Mary - MIDNIGHT DANCER

[RanRan79]

i think there are two different scenarios to consider and we can use the Diana period for this.

within the framework of the original Supremes, except for maybe very very very early, Flo was never THE lead singer. Flo was never really the "shared" lead, shouldering half or so of the work. in 61 or so, Flo did some lead recordings but of the overall recordings, that was barely 1/3 of the total. by 62 it was all Diana leads, for the most part. with occasional for F and M. the earliest live recordings we have for the group also support this.

reason i'm dredging this back up is to show that during the DMF era, there were several years where it was most clearly Diana as the lead singer with occasional leads from M and F. there was a lot of 3-part harmony work though, and the overall presentation was still that of a group

where by 66 that group approach was declining. the recordings were becoming more of an assembly-line approach, just crank things out. even the glorious R&H set doesn't have quite the same 3-part harmonies or group approach as the earlier sets like Sam Cook or There's A Place. so it was clear that the group was evolving in a DR launch pad. and trouble brewed up

so if Flo came back for a possible MSF lineup or something, i don't immediately think Flo would have rebelled against the idea. if they approached the MSF line up like they did the MSS lineup, with 3 singers being spotlighted, i think it is possible flo would have been fine. i don't think she thought she HAD to be the primary or only lead singer. i don't think she would have begrudged mary being heavily featured. but i do think the bullshit that M and Pedro offered up with using the group as a launch pad for Mary's solo career would have been a problem. just like it was in the 60s

The Primettes were the setting that propelled Flo, Diana and Mary forward. They were certainly an equal group, sharing the leads fairly evenly. Once at Motown, Diana became the primary lead singer, as Gordy was especially interested in her voice. But beyond lead singing, the Supremes were an equal trio. I don't believe any one Supreme looked at any other Supreme and thought "she's the boss". They all had an equal say. Later on Diana had a lot of pull with Gordy, which gave her leg room that Flo and Mary didn't quite have. But still, there was a big difference in group parity between when Flo was a Supreme and when Cindy was a Supreme. Even Mary's voice fell deeper into the background as Diana's position was elevated.

After Diana left, Mary rightfully viewed the Supremes as her group. She makes a statement in her book where she compares the Supremes to working in a department store: the replacements understood that they were employees in the Supremes, not owners. Whatever respect Mary had for the replacements, from Cindy to Susaye, she was never going to view them as equal to herself, nor should she have. While Mary may not have enjoyed the pressure of the position, she likely enjoyed the perk of sitting in the top position as Queen Supreme.

My point was that had Flo come back, the issue might have been of rank. Yes, Flo was an original Supreme. She was responsible for bringing Mary in. But Flo had been gone for many years. Mary was running the ship. Would Flo want to be co-runner? If so, would Mary be okay with that? Or would Flo be fine as an "employee" to Mary? I'm not sure she would have been okay with that.

I know the default position is to focus on "lead singing", but that was never the big issue in the Supremes anyway. Both Flo and Mary are on record saying they didn't have a problem with Diana being the lead singer. Even when Flo suggested they add the Streisand songs to the act, she chose "People" for herself and "I Am Woman" for Diana. Equality goes beyond who's singing lead.

[RanRan79]

I don't really think Diana spoke poorly of Flo in her book. I remember her complimenting her a lot but, like Mary's book, she spoke of being very frustrated with Florence as well.

That's my point. I don't think Diana was taking digs at Flo but stating her POV of the problems. Interesting to note that, as far as I can remember, Diana did not take any responsibility for any part she might have played in the disintegration of the group. Flo just woke up one day pissed and never got over it, per Diana's book. To me Mary's second book reads much the same way. Mary writes about the problems she had with each of the Supremes. I don't think she hit any of the women below the belt or even accused any of them of anything particularly outrageous. [[Mind you, I'm referring to Mary's second book, not the first one.) But Mary did something Diana did not do in her book: Mary took responsibility for certain things. She wrote about things from her perspective and then sometimes she'd add things in hindsight, of what the other ladies might have been thinking or feeling, putting herself in their shoes. My hope was that Diana's second autobiography would have more of this, attempting to understand. I guess we'll never know unless the book gets leaked.

