Mary - MIDNIGHT DANCER

[RanRan79]

Failed singles I think is objective. Did ABC do much to promote them? Did Gordy have his hand in getting them "blacklisted"? Did the ridiculousness of not being to mention she was a Supreme play into the demise? Again, her singles weren't masterpieces, but should have made SOME sort of splash. Enough to get a full LP out.

"Some sort of splash" is subjective also, though. "It Doesn't Matter" isn't really a bad record, but listening to it and then comparing what else was out at the time, IMO it was fighting a losing battle from the start. "Love Aint Love" is actually very good, but by then Flo was waaaayyyy into her pregnancy and I have to imagine this hampered her ability to promote. The song was serviced to radio stations, and it actually made a local chart or two, but I think Flo was the problem and not so much ABC, aside from the fact that ABC was the wrong label and they largely paired her with a producer who was giving her songs that mostly didn't work for her. There's speculation that because of a writer's strike[[?) or something going on with Detroit press at the time, that coverage Flo might have gotten at home to promote the singles, didn't happen. I'm guessing that if the hometown crowd had been able to get behind Flo, it could have swelled from there. We'll never know.

[sup_fan]

I think there's enough reflections from those present at the time to conclude with a fair amount of certainty that there was more to it than the failure of the singles. However, had the singles taken off and been major hits- one might be able to argue even if the singles had been mediocre hits- Flo's issues would not have necessarily gotten her the boot. I'm not sure ABC felt any kind of way about Flo having alcohol issues [[I'm betting half of the entertainers of the day had some kind of substance abuse issues), and I don't know what, if any, mental issues she may have presented while with the label. I also can't recall Tommy being all that problematic once he stopped operating as Flo's manager. That being said, Flo's pregnancy was probably the biggest issue. The timing was absolutely horrible. Imagine being pregnant and trying to put together a solo career. The recording, the traveling, the meet and greets. Morning sickness, aches and pains, fatigue, cravings. That poor lady had to be under a tremendous amount of stress, which might explain the twins' premature birth. I think the cancelled Latin Casino gig which caused the booking agency to drop her might have been the final nail in the ABC coffin. At that point Flo looks unreliable, regardless of the circumstances. I'm not sure how she scored the Nixon inaugural gig, but kudos to her for that. ABC didn't stop after one failed record, they gave Flo another one. When that one sank without a trace I can imagine ABC did what most other companies did in these situations: showed Flo the door.

i hadn't heard that she landed a booking at the Latin Casino. that seems far out of her reach as a solo singer.

but completely agree about the timing of the pregnancy. and in the 60s there was little empathy or assistance for a woman being pregnant. so yeah, i don't know of a worse situation to have been in

[RanRan79]

i think most historians presume that ABC signed Flo with the intent of having their own Supremes sound/act. that all 3 of the sups had that pop voice. and so they saddled her with all of those mediocre pop tunes, only adding a few more r&b ones like Love Ain't Love and Like You Babe. so it was practically a given that the music wouldn't really hit. plus this was 1968 and the Sups [[a very well established act) were running into problems keeping with youthful pop tunes going. Forever and Some Things were released through the first half of 68 and did nothing really either.

so you have this perfect storm of Flo not be able to do any official promotion as a "former supreme", you have crap music, you have her pregnant, you have Gordy possibly pushing djs and radios NOT to play her stuff, you have flo's attitude problems, you have Tommy the halfwit trying to manager her career and demanding all sorts of stuff

I don't know about most historians Sup, but I have seen that written once or twice. And I call bullshit. I'm guessing Flo had to audition, and if so any idiot would be able to figure out from the getty up that Flo and Diana were two entirely different singers. And let's presume for the sake of argument that there was a decision to sign her without an audition, that none of the execs at ABC would first do their homework seems a bit preposterous. Surely they would have known or found out about Meet, C&W and Sam Cooke with Flo's leads on them and then would have listened and learned who she was as a vocalist. She aint "Baby Love" or "I Hear A Symphony". Did they want to turn Flo into some kind of pop songstress? Maybe. Or did George Kerr think that was the way to go on some of the cuts he produced where she clearly is going for a more pop sound than the usual Flo sound? It would be interesting to learn ABC's thoughts on Florence, because as far as I know, there hasn't been anything on the record regarding the label's plans for her or their thoughts on her time with them. I imagine a lot of them have probably passed on, but I would think there would be at least a few still around who might remember.

[sup_fan]

"Some sort of splash" is subjective also, though. "It Doesn't Matter" isn't really a bad record, but listening to it and then comparing what else was out at the time, IMO it was fighting a losing battle from the start. "Love Aint Love" is actually very good, but by then Flo was waaaayyyy into her pregnancy and I have to imagine this hampered her ability to promote. The song was serviced to radio stations, and it actually made a local chart or two, but I think Flo was the problem and not so much ABC, aside from the fact that ABC was the wrong label and they largely paired her with a producer who was giving her songs that mostly didn't work for her. There's speculation that because of a writer's strike[[?) or something going on with Detroit press at the time, that coverage Flo might have gotten at home to promote the singles, didn't happen. I'm guessing that if the hometown crowd had been able to get behind Flo, it could have swelled from there. We'll never know.

but there were still local tv shows she could have done. in detroit, in chicago, cleveland. get it to be a regional hit at least

but you're right. Flo was already a bigger framed woman and being pregnant and pregnant with twins would have made it simply impossible to continue her career. remember it was rather scandalous when Lucy was pregnant in her show. as crazy as it sounds today, there really was no way Flo would have been allowed to perform on tv in that condition.

[RanRan79]

i hadn't heard that she landed a booking at the Latin Casino. that seems far out of her reach as a solo singer.

but completely agree about the timing of the pregnancy. and in the 60s there was little empathy or assistance for a woman being pregnant. so yeah, i don't know of a worse situation to have been in

When Flo signed with the booking agency, her career started to go in another direction. And let's be honest, after Tommy trying to book it all, it couldn't have gotten any worse. Anyway, when Flo cancelled, the venue lost a lot of money on food. I'm guessing she cancelled at the last minute. A no no. The agency said fuck this shit and dropped Flo. It was one step forward and fifteen steps back with her, it seems.

