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    Mary - MIDNIGHT DANCER

    From 1980. I've always thought this should have been the lead single, over RED HOT.

    https://youtu.be/kNwHMRaWSBU

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    I hated this whole album with the exception of Pick up the Pieces. Mary sounds weak and the songs were bland. Songs about dancing are so pedestrian, especially back then. Mary sounds like a different and better singer on the Gus demos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    I hated this whole album with the exception of Pick up the Pieces. Mary sounds weak and the songs were bland. Songs about dancing are so pedestrian, especially back then. Mary sounds like a different and better singer on the Gus demos.
    agreed. pretty much the entire album is a huge disappointment. the MW Anthology has a different mix of Red Hot and it's a little better. but all her grunts and squeaks are not attractive. the Beechwood 45679 segment is completely out of place - she didn't sing that song and frankly by 1979 disco, it was a rather obscure tune so the reference is just lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    From 1980. I've always thought this should have been the lead single, over RED HOT.

    https://youtu.be/kNwHMRaWSBU
    I agree that I did like Midnight Dancer as a single over Red Hot. It took some years for the LP to grow on me. I always preferred Mary on ballads and think I Love A Warm Summer Night was the real winner and Pick Up The Pieces was good. If we were going to go with dance/disco music I always liked Midnight Dancer. It took me many years to realize Mary was paying homage to James Brown when singing Red Hot. I think Midnight Dancer would have been a much better choice as the single.

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    Except that MIDNIGHT DANCER , a no bones about it, disco song , didn’t chart at all on the disco chart so what chance did it have elsewhere ….

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    Except that MIDNIGHT DANCER , a no bones about it, disco song , didn’t chart at all on the disco chart so what chance did it have elsewhere ….
    I didn't realize it was released as a single?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    agreed. pretty much the entire album is a huge disappointment. the MW Anthology has a different mix of Red Hot and it's a little better. but all her grunts and squeaks are not attractive. the Beechwood 45679 segment is completely out of place - she didn't sing that song and frankly by 1979 disco, it was a rather obscure tune so the reference is just lost.
    Funny I was listening to some live stuff on youtube at work today and think most of these songs sound so much better live. I didn't mind the Beachwood 456789 especially in 1979 because we knew where it came but now it sounds really dated.
    As for the grunts and squeaks and what have you, the backing track is similar to a James Brown track recorded around the same time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rod_rick View Post
    Funny I was listening to some live stuff on youtube at work today and think most of these songs sound so much better live. I didn't mind the Beachwood 456789 especially in 1979 because we knew where it came but now it sounds really dated.
    As for the grunts and squeaks and what have you, the backing track is similar to a James Brown track recorded around the same time.
    yeah my point isn't that you can't have grunts and all in the track. i don't think it works here and with her voice

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    Sup--to my ears Mary is over yelping in an attempt to bring life to this bland material and it just didn't work. You don't hear any of that overly dramatic screeching on the Gus tapes. That is how Mary should sing things but I don't think even Aretha could bring life to Red Hot or any of that other stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    From 1980. I've always thought this should have been the lead single, over RED HOT.

    https://youtu.be/kNwHMRaWSBU
    I like this better also, and I don’t think this album is so awful it’s just nothing special. Mary gets everything she’s got and I admire her for trying as hard as she did with some questionable material. I don’t hear any hits on this album and I was rarely compelled to play this when it was out. But I don’t think it’s anything to be ashamed of and I admire Mary’s perseverance for even getting anything on television.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Sup--to my ears Mary is over yelping in an attempt to bring life to this bland material and it just didn't work. You don't hear any of that overly dramatic screeching on the Gus tapes. That is how Mary should sing things but I don't think even Aretha could bring life to Red Hot or any of that other stuff.
    agree. not sure who was responsible for adding these - if the producer encouraged or mary just did it. perhaps having more variety could have worked. but those loud long screeches are just unlistenable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I like this better also, and I don’t think this album is so awful it’s just nothing special. Mary gets everything she’s got and I admire her for trying as hard as she did with some questionable material. I don’t hear any hits on this album and I was rarely compelled to play this when it was out. But I don’t think it’s anything to be ashamed of and I admire Mary’s perseverance for even getting anything on television.
    I agree. To my ears, it's typical 1979 disco. And Mary did the best she could with what was presented to her.