[floyjoy678]

That's my point. I don't think Diana was taking digs at Flo but stating her POV of the problems. Interesting to note that, as far as I can remember, Diana did not take any responsibility for any part she might have played in the disintegration of the group. Flo just woke up one day pissed and never got over it, per Diana's book. To me Mary's second book reads much the same way. Mary writes about the problems she had with each of the Supremes. I don't think she hit any of the women below the belt or even accused any of them of anything particularly outrageous. [[Mind you, I'm referring to Mary's second book, not the first one.) But Mary did something Diana did not do in her book: Mary took responsibility for certain things. She wrote about things from her perspective and then sometimes she'd add things in hindsight, of what the other ladies might have been thinking or feeling, putting herself in their shoes. My hope was that Diana's second autobiography would have more of this, attempting to understand. I guess we'll never know unless the book gets leaked.

You are right about that. I do clearly remember her writing "I am not responsible" which is a bit cringe worthy. I love all three original Supremes but none of them were innocent in the break up of the group.

[sup_fan]

The Primettes were the setting that propelled Flo, Diana and Mary forward. They were certainly an equal group, sharing the leads fairly evenly. Once at Motown, Diana became the primary lead singer, as Gordy was especially interested in her voice. But beyond lead singing, the Supremes were an equal trio. I don't believe any one Supreme looked at any other Supreme and thought "she's the boss". They all had an equal say. Later on Diana had a lot of pull with Gordy, which gave her leg room that Flo and Mary didn't quite have. But still, there was a big difference in group parity between when Flo was a Supreme and when Cindy was a Supreme. Even Mary's voice fell deeper into the background as Diana's position was elevated.

After Diana left, Mary rightfully viewed the Supremes as her group. She makes a statement in her book where she compares the Supremes to working in a department store: the replacements understood that they were employees in the Supremes, not owners. Whatever respect Mary had for the replacements, from Cindy to Susaye, she was never going to view them as equal to herself, nor should she have. While Mary may not have enjoyed the pressure of the position, she likely enjoyed the perk of sitting in the top position as Queen Supreme.

My point was that had Flo come back, the issue might have been of rank. Yes, Flo was an original Supreme. She was responsible for bringing Mary in. But Flo had been gone for many years. Mary was running the ship. Would Flo want to be co-runner? If so, would Mary be okay with that? Or would Flo be fine as an "employee" to Mary? I'm not sure she would have been okay with that.

I know the default position is to focus on "lead singing", but that was never the big issue in the Supremes anyway. Both Flo and Mary are on record saying they didn't have a problem with Diana being the lead singer. Even when Flo suggested they add the Streisand songs to the act, she chose "People" for herself and "I Am Woman" for Diana. Equality goes beyond who's singing lead.

for Mary to have claimed "ownership" of the Supremes as a group in the 70s, she would have had to be able to support that claim with something other than duration of membership. jean did nearly all of the leads in the studio and for a while also was joining in the background work. she was then doing all of the leads in the show and on tv. for her to not only make less money but be told "you just sit down as I'm the leader of this group" is asinine. especially when M and C were barely on half of the recordings and then just singing ooooh and ahhhhh. in addition, mary wasn't even bothering to stretch herself on stage by adding different songs. she just kept singing the damn Can't Take My Eyes

so mary might have been the "original" member but it's ridiculous to just say she ran the show just because she said she did. and i think this is much of the core of the problem with Jean and Mary. no knocks to mary but jean's voice is simply better. so you have a stronger singer that is doing all of the work and yet has limited say in the group's decisions

also the Dept Store comment was in regards to S and S going to motown to complain about the poor management of Pedro and mary. mary might have "selected" those women but they were officially signed to Motown. mary did not have the authorization to hire members of a group that is contractually owned by motown. that's what she did POST supremes with the Karens/Kaarens and others. but S and S were employed by motown. so if they had a problem with the group's manager, they had every right to raise those concerns to motown.