[RanRan79]

but there were still local tv shows she could have done. in detroit, in chicago, cleveland. get it to be a regional hit at least

but you're right. Flo was already a bigger framed woman and being pregnant and pregnant with twins would have made it simply impossible to continue her career. remember it was rather scandalous when Lucy was pregnant in her show. as crazy as it sounds today, there really was no way Flo would have been allowed to perform on tv in that condition.

Actually Sup, she did do some local tv while pregnant. I think it was a New York show that the host even interviewed her about "expecting", or so it's been said by someone who recalled the show. Now that I think of it, I'm not sure how far along Flo was at the time, and so wouldn't know how big she was. I think the latest into Flo's pregnancy that I've seen photos is from when she was honored at the Billiken Parade, which is in August, and she's sitting in those. Who knows what her weight was like going into September and then October. Although the photos from when the twins were newborns, Flo looks fantastic.

[marybrewster]

Did Flo embrace singing, did she thirst music?
Or did she Moreso enjoy the thrill of it , the glamor, the excitement , traveling, the applause, and was perfectly happy being five steps behind Diana Ross on stage.
When it suddenly became 100% about her in every respect , I can imagine that being overwhelming, especially after being a kept and pampered performer within the Motown machine and while part of a larger inter-supportive act.

When ABC asked her what she’d like to now sing , did she shrug her shoulders ?

That's spot on. I think Flo suddenly found herself thinking, now what? Where were the limos and the champagne? I'm not being b*tchy by saying this, but all of a sudden, I think Flo thought "Oops". Now what am I gonna do.

[RanRan79]

That's spot on. I think Flo suddenly found herself thinking, now what? Where were the limos and the champagne? I'm not being b*tchy by saying this, but all of a sudden, I think Flo thought "Oops". Now what am I gonna do.

Based on what, though? According to Cholly, she knew what she wanted to do and she knew what she didn't want to do [[no Supremes songs). She and George Kerr fought in the studio, apparently over direction. Not to say she wasn't overwhelmed. I imagine she was. But an "oops"? This is what she said she had wanted to do her whole life. Singing is what she banked her future on [[hence quitting school). And she wasn't without help, Tommy not included. She had enough sense to call on folks like Cholly and Al Abrams to help her out. And after everything she had endured in the years since- the legal battles, the mental health issues, alcoholism, welfare, marital issues- she still decided that getting back into the music business was her future, until death ended that.

The truth is that in 1968 Flo Ballard was starting from scratch. She couldn't have been dumb enough to think that things were suddenly going to be exactly like they were when she was with the Supremes and had Motown's money behind her. The worst thing about the Flo Ballard solo career, IMO, is that when ABC dropped her, she got caught up in fighting the world. First it was the newspaper that claimed she was broke. Then it was the lawyer who stole her money. Then it was Motown. And I am not at all saying she didn't have a right to wage those fights. If she wasn't exactly "broke", then the paper had no business printing that. The lawyer stole her money, she had every right to fight for what was hers. I don't think there's anyone willing to argue that Motown probably didn't owe Flo some more money. Was it the millions she initially sued for? Only Motown would know and it's not my place to speculate. But my spidey senses tell me that the amount Flo got in her settlement- while supposedly more than Mary and Diana ended up with when they left the company- probably wasn't all she was owed. So I get it. But what if she had decided to wage those wars on the side and continued to perform? What if she had sought out another label? Her story could have been different. But as apparently happened in the Supremes, when Flo got locked in on her enemy, she didn't see reason or the forest for the trees.

[rod_rick]

What James brown track is that? I’d enjoy comparing them.

Take a listen to this and tell me what you think

https://youtu.be/k6V9w51Npd0

[rod_rick]

i believe that ever word of that was concocted by Mary and/or Pedro. Bayou on here has said that while marvin might say something in passing along the lines of "hey maybe we should tour sometimes", it wasn't an actual plan or strategy. plus marvin was a hot mess at this time, heavy in drugs. imagine he and mary working their way through mountains of coke while touring! if nothing else it could have provided some outrageous stories!

Miss Tony Turner would have had a field day!! lol

The sad part is all the crap that Mary was going through with Pedro at the time a tour with Marvin would have been a disaster

[Boogiedown]

rod_rick

Originally Posted by Boogiedown

What James brown track is that? I’d enjoy comparing them.

Take a listen to this and tell me what you think

https://youtu.be/k6V9w51Npd0

I believe I could mix pretty nicely between those two! Yes the break at 4:00 by James and the break by Mary at 3:08 are quite similar.

[Boogiedown]

RanRan79

According to Cholly, she knew what she wanted to do and she knew what she didn't want to do [[no Supremes songs).

begging the question, what was it then she wanted to do??

[sup_fan]

Based on what, though? According to Cholly, she knew what she wanted to do and she knew what she didn't want to do [[no Supremes songs). She and George Kerr fought in the studio, apparently over direction. Not to say she wasn't overwhelmed. I imagine she was. But an "oops"? This is what she said she had wanted to do her whole life. Singing is what she banked her future on [[hence quitting school). And she wasn't without help, Tommy not included. She had enough sense to call on folks like Cholly and Al Abrams to help her out. And after everything she had endured in the years since- the legal battles, the mental health issues, alcoholism, welfare, marital issues- she still decided that getting back into the music business was her future, until death ended that.