    I've always maintained that this album was Motown's way of getting out of the lawsuit with her. Which, to this day I'll never figure out how she thought this was a good idea. Working further for the company that you're suing? Without a doubt, Motown had no intention of releasing a second album. And I imagine Mary had very little creative control. Here is your producer, and here's what you're singing. With the recent expanded edition, it further proves how little interest there was. No other songs were recorded. Let's just get her in the studio, slap together an LP, and get her out the door. I mean for F sake, some of the printings on the 12 inch of RED HOT say Mary MARTIN. But let's save that for another thread.

    My point to this is, I don't think RED HOT was the lead or the hit. I still like Midnight Dancer; it has a good hook, and ZERO screeching and cat calls, lol.

    Now a better question is: what if RED HOT [[or MIDNIGHT DANCER) HAD been a hit?!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Now a better question is: what if RED HOT [[or MIDNIGHT DANCER) HAD been a hit?!?
    Motown would have probably attempted to squeeze out another hit from the album. If that also became a hit, then Motown may have considered that going forward with Mary could prove profitable and put more resources behind album #2.

    I think most of us agree that Mary's solo deal with Motown was the company's settlement obligation and nothing more. And the evidence you present is damning, as far as I'm concerned. However, it's my understanding that at this point in the game Motown was "struggling". It was not the hitmaking label of it's 60s and early 70s glory days. Only a handful of acts were really doing anything to add good revenue for the company. So if Mary ultimately ended up being that, the label would have had no choice to get behind her in order to get as much money as they could, which they needed. Either that, or they still would have given her the boot, because once the lawsuit happened, rather than it being viewed as business, the company surely took it personally and sometimes companies would rather cut off their noses to spite their faces than to sit the personal aside, even if it means they'd make more money.

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    But honestly signing with Motown as a solo wasn't very smart on Mary's part. Motown's position was that they had to do it per the settlement. When Flo left the Supremes, Motown offered her a solo deal- whether or not anything would have resulted is immaterial at the moment- which Flo wisely declined. Why would she sign with Motown as a soloist after everything that had just gone down? Flo knew she was a talented singer and figured accurately that there were other record labels who would be willing to sign her for her talents.

    Mary should have looked at her own situation the same way. What about this label said to her that they would be in her corner? For years she felt like Motown had been impeding the success of herself and the Supremes, so why would things be different? That first solo venture outside the Supremes was pivotal. While it had been a few years since the Supremes had last held any relevancy to current record buyers [["Heart Walking"), and yes, the business was often a "what have you done lately" mindset, there hadn't been any real failures under the name Mary Wilson. One could argue that the failure of MSS album was a group effort. So Mary fresh out of Motown could have presented any label with a fresh start. Instead she re-signs with Motown, drops a dud album and singles that go nowhere. Now she's a failed solo recording artist. It would take someone with ingenuity to consider signing Mary going forward. It's possible Neil Bogart was that guy, but we'll never know.

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    Maybe no other label was interested in Mary in 1979?

    As for that Midnight Dancer performance clip, if she was committed to presenting herself as a solo act, she should not have had her background singers with her and just lipsynched and performed the song herself. Having the other two shows a reluctance to move on from being a group member.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21 View Post
    Maybe no other label was interested in Mary in 1979?
    Could be. The problem with this argument is that there is no evidence to the contrary because Mary signed with Motown in 1978 or 79 and was with the label until 1980.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it usually the artists who went after the labels and not the other way around? Obviously fresh young talent spotted at a music showcase or a current huge star who might not re-sign with their current label [[i.e. Diana Ross in 1981 from Motown to RCA) would be the exceptions. But it would seem weird to me that Mary Wilson, or most other singers, would be on the radar of labels unless that singer was approaching them. After leaving Motown I think it was a year or so before Mary got her stuff together after leaving Pedro and needing somewhere new to live. She does mention that she eventually shopped the GD demos but it led nowhere, and I suspect she did it when the demo's sound was outdated, which IMO wasn't much longer after they were recorded.

    There were hundreds, if not thousands, of record labels in the US alone. I find it hard to believe that they all came to a consensus "Mary Wilson, no bueno".

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    It was just not good material for an album I felt. I remember trying so hard to like it even skipping "Red Hot". I think if Motown would have done a duet with Mary and another Male singer it could have worked in her favor. Until Mary allowed her voice to get stronger and with more confidence I think she did well with duets.