[reese]

i wonder if the sting of Grapevine lingered through the majority of the motown tenure. I read in one of the books that a reviewer incorrectly called out that the group did a cover of Gaye's Grapevine. i'm sure that stung.

interesting to know they coproduced some of their Buddha material. yeah that would never have happened at Motown. so it seems like a good move from a creative perspective too

In her book, Gladys wrote that she wished Motown had allowed them more time to bask in the success of their GRAPEVINE before releasing Marvin's version, but it was just over a year. She also wrote that she felt releasing his stripped away some of their identity, even though they didn't begrudge him the hit, as they really liked him.

Re co-producing, Gladys said that the group did that often but Buddah was where they were first credited for it.

[sup_fan]

That's my point. I don't think Diana was taking digs at Flo but stating her POV of the problems. Interesting to note that, as far as I can remember, Diana did not take any responsibility for any part she might have played in the disintegration of the group. Flo just woke up one day pissed and never got over it, per Diana's book. To me Mary's second book reads much the same way. Mary writes about the problems she had with each of the Supremes. I don't think she hit any of the women below the belt or even accused any of them of anything particularly outrageous. [[Mind you, I'm referring to Mary's second book, not the first one.) But Mary did something Diana did not do in her book: Mary took responsibility for certain things. She wrote about things from her perspective and then sometimes she'd add things in hindsight, of what the other ladies might have been thinking or feeling, putting herself in their shoes. My hope was that Diana's second autobiography would have more of this, attempting to understand. I guess we'll never know unless the book gets leaked.

when Mary wrote Dreamgirl, there was no guarantee that she would write Sup Faith. in Dreamgirl, mary definitely paints the picture that D and B were pretty much planning their futures at the expense of M and F. for instance, she includes the People at the Copa shenanigans which don't appear to be true. there are also a variety of little stories highlighting the pettiness of some of diana's actions. she also gives limited at best acknowledgement that Diana was also trying to help with the Flo situation as best she could until the problem just got too out of hand.

all of this and it's only 5 or so years after Diana leant Mary that money for her house, which was of course omitted. while she did mention it in Sup Faith, as i said when DG was published there was no reason to assume Book #2 would be coming. so this is a glaring and awful omission. the Epilogue certainly contains ample content from post 1/15/70 so there was an opportunity to include.

[RanRan79]

You are right about that. I do clearly remember her writing "I am not responsible" which is a bit cringe worthy. I love all three original Supremes but none of them were innocent in the break up of the group.

Did she say that? Yikes! Certainly Diana wasn't responsible for Florence's overall issues and her decline. But one of the things that has always annoyed me about Diana is that she'll talk about things that happened [[well she used to) but there's never any acknowledgement of her part. I don't know if it was her book or an interview, but Diana wondered if they were jealous because of the attention she received as lead singer. She didn't wonder if her nasty attitude or petty girl behavior created bad feelings. No, it was "are you jealous". Lady come on.

[RanRan79]

for Mary to have claimed "ownership" of the Supremes as a group in the 70s, she would have had to be able to support that claim with something other than duration of membership. jean did nearly all of the leads in the studio and for a while also was joining in the background work. she was then doing all of the leads in the show and on tv. for her to not only make less money but be told "you just sit down as I'm the leader of this group" is asinine. especially when M and C were barely on half of the recordings and then just singing ooooh and ahhhhh. in addition, mary wasn't even bothering to stretch herself on stage by adding different songs. she just kept singing the damn Can't Take My Eyes

so mary might have been the "original" member but it's ridiculous to just say she ran the show just because she said she did. and i think this is much of the core of the problem with Jean and Mary. no knocks to mary but jean's voice is simply better. so you have a stronger singer that is doing all of the work and yet has limited say in the group's decisions

also the Dept Store comment was in regards to S and S going to motown to complain about the poor management of Pedro and mary. mary might have "selected" those women but they were officially signed to Motown. mary did not have the authorization to hire members of a group that is contractually owned by motown. that's what she did POST supremes with the Karens/Kaarens and others. but S and S were employed by motown. so if they had a problem with the group's manager, they had every right to raise those concerns to motown.