The truth is that in 1968 Flo Ballard was starting from scratch. She couldn't have been dumb enough to think that things were suddenly going to be exactly like they were when she was with the Supremes and had Motown's money behind her. The worst thing about the Flo Ballard solo career, IMO, is that when ABC dropped her, she got caught up in fighting the world. First it was the newspaper that claimed she was broke. Then it was the lawyer who stole her money. Then it was Motown. And I am not at all saying she didn't have a right to wage those fights. If she wasn't exactly "broke", then the paper had no business printing that. The lawyer stole her money, she had every right to fight for what was hers. I don't think there's anyone willing to argue that Motown probably didn't owe Flo some more money. Was it the millions she initially sued for? Only Motown would know and it's not my place to speculate. But my spidey senses tell me that the amount Flo got in her settlement- while supposedly more than Mary and Diana ended up with when they left the company- probably wasn't all she was owed. So I get it. But what if she had decided to wage those wars on the side and continued to perform? What if she had sought out another label? Her story could have been different. But as apparently happened in the Supremes, when Flo got locked in on her enemy, she didn't see reason or the forest for the trees.

while i completely acknowledge that Tony Turner is NOT a highly source, he certainly spends plenty of time on the extravagant lifestyle Flo was leading post-Motown. by the sounds of it, she was still very much living the Supremes' lifestyle even though she hadn't recorded Song 1 yet. she's certainly not the only person to do this but she definitely didn't appear to adjust her lifestyle in response to a change to her earning potential

and the time i'm referring to is late 67, into 68. when the label dropped her, that's sort of starts the decline. you then have bad event after bad event piling up. and it's understandable that she just didn't know what to do, how to pull herself out of this spiral. other than just saying "i'm done with entertaining and just going to go get a job with the city" or something. but i think that's where the mental problems she had been suffering through the mid 60s ballooned

[RanRan79]

while i completely acknowledge that Tony Turner is NOT a highly source, he certainly spends plenty of time on the extravagant lifestyle Flo was leading post-Motown. by the sounds of it, she was still very much living the Supremes' lifestyle even though she hadn't recorded Song 1 yet. she's certainly not the only person to do this but she definitely didn't appear to adjust her lifestyle in response to a change to her earning potential

and the time i'm referring to is late 67, into 68. when the label dropped her, that's sort of starts the decline. you then have bad event after bad event piling up. and it's understandable that she just didn't know what to do, how to pull herself out of this spiral. other than just saying "i'm done with entertaining and just going to go get a job with the city" or something. but i think that's where the mental problems she had been suffering through the mid 60s ballooned

Yeah, at this point I do not source Tall Tales. As far as I'm concerned, he never even saw Flo again after she left the Supremes. Until he proves otherwise, I'll stick with my view.

Keep in mind that legit sources have said Flo was never one that lived as extravagantly as the other two Supremes, meaning throwing money around like there was no end, not that she didn't live...supremely. So was she taking limos everywhere, or was Tommy driving her around in her fancy car? Who knows?

I agree that once things began to spiral, it seemed to get out of control. I still feel one of the most underrated, or underappreciated, aspects of Flo's story is how after all that stuff she still managed to crawl out of despair. Not that her life suddenly became perfect. No one's life is perfect, ever. But had Flo died, say after the news broke that she was on welfare, I don't think anybody would have been shocked that everything had taken a toll. But instead she got herself together, sought treatment for the alcoholism, performed again, reconnected with former buddies and made it known that her destination was the music business again. I hope this doesn't sound crass, but that damn heart attack came at the worst possible time. It seems like there was more to come from Flo and on the eve of the next phase...boom. She's gone.

[RanRan79]

Bringing the topic back to Mary...

No thoughts on my idea about Mary and Diana doing a duet? I didn't think it was that bad of an idea.

[marybrewster]

Yeah, at this point I do not source Tall Tales. As far as I'm concerned, he never even saw Flo again after she left the Supremes. Until he proves otherwise, I'll stick with my view.

Keep in mind that legit sources have said Flo was never one that lived as extravagantly as the other two Supremes, meaning throwing money around like there was no end, not that she didn't live...supremely. So was she taking limos everywhere, or was Tommy driving her around in her fancy car? Who knows?

I agree that once things began to spiral, it seemed to get out of control. I still feel one of the most underrated, or underappreciated, aspects of Flo's story is how after all that stuff she still managed to crawl out of despair. Not that her life suddenly became perfect. No one's life is perfect, ever. But had Flo died, say after the news broke that she was on welfare, I don't think anybody would have been shocked that everything had taken a toll. But instead she got herself together, sought treatment for the alcoholism, performed again, reconnected with former buddies and made it known that her destination was the music business again. I hope this doesn't sound crass, but that damn heart attack came at the worst possible time. It seems like there was more to come from Flo and on the eve of the next phase...boom. She's gone.

Wasn't it said that Flo threw a lot of $$$ to her family; brothers and sisters? Not saying she shouldn't have, but a classic case of not saving for a rainy day. I thought I read a quote once that there was a certain expectation if you were a Supreme Sibling, namely a sister, to dress and carry yourself a certain way.

[reese]

Wasn't it said that Flo threw a lot of $$$ to her family; brothers and sisters? Not saying she shouldn't have, but a classic case of not saving for a rainy day. I thought I read a quote once that there was a certain expectation if you were a Supreme Sibling, namely a sister, to dress and carry yourself a certain way.

In her first book, Mary wrote that Flo withdrew far money out of her account than she and Diana did, and that there was no end to her family's requests.

In his book, Tony Turner wrote that Flo told him that being a Supreme sibling made you popular in Detroit and they needed to look the part or something to that effect.

[sup_fan]

Randy's books have also highlighted just how little the girls were making. compared to a teacher or store clerk or secretary - of course they were rich and earning a lot. but their royalty rate didn't really make them "mega rich" and they all lived quite lavishly. designer clothing, jewelry, the houses, all of the interior decorating, furs, luxury cars, etc.

Also Randy points out that they earned royalties and not a salary. therefore some deductions that we think are standard, weren't taken out. for instance, they wouldn't have paid into social security because this isn't a salary. and sure - when you're 22 and making a lot of money, who bothers to stop and think about planning for when you're 70

the girls were definitely living the life that their publicity machine concocted. and when Flo left the group, it doesn't sound like she immediately cut all her spending. according the TT and then the articles we've seen from Jet and all, i'd guess she was still living pretty high. we do know she sub-letted a penthouse in NYC. that's certainly much more extravagant than just staying at a regular hotel for the brief periods you'll be in the city.

anyway, clearly she didn't have money saved since she was essentially broke by 70

[Boogiedown]

Being an ex Supreme wasn’t enough. It just made one a used to be. I don’t think there’s ever been a shortage of finding people who can sing. And even then, Motown found it easy to stick someone else in to replace you, no matter how hot stuff you thought you were. Being the total package was the key …..and being a total narcissist, as in titling oneself the queen of Christmas, or from listening to Diana Ross being totally focused on her important self on her ‘evening with’ live LP.
Flo does not strike me as being that type of person.

