Mary Cindy and Debbie Sharpe do Everybody Gets to go to the Moon/Corner of the Sky

[Spreadinglove21]

[RanRan79]

I'll try not to dissect this one too much because we've basically done this in a few threads in a short period of time recently and now it would seem like overkill. I will say that this video presents two issues: Mary blurring the lines- and by blurring I mean obliterating- between Mary Wilson, soloist, and Mary Wilson, Supreme, as in still a Supreme, not ex Supreme like Diana and Florence. The fact that Cindy is with her and they're wearing Supremes outfits makes it even more glaringly obvious that this is all wrong. The ladies all sound great, and Mary in particular sounds in fine voice. So very talented, but the entire thing looks old fashioned. What about this performance would attract anyone looking to do something new and fresh with Mary Wilson? The answer is nothing. Wrong move. But I do understand she was trying...something. And the bills needed paying and the kids had to eat. So I'll jump back to the fact that Mary sounds great here and leave it at that.

[Spreadinglove21]

It's a gig and contractual obligation tour. No time to put together a new show showcasing Mary Wilson soloist so use the MSS show as bills have to be paid and contracts to fulfill. Debbie Sharpe was a good choice to be a Scherrie/Susaye type. Mary and Cindy show they are pros. But yeah, the show itself is old hat and Vegas, but professionally done.

[lakeside]

Wasn't this a one off?

[Ollie9]

Watching this performance, the first thing that springs to mind is no competing vocals. While performing more contemporary material, this is how MS&S should have presented themselves.
Mary sounds really good on “Moon” an early indication on the type of mor/jazz direction she should have been heading in.

[TheMotownManiac]

As previously mentioned, Mary sounds fantastic, as does Debbie Sharp. In fact, I prefer her singing to Scherrie. I think they sound phenomenal together. I agree about not picking at the act, we all know this is not a contemporary music act, and for clubs it was perfect. I also like the fact that they are a lot less frenetic in their staging. I don’t know why they would choose to do this on television if that’s where they’re doing this, but I think they do a very good job considering. It doesn’t take much of a stretch to see Mary as a solo performer here.
I still don’t get the way some of their medleys got put together with little snippets of songs here and there and then brought back again. I think it does a big disservice to the music and to the musicians. The glen Campbell medley was also a hot mess created out of two great songs - both of which lost their integrity. I find it hard to believe that Gil put these together, as he did the brilliant if they could see me now medley.

[sup_fan]

The whole S America tour is highly suspect IMO. The poor management and leadership of Pedro and Mary lead me to believe this was done in conflict w Motown and remaining group. They didn’t have the right to go and while I get it she needed the money it’s another very short sighted decision which had significant future impact

I’ve also heard that when she left the group she thought she’d be getting a solo deal. Nothin came from Motown on this and the fact she had been promoting her debut album being produced by Marvin Gaye without either his or the labels approval only further deteriorated the situation. Then supposedly she wanted to come back to the group since she had 0 solo prospects but S and S said only if no Pedro

[daviddh]

i would agree that they sound good, vocally
my first time hearing Debbie Sharpe and wow. sounds good. but this is why the Supremes were not the Supremes . just an old mess

[blackguy69]

In regards to the whole Mary rejoining. I take that with a grain of salt seeing that Susaye is the only one that mentions that. In all of the years this topic comes up no one has ever corroborates the story.

The whole S America tour is highly suspect IMO. The poor management and leadership of Pedro and Mary lead me to believe this was done in conflict w Motown and remaining group. They didn’t have the right to go and while I get it she needed the money it’s another very short sighted decision which had significant future impact

I’ve also heard that when she left the group she thought she’d be getting a solo deal. Nothin came from Motown on this and the fact she had been promoting her debut album being produced by Marvin Gaye without either his or the labels approval only further deteriorated the situation. Then supposedly she wanted to come back to the group since she had 0 solo prospects but S and S said only if no Pedro

[jim aka jtigre99]

That South American tour, whatever you may think of it, was put together quickly. Mary and Cindy were quite professional and Debbie Sharpe did an admirable job filling in so quickly. Mary always did have quite a knack for choosing talent from Lynda onwards to her solo career. This was just to fulfill some engagements and was not an actual launch of Mary as a soloist. They sound quite good and visually seemed quite good for such a short rehearsal time.