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    I wonder the public/media reception had Diana recorded the album. Would her commercial sound have elevated the songs to a higher level or would it still have died a death?. It certainly would have had more attention lavished on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post
    It was just not good material for an album I felt. I remember trying so hard to like it even skipping "Red Hot". I think if Motown would have done a duet with Mary and another Male singer it could have worked in her favor. Until Mary allowed her voice to get stronger and with more confidence I think she did well with duets.
    Interesting idea, pairing Mary with another singer, particularly one with a high profile, which wasn't much to choose from at Motown at the time. I think Mary and Marvin would be the likeliest choice, but don't believe he'd be at all receptive to having another duet partner. Mary and Smokey's voices might have complimented one another the best. Her smokey alto and his high tenor could have made for a classic duet. This could have given Mary's album a boost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I wonder the public/media reception had Diana recorded the album. Would her commercial sound have elevated the songs to a higher level or would it still have died a death?. It certainly would have had more attention lavished on it.
    Interesting question. Honestly, I think most of the album would have benefitted from Diana's voice as the material was mostly better suited to her than Mary. Would Diana be enough to elevate the album to a success? I don't think so. It would have done better than it did with Mary, just off Diana's name alone. But as a collection of songs, there isn't much there that would have really wowed the public, Diana or not.

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    Another idea that could have boosted Mary is a duet between her and Diana. Think Donna and Barbra and "No More Tears". I think the public would have eaten it up, and this could have introduced solo Mary to a bigger audience. Mary and Diana always sounded good together as duet partners anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Could be. The problem with this argument is that there is no evidence to the contrary because Mary signed with Motown in 1978 or 79 and was with the label until 1980.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it usually the artists who went after the labels and not the other way around? Obviously fresh young talent spotted at a music showcase or a current huge star who might not re-sign with their current label [[i.e. Diana Ross in 1981 from Motown to RCA) would be the exceptions. But it would seem weird to me that Mary Wilson, or most other singers, would be on the radar of labels unless that singer was approaching them. After leaving Motown I think it was a year or so before Mary got her stuff together after leaving Pedro and needing somewhere new to live. She does mention that she eventually shopped the GD demos but it led nowhere, and I suspect she did it when the demo's sound was outdated, which IMO wasn't much longer after they were recorded.

    There were hundreds, if not thousands, of record labels in the US alone. I find it hard to believe that they all came to a consensus "Mary Wilson, no bueno".
    i've never counted but i don't know that there were that many labels. sure if you counted the fact that motown had, at some points, up to 10 or so simultaneous labels, it was still 1 company. it's not like each were really that independent of one another. yes, they might have focused on different genres and categories. but if the overall sr management didn't like you, you wouldn't have been signed to any of them

    from all accounts, Mary was also very loyal to motown. i think she felt it was important to be at a historically black label. but if in 73 or 77/78 another label reached out and said "hey girls - here's a bunch of money to come sign for us" she would have moved. and i would find it shocking if pedro and mary weren't at least looking at other labels in 78, trying to garner interest.

    the fact remains that she never really had another label option

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post
    It was just not good material for an album I felt. I remember trying so hard to like it even skipping "Red Hot". I think if Motown would have done a duet with Mary and another Male singer it could have worked in her favor. Until Mary allowed her voice to get stronger and with more confidence I think she did well with duets.
    the highest statement that could possibly be made about the album is it's generic disco. and that's really given it some extra loving, to elevate it to that. of course it's great that some fans really enjoy it. Midnight is one of the stronger cuts but again, out of the mediocrity of the album, that's not high praise. the lyrics were pretty weak and it could easily have been a tune from some rompy teen disco movie trash, like Roller Disco High or the nonsense. at this point in disco, you'd had quite of bit of significant influence and new sounds. of course the Bee Gees and SNF made things explode in late 77 and through 78. KC and the Sunshine band made a huge imprint. Disco was also plagued with tons of one hit wonders and people rushing in to cash in on the trend.