[sup_fan]

Being an ex Supreme wasn’t enough. It just made one a used to be. I don’t think there’s ever been a shortage of finding people who can sing. And even then, Motown found it easy to stick someone else in to replace you, no matter how hot stuff you thought you were. Being the total package was the key …..and being a total narcissist, as in titling oneself the queen of Christmas, or from listening to Diana Ross being totally focused on her important self on her ‘evening with’ live LP.
Flo does not strike me as being that type of person.

it does often seem that artists almost have to have a high degree of narcissism. perhaps you could say that Cher and Dolly go against this to some degree. or that at least part of their celebrity persona is a more "laid back" or "down home" vibe. of course they've both had so much plastic surgery, there's clearly SOME narcissism there. but their stage and public image has a more down to earth aspect

so it's possible that Flo could have leveraged that. But while Cher and Dolly are "just one of us" in their personas, i think both are very astute businesswomen and have a very clear and precise understanding of who they are and what they want. even as a younger performer, dolly had this sense about her. I don't think Flo ever did

[sup_fan]

so we've all talked about what we did/didn't like about Mary's debut album. there's a pretty common feeling that the music was just not up to par and it really might not have been the right vehicle for her to launch a solo career.

so what else could she have done at motown?

do you think she might have been able to do a duet album? Syreeta and Billy Preston did With You I'm Born Again. could that have been Mary's debut? her and Billy? could they have been motown's answer to Peaches and Herb?

[Boogiedown]

I’ll give Dolly full credit for being a songwriter and musician besides engaging and entertaining. Cher ? Right place, right time , sonny bono.

[Ollie9]

so we've all talked about what we did/didn't like about Mary's debut album. there's a pretty common feeling that the music was just not up to par and it really might not have been the right vehicle for her to launch a solo career.

so what else could she have done at motown?

do you think she might have been able to do a duet album? Syreeta and Billy Preston did With You I'm Born Again. could that have been Mary's debut? her and Billy? could they have been motown's answer to Peaches and Herb?

I don’t think a duet album would have been the answer, unless with Marvin or Stevie which was never going to happen. Smokey Robinson being familiar with her voice might have been a good choice as producer, to include a duet for extra. media interest.

[RanRan79]

Florence was apparently freehearted with her money. [[Giving to family, the story of Flo giving money to someone on the street, Flo throwing money out a window to fans hanging out below, etc.) I think that's a far different thing [[although the result could end up being the same) as flowing champagne and limos everywhere. Mary pointed out Flo withdrawing money for her family but apparently didn't see much of a problem with the amount of money she [[and Diana) would withdraw to gamble at the crap tables.

[RanRan79]

So, did everybody get together and decide to completely ignore my question about thoughts regarding Mary and Diana doing a duet when Mary went solo?

Y'all dirty.

[reese]

So, did everybody get together and decide to completely ignore my question about thoughts regarding Mary and Diana doing a duet when Mary went solo?

Y'all dirty.

We actually called a meeting to discuss it. Obviously, you weren't invited.

But to answer your question, a Mary / Diana duet might have been nice. A really strong album track. I wouldn't have made it the first single since Mary was trying to establish herself as a solo. Because if it had been a hit, the consensus might have been that it was only because of Diana and then Mary would have had to come back with a really strong second single.

[RanRan79]

We actually called a meeting to discuss it. Obviously, you weren't invited.

But to answer your question, a Mary / Diana duet might have been nice. A really strong album track. I wouldn't have made it the first single since Mary was trying to establish herself as a solo. Because if it had been a hit, the consensus might have been that it was only because of Diana and then Mary would have had to come back with a really strong second single.

Ha!! Apparently!!!

I agree with you though on it not being the first single.

[TomatoTom123]

This is not a bad track at all. I like it. [Although I also like "Red Hot" ]

Also Ran, normally your ideas are pretty great, but a Mary-Diana duet? Really???

To be honest, I couldn’t really see that working, unless it was 5 years into Mary's successful solo career or something like that. I think this early on it would have been quite strange, especially for an artist trying to establish a solo career away from "[Diana Ross &] The Supremes".

It would have been pretty interesting [and almost definitely fantastic] to hear though!!

[Ollie9]

I do wonder just what Mary might have achieved had Motown been fully invested in her solo career. Would they have taken her in an entirely different direction?.
Perhaps even with the company’s total support, it might have eventually proved the wrong label for her to be with.

[RanRan79]

This is not a bad track at all. I like it. [Although I also like "Red Hot" ]

Also Ran, normally your ideas are pretty great, but a Mary-Diana duet? Really???

To be honest, I couldn’t really see that working, unless it was 5 years into Mary's successful solo career or something like that. I think this early on it would have been quite strange, especially for an artist trying to establish a solo career away from "[Diana Ross &] The Supremes".

It would have been pretty interesting [and almost definitely fantastic] to hear though!!

Yes Tom, really. Lol If Diana's name could be used to help launch the Jackson Five, why couldn't she be used to help launch Mary Wilson?

That being said, I do see the potential problems that could exist, namely what Reese and yourself point out. A duet five years later seems a better idea, but it also seems to me that if the two ladies would reunite at that point, why not bring in Cindy and make it a Supremes reunion single?

So I guess if I were planning anything, I'd team Mary and Diana up for a single from the second album.

[RanRan79]

I do wonder just what Mary might have achieved had Motown been fully invested in her solo career. Would they have taken her in an entirely different direction?.
Perhaps even with the company’s total support, it might have eventually proved the wrong label for her to be with.