[rod_rick]

i would agree that they sound good, vocally
my first time hearing Debbie Sharpe and wow. sounds good. but this is why the Supremes were not the Supremes . just an old mess

From all the footage that I've seen from this show I have to say that Cindy Birdsong can blend with anyone. Debbie who is still a great vocalist hold it down very well with Mary & Cindy and I must say that Mary does a very good job as lead vocalist of this trio. I don't fault the outfits because as you can see Cindy had picked up weight and Mary was very much expecting during this tour. I'm just happy that footage of this grouping showed up. As for me I choose to look at all the positive aspect of the all the South American footage that has shown up. BTW I think this was one of the best version of Stoned Love with Mary on lead
https://youtu.be/yXrMmqA4aRI

[paul_nixon]

From all the footage that I've seen from this show I have to say that Cindy Birdsong can blend with anyone. Debbie who is still a great vocalist hold it down very well with Mary & Cindy and I must say that Mary does a very good job as lead vocalist of this trio. I don't fault the outfits because as you can see Cindy had picked up weight and Mary was very much expecting during this tour. I'm just happy that footage of this grouping showed up. As for me I choose to look at all the positive aspect of the all the South American footage that has shown up. BTW I think this was one of the best version of Stoned Love with Mary on lead
https://youtu.be/yXrMmqA4aRI

So can someone tell me a little bit more about Miss Sharp - who is she ? what did she go on to do ? is she still performing?

[BritishTony]

Oh my days, first time I’ve seen or heard this iteration of the group. [[The magic of this forum) And they’re GOOD! Lovely to see & hear Cindy getting some lines to sing alone and Debbie fits in so seamlessly and with impressive confidence after such a rushed induction. Her voice just so right on bg and occasional leads. I know Mary was keen to go solo but, you know, this lineup worked well. I’m one of Jean’s biggest fans but Mary in the linked video takes Stoned Love to a whole other place. Fully agree with Ollie9 this is the disciplined, mature, MOR-jazz direction that could have carried them forward with huge success. Many thanks Spreadinglove21.

[Ollie9]

Oh my days, first time I’ve seen or heard this iteration of the group. [[The magic of this forum) And they’re GOOD! Lovely to see & hear Cindy getting some lines to sing alone and Debbie fits in so seamlessly and with impressive confidence after such a rushed induction. Her voice just so right on bg and occasional leads. I know Mary was keen to go solo but, you know, this lineup worked well. I’m one of Jean’s biggest fans but Mary in the linked video takes Stoned Love to a whole other place. Fully agree with Ollie9 this is the disciplined, mature, MOR-jazz direction that could have carried them forward with huge success. Many thanks Spreadinglove21.

Quite so Tony. Its interesting to speculate just how well this lineup might have faired had this been an official new grouping and allowed to perform under the name Mary Wilson & The Supremes. They really are very good, both vocally and visually.

[daviddh]

is there some importance to this song?
just recently heard Flos do this also
dont care for it much,to caberet for me

[RanRan79]

You all are right. I had to pull Mary's book out to re-read the passage regarding this. She says that the gig, like all other gigs, was booked months in advance, and it should have been cancelled but it wasn't. She put this act together to fulfill the obligation because she was told she and Pedro would be sued. Whether she and Pedro was actually on the hook for this or she was given misinformation, I can't speak to. But I can understand the desire to avoid being sued either way.

Mary was fresh out of the group. Why bother booking a new set of Supremes immediately after if we all know her goal was to be a solo artist? And lets be real, is South America really the launching pad of any US artist's career? It would seem an idiotic place to choose to introduce the world to MARY WILSON, be it solo or with a group of Supremes.

I've never believed that Motown had any intention of allowing the Supremes to carry on without Mary. Once she left, that was it for the name. The fact that the ladies went on to duo rather than replace Mary seems like it was their intention from the get go. I don't think Motown, Mary or even Diana, wanted to see the group continue without an original member.

[sup_fan]

In regards to the whole Mary rejoining. I take that with a grain of salt seeing that Susaye is the only one that mentions that. In all of the years this topic comes up no one has ever corroborates the story.

the only detailed book or source we have on the whole 70s Supremes era is Sup Faith. and of course mary was going to select the material she wished to include or remembered to include. and it's definitely from her POV. she lists out how her relationship soured with really every women - jean and her had problems. by 73, lynda and mary weren't engaging well. problems with cindy, leading to her being fired in 76. Susaye's problematic behaviors and even Scherrie lashing out to mary and pedro.

there are quite a few fans that were around in the 70s with the women and have been with the FLOs and other since. according to their stories, there is significant content not in Sup Faith and all of the women have different POV's on the history and stories compared to what mary wrote.

neither S or S have opted to write their stories down. i'm sure they would be quite compelling stories to read. Mary talks about how Susaye would rebel and refuse to perform the rehearsed staging and vocals. yet in all of the booklet audios and videos of the MSS, all of them are doing that. that's one thing many of us fans have complained about - it was too much of a free for all. never once in these clips does Susaye just race out around the stage, catchin M and S off guard. they're all doing the same thing.