    it was an extremely crowded field and you needed something much more compelling to launch a solo career than this record.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Interesting question. Honestly, I think most of the album would have benefitted from Diana's voice as the material was mostly better suited to her than Mary. Would Diana be enough to elevate the album to a success? I don't think so. It would have done better than it did with Mary, just off Diana's name alone. But as a collection of songs, there isn't much there that would have really wowed the public, Diana or not.
    Diana's name would have probably allowed it to at least chart marginally. but her name most definitely wasn't enough. look at Baby It's Me - a beautiful album though perhaps not really timed properly. the sound just wasn't "it" in late 77, not against the power of what Barry and the Gibbs were doing. and the results are 3 weak pop singles

    and then look at the mess of Ross 78. What You Gave Me is at least as good as anything on Mary's album, if not better [[again, that's not high praise lol). Lovin Livin Givin MIGHT have been able to do a little bit on the charts, maybe more in it's original format and not the Donna Summer I Feel Love knock off

    so no, i don't think DR would have guaranteed this to be a hit

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    I've been going through all the old trade magazines this year, and for some reason most labels seemed to have one prominent female artist and she was what they put their promotional muscle behind. I read over and over again that this label or that "already had enough female artists." I never once heard anybody say they had too many male artists. It's no secret that all the other women at Motown, after the Supremes hit big, got mostly ignored. It was perfectly okay to push the Tempts, Tops, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder etc. but there was really only room on the female side for Diana Ross. Mary Wilson was not even in the running.

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    Many interesting points. Motown did offer her a solo contract only to get her to drop her lawsuit. Mary said at Motown she was being portrayed as a rebel and an outcast. Many other labels she went to asked if she could sing. They had no idea as they only "heard" Diana Ross. Motown was bleeding her dry with holding up lawsuits so financially she probably thought it was best to be recording. Yes, there didn't seem to be room for anyone but Diana Ross at Motown. Flo got signed by ABC records but they only released 2 singles and no album and dropped her. I don't think anyone was rushing to sign Mary, Motown probably put the word out that she was suing them and that probably made other labels nervous. Motown only seemed to have their female artists have limited success-consider Gladys Knight, Thelma Houston and Martha Reeves should have all been huge at Motown. The choice of a disco album for Mary was either a misfire or lack of concern at Motown or a plan to have it not be a hit and then to drop her. Anyone who ever heard Mary Wilson knew she excelled on soul love ballads. You could throw in a few disco and rock tinged tunes for variety. I did like A Warm Summer Night and of the disco songs Midnight Dancer was better than the rest. Yes, Motown wanted to make money but they obviously only added Mary to the label to have her drop her lawsuit and then drop her after giving her an album of songs that were not her strong suit. Motown didn't do much for Scherrie Payne or Susaye Greene either. Both as solo could have excelled at Motown. Scherrie later had some chart action on some nondescript labels. Jean Terrell went to A&M, probably on the strength of her earlier Supremes hits but then she faded away because she wouldn't tour and didn't promote herself. A&M probably then saw why Motown didn't sign her or why she didn't stay in the group past 1973. I do see it as sexist that Motown and other labels only promote 1 female artist while having many men on their roster. Mary could have easily been Motown's female soul balladeer and successful with label support for her talent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i've never counted but i don't know that there were that many labels. sure if you counted the fact that motown had, at some points, up to 10 or so simultaneous labels, it was still 1 company. it's not like each were really that independent of one another. yes, they might have focused on different genres and categories. but if the overall sr management didn't like you, you wouldn't have been signed to any of them

    from all accounts, Mary was also very loyal to motown. i think she felt it was important to be at a historically black label. but if in 73 or 77/78 another label reached out and said "hey girls - here's a bunch of money to come sign for us" she would have moved. and i would find it shocking if pedro and mary weren't at least looking at other labels in 78, trying to garner interest.