I have to believe that even at that slow stage of Motown Records there was someone there with knowledge and ability to pair Mary with a sound that worked for her. The "generic" disco wasn't it. I don't even think the "first class" disco that Diana was doing, was it either. Was it something like Charlene's "I've Never Been To Me"? Certainly Mary could have done that song as well or better than Charlene. But the song's hit status was such a fluke that I wouldn't feel comfortable suggesting that Mary should have done it instead.

Smokey Robinson seems like he'd be a good fit, that he'd understand how best to utilize Mary's voice and the sound to pair her with. I also think Art Stewart would have done a fantastic job of pairing Mary's jazzy voice with contemporary r&b and pop.

But I think we always have to go back to the "fact" that Motown- the ones with "greenlight" power- just wasn't interested in Mary. It probably went beyond not being interested; they just didn't want anything to do with her. Mary claims the label offered her a solo deal around the time she left the Supremes. What we know is that the deal wasn't inked until her lawsuit was settled, causing many of us to conclude that the deal was the settlement. Was there someone at Motown interested in Mary when she was leaving the group? Maybe. I think with what she sang on the last three Supremes albums, she may have proven to the label that she was certainly capable of stepping out on her own. But after the suit, I think the company just wanted to be done with her, handed her over to Hal, told him to try something, released what he came up with and when it all tanked, they told Mary to beat it. The really mind boggling part is that Mary took the initiative of heading into her follow up album and actually found a producer who had a good read on the direction Mary needed to head in, and despite coming up with three great demos [[and one iffy demo in "Green River" IMO), Motown was so ready to be done with Mary that they escorted her to the door and handed her the masters as a parting gift. Too bad because the second album might have been good not just for Mary Wilson, but for Motown Records too, because the hits were coming fewer and farther between.

[sup_fan]

I have to believe that even at that slow stage of Motown Records there was someone there with knowledge and ability to pair Mary with a sound that worked for her. The "generic" disco wasn't it. I don't even think the "first class" disco that Diana was doing, was it either. Was it something like Charlene's "I've Never Been To Me"? Certainly Mary could have done that song as well or better than Charlene. But the song's hit status was such a fluke that I wouldn't feel comfortable suggesting that Mary should have done it instead.

Smokey Robinson seems like he'd be a good fit, that he'd understand how best to utilize Mary's voice and the sound to pair her with. I also think Art Stewart would have done a fantastic job of pairing Mary's jazzy voice with contemporary r&b and pop.

But I think we always have to go back to the "fact" that Motown- the ones with "greenlight" power- just wasn't interested in Mary. It probably went beyond not being interested; they just didn't want anything to do with her. Mary claims the label offered her a solo deal around the time she left the Supremes. What we know is that the deal wasn't inked until her lawsuit was settled, causing many of us to conclude that the deal was the settlement. Was there someone at Motown interested in Mary when she was leaving the group? Maybe. I think with what she sang on the last three Supremes albums, she may have proven to the label that she was certainly capable of stepping out on her own. But after the suit, I think the company just wanted to be done with her, handed her over to Hal, told him to try something, released what he came up with and when it all tanked, they told Mary to beat it. The really mind boggling part is that Mary took the initiative of heading into her follow up album and actually found a producer who had a good read on the direction Mary needed to head in, and despite coming up with three great demos [[and one iffy demo in "Green River" IMO), Motown was so ready to be done with Mary that they escorted her to the door and handed her the masters as a parting gift. Too bad because the second album might have been good not just for Mary Wilson, but for Motown Records too, because the hits were coming fewer and farther between.

i think you're right. i don't know what all happened behind the scenes, even prior to Pedro coming in. but even in the 60s they seemed to just give Mary token leads. but they clearly invested $0 money in her outside of the overall investments they made into the group as a whole. but other than doing a random song like Can't Take My Eyes or a few lines like in Mrs Robinson, they did nothing. once jean was onboard, again more just token work. and that was when there was still significant money coming in. could Deke or others have taken more time to develop her as a vocalist in 69? quite possibly. Frank seems to have had some interest in her too but that never really went too far.

so i don't know why - was it something political? was it the internal teams thought she and Flo were too lazy, like what they were saying about the Copa preparations? was it reason A, B or C? don't know

but since there was minimal to 0 interest in 69 and 70 when things were still hot for the group, by 78 there was absolutely no interest

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think everyone here doesn't really realize how show business and the general public was compared to today. Today, a group like Destiny's Child may have had a mega star like Beyonce but the business had changed and both Kelly Rowland and Michelle Williams had record deals and varying success on their own. Back in the 60's and 70's, the perception was that the lead singer was chosen as the star because they alone were a mega talent. Motown really promoted Diana Ross as a mega talent, which she certainly was at that time. The consensus was probably that Florence and Mary didn't have the talent to become anything more than background singers other than the fact they were not chosen. Probably when ABC Records chose Flo they were expecting an exact duplicate of Diana Ross. Clearly in a group each member has their own distinct sound, so all three weren't going to sound exactly the same . Probably, the business and even the general public at that time thought well, they weren't the one chose by the record company as the talent then why should I ? I know Mary Wilson stated many record companies inquired while she was shopping around "can she sing?". They really don't know because it was so heavily dominated by Diana. I think occasional spotlighted leads especially on album cuts and on television during their heyday may have helped. But during that time, it was quite different. As I said, the other members weren't chosen so why should I choose them? It is truly a shame because of the loss of talent and proper career direction for Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard, not to mention the 70's groupings.

[marybrewster]

Maybe the answer is that Mary never needed a record deal. She could have achieved just as much success as a "solo"; touring with her Supremes act, with and without backup singers.

Sure, her albums gave her something to promote, but never gave her that "success" outside of being a Supreme.

[Boogiedown]

Being an ex anything was weighted baggage.
too many fresh faces and voices in bountiful supply to cater to younger audiences, rather than having to work with reinventing somebody. Diana Ross should count her lucky stars she broke into the new disco sound as an aged outsider, thanks to quality compositions and her gay following supporting her in the clubs.
even Aretha, a talent at many levels, had to be rescued by Clive Davis. Dionne too. Nobody was waiting eager to snag them up.