Mary didn't have to do any of that. She was a founding member of the group and as the last woman standing, it was her group. Which Temptation members of the 70s and 80s do you think had the right to consider himself equal to Otis and Melvin? Not a one, no matter how many leads any one Temptation sang over Otis and Melvin. Mary didn't suggest that she owned the group in the way Motown owned the group, although she certainly had a case for it. But the ego of any woman to become a Supreme and think she outranked Mary is the real asinine thought process.

We all love the replacements, from Cindy to Susaye, and respect their contributions to the group [[well most of us, I figure). But there isn't one of them who was more invested in the Supremes than Mary. At the end of the day, for all of what Jean brought to the group and did for the group, she was able to walk away and not look back. Sup you might be the only person on the planet who doesn't think the Supremes belong to Mary Wilson. LOL

In Mary's book she wasn't suggesting that Scherrie and Susaye were signed to her and not to Motown. She was making the analogy between the Supremes and the store. Mary saw herself as the Supremes, and as such Scherrie and Susaye were under her charge. I don't think that was unreasonable, considering just about every group in the world with replacement members and original members operated this way. Why would Mary's group be any different?

[RanRan79]

when Mary wrote Dreamgirl, there was no guarantee that she would write Sup Faith. in Dreamgirl, mary definitely paints the picture that D and B were pretty much planning their futures at the expense of M and F. for instance, she includes the People at the Copa shenanigans which don't appear to be true. there are also a variety of little stories highlighting the pettiness of some of diana's actions. she also gives limited at best acknowledgement that Diana was also trying to help with the Flo situation as best she could until the problem just got too out of hand.

all of this and it's only 5 or so years after Diana leant Mary that money for her house, which was of course omitted. while she did mention it in Sup Faith, as i said when DG was published there was no reason to assume Book #2 would be coming. so this is a glaring and awful omission. the Epilogue certainly contains ample content from post 1/15/70 so there was an opportunity to include.

Sup I'm not following how this pertains to my comment. Help a brotha out.

I made a point of focusing on the second book because the first book does include some petty recollections which certainly amount to "digs" IMO. The second book is made up of more of Mary's singing partners than the first. The issue still remains that Mary said what she said about all the ladies, but she also took responsibility for her part and tried to add the possible perspective of the Supreme in question and I respect that. Diana has never done that, and I don't respect that.

[reese]

Did she say that? Yikes! Certainly Diana wasn't responsible for Florence's overall issues and her decline. But one of the things that has always annoyed me about Diana is that she'll talk about things that happened [[well she used to) but there's never any acknowledgement of her part. I don't know if it was her book or an interview, but Diana wondered if they were jealous because of the attention she received as lead singer. She didn't wonder if her nasty attitude or petty girl behavior created bad feelings. No, it was "are you jealous". Lady come on.

The full sentence that Diana wrote is "I am quite clear. I am not responsible for anyone else's successes or failures." She wrote this at the tail end of a section where she mentioned how Berry created an unhealthy internal climate at Motown by comparing other artists to her and how it made some of them turn on her. She wasn't speaking about Mary or Flo.