So was that a story/line the Mary included in the book based off of foggy memories or recollections that she and a few fans drew on? were fans remembering with her the sloppy stage act and how it really was a free for all? who knows. we only have that 1 source. and as we've seen, mary's books are a VERY specific telling of the story, with considerable accuracy and reliability issues

[sup_fan]

You all are right. I had to pull Mary's book out to re-read the passage regarding this. She says that the gig, like all other gigs, was booked months in advance, and it should have been cancelled but it wasn't. She put this act together to fulfill the obligation because she was told she and Pedro would be sued. Whether she and Pedro was actually on the hook for this or she was given misinformation, I can't speak to. But I can understand the desire to avoid being sued either way.

Mary was fresh out of the group. Why bother booking a new set of Supremes immediately after if we all know her goal was to be a solo artist? And lets be real, is South America really the launching pad of any US artist's career? It would seem an idiotic place to choose to introduce the world to MARY WILSON, be it solo or with a group of Supremes.

I've never believed that Motown had any intention of allowing the Supremes to carry on without Mary. Once she left, that was it for the name. The fact that the ladies went on to duo rather than replace Mary seems like it was their intention from the get go. I don't think Motown, Mary or even Diana, wanted to see the group continue without an original member.

my opinions on this situation are:

1. the word "months" can mean 2 [[since it's just the plural usage of the word month) or any number beyond that.
2. money - even when she was still in the group, the Sups were not making much money at all. there was essentially $0 from record sales. if MS&S even broke even, i'd be surprised. if it even covered the studio costs. yes they were touring but they still had shit tons of bills - musicians, staff, new gowns, airfare, etc.
3. Supremes Inc - it's my understanding that this was the legal entity handling the supremes' affair. if it was properly set up and was actually an Inc, mary and pedro couldn't have been sued. sure the company could have been but part of the point of incorporating a business is to protect the individual employees.
4. the name "The Supremes" - as mary clearly learned the hard way, she did not own the name. regardless of if it was stolen or motown was sneaky or whatever, she did not have the legal rights to the name.
5. booking management - if motown had booked this tour for the group and the group, for whatever reason, couldn't honor the booking, motown would have handled the matter. they would have either cancelled the booking or offered another artist
6. cancelling clauses - typically performance contracts have some sort of cancellation policy. it most likely would not be favorable for the performer, especially if the reason for the cancellation is due to the actions of or the fault of the performer.


mary and pedro were terrible at career management. let's cut mince words here - neither knew what the fuck they were doing. mary figured that since she had been a supreme for 10+ years, she would be able to teach and train Pedro. Pedro probably had way too much ego to figure he could fail. both were doing way too much coke to have a good, objective view of things.

the SA tour, IMO, was a last minute tour the Mary and/or pedro signed up for. they did it for the money. they figured S and S would probably just go along with it. when they refused, they thought they'd just drop in 2 other women and "borrow" the name The Supremes.

other than solving an immediate cash-flow situation, there was nothing wise about this. mary should have known better

[rod_rick]

So can someone tell me a little bit more about Miss Sharp - who is she ? what did she go on to do ? is she still performing?

Miss Debbie Sharp now go by the name of Deborah Sharp Taylor. She's a singer, actress, vocal coach and choir director who is still very active in the business. She told me the story of how she became a temporary Supreme. She audition for Stevie Wonder who informed her that Mary was looking for a 3rd singer to do the South American tour [[which I believe Motown set up and didn't mention in hopes to bury Mary). When she spoke with Mary, Mary asked her what voice sing and Debbie said alto which Mary replied "I sing that" then Debbie said I can sing 2nd soprano and told her that Cindy sang that so Debbie said hey I can sing 1st soprano [[Bingo). Debbie said they rehearsed at Mary's house got their blend together fitted for gowns and they were off to South America. She said she enjoyed that brief stint as a Supreme.
Debbie [[Deborah) is a really sweet lady and I've seen her perform a few times [[she's fantastic) and used her as a vocal coach which she is very good at also.
Another tid-bit is that she and Scherrie once belong to the same bible study class, so she does know Scherrie

[TheMotownManiac]

The whole S America tour is highly suspect IMO. The poor management and leadership of Pedro and Mary lead me to believe this was done in conflict w Motown and remaining group. They didn’t have the right to go and while I get it she needed the money it’s another very short sighted decision which had significant future impact

I’ve also heard that when she left the group she thought she’d be getting a solo deal. Nothin came from Motown on this and the fact she had been promoting her debut album being produced by Marvin Gaye without either his or the labels approval only further deteriorated the situation. Then supposedly she wanted to come back to the group since she had 0 solo prospects but S and S said only if no Pedro