[sup_fan]

I think everyone here doesn't really realize how show business and the general public was compared to today. Today, a group like Destiny's Child may have had a mega star like Beyonce but the business had changed and both Kelly Rowland and Michelle Williams had record deals and varying success on their own. Back in the 60's and 70's, the perception was that the lead singer was chosen as the star because they alone were a mega talent. Motown really promoted Diana Ross as a mega talent, which she certainly was at that time. The consensus was probably that Florence and Mary didn't have the talent to become anything more than background singers other than the fact they were not chosen. Probably when ABC Records chose Flo they were expecting an exact duplicate of Diana Ross. Clearly in a group each member has their own distinct sound, so all three weren't going to sound exactly the same . Probably, the business and even the general public at that time thought well, they weren't the one chose by the record company as the talent then why should I ? I know Mary Wilson stated many record companies inquired while she was shopping around "can she sing?". They really don't know because it was so heavily dominated by Diana. I think occasional spotlighted leads especially on album cuts and on television during their heyday may have helped. But during that time, it was quite different. As I said, the other members weren't chosen so why should I choose them? It is truly a shame because of the loss of talent and proper career direction for Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard, not to mention the 70's groupings.

actually had there really been much of lead singers leaving a group and going solo? if they did, they were launched from groups with only a fraction of the success of the supremes. and odds are the lead singer, while maybe doing ok, didn't emerge as a mega talent

the problem is The Supremes weren't just any group. they were a totally unique concept at that point in time. and much of that success [[though not all of it) was due to Diana. so you have a lead singer that is just so very different from other lead singers

[Spreadinglove21]

Destiny's child, once their line up solidified as Beyonce, Kelly and Michelle, had hits that while always spotlighting Beyonce allowed Kelly and sometimes Michelle to sing some lead parts. And the group came to an end while still doing well rather than fading like the Supremes did. And Kelly and Michelle did not try to carry Destiny's Child on with other singers filling Beyonce's spot in the group so no revolving door post Beyonce, as there was with the Supremes post Ross. Destiny's Child revolving door issues occurred as they were on the rise and it made them newsworthy which they capitalized with by naming their first BKM line up album "Survivor" which was also the name of huge hit TV show of the time. Also before the last Destiny's child album, all 3 members launched their solo careers to varying degrees of success.

One wonders if Mary may have had a better chance of a stronger solo recording career if she had agreed to end the Supremes when Diana left? Or should she have done what Otis and Melvin did and just carried on with the Supremes, firing Pedro [[preferably), or Scherrie and/or Susaye [[if she was finding them impossible to work with), in 1977?

[marybrewster]

Meanwhile the three former DC members, LaToya, LaTavia, and Farrah, haven't done much except cry about being former DC members, lol.

[reese]

Meanwhile the three former DC members, LaToya, LaTavia, and Farrah, haven't done much except cry about being former DC members, lol.

LeToya has gone on to become an actress. I think I saw one of the others on a reality show, R&B DIVAS perhaps. But she was reluctant to sing.

[sup_fan]

Destiny's child, once their line up solidified as Beyonce, Kelly and Michelle, had hits that while always spotlighting Beyonce allowed Kelly and sometimes Michelle to sing some lead parts. And the group came to an end while still doing well rather than fading like the Supremes did. And Kelly and Michelle did not try to carry Destiny's Child on with other singers filling Beyonce's spot in the group so no revolving door post Beyonce, as there was with the Supremes post Ross. Destiny's Child revolving door issues occurred as they were on the rise and it made them newsworthy which they capitalized with by naming their first BKM line up album "Survivor" which was also the name of huge hit TV show of the time. Also before the last Destiny's child album, all 3 members launched their solo careers to varying degrees of success.

One wonders if Mary may have had a better chance of a stronger solo recording career if she had agreed to end the Supremes when Diana left? Or should she have done what Otis and Melvin did and just carried on with the Supremes, firing Pedro [[preferably), or Scherrie and/or Susaye [[if she was finding them impossible to work with), in 1977?

Randy's book on Beyonce has some interesting comments and comparisons between the Sups and DC. he credits Matthew Knowles with the foresight to at least provide K and M with opportunities on the albums and in the act. the Survivor and Fulfilled albums contain significant amounts of 3 part singing along with shared leads. all of this without really diminishing any of B's star appeal or presence. also when the group split, Matthew helped to provide some leadership and guidance to the other two girls. allowing them to establish some degree of individual accomplishment and artistic expression

[telekin]

Going back to Mary's album and the comments on page one of this thread, I have to say, I wonder if impressions of Mary's first album are coloured by the fact that it is one of the few Mary Wilson solo albums we have, and one that wasn't immediately followed up? I think that's certainly part of the downside of it for me. Though realistically, how many acts, whether group or solo have had debut albums that were either massively acclaimed or big hits right out of the gate? If they did, then it's usually a tough act to follow and often downhill from there.

And as someone who enjoys disco, I still find it to be an enjoyable album, even if it's not as representative as I would have liked. Judging from what Mary said in Supreme Faith, she and everyone involved saw it as a place to start, something to build from. Granted, had they known then that it would be the only album to come from her supposed 5-album Motown deal, and one of the few albums she would ever actually release, period, perhaps all involved would have approached it differently. Perhaps less disco formula and more varied writers and producers. We'll obviously never know, but I'm glad we have the Gus Dudgeon sessions to show what she could have done.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I Remember reading in one of Randy's books that Mary said to a reporter in 1982 that Berry said to her she should have gone solo like Diana and Mary replied that she told him that she didn't have him or Motown behind her. True, surely in 1970 without any Motown backing a solo career would have failed even more had she gone solo and the Supremes disbanded then. I also find it ironic how everyone states Mary kept in her Supremes concerts, which she did to stay financially solvent. Looking at other Supremes-Scherrie had the most non-Supreme even if modest chart success yet she has been in the Former Ladies of the Supremes since 1986. Jean and Lynda wanted to leave the Supremes in 1973 and change the group name yet both were with Scherrie in the FLOs trading off on the name and the group that they both so wanted to leave behind. Yet, they both continued to sing in this group even though in the short time they were in the Supremes [[1970-73) and [[1972-73) they felt artistically stifled by the group's history to only revive it and for Lynda to stay decades in the group. I don't see anyone ever saying why are they still singing Supreme songs. The current grouping even includes two members Scherrie and Susaye who are also songwriters. Honestly, Motown only gave Mary her solo album as a way for her to drop her lawsuit. In the Supremes, under Smokey and the Holland Brothers her true talents were surely nurtured but her solo debut was too much of a departure and should have been looked at as a start. The Gus Dudgen songs for her proposed second LP clearly was the right way to go. Motown just dropped her.

