Patti LaBelle Addresses Drama With Diana Ross & The Supremes

[blackguy69]

saw this and had to post

[TheMotownManiac]

saw this and had to post

I think it’s funny that she blames/blamed Diana Ross for Cindy’s defection or the clothes. All three knew what they were doing, and, in Cindy’s case, and she could’ve been more upfront about it. Although I don’t believe the story as told because if they were rehearsing Cindy for months, either Patti wasn’t working at all during that time or they were working in the same city. Anyway it’s a great yarn thank you for posting!

[sup_fan]

fascinating interview but one that IMO is so swirled with pop music urban legends. the fact that someone off camera whispers "cindy" I would think the stealing of a group member would be significant enough to stay top of mind.

also i love that the Sups stole everyone's outfits - Martha Reeves, the Bluebelles lol. the Martha story seems to have been established in a lot of books. is Patti maybe blurring things? who would know. obviously i wasn't there. and if diana would steal martha's look, there's no reason to think she wouldn't steal patti's. now i will say that the Bluebelles tended to dress like milkmaids so i don't know about some "gold outfit" because every pic i've seen they're not in anything very sensational. would be a bit surprising to see a Supreme in anything i've seen a Bluebelle in. even in the early days lol

[Ollie9]

I see no reason to disbelieve Patti regarding the gold outfits, with Diana proving she would do almost anything to make herself and the Supremes look better.
Is Diana personally to blame for Cindy jumping ship?. Where did the idea first originate from?.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Patti obviously had to be reminded about things. To hold a grudge over clothes for 30 years? I don't think so, there is probably more to the story than that. It did always seem strange that Cindy was rehearsing and on standby for months with the Supremes, yet Patti & company had no idea she was jumping ship? Like someone said, obviously they must not have been working much. Diana chose Cindy because she remembered she resembled Florence and they had a nice interaction backstage. Marlene Barrow could not replace Flo because of family commitments and Diana did not care for Barbara Randolph. It is all old news and I think everyone's memory is a bit fuzzy after all these years. Important thing is that Patti is now on good terms with Diana and made amends with Cindy years ago.

[sup_fan]

I see no reason to disbelieve Patti regarding the gold outfits, with Diana proving she would do almost anything to make herself and the Supremes look better.
Is Diana personally to blame for Cindy jumping ship?. Where did the idea first originate from?.

not necessarily trying to say Patti is wrong. obviously she was there. but the Vandellas outfits were supposedly gold. and typically the Bluebelles were much more demure clothing. gold would be a bit "bold" of a color.

but to your point, Diana would do anything so is it possible she stole looks and outfits multiple times from multiple groups - certainly

it just rings almost verbatim to Martha's story. even the color of the outfits

[sup_fan]

the whole cindy issue is one we haven't talked about. yes we've recently discussed if, long-term, cindy would have been better in Labelle vs the Sups

but my question is more about the time in 67 and prior to then. i don't really follow the Bluebelles much so not sure of what they were doing, were they heavily performing in early 67? what releases or recording sessions had they had?

if Motown had approached, let's say, Nona - i don't think she would have done it. But Cindy seems to have pretty quickly agreed. she met with them well ahead of time, came out to detroit in april - all without a contract. so it's possible things could have not worked out. and now the Bluebelles know she slipped off to sing with another group. that's quite risky and I'd have to guess Cindy was comfortable with being out of the Bluebelles, regardless of if she did or did not become a Supreme.

i don't know if i'd venture to say she was disenfranchised with the Bluebelles but clearly she was willing to gamble it away

[reese]

the whole cindy issue is one we haven't talked about. yes we've recently discussed if, long-term, cindy would have been better in Labelle vs the Sups

but my question is more about the time in 67 and prior to then. i don't really follow the Bluebelles much so not sure of what they were doing, were they heavily performing in early 67? what releases or recording sessions had they had?

if Motown had approached, let's say, Nona - i don't think she would have done it. But Cindy seems to have pretty quickly agreed. she met with them well ahead of time, came out to detroit in april - all without a contract. so it's possible things could have not worked out. and now the Bluebelles know she slipped off to sing with another group. that's quite risky and I'd have to guess Cindy was comfortable with being out of the Bluebelles, regardless of if she did or did not become a Supreme.

i don't know if i'd venture to say she was disenfranchised with the Bluebelles but clearly she was willing to gamble it away

From 1962-1969, the Bluebelles recorded for Newton, Cameo/Parkway, and Atlantic. Their biggest hit, I SOLD MY HEART TO THE JUNKMAN, wasn't even them but was actually done by the Starlets. They didn't have many hits besides DOWN THE AISLE and YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE but Patti says they worked a lot, even though she says it was for "peanuts." They were booked by William Morris and the Queen Booking Agency. They must have had a good reputation. I mean, I doubt they would have been on Murray the K's ITS WHAT'S HAPPENING BABY special if they didn't.