[marybrewster]

there's a limited amount of material we can pull from but there does appear to be a difference in the approach to the show between the MSC and MSS lineups. clearly they decided that with MSS there were 3 lead singers to highlight, if by no other evidence then they added solos from the very beginning for Susaye. other than the Dream sequence, Cindy didn't really have any full solos that i know of. maybe a line here or there, plus being Marilyn Monroe.

i have 4 or 5 shows of the MSS lineup on bootleg cassettes, plus the various tv shows that most of us have seen on youtube. based on these, i'm not hearing or seeing anything drastically different or disruptive. in the studios, starting with Walking, they began adding Susaye's vocals as ad libs and color to songs. they did this on Wheel, Let yourself go, the ending of Sweet Dream Machine. they're even on Don't Wanna Be Tied down, but for some reason on this track they're very buried in the mix. so they clearly were going for a different sound that encouraged the singers to be creative with their vocals

the live show seems to be an attempt to continue this. although you can argue about how successful that was. there are obviously all of the ad libs and things they do in the live version of LYG, often in the slow My World Is Empty as Scherrie is wrapping it up you'll hear Susaye do light echoes and ad libs.

But in none of the things i've heard have i ever heard Susaye attempting to take over lead [[like ironically Mary did on Someday at the motown 25). And susaye isn't the only one doing these ad libs and theatrics. mary is doing them too. during Susaye's leads, Scherrie is also chiming in.

And in the handful of videos, there doesn't appear to be any points where Susaye is not following the general choreography. if you look at some of the LYG live clips, IMO Mary is the one with the sloppier execution of the choreography. of course i myself do actually know the full routine lolol having danced it in the house many many times lol. the full routine from the HE videos is quite complex but if done with precision, it would have been very impressive. they took parts of this for the live show, and frankly none of them were really very polished with it. especially mary. which is odd since in the 60s she was flawless with the group moves.

in the end, unless a fan has specific content they can share, we don't know really what happened and can only guess. to accuse a performer of this though is pretty serious, not to us maybe but definitely to a trained and respected performer. it's really a low blow to their professional dignity. mary says she did but susaye says she did not. given how mary really did use both books to make digs at all of the other women in the group and given how fans have shared through the years that all of these women have VERY different view points of both the group events and of mary, i'm more inclined to believe Susaye.

Is there anything you like about Mary Wilson?

[sup_fan]

Is there anything you like about Mary Wilson?

lol yes. there is a lot i like about mary. and a lot i don't like about Diana. and i certainly recognize mary's overall contribution and importance to the group. I see our delving into this minutia as a fun and exciting banter among us mega fans. among us, i'm wanting to really drill down, not be afraid to identify problems and faults because we all know there's a overriding love for the group.

now if talking to an outsider, someone with maybe passing knowledge of the group, i wouldn't share these very specific opinions or ideas because i don't want to lower the overall impression of the group and their impact and legacy. there are enough outside forces doing that as it is. but here among friends, i want us to explore every little tiny topic and examine it. that's how i've been able to learn so many intriguing and fascinating things. sometimes i've even learned something in contradiction to my initial thought.

in the end, i claim no personal friendship or knowledge with these women. i try to focus mostly on them in regards to how they interacted with the group. issues or problems they might have had on their own, so long as it wasn't impacting group issues, i tend to leave alone. i don't consider them friends. i'm a fan of their work.

[Ollie9]

lol yes. there is a lot i like about mary. and a lot i don't like about Diana.

You do realise your place in heaven has now been handed to someone else. It’s never to late to repent.

[RanRan79]

The full sentence that Diana wrote is "I am quite clear. I am not responsible for anyone else's successes or failures." She wrote this at the tail end of a section where she mentioned how Berry created an unhealthy internal climate at Motown by comparing other artists to her and how it made some of them turn on her. She wasn't speaking about Mary or Flo.

Berry was messy. No one ever puts it that way, but I feel it's time someone finally said it: Berry was messy.

Thanks for the clarification Reese, but even in that it seems she put it all on Berry and doesn't factor in her own actions and attitude, going back before she ever even had a hit. I suspect Diana is one of those people who whenever a problem arises between her and someone else, it's always that someone else's fault. And I should clarify that I'm referring to Diana back in the day, not today, as I would hope she's not the same person in that regard.