I have never bought this story. Even when the book 1st came out, and I didn’t know there was a lot of misrepresentation of the facts call mom or just plain and truths, I didn’t believe this. Booking a tour and then reneging on the contracts would’ve been way too shady for eight major player like Motown to risk being. Lots of money goes out when tours are booked like this, there are deposits paid out front upon signing, local promoters invest their own money in advertising and what have you, It’s just preposterous. And to suggest that Motown would insist that they tour I still continue without using the Supremes name… well there aren’t even words to describe how absurd the story is. Mary has stated they need money badly and that she couldn’t get any gigs is a solo and if I were in Pedro’s shoes I would’ve done exactly the same thing and hope I didn’t get caught. But they got caught. And I find it unusual that Pedro did not go on the tour, as jealous as he was of Mary and as their manager, it just didn’t make sense for him not to be there. I think his decision to stay home has something to do with the shadiness of these deals, I’m not quite sure what it could be but it’s just what I suspect. However, it looks to me like it might’ve been quite a show. I hope there’s more footage somewhere.

I also do not believe, when little bit, that there were ever any plans for Marvin to produce an album on the Supremes or Mary. He was a hot mess that could barely get his own music done, could absolutely never work on anything like a deadline, it might’ve been nice though. I love all his duets and maybe he could’ve done a few with them, but an album and a tour? Spare me, please. I do believe that there’s a chance that, one night high out of his mind, something like that might’ve been tossed out. Anyway, it did spice up the narrative a little bit.

[blackguy69]

Hate to break it to ya, just because you don’t believe it doesn’t meant it didn’t happen

[Spreadinglove21]

Here's more from the show on Chilean TV. First 50 seconds is a commercial from more recent days.

[sup_fan]

Hate to break it to ya, just because you don’t believe it doesn’t meant it didn’t happen

but hate to break it to you - just because mary published it in a book, doesn't mean it happened either.

we know the tour happened. what we're talking about and questioning is the backing story to how the tour came about, mary's rationale for going, the subsequent impact on her relationship with motown.

as for the marvin story, the only sources are Mary's PR material. there's nothing at motown, nothing in any of the marvin bio's, etc.

[milven]

The link below offers an interesting explanation for this "Supreme" show.
The Drury Lane concert was supposed to be Mary Wilson's Farewell show with the group and she would then begin her solo career with Sherrie and Susaye going on as the Supremes. At this point, Sherrie and Susaye no longer wanted to be involved with Pedro, who was "managing" the group. Perhaps mismanaging is a better term. Bless Cindy. She was a good friend to Mary. Even after getting fired, she came back to help Mary and Pedro untangle this mess. And it turned out to be a pretty good show. Mary never did actually leave the Supremes. She continued to carry the name in her billing forever. The link below seems to give a full explanation. Form your own opinion.

https://thesupremes.fandom.com/wiki/...f_The_Supremes

[blackguy69]

It hasn’t been proven otherwise so that’s where we stand. I love hearing different opinions including mine but at the end of the day that’s all we’re doing, giving our opinions. Also take note that do you really think Mary was ready to do this tour seeing she was almost ready to give birth.

but hate to break it to you - just because mary published it in a book, doesn't mean it happened either.

we know the tour happened. what we're talking about and questioning is the backing story to how the tour came about, mary's rationale for going, the subsequent impact on her relationship with motown.

as for the marvin story, the only sources are Mary's PR material. there's nothing at motown, nothing in any of the marvin bio's, etc.

[sup_fan]

It hasn’t been proven otherwise so that’s where we stand. I love hearing different opinions including mine but at the end of the day that’s all we’re doing, giving our opinions. Also take note that do you really think Mary was ready to do this tour seeing she was almost ready to give birth.

correct - we're all speculating on what was going on behind the scenes. the description the mary provides in SF is suspect to me. just because she wrote it, doesn't mean it's true or that it happened that way. perhaps she's forgotten some points with the passing of time. perhaps she's opted to omit some components in order to make herself look better. who knows

but IMO the story doesn't seem to follow logic as to why/how it happened. and the trip also seems to be an inciting incident with the legal conflict mary found herself in by Sept/fall 77

[marybrewster]

The following was taken from The Supremes Fan Club Newsletter, Fall of 1977:

During a month many fans hoped they would see a bright new start for The Supremes, the group unfortunately has experienced one of its most confusing and disheartening periods. For the many fans who have inquired here are the facts as we know them: Mary, Scherrie, and Susaye successfully completed their tour of Europe and Great Britain in June, with a touching and well received farewell performance for Mary in London. The press covered her leaving The Supremes to start solo career, with emphasis on the terms of her new contract with Motown.