    the fact remains that she never really had another label option
    I'd be interested in the answer to the question of just how many record labels were in operation in the US, particularly during the time we're talking about. I don't think I'm off the mark by suggesting there are hundreds, considering how many times I run across record labels I've never even heard of, yet they were recording and releasing some of my favorite stuff. If I had the time- and I don't- I'd go through the music on my laptop to see how many different labels are involved. That's a tedious task that might have been cool to do during 2020, but not now that life has picked back up. Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    I've been going through all the old trade magazines this year, and for some reason most labels seemed to have one prominent female artist and she was what they put their promotional muscle behind. I read over and over again that this label or that "already had enough female artists." I never once heard anybody say they had too many male artists. It's no secret that all the other women at Motown, after the Supremes hit big, got mostly ignored. It was perfectly okay to push the Tempts, Tops, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder etc. but there was really only room on the female side for Diana Ross. Mary Wilson was not even in the running.
    I largely agree with this, except I would point out that Gladys Knight was a major hit maker at Motown during Diana's reign. Yes, she was also coupled with a group of guys, but I don't think the Pips made a difference in Motown's push of the group. For all of Gladys' complaints, valid and invalid any of them may have been, she was a household name almost from day one at Motown. Motown really didn't pull any expenses to make her and the Pips bigger stars, and I suspect that in reality, had the money not been an issue, Gladys and the guys would have been just fine remaining Motown artists, and might possibly have continued to have great success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Many interesting points. Motown did offer her a solo contract only to get her to drop her lawsuit. Mary said at Motown she was being portrayed as a rebel and an outcast. Many other labels she went to asked if she could sing. They had no idea as they only "heard" Diana Ross. Motown was bleeding her dry with holding up lawsuits so financially she probably thought it was best to be recording. Yes, there didn't seem to be room for anyone but Diana Ross at Motown. Flo got signed by ABC records but they only released 2 singles and no album and dropped her. I don't think anyone was rushing to sign Mary, Motown probably put the word out that she was suing them and that probably made other labels nervous. Motown only seemed to have their female artists have limited success-consider Gladys Knight, Thelma Houston and Martha Reeves should have all been huge at Motown. The choice of a disco album for Mary was either a misfire or lack of concern at Motown or a plan to have it not be a hit and then to drop her. Anyone who ever heard Mary Wilson knew she excelled on soul love ballads. You could throw in a few disco and rock tinged tunes for variety. I did like A Warm Summer Night and of the disco songs Midnight Dancer was better than the rest. Yes, Motown wanted to make money but they obviously only added Mary to the label to have her drop her lawsuit and then drop her after giving her an album of songs that were not her strong suit. Motown didn't do much for Scherrie Payne or Susaye Greene either. Both as solo could have excelled at Motown. Scherrie later had some chart action on some nondescript labels. Jean Terrell went to A&M, probably on the strength of her earlier Supremes hits but then she faded away because she wouldn't tour and didn't promote herself. A&M probably then saw why Motown didn't sign her or why she didn't stay in the group past 1973. I do see it as sexist that Motown and other labels only promote 1 female artist while having many men on their roster. Mary could have easily been Motown's female soul balladeer and successful with label support for her talent.
    ABC dropped Flo after her two singles went nowhere, which was the norm in the business. They signed her because they believed she had the goods to make it work, a much different situation than Mary was in.

    Gladys Knight was not a limited success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    it was an extremely crowded field and you needed something much more compelling to launch a solo career than this record.
    Yup. I played Mary's album today while exercising. It's still much better to me now than it was in the condition I originally had a copy, which was a rip of a vinyl someone gave to me. But one thing is clear to me in listening to the album: the songs just don't work for Mary. I listened to them with Ollie's question in mind, regarding what if Diana was singing these tunes. While most of the songs really are sort of mediocre, Diana had the type of voice that could turn them into something better. Mary didn't have that voice, not for this type of material.

    I once described Mary's voice as not really melodic. I know that's probably not the best description of what I was trying to say but I couldn't figure out another way of describing it. To me, Diana's voice was very melodic. It carries well over pleasant melodies, if that makes any sense. Mary's voice isn't really built that way. So the songs are mostly structured to fit a Diana type voice than a Mary type, with probably the exception of "Pick Up the Pieces", which I think if Diana had cut a version also, I'd probably prefer Mary's over Diana's.

    I also noticed that the songs probably could have benefitted from Mary singing in her upper register, which seems to be more melodious than her natural place. Maybe that would have made more of the songs work. I don't know. What I do know is that this album was not the collection of songs that was going to give Mary the start she needed as a solo.