[lucky2012]

Berry was messy. No one ever puts it that way, but I feel it's time someone finally said it: Berry was messy.

Thanks for the clarification Reese, but even in that it seems she put it all on Berry and doesn't factor in her own actions and attitude, going back before she ever even had a hit. I suspect Diana is one of those people who whenever a problem arises between her and someone else, it's always that someone else's fault. And I should clarify that I'm referring to Diana back in the day, not today, as I would hope she's not the same person in that regard.

Good points, Ranran. Thank you, Reese.

[reese]

Berry was messy. No one ever puts it that way, but I feel it's time someone finally said it: Berry was messy.

Thanks for the clarification Reese, but even in that it seems she put it all on Berry and doesn't factor in her own actions and attitude, going back before she ever even had a hit. I suspect Diana is one of those people who whenever a problem arises between her and someone else, it's always that someone else's fault. And I should clarify that I'm referring to Diana back in the day, not today, as I would hope she's not the same person in that regard.

I think the book that she ultimately decided not to go forward with might have leaned more into self-reflection.

[Ollie9]

Berry was messy. No one ever puts it that way, but I feel it's time someone finally said it: Berry was messy.

Thanks for the clarification Reese, but even in that it seems she put it all on Berry and doesn't factor in her own actions and attitude, going back before she ever even had a hit. I suspect Diana is one of those people who whenever a problem arises between her and someone else, it's always that someone else's fault. And I should clarify that I'm referring to Diana back in the day, not today, as I would hope she's not the same person in that regard.

Back in the day Diana was the complete narcissist. She would never consider how others might be feeling because she considered everything about her. I personally believe this was more to do with insecurity then being full of herself. As you mention, she is a much different person now.
With the spotlight on her once again, it would be rather intriguing if she did write or amend her last unreleased book. It would be interesting to see if the wisdom of time has altered her perspective of relations with others.

[Boogiedown]

Is there anything you like about Mary Wilson?

i like that she waved the Supremes banner to the very end.
Motown lost out greatly by not handing her a mega hit in her own right. She promoted the brand tirelessly regardless but imagine if she had a LOVE HANGOVER or two .

Sup your inputs are always [?] fair and balanced without animosity. You need to work on that

[jim aka jtigre99]

Berry really did have a one track mind as far as Diana was concerned. Yes, she was extremely talented and worked very hard to achieve superstardom but having Berry behind her so very, very hard helped quite a bit , as well. Yes, Miss Ross was not responsible for anyone else's success or failures but she did have the extra inside with Berry. Florence and Mary could probably have asked for a song until they were blue in the face and he would not have relented. We have all said he lacked the vision to promote the two of them, as well. Had he done so, it would have not diminished Diana and would have helped keep the longevity of the group alive if they also were allowed to shine. They certainly had the talent but going to other record companies, they would expect the same Supremes sound from them which could you imagine a group with three vocalists all sounding the same ala the Bee Gees at that time? Even Diana stated Mary was a very hard worker and she was there at her New York solo debut. Motown just didn't have a clue what to do with her, to be honest. By the 1980's, other labels wouldn't know if she could sing or what she was capable of. I also think Diana was quite insecure as was Mary, Mary even said in interviews that they were three little insecure girls. IMHO, I think Gordy saw all three's insecurities and used them to his own advantage. He founded a great record company with the best music but that truly was a horrible fault of his. Had Motown released Mary's second LP with those unreleased tracks, I see it could have had success at that time.