[sup_fan]

I Remember reading in one of Randy's books that Mary said to a reporter in 1982 that Berry said to her she should have gone solo like Diana and Mary replied that she told him that she didn't have him or Motown behind her. True, surely in 1970 without any Motown backing a solo career would have failed even more had she gone solo and the Supremes disbanded then. I also find it ironic how everyone states Mary kept in her Supremes concerts, which she did to stay financially solvent. Looking at other Supremes-Scherrie had the most non-Supreme even if modest chart success yet she has been in the Former Ladies of the Supremes since 1986. Jean and Lynda wanted to leave the Supremes in 1973 and change the group name yet both were with Scherrie in the FLOs trading off on the name and the group that they both so wanted to leave behind. Yet, they both continued to sing in this group even though in the short time they were in the Supremes [[1970-73) and [[1972-73) they felt artistically stifled by the group's history to only revive it and for Lynda to stay decades in the group. I don't see anyone ever saying why are they still singing Supreme songs. The current grouping even includes two members Scherrie and Susaye who are also songwriters. Honestly, Motown only gave Mary her solo album as a way for her to drop her lawsuit. In the Supremes, under Smokey and the Holland Brothers her true talents were surely nurtured but her solo debut was too much of a departure and should have been looked at as a start. The Gus Dudgen songs for her proposed second LP clearly was the right way to go. Motown just dropped her.

it's possible that if mary went solo in 70, she might have had a small minor hit or two. if for no other reason than keeping positive public image on diana. if the 3 supremes went solo and motown really smothered the other two, it would have added to the anti-diana backlack. so they might have done an album with Deke or something - continued with some of the material like If You Let Me. it might have charted and gotten a little action. but then the follow up probably would have fizzled. again, mostly because motown didn't then nor in the past have any interest in M as a vocalist

[RanRan79]

Maybe the answer is that Mary never needed a record deal. She could have achieved just as much success as a "solo"; touring with her Supremes act, with and without backup singers.

Sure, her albums gave her something to promote, but never gave her that "success" outside of being a Supreme.

I think what you pose is truthful, she didn't need a record deal. We know this because the fact is that Mary made good money touring over the years. She carved out her own lane in the business and it worked. However, I think she needed a record deal to satisfy her own personal goals. We have to remember that our favorite stars are still human beings. At that point in Mary's career, a record deal was the point, touring was for promotion. Surely in her mid 30s she didn't see herself as a has been or a legacy artist, nor should she have. As an artist she probably wanted to run with her peers, artistically.

To me the problem, though, will always be that Mary did not learn how to run the business and she didn't assemble a team that could accent her weaknesses with strengths. Did she even have a manager after Pedro? It always seems like Mary was out there [[in the 80s) flopping around, doing any and everything to stay relevant, rather than sitting down, coming up with a concept and direction regarding who she is as an artist and then shopping herself around. Nobody wants an "aging" diva who doesn't know who she is. If you don't know, how is anyone else supposed to know?

[RanRan79]

Meanwhile the three former DC members, LaToya, LaTavia, and Farrah, haven't done much except cry about being former DC members, lol.

I think Farrah sometimes comes out of the shadows to "gripe" about her DC experience, but Letoya and Latavia have long ago moved on. Letoya is a star in her own right, as a singer and an actress. Latavia had a harder time trying to get herself together and she lost a baby at some point which obviously devastated her, but she's rebounded.

I was never much of a fan of DC. I liked their first single and I bought Wrightings On the Wall. Toya and Tavia were my favorites even then, and Kelly's voice was my favorite. Once they were gone, I was out. Beyonce, very talented singer and entertainer, just never appealed to me as an artist, although I've enjoyed some of her stuff, the last of which was probably about 10 years ago.

[RanRan79]

Going back to Mary's album and the comments on page one of this thread, I have to say, I wonder if impressions of Mary's first album are coloured by the fact that it is one of the few Mary Wilson solo albums we have, and one that wasn't immediately followed up? I think that's certainly part of the downside of it for me. Though realistically, how many acts, whether group or solo have had debut albums that were either massively acclaimed or big hits right out of the gate? If they did, then it's usually a tough act to follow and often downhill from there.

And as someone who enjoys disco, I still find it to be an enjoyable album, even if it's not as representative as I would have liked. Judging from what Mary said in Supreme Faith, she and everyone involved saw it as a place to start, something to build from. Granted, had they known then that it would be the only album to come from her supposed 5-album Motown deal, and one of the few albums she would ever actually release, period, perhaps all involved would have approached it differently. Perhaps less disco formula and more varied writers and producers. We'll obviously never know, but I'm glad we have the Gus Dudgeon sessions to show what she could have done.

I don't think that's it. Or should I say, speaking for myself, that's not it at all. I think I'm able to critique it based off of it's own merits, or lack thereof, regardless of what came next. I do think some people can use the album as a knock on Mary's talent, which is definitely unfair. I'd also venture that my view of the album could be colored in some small way by my position that Mary was better than the material she was given. Had Wanda Rogers cut this same album, I might view it better.

I love Wanda's voice once Smokey got a hold to it, but I would definitely put her in the "limited vocalist" category. She definitely needed to be extremely catered to in order to pair her with a song that would play up her strengths, IMO. So if she recorded this album, I might be inclined to rate it a little better because I'm not expecting much in the first place. When I first heard Mary's album, I expected more from her, especially because I had the Gus Dudgeon tracks on a bootleg years before I had a copy of Mary's album. The GD cuts are perfectly Mary, so imagine how much of a let down it was when I heard the album that preceded it. Mary was better than that.