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    Ran Ran--that's not how Gladys felt about it! In Darlene Love's book, she explained that Gladys felt that all she ever got at Motown were Diana's "sloppy seconds." That's why she left Motown. I wasn't saying no other females got hits--they did--but it was clear that only one got the big push!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Ran Ran--that's not how Gladys felt about it! In Darlene Love's book, she explained that Gladys felt that all she ever got at Motown were Diana's "sloppy seconds." That's why she left Motown. I wasn't saying no other females got hits--they did--but it was clear that only one got the big push!
    I know how Gladys says she felt, and who am I to say she didn't really feel that way back then? However, I'm certain that most of Gladys' cuts were never intended for Diana Ross. And further more, I don't think Gladys could ever seriously argue that she wasn't given prime material at Motown. Shit, she was recording better stuff than DRATS, on average. Motown screwed Gladys and the guys out of their money, like Motown did to most acts. I really believe that if Motown was paying the group what they were bringing in, they would not have jumped shipped because they were still current hit makers at Motown and were leaving for an "uncertain" future at Buddah. You only do that when the money aint right. Gladys Knight and the Pips discography at Motown is among the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    the highest statement that could possibly be made about the album is it's generic disco. and that's really given it some extra loving, to elevate it to that. of course it's great that some fans really enjoy it. Midnight is one of the stronger cuts but again, out of the mediocrity of the album, that's not high praise. the lyrics were pretty weak and it could easily have been a tune from some rompy teen disco movie trash, like Roller Disco High or the nonsense. at this point in disco, you'd had quite of bit of significant influence and new sounds. of course the Bee Gees and SNF made things explode in late 77 and through 78. KC and the Sunshine band made a huge imprint. Disco was also plagued with tons of one hit wonders and people rushing in to cash in on the trend.

    it was an extremely crowded field and you needed something much more compelling to launch a solo career than this record.
    It's funny you mention the weak lyrics, yet songs like "More More More" or "Got To Be Real" were HUGE and basically had NO lyrics, just the same three lines repeated over and over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I'd be interested in the answer to the question of just how many record labels were in operation in the US, particularly during the time we're talking about. I don't think I'm off the mark by suggesting there are hundreds, considering how many times I run across record labels I've never even heard of, yet they were recording and releasing some of my favorite stuff. If I had the time- and I don't- I'd go through the music on my laptop to see how many different labels are involved. That's a tedious task that might have been cool to do during 2020, but not now that life has picked back up. Lol
    Disco was HUGE with one hit wonders, all of whom got record deals. If Alicia Bridges could get a contract, no reason why a former Supreme couldn't. I agree with you 100%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Interesting idea, pairing Mary with another singer, particularly one with a high profile, which wasn't much to choose from at Motown at the time. I think Mary and Marvin would be the likeliest choice, but don't believe he'd be at all receptive to having another duet partner. Mary and Smokey's voices might have complimented one another the best. Her smokey alto and his high tenor could have made for a classic duet. This could have given Mary's album a boost.
    I havd scores of interviews and newspaper clippings from about this period and they all suggest Mary was going to record and tour with Marvin as "The Lady and the Gentleman".

    This may have been wishful thinking on Pedro's part. There may have been truth to it. I wasn't there so I don't know. Plus, by 1978/79/80, was MG in any shape to do ANYTHING?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rod_rick View Post
    Funny I was listening to some live stuff on youtube at work today and think most of these songs sound so much better live. I didn't mind the Beachwood 456789 especially in 1979 because we knew where it came but now it sounds really dated.
    As for the grunts and squeaks and what have you, the backing track is similar to a James Brown track recorded around the same time.
    What James brown track is that? I’d enjoy comparing them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I didn't realize it was released as a single?
    Yes it shared space with RED HOT on 12”
    and I believe as an a side to a 45.
    but even so no bites. However did Motown not care if it failed, what idiots there pressed it as a 12” at Three and a half minutes.
    a three minute disco song is pointless unless you’re aiming at radio play and programmers were resistant to playing even the better/best disco, never mind an invisible one having to be sought out, including even one by a legendary Supreme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I largely agree with this, except I would point out that Gladys Knight was a major hit maker at Motown during Diana's reign. Yes, she was also coupled with a group of guys, but I don't think the Pips made a difference in Motown's push of the group. For all of Gladys' complaints, valid and invalid any of them may have been, she was a household name almost from day one at Motown. Motown really didn't pull any expenses to make her and the Pips bigger stars, and I suspect that in reality, had the money not been an issue, Gladys and the guys would have been just fine remaining Motown artists, and might possibly have continued to have great success.
    while there's certainly ample opportunity to discuss which came first - the problems or the lack of promotion. but martha's personal problems certainly hindered her career. berry wasn't going to invest time, resources or money in an artist with significant drug and mental health issues. Now if the Vandellas had been strongly supported by the label like the Sups would she have had those issues? who knows

    that was also probably the complete and final nails on the coffin for Wanda too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    ABC dropped Flo after her two singles went nowhere, which was the norm in the business. They signed her because they believed she had the goods to make it work, a much different situation than Mary was in.