[sup_fan]

Back in the day Diana was the complete narcissist. She would never consider how others might be feeling because she considered everything about her. I personally believe this was more to do with insecurity then being full of herself. As you mention, she is a much different person now.
With the spotlight on her once again, it would be rather intriguing if she did write or amend her last unreleased book. It would be interesting to see if the wisdom of time has altered her perspective of relations with others.

i don't know that i agree that diana was a total narcissist. i think that's part of the perception problem that books like Dreamgirl fed into. now i'm certainly not going to claim that DR was all sunshine and puppy dogs lol. of course not. she was a very very highly driven youngster with a very determined approach to her career. but my point in my earlier posts was that there are plenty of stories from the likes of Gil, Harvey, Mickey and others that show that Diana really did care about M and F, she did want the best for them and wanted them to succeed. but she also wasn't going to sabotage her own success and career simply to carry Flo [[or anyone else) along. at a certain point she had to move forward with what was best professionally.

so no one would ever say Diana was perfect. far from it. but she also was just a total witch forcing everyone out of her way. And Mary was far from perfect. she wasn't just the happy smiling innocent. all of the girls were human

[sup_fan]

Berry really did have a one track mind as far as Diana was concerned. Yes, she was extremely talented and worked very hard to achieve superstardom but having Berry behind her so very, very hard helped quite a bit , as well. Yes, Miss Ross was not responsible for anyone else's success or failures but she did have the extra inside with Berry. Florence and Mary could probably have asked for a song until they were blue in the face and he would not have relented. We have all said he lacked the vision to promote the two of them, as well. Had he done so, it would have not diminished Diana and would have helped keep the longevity of the group alive if they also were allowed to shine. They certainly had the talent but going to other record companies, they would expect the same Supremes sound from them which could you imagine a group with three vocalists all sounding the same ala the Bee Gees at that time? Even Diana stated Mary was a very hard worker and she was there at her New York solo debut. Motown just didn't have a clue what to do with her, to be honest. By the 1980's, other labels wouldn't know if she could sing or what she was capable of. I also think Diana was quite insecure as was Mary, Mary even said in interviews that they were three little insecure girls. IMHO, I think Gordy saw all three's insecurities and used them to his own advantage. He founded a great record company with the best music but that truly was a horrible fault of his. Had Motown released Mary's second LP with those unreleased tracks, I see it could have had success at that time.

agree. berry's tunnel vision for diana really was to the extreme. like the TCB show - having Cindy do her 1 line of Mrs Robinson would certainly not have taken any "shine" from Diana's star. including the extremely brief Mas Que Nada and trimming 30 seconds of the vamp at the end of Respect would certainly have not negatively impacted things. in all honesty, it would have helped. the rise of Diana's star wouldn't have been perceived as so blatant to the public, you could have satisfied some of the artistic and professional desires of M and C and have reduced the wildly negative atmosphere around the group.

as for mary long-term with motown, i don't know why motown was simply adamant about having 0 interest in her as a singer. Mary Wells was a far more limited singer and entertainer and they were willing to invest in her. sure during the 70s mary started getting more vocal about problems with the label and that might have burned a bridge or two. but it seems this decision to do nothing with mary had started well before the 70s problems began. maybe there was some other behind the scenes problems we just don't know about.

[Boogiedown]

Back in the day Diana was the complete narcissist. She would never consider how others might be feeling because she considered everything about her. I personally believe this was more to do with insecurity then being full of herself. As you mention, she is a much different person now.
With the spotlight on her once again, it would be rather intriguing if she did write or amend her last unreleased book. It would be interesting to see if the wisdom of time has altered her perspective of relations with others.

Don't count on it. Back to touring since ....

, and yet nary a mention of Mary Wilson included.