I believe the costumes story. Some of the details have probably been forgotten or exaggerated over the years. But one has to remember that these were teenage girls. Isn't that the sort of thing some girls do at that age? Scope out the competition and try to show them up? But like someone else wrote, Mary and Flo knew the score as well. So why single out Diana as the culprit?

On the subject of their costumes, one of my uncles had a great memory of seeing the Bluebelles at the Apollo wearing leopard skin outfits. He said they were hot!

Re Cindy's leaving, in one interview, Patti says that Cindy wasn't pleased with the progress the Bluebelles were making and wanted to better her life. Although I've seen it written in a few books, I find it hard to believe that Cindy was in training for months before actually leaving. The Bluebelles had their own schedule to contend with. More than likely, Cindy got the call to come to Detroit, did the Hollywood Bowl show, and she was gone. It probably took months for Gordy to get her out of her contract with Atlantic and their managers, the Montagues.

Cindy didn't talk with the Bluebelles again until a year later.

[RanRan79]

I believe the "stolen" outfits stories. Diana was crafty like that. Seems out of character for Flo and Mary though, so I'm inclined to believe this was indeed all Diana, especially considering the story as relayed in CHMR by Florence about the Martha situation. Flo claims to not have known until they were off stage. The only questionable part for me is what did Diana do? Did she ask the Bluebelles where they got the outfits and then ran out and got identical ones? While the two groups obviously crossed paths on the tour circuit, probably often, were they ever in the same place long enough for the two groups to shop in the same store, picking up the same outfits? Also, isn't it possible that the Supremes just coincidentally had the same outfits the Bluebelles had and happened to coincidentally decide to wear theirs on the same night the Bluebelles were wearing theirs? Whatever the case, it does seem like normal young ladies stuff. I'm just glad Patti told the story this time without saying stuff like she would have beaten Diana up. I don't know why people think skinny girls can't fight. Seen enough fights in my time to know not to underestimate a skinny chick. Seen some stick figures whoop the shit out of some big girls a few times. [[Not to say Patti was "big", but certainly bigger than Diana, physically.)

Someone does need to tell Patti to stop with the Diana stole Cindy crap. Diana did not have the power to hire or fire anyone, though she certainly could make suggestions. Berry Gordy decided Cindy was it and that was that.

[reese]

I believe the "stolen" outfits stories. Diana was crafty like that. Seems out of character for Flo and Mary though, so I'm inclined to believe this was indeed all Diana, especially considering the story as relayed in CHMR by Florence about the Martha situation. Flo claims to not have known until they were off stage. The only questionable part for me is what did Diana do? Did she ask the Bluebelles where they got the outfits and then ran out and got identical ones? While the two groups obviously crossed paths on the tour circuit, probably often, were they ever in the same place long enough for the two groups to shop in the same store, picking up the same outfits? Also, isn't it possible that the Supremes just coincidentally had the same outfits the Bluebelles had and happened to coincidentally decide to wear theirs on the same night the Bluebelles were wearing theirs? Whatever the case, it does seem like normal young ladies stuff. I'm just glad Patti told the story this time without saying stuff like she would have beaten Diana up. I don't know why people think skinny girls can't fight. Seen enough fights in my time to know not to underestimate a skinny chick. Seen some stick figures whoop the shit out of some big girls a few times. [[Not to say Patti was "big", but certainly bigger than Diana, physically.)

Someone does need to tell Patti to stop with the Diana stole Cindy crap. Diana did not have the power to hire or fire anyone, though she certainly could make suggestions. Berry Gordy decided Cindy was it and that was that.

In an 80s article, Patti mentioned that sometimes the Bluebelles would get to a gig and find out that another group on the bill, like the Vandellas, had the same outfit. So they would have to distinguish themselves by maybe putting on a tiara or a boa or something like that.

I still think that Mary and Flo should get some of the blame. I mean, they were probably standing in the wings also watching what the other girls had on. So even if Diana actually was the one that went out and bought similar oufits, they still could have refused.

In any event, it is nice to see that Diana and Patti are cool now. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during their conversations.