    Gladys Knight was not a limited success.
    there's been talk that it wasn't only the failed singles at ABC but problems with Tommy and Flo. a lot of high-end demands, Flo's moodiness and mental demons were probably still on hand. add to that the lack of interest in her music even in detroit and other key markets. anyone know about reviews to her shows and performances?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Yup. I played Mary's album today while exercising. It's still much better to me now than it was in the condition I originally had a copy, which was a rip of a vinyl someone gave to me. But one thing is clear to me in listening to the album: the songs just don't work for Mary. I listened to them with Ollie's question in mind, regarding what if Diana was singing these tunes. While most of the songs really are sort of mediocre, Diana had the type of voice that could turn them into something better. Mary didn't have that voice, not for this type of material.

    I once described Mary's voice as not really melodic. I know that's probably not the best description of what I was trying to say but I couldn't figure out another way of describing it. To me, Diana's voice was very melodic. It carries well over pleasant melodies, if that makes any sense. Mary's voice isn't really built that way. So the songs are mostly structured to fit a Diana type voice than a Mary type, with probably the exception of "Pick Up the Pieces", which I think if Diana had cut a version also, I'd probably prefer Mary's over Diana's.

    I also noticed that the songs probably could have benefitted from Mary singing in her upper register, which seems to be more melodious than her natural place. Maybe that would have made more of the songs work. I don't know. What I do know is that this album was not the collection of songs that was going to give Mary the start she needed as a solo.
    Great assessment!
    i’m so used to the album now, that I can’t be as objective about it. But, when it came out and 79, it was just dismissed as a nothing. A lot of the people I knew had no idea who she was And I think that’s why she had such a hard time getting gigs. But it all worked out I guess…… I know how much she wanted to have hit records and she knew she was talented at frustrated her that things aren’t going better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Ran Ran--that's not how Gladys felt about it! In Darlene Love's book, she explained that Gladys felt that all she ever got at Motown were Diana's "sloppy seconds." That's why she left Motown. I wasn't saying no other females got hits--they did--but it was clear that only one got the big push!
    i can understand her general POV on her motown years. and the fact that she was the sole No vote within the group for going there. she knew from Day 1 they'd always been Tier 2 artists.

    I will argue though that motown did find a very different approach to Gladys' singles. Clay McMurray crafted those amazing "soap opera soul" tunes that just worked perfectly for the group. there's no way those were ever crafted for or presented to Diana. now some of the album filler material could be sloppy seconds. i have most of their albums but rarely listen to them, except Standing Ovation which is just excellent. nothing on that lp sounds like a Diana Ross or a Supremes hand-me-down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I havd scores of interviews and newspaper clippings from about this period and they all suggest Mary was going to record and tour with Marvin as "The Lady and the Gentleman".

    This may have been wishful thinking on Pedro's part. There may have been truth to it. I wasn't there so I don't know. Plus, by 1978/79/80, was MG in any shape to do ANYTHING?
    i believe that ever word of that was concocted by Mary and/or Pedro. Bayou on here has said that while marvin might say something in passing along the lines of "hey maybe we should tour sometimes", it wasn't an actual plan or strategy. plus marvin was a hot mess at this time, heavy in drugs. imagine he and mary working their way through mountains of coke while touring! if nothing else it could have provided some outrageous stories!

    Miss Tony Turner would have had a field day!! lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i believe that ever word of that was concocted by Mary and/or Pedro. Bayou on here has said that while marvin might say something in passing along the lines of "hey maybe we should tour sometimes", it wasn't an actual plan or strategy. plus marvin was a hot mess at this time, heavy in drugs. imagine he and mary working their way through mountains of coke while touring! if nothing else it could have provided some outrageous stories!