[RanRan79]

I Remember reading in one of Randy's books that Mary said to a reporter in 1982 that Berry said to her she should have gone solo like Diana and Mary replied that she told him that she didn't have him or Motown behind her. True, surely in 1970 without any Motown backing a solo career would have failed even more had she gone solo and the Supremes disbanded then. I also find it ironic how everyone states Mary kept in her Supremes concerts, which she did to stay financially solvent. Looking at other Supremes-Scherrie had the most non-Supreme even if modest chart success yet she has been in the Former Ladies of the Supremes since 1986. Jean and Lynda wanted to leave the Supremes in 1973 and change the group name yet both were with Scherrie in the FLOs trading off on the name and the group that they both so wanted to leave behind. Yet, they both continued to sing in this group even though in the short time they were in the Supremes [[1970-73) and [[1972-73) they felt artistically stifled by the group's history to only revive it and for Lynda to stay decades in the group. I don't see anyone ever saying why are they still singing Supreme songs. The current grouping even includes two members Scherrie and Susaye who are also songwriters. Honestly, Motown only gave Mary her solo album as a way for her to drop her lawsuit. In the Supremes, under Smokey and the Holland Brothers her true talents were surely nurtured but her solo debut was too much of a departure and should have been looked at as a start. The Gus Dudgen songs for her proposed second LP clearly was the right way to go. Motown just dropped her.

Mary should have gone solo in 1970. The problem was that Gordy didn't set Mary up in a position to be able to do that. Had Gordy not had tunnel vision he would have seen that the Supremes were set up to potentially launch the careers of three successful artists. All he had to do was line everything up just right. He would have been a richer man. But all he could see was what Diana could do, and he put all his eggs in that basket. Thank God it paid off. He'd probably kill himself had Diana gone out and flopped, and flopped, and flopped. The farewell show should have been the point where Diana, Flo and Mary went out to their own thing, each in her own lane. Diana would have gone on to do everything she did. Mary could have been this sultry pop sex symbol. Florence could have gone in a sophisticated soul direction, and even do some acting. Instead Flo was fired and Mary did not believe enough in herself to go it alone when it might have been best for her to do.

As far as the FLOS, they can feel how they feel about their time as Supremes and still capitalize off of that time. They put in the work to keep the group going in those years so why not? I'd venture that they gave more to the Supremes than the Supremes gave to them, so when the opportunity arose to finally make the group name work for them, they were super smart to jump on it and I say more power to them.

[marybrewster]

I think what you pose is truthful, she didn't need a record deal. We know this because the fact is that Mary made good money touring over the years. She carved out her own lane in the business and it worked. However, I think she needed a record deal to satisfy her own personal goals. We have to remember that our favorite stars are still human beings. At that point in Mary's career, a record deal was the point, touring was for promotion. Surely in her mid 30s she didn't see herself as a has been or a legacy artist, nor should she have. As an artist she probably wanted to run with her peers, artistically.

To me the problem, though, will always be that Mary did not learn how to run the business and she didn't assemble a team that could accent her weaknesses with strengths. Did she even have a manager after Pedro? It always seems like Mary was out there [[in the 80s) flopping around, doing any and everything to stay relevant, rather than sitting down, coming up with a concept and direction regarding who she is as an artist and then shopping herself around. Nobody wants an "aging" diva who doesn't know who she is. If you don't know, how is anyone else supposed to know?

I agree wholeheartedly.

To your point, Mary always saw herself as a ballad singer, or a jazz singer. Yet everything she put out in the years to come: WALK THE LINE, U, LIFE'S BEEN GOOD TO ME, etc., were anything but. She should have dropped trying to be urban and contemporary, and stuck with what she excelled at. I think ONE NIGHT WITH YOU and her UP CLOSE CD is the Mary she should have been putting out there, not DONT GET MAD GET EVEN.

[Ollie9]

Mary should have gone solo in 1970. The problem was that Gordy didn't set Mary up in a position to be able to do that. Had Gordy not had tunnel vision he would have seen that the Supremes were set up to potentially launch the careers of three successful artists. All he had to do was line everything up just right. He would have been a richer man. But all he could see was what Diana could do, and he put all his eggs in that basket. Thank God it paid off. He'd probably kill himself had Diana gone out and flopped, and flopped, and flopped. The farewell show should have been the point where Diana, Flo and Mary went out to their own thing, each in her own lane. Diana would have gone on to do everything she did. Mary could have been this sultry pop sex symbol. Florence could have gone in a sophisticated soul direction, and even do some acting. Instead Flo was fired and Mary did not believe enough in herself to go it alone when it might have been best for her to do.

As far as the FLOS, they can feel how they feel about their time as Supremes and still capitalize off of that time. They put in the work to keep the group going in those years so why not? I'd venture that they gave more to the Supremes than the Supremes gave to them, so when the opportunity arose to finally make the group name work for them, they were super smart to jump on it and I say more power to them.

I don’t think Mary was quite ready for a solo career in 1970. It was further down the line that she started to gain real confidence in her abilities to lead.
I think the departure of Jean and Lynda in 73 should have been the catalyst that spurred her on to make the transition. She was still relatively young, and had already shared the lead on two hit singles.
The group was also more high profile in 73 then in 77 providing the perfect launch pad.

[RanRan79]

I agree wholeheartedly.

To your point, Mary always saw herself as a ballad singer, or a jazz singer. Yet everything she put out in the years to come: WALK THE LINE, U, LIFE'S BEEN GOOD TO ME, etc., were anything but. She should have dropped trying to be urban and contemporary, and stuck with what she excelled at. I think ONE NIGHT WITH YOU and her UP CLOSE CD is the Mary she should have been putting out there, not DONT GET MAD GET EVEN.

LOL Absolutely! In the end it all worked out. She can probably claim to be the most famous and successful non lead singer of a mega group. If not the most, certainly among the most. She had to have been proud of that.