The ladies returned to Los Angeles for a period of rest before Mary was to start on her career, and The Supremes, with a new member to be selected by Motown, to start theirs. After their return however, Pedro informed Scherrie and Susaye that yet another engagement had been contracted for; a tour of Central and South America. Because they had made personal commitments for the period of the tour and because Mary had given her widely publicized farewell performance, Scherrie and Susaye declined.

Pedro and Mary then invited ex-Supreme Cindy Birdsong and one of the people who supposedly had auditioned for Mary's place in the group, Debbie Sharpe, to accompany them on the tour as The Supremes.

Meanwhile back in Los Angeles trade publications were reporting that Motown had a prime candidate for Mary's replacement, Karen Knox, who with Scherrie and Susaye, would form the new Supremes. There was also talk that Motown had made a commitment to manage and direct the group and re-establish their prominence in the fields of both recording and personal appearances.

As of this date the above is still true. One has to question the fact that Pedro srates that Mary has actually signed a new solo deal with Motown where in Mary's interviews she says she doesn't know whether or not she will stay with Motown. So the rumors still persist and the fans are quite anxious to see the group back together again soon, but all we can say it's really hard to say which 3 girls are going to be included in The Supremes. There have been times when we've been Supreme-less, and today we actually have a possible 6 supremes.

[RanRan79]

I have no reason to question Mary's version of this. While it isn't far fetched to me that with the money problems they were having, that Mary needed to do what she needed to do and quickly, this tour, and the possible complications, make no sense. If it was about getting gigs and quick money, Mary could have gone on the road in the United States. She didn't need to go to South America. While Mary wouldn't be booking venues Diana was playing in, she could have gotten good gigs on her name alone, as she would do in the years to come. And she wouldn't have jeopardized her pregnancy to do it. So in a short period of time she has to get backing vocalists and a whole band and fly them to and around South America supposedly because she needs the money? I'm not buying it, not when there was an easier way of getting the money by performing, and again, wouldn't be nearly as taxing on Mary in her delicate condition. By the end of the tour she and the baby were in danger.

If this was a money scheme, why not book a tour of Europe or England, where apparently the Supremes were still fairly popular, and probably there was more money to be made? It's not like the tour was a secret. Even the fan club knew about it. Motown was about business, but we've noted time and time again how nonsensical some of the label's business decisions could be. Mistakes also happen. Now truth be told we all should probably reserve judgment until someone produces the contracts with the venues on the tour. That would give us a better understanding of who booked and who should have cancelled, and if there was room for anyone else to be on the hook. Mary blames Motown. Undoubtedly Motown would probably blame Mary. In any case, unless there is evidence that Motown accused Mary of booking the tour after the fact, it seems an accusation for accusation's sake. If Mary had put together faux Supremes for a tour she booked after she "left" the group, why wouldn't Motown sue her? Wouldn't that be the business thing to do? Yet the suit that followed was Mary suing Motown over conflict of interests.

[sup_fan]

in Sup Faith, Mary mentions in later 76 the group's booking were moved to the William Morris Agency again. and that was how they got the Caesar's Palace gig. was WM still handling their bookings? no idea. was WM hired through Supremes Inc? by Motown? again, no idea.

[Spreadinglove21]

Despite the mess going on in the business end of things, the ladies managed to put together a decent performance here and no doubt at the other shows on the tour and that says something about their professionalism as entertainers to do so.

Since no one has flat out stated it, but is anyone speculating that Mary and Pedro were attempting to relaunch the Supremes with Mary at the helm with this tour and Scherrie and Susaye out as there were little to no interest in Mary as a solo act?

Until she did her Up Close show of jazz and ballads starting in the early to mid 00's, Mary Wilson never really attempted to do an act outside the confines of a Supremes related/derived act in terms of a live show.

[marybrewster]

That might be a thought, but I think it was too soon. Had this been 1980, I'd wonder. But Mary hadn't even launched her solo act yet; hadn't even signed a contract with Motown at this point. So unless she got cold feet, I'd say no.

How was this tour billed?

[RanRan79]

I think the tour in question was the start of the billing issue. I think in Mary's book she says that they were billed in places as the Supremes. I can't remember. After the tour she was going with Mary Wilson of the Supremes, which sent Motown through the roof because even though she owned 50 percent of the name, she had zero rights to use it, which is utterly ridiculous.

[milven]

...How was this tour billed?