    Miss Tony Turner would have had a field day!! lol
    Tony Tina Turner would have claimed to have been holding the mirror!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    there's been talk that it wasn't only the failed singles at ABC but problems with Tommy and Flo. a lot of high-end demands, Flo's moodiness and mental demons were probably still on hand. add to that the lack of interest in her music even in detroit and other key markets. anyone know about reviews to her shows and performances?
    Failed singles I think is objective. Did ABC do much to promote them? Did Gordy have his hand in getting them "blacklisted"? Did the ridiculousness of not being to mention she was a Supreme play into the demise? Again, her singles weren't masterpieces, but should have made SOME sort of splash. Enough to get a full LP out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Tony Tina Turner would have claimed to have been holding the mirror!
    haha cutting the lines for them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Failed singles I think is objective. Did ABC do much to promote them? Did Gordy have his hand in getting them "blacklisted"? Did the ridiculousness of not being to mention she was a Supreme play into the demise? Again, her singles weren't masterpieces, but should have made SOME sort of splash. Enough to get a full LP out.
    i think most historians presume that ABC signed Flo with the intent of having their own Supremes sound/act. that all 3 of the sups had that pop voice. and so they saddled her with all of those mediocre pop tunes, only adding a few more r&b ones like Love Ain't Love and Like You Babe. so it was practically a given that the music wouldn't really hit. plus this was 1968 and the Sups [[a very well established act) were running into problems keeping with youthful pop tunes going. Forever and Some Things were released through the first half of 68 and did nothing really either.

    so you have this perfect storm of Flo not be able to do any official promotion as a "former supreme", you have crap music, you have her pregnant, you have Gordy possibly pushing djs and radios NOT to play her stuff, you have flo's attitude problems, you have Tommy the halfwit trying to manager her career and demanding all sorts of stuff

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    Did Flo embrace singing, did she thirst music?
    Or did she Moreso enjoy the thrill of it , the glamor, the excitement , traveling, the applause, and was perfectly happy being five steps behind Diana Ross on stage.
    When it suddenly became 100% about her in every respect , I can imagine that being overwhelming, especially after being a kept and pampered performer within the Motown machine and while part of a larger inter-supportive act.

    When ABC asked her what she’d like to now sing , did she shrug her shoulders ?
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 08-16-2022 at 05:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    there's been talk that it wasn't only the failed singles at ABC but problems with Tommy and Flo. a lot of high-end demands, Flo's moodiness and mental demons were probably still on hand. add to that the lack of interest in her music even in detroit and other key markets. anyone know about reviews to her shows and performances?
    I think there's enough reflections from those present at the time to conclude with a fair amount of certainty that there was more to it than the failure of the singles. However, had the singles taken off and been major hits- one might be able to argue even if the singles had been mediocre hits- Flo's issues would not have necessarily gotten her the boot. I'm not sure ABC felt any kind of way about Flo having alcohol issues [[I'm betting half of the entertainers of the day had some kind of substance abuse issues), and I don't know what, if any, mental issues she may have presented while with the label. I also can't recall Tommy being all that problematic once he stopped operating as Flo's manager. That being said, Flo's pregnancy was probably the biggest issue. The timing was absolutely horrible. Imagine being pregnant and trying to put together a solo career. The recording, the traveling, the meet and greets. Morning sickness, aches and pains, fatigue, cravings. That poor lady had to be under a tremendous amount of stress, which might explain the twins' premature birth. I think the cancelled Latin Casino gig which caused the booking agency to drop her might have been the final nail in the ABC coffin. At that point Flo looks unreliable, regardless of the circumstances. I'm not sure how she scored the Nixon inaugural gig, but kudos to her for that. ABC didn't stop after one failed record, they gave Flo another one. When that one sank without a trace I can imagine ABC did what most other companies did in these situations: showed Flo the door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Great assessment!
    i’m so used to the album now, that I can’t be as objective about it. But, when it came out and 79, it was just dismissed as a nothing. A lot of the people I knew had no idea who she was And I think that’s why she had such a hard time getting gigs. But it all worked out I guess…… I know how much she wanted to have hit records and she knew she was talented at frustrated her that things aren’t going better.
    A singer could have the greatest voice in the world, but if the material isn't right and doesn't connect with the public, that's that. The potential GD album could have been the project that gave Mary the career boost she needed. Too bad Motown was so ready to be rid of Mary that they didn't just show her the door, they handed her the damn masters, which was practically unheard of, if it was ever done at Motown at all.

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