[Ollie9]

i don't know that i agree that diana was a total narcissist. i think that's part of the perception problem that books like Dreamgirl fed into. now i'm certainly not going to claim that DR was all sunshine and puppy dogs lol. of course not. she was a very very highly driven youngster with a very determined approach to her career. but my point in my earlier posts was that there are plenty of stories from the likes of Gil, Harvey, Mickey and others that show that Diana really did care about M and F, she did want the best for them and wanted them to succeed. but she also wasn't going to sabotage her own success and career simply to carry Flo [[or anyone else) along. at a certain point she had to move forward with what was best professionally.

so no one would ever say Diana was perfect. far from it. but she also was just a total witch forcing everyone out of her way. And Mary was far from perfect. she wasn't just the happy smiling innocent. all of the girls were human

The point being raised sup was Diana’s inability to recognise how her own actions might have impacted on others peoples feelings. The mark of a narcissist is just this, as well as having an inflated idea of your own importance. In fairness to Mary, this perception of Diana started long before Dreamgirl.
A new book would hopefully reveal a greater understanding of how ones actions might effect another, while perhaps silencing those who still perceive her as that total witch.

[sup_fan]

The point being raised sup was Diana’s inability to recognise how her own actions might have impacted on others peoples feelings. The mark of a narcissist is just this, as well as having an inflated idea of your own importance. In fairness to Mary, this perception of Diana started long before Dreamgirl.
A new book would hopefully reveal a greater understanding of how ones actions might effect another, while perhaps silencing those who still perceive her as that total witch.

gotcha - i don't disagree with that. but i've tried to make the same claim about mary and her POV in Dreamgirl. i guess the point is that typically the write of the autobiography isn't going to be the most objective source or POV.

[Boogiedown]

It’s curious considering ABCs poor handling of Flo that The Four Tops went with that label.

[reese]

It’s curious considering ABCs poor handling of Flo that The Four Tops went with that label.

Maybe not. ABC had done well by the Impressions, B.B. King, and Ray Charles.

[RanRan79]

Maybe not. ABC had done well by the Impressions, B.B. King, and Ray Charles.

Yeah, Flo was one singer out of how many? No record label gets it right with every singer. Look at Motown.

[Boogiedown]

Does “getting it right” with a singer mean, “ we’ll let you cut two singles and if you don’t hit


you’re outta here!”

[Boogiedown]

So now I’m picturing The Four Tops in the ABC offices saying they had concerns over the puny way the label treated their Motown comrade Florence Ballard.
They answer , “Yes but the difference is Florence Ballard was just awful. You guys on the other hand are terrific.”

”Oh OK, that’s right. Where do we sign ?”

[sup_fan]

with the Tops, you're also signing a group with 1) a wildly talented lead singer. levi voice is just incredible 2) that lead singer has had tons of time to experiment and learn his craft in the studio 3) quality productions for that lead singer to excel at

if i had to rate Flo vs Levi, it's no contest. Levi is a much better artist and singer. but i will at least acknowledge that flo was hardly given a fare shake with her solo album

[Roberta75]

How Berry Gordy got away with only a drink thrown in his face is a miracle. Pedro's shenanigans? Good grief. Florence would have probably gotten arrested for what she would have done to him.

Or, worst case scenario, Flo insists Tommy be co-manager, and now he and Pedro team up. I have a feeling the Supremes would have contained more horror stories than the original trio ended up with!

But lets be real honest hear Tommy Chapman was also a POS. Maybe not as much of a one as the chronic woman beating Pedro Ferrer but Tommy also stuck Flo and used her. A man who beats a woman isnt a man IMO.

[Boogiedown]

Sup fan:

with the Tops, you're also signing a group with 1) a wildly talented lead singer. levi voice is just incredible 2) that lead singer has had tons of time to experiment and learn his craft in the studio 3) quality productions for that lead singer to excel at

if i had to rate Flo vs Levi, it's no contest. Levi is a much better artist and singer. but i will at least acknowledge that flo was hardly given a fare shake with her solo album

didn't you just in a much more diplomatic way, reword what I just said ??

Turns out the Four Tops were a catch for ABC.
I'm just curious how that's who they chose to hook up with....how much label shopping did they do? What were the offers to them ...

I'm having a hard time visualizing them saying, "I know, let's reach out [pun] to that label Florence went to ..."