Mary Wilson of The Supremes. In the link to my post above, the article says:


Mary received word that Motown did not approve of her taking out another group of "Supremes," even though they were not billed as "The Supremes." Prior to the tour, her husband and manager, Pedro Ferrer had warned all promoters and television executives not to announce the trio as "The Supremes" but as "Mary Wilson of The Supremes." However, despite the company's displeasure and the fact that it owned the rights/distribution rights to the name "Supremes," Motown never cancelled the tour.

https://thesupremes.fandom.com/wiki/...f_The_Supremes

[sup_fan]

I'll try not to dissect this one too much because we've basically done this in a few threads in a short period of time recently and now it would seem like overkill. I will say that this video presents two issues: Mary blurring the lines- and by blurring I mean obliterating- between Mary Wilson, soloist, and Mary Wilson, Supreme, as in still a Supreme, not ex Supreme like Diana and Florence. The fact that Cindy is with her and they're wearing Supremes outfits makes it even more glaringly obvious that this is all wrong. The ladies all sound great, and Mary in particular sounds in fine voice. So very talented, but the entire thing looks old fashioned. What about this performance would attract anyone looking to do something new and fresh with Mary Wilson? The answer is nothing. Wrong move. But I do understand she was trying...something. And the bills needed paying and the kids had to eat. So I'll jump back to the fact that Mary sounds great here and leave it at that.

i think that's the same problem with the MSS shows. the set list just was blah. out of date. EGTGTTM is an old Jimmy Webb song from the 60s. Corner of the Sky was from about 5 or 6 years earlier from a Broadway show that [[ironically) closed on Broadway the same day Mary "closed" from the Sups. Pippin ended it's run on 6/12/77. it was a solid show but not a phenomenon. by 77 it was really no longer contemporary. Chorus Line arrived in 76. you'd had The Wiz, Raisin - both Tony award winning black musicals and Bubbling Brown Sugar [[nominated for a Tony). chicago came out the year before. And I'm not saying they had to incorporate Broadway in their act. Diana had included Chorus Line so that was sort of done. and frankly the Sups needed something new and different. the group had been singing Broadway songs forever and part of the problem in the later years is the group wasn't viewed as contemporary.

[benross]

Sup_fan, I must agree with you. Everybody Gets To Go To The Moon was done to death by Leslie Uggams and others in the late '60s, as the moon walk occurred in July '69, and it seemed, aside from the Light Of The Silvery Moon excerpt, contemporary at that time. When Mary used it in '79 as part of her solo act, however, I couldn't imagine what she was thinking. She wanted us to accept her as a fresh voice, but that material, along with her understandable reliance on Supremes' songs which sounded tired and nothing like Diana's interpretations, her yet-again renditions of Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You and her Barbra Streisand impressions on The Way We Were from '73 and How Lucky Can You Get from '75, which she had performed with the Supremes in the group's later years all seemed stale. You wanted to ask yourself what, if anything, has she learned in all these years. You wanted to be excited, but too often it seemed she was just going through the motions and there was nothing new to ignite a flame.

[blackguy69]

At this point, economics were in play. It didn’t cost her anything for the music charts. So she used what she had

Sup_fan, I must agree with you. Everybody Gets To Go To The Moon was done to death by Leslie Uggams and others in the late '60s, as the moon walk occurred in July '69, and it seemed, aside from the Light Of The Silvery Moon excerpt, contemporary at that time. When Mary used it in '79 as part of her solo act, however, I couldn't imagine what she was thinking. She wanted us to accept her as a fresh voice, but that material, along with her understandable reliance on Supremes' songs which sounded tired and nothing like Diana's interpretations, her yet-again renditions of Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You and her Barbra Streisand impressions on The Way We Were from '73 and How Lucky Can You Get from '75, which she had performed with the Supremes in the group's later years all seemed stale. You wanted to ask yourself what, if anything, has she learned in all these years. You wanted to be excited, but too often it seemed she was just going through the motions and there was nothing new to ignite a flame.

[PeaceNHarmony]

i would agree that they sound good, vocally
my first time hearing Debbie Sharpe and wow. sounds good. but this is why the Supremes were not the Supremes . just an old mess

Debbie Sharpe?!? That's a new one to me. I'm proud to remain a purist; apres Jean Terrell, the group name should have been officially changed to The Who?-premes.

[sup_fan]

i don't know if it was just this period in her professional career/life but it seems in the mid to late 70s mary just didn't have a strong vision for how the group should be presented live. the song selection was out of date and not extremely compelling, the choice to bring in Geoffrey Holder from Broadway to revamp the show resulted in a show that seemed stuck in the past, the choreography, gowns, etc. Of course there's always trial in error - you might add a song to the act only to discover it just doesn't work. but it seems the duds far outweighed the successes during these years.

[sansradio]

Am I misremembering or didn’t Diana do a version of “…Moon” at her solo debut show at the Fontainebleau Hotel?

