACK MAGIC was a rejected Diana Ross concept. That said, he may have gotten that info during interviews with Martha. I don't think George or Andy have weighed in.