[Ollie9]

i don't know if it was just this period in her professional career/life but it seems in the mid to late 70s mary just didn't have a strong vision for how the group should be presented live. the song selection was out of date and not extremely compelling, the choice to bring in Geoffrey Holder from Broadway to revamp the show resulted in a show that seemed stuck in the past, the choreography, gowns, etc. Of course there's always trial in error - you might add a song to the act only to discover it just doesn't work. but it seems the duds far outweighed the successes during these years.

Its strange really, because the average fan could probably have put together a brilliant show for them. Choreographers be damned.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Am I misremembering or didn’t Diana do a version of “…Moon” at her solo debut show at the Fontainebleau Hotel?

I don't know about the Fontainbleau shows but this dreadful and dated number was definitely not included in Diana's show when it hit the Waldorf.

[marybrewster]

i don't know if it was just this period in her professional career/life but it seems in the mid to late 70s mary just didn't have a strong vision for how the group should be presented live. the song selection was out of date and not extremely compelling, the choice to bring in Geoffrey Holder from Broadway to revamp the show resulted in a show that seemed stuck in the past, the choreography, gowns, etc. Of course there's always trial in error - you might add a song to the act only to discover it just doesn't work. but it seems the duds far outweighed the successes during these years.

Begs to be asked: Should Mary alone been responsible for the vision of how the group be presented live? Until January 14th, 1970, all Mary had to do was walk on stage in her Butterfly gown and sing. Every song choice; every word of stage patter had been crafted and chosen for her. I don't see why Mary is constantly the issue with the decline of the Supremes.

[RanRan79]

Begs to be asked: Should Mary alone been responsible for the vision of how the group be presented live? Until January 14th, 1970, all Mary had to do was walk on stage in her Butterfly gown and sing. Every song choice; every word of stage patter had been crafted and chosen for her. I don't see why Mary is constantly the issue with the decline of the Supremes.

That's an interesting point. I can't say that I'm aware of much involvement of any of the Supremes, including Diana, in the continued direction of the Supremes. Not that they didn't contribute some ideas about doing a particular song or wearing a particular outfit and other decisions from the very beginning, but it seems like playing the Copa and other big time clubs, moving from the standard girl group look to sequins, the evolving sound of the music, moving into television, etc, this was all Berry and Motown's direction. The girls definitely put in the work, but they had a guiding influence. Once Diana was gone, or at least some point in the year or so afterwards, it appears that the influence [[i.e. Gordy) disappeared, which means the Supremes were on their own.

The issue to me is that nobody, and I do mean nobody, cared more about the Supremes than Mary at that point. And as the last of the originals left, it was now her baby and she should have seen it as her responsibility to lead the group in a proper direction because nobody else was going to do it. Unfortunately, this was new territory for Mary. Even as the Primettes, I've always suspected that the bigger personalities in Flo and Diana probably didn't allow Mary much room for decision making. So in the 70s she had to be intimidated by having to undertake this role and at such a crucial time. Whatever support she got from Motown was all but gone by the time Scherrie arrived, and then Pedro was in the picture, likely making most, if not all, of the decisions, and he wasn't qualified at all.

It's been said that Jean had some ideas but they were set aside in deference to Mary. This could be true. Also could be true that Jean's ideas weren't any better than Mary's. Guess we'll never know.

One look at the confusion that was Mary's solo career, at least during the 80s, and it's easy to conclude that it took her a very long time to figure out how to direct her career. Mary in 1970 certainly didn't have a clue.

[jim aka jtigre99]

When Motown got somewhat involved again with the group around 1972-3, they had the stage show go back to the DRATS era. Diana Ross was the only concern for Berry Gordy. He was managing the group in the 1960's and as Motown's head he controlled the staff that saw to the Supremes. Remember, he wanted You're Nobody Till Somebody Loves You in the show and Diana didn't want to do it but relented. So, yes they may have had ideas but they didn't helm the direction, it was Berry and Company. Berry left them in 1970 to concentrate on Diana Ross. It's true that Mary just mainly had to do her job as a Supreme until she was the last Original left standing and left standing alone. From interviews I read at the time she left the group, I think she was pushed by Pedro to leave the group. Mary stated he pushed her to leave and that unless she had a challenge she was lazy. I don't think that was the case considering how hard she worked all of her life. Diana said Mary wasn't the decision making type so it must have been a challenge for her to direct her career after she left the group. I think Mary was always focused on the group mentality more than anything else.

[Circa 1824]

I find the whole performance to be unlistenable and unwatchable. It is just horrible from start to finish. I also never heard of that third gal. Mary really did work hard to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, and that my friends was the problem.

[RanRan79]

Berry really only seemed to be so heavily involved in the Supremes. All the other Motown acts received either no attention, very little attention, or a lot of attention, but nowhere near the level of the Supremes. For the other acts they had good to great managers. The Supremes' seemed to level up even more when Shelly B began to manage them, who was also managing the Tempts. The Tempts were killing the game, and some of that may be attributed to Shelly. The Supremes were going over the moon because they had good management AND Berry Gordy. Without Berry, the Supremes ended up becoming just another Motown act. I don't know what was accomplished when Shelly returned to manage the Supremes. I'm not sure where that falls in the timeline and what was going on with the group. If Berry wasn't going to continue to oversee the Supremes after Diana's departure, the only chance they really had was if a team was assembled to keep them rolling along, similar to the Jackson 5, who was the only other act to get Berry's almost undivided attention after Diana left the Supremes.

[sup_fan]

Begs to be asked: Should Mary alone been responsible for the vision of how the group be presented live? Until January 14th, 1970, all Mary had to do was walk on stage in her Butterfly gown and sing. Every song choice; every word of stage patter had been crafted and chosen for her. I don't see why Mary is constantly the issue with the decline of the Supremes.

i'm pretty sure motown was still packaging up the shows for the girls in the early 70s. there is no way that Jean picked TCB and that crap and there's no way that if mary had decreed they were doing those tunes that Jean would have ever gone along

Gil was their conductor until he got pulled [[i believe in 71) to start work on the Lady soundtrack. He would have been the one developing much of the content for the show, in line with what motown's management wanted.

I don't know who was managing the act from fall 73 onwards. at a certain point, the heavy-handed control Motown had over the stage shows was disappearing. Diana was collaborating directly with the director designing the Evening With show, same with the Boss tour. we certainly know Rick James wasn't taking any tips from motown Artist Development dept lolol.

my theory is that once J and L left, motown figured the group was done and frankly probably didn't really care. the japan show for MSC is pretty consistent with their tried and true formula from when Jean was in the act. they'd swap out a few tunes but the show structure was the same.

Also it was Mary and Sup Inc that brought in Geoffrey Holder

[sup_fan]

When Motown got somewhat involved again with the group around 1972-3, they had the stage show go back to the DRATS era. Diana Ross was the only concern for Berry Gordy. He was managing the group in the 1960's and as Motown's head he controlled the staff that saw to the Supremes. Remember, he wanted You're Nobody Till Somebody Loves You in the show and Diana didn't want to do it but relented. So, yes they may have had ideas but they didn't helm the direction, it was Berry and Company. Berry left them in 1970 to concentrate on Diana Ross. It's true that Mary just mainly had to do her job as a Supreme until she was the last Original left standing and left standing alone. From interviews I read at the time she left the group, I think she was pushed by Pedro to leave the group. Mary stated he pushed her to leave and that unless she had a challenge she was lazy. I don't think that was the case considering how hard she worked all of her life. Diana said Mary wasn't the decision making type so it must have been a challenge for her to direct her career after she left the group. I think Mary was always focused on the group mentality more than anything else.

the group was definitely always inline with singing MOR and standards and show tunes. they had included People, Anyone with a heart, I Am Women from their early years. well before Artist Development was around. they enjoyed these more complex tunes and the harmony work they required.

that's heavily why Gordy connected so strongly at first with DR and the overall group. he knew that to eventually get an act to a club like the Copa, you'd have to have an act or artist that could effectively pull off a range of tunes and material. artists like Frank Sinatra, Bobby Darrin and others incorporated a lot of this type of material into their acts. so that was the standard they were going against.

Diana was certainly 100% aligned with the overall strategy. i think her concern with You're Nobody is that it was being used as the closing number or the encore. Like the Velvellettes used Nitty Gritty or the Miracles used Mickey's Monkey. something that really got the crowd dancing and on their feet. The first time or two with You're Nobody, it seems to not have worked as well. it wasn't a song associated with the group or a well-known contemporary pop/soul song. it was also a bit slow - listen to the Live in Paris version and it doesn't pop like it would later at the Copa.

As for Diana not having input in the show, i don't buy that at all. and frankly i think all the girls would have had some. For instance, i could see one of them suggesting Let There Be Love after maybe they saw another act in Vegas to it. Or maybe diana just adored the song Michelle. clearly if they requested that AD do a version of White Rabbit, they would have been told no. but Diana certainly was in line with the direction DRATS was going.

[Spreadinglove21]

Maybe after recording Witchi Tai To Mary asked that she perform that song in the show in place of Falling in Love with Love? That would have added an interesting touch to the DRATS Farewell show set list!