Patti: "Heifer, you know you copied our costumes!"
Diana: "Yeah, I did. We didn't have any hits but at least we could look good!"

[Albator]

We have to think about Paul McCartney complaining because Mick Jagger copied his hair cut, Freddy Mercury because Elton John wasn't the first to perform with platform shoes, or because ????? what else.

Those poor girls are ridiculous and Diana Ross isn't complaining because about ALL those performers stole something to the Supremes, one day or another.

[RanRan79]

Patti: "Heifer, you know you copied our costumes!"
Diana: "Yeah, I did. We didn't have any hits but at least we could look good!"

Patti: "Heifer, you know you copied our costumes!"
Diana: "Yeah, I did. Too bad y'all couldn't copy our list of number one hits."

Too mean?

[RanRan79]

We have to think about Paul McCartney complaining because Mick Jagger copied his hair cut, Freddy Mercury because Elton John wasn't the first to perform with platform shoes, or because ????? what else.

Those poor girls are ridiculous and Diana Ross isn't complaining because about ALL those performers stole something to the Supremes, one day or another.

Why do we have to think about those things? They are hardly the same thing as what Patti alleges.

There is nothing the Bluebelles/Labelle had in common with the Supremes other than their race, gender and the type of music they sang. If anything the Supremes "stole" Cindy from the Bluebelles. These grown women are grandmothers now and are hardly complaining about some 1960s bullshit.

[sup_fan]

i'll keep stirring the pot lol

the story of martha vs diana and the stolen gowns has been told again and again. in multiple books by multiple authors. and it's been floating around for years.

i've heard Patti in a few interviews [[all post the Oprah legends event) talking about how in the past her relationship with Diana was strained. when asked why, what i've heard before was how she was snooty and would ignore them in the hall or things like that. this is the first i've heard about diana and the outfits, and it is just a Xerox copy of the martha story.

but on the flip side, yes i do think there could be the typical teen girl angst going on. Martha mentions that when her group would be an bills with multiple artists, the unspoken rule was to say "ok we both have gold dresses - so you wear yours on this show and we'll wear ours on the next one" or something. none of the groups at this time would have had a wardrobe mistress with trunks of costumes so they'd have to work it out.

on a broader question, how often did the Supremes go out on tours outside of the Motown Revue? i could easily understand little local Detroit dates being lost to time - the girls might have been booked at a VFW hall sometime in 1961 and no one has any record of that.

but to send the Supremes out to the Apollo, the Howard or the Regal in Chicago, those would be larger dates IMO and more likely to be noted. the girls just didn't appear very often at these during 63 - 65. and after the Copa they really were rarely part of a big group package.

[sup_fan]

looks like the first "big" show the girls did was with the Motown Revue at the Apollo in Deb 62

Jan 63 - Howard in DC
Jan 64 - Howard
Sept 64 - Fox in Brooklyn [[Murray the K show)
March 65 - Apollo
Aug 65 - another Murray the K show in NYC

after that it's pretty much they're the headliners and not on packaged tours. they might do a few dates here and there with a broader motown number of acts [[like in Atlanta to raise funds after MLK died), the Astrodome with Judy Garland, the Hollywood Bowl show with Cindy's debut. but also by this time they had their own designer and high-end gowns. so i don't think Diana was stealing much anymore lol

[RanRan79]

There were "tons" of venues on the so called Chitlin Circuit that did not include the more prestigious theaters like the Howard, Regal or Apollo. The Supremes performed outside of Detroit often once the girls were free from school. Remember, once school was over, they were attempting to make a living at this. Sometimes they indeed went out on larger Motown tours. Probably more often than not- because it seems like a tour like the Motown Revue would be a huge financial undertaking if it was a constant thing- the girls went out on the road to booked dates alone. That's what the Bluebelles did, and I imagine most other groups like the Supremes and the Bluebelles. It wasn't always tour busses, mostly just someone's car and hitting the road. The Supremes and Bluebelles would have likely frequently played a lot of the same venues across the Midwest, south and east, crossing paths with tons of other up and comers and established acts.

[RanRan79]

I've heard Patti tell the dress story multiple times. I find it hard to believe that Patti heard Martha's story and then usurped it for herself. I can't remember if Patti wrote about it in her book. It's been eons since I've read it.

I think Patti's conversation with Oprah about her relationship with Diana is probably the most revealing, where Patti chalked it up to people running between the two women and starting shit. A lot of he said/she said. And as usual, rather than communicate with each other, things festered. Not knowing either of these women personally, I'd venture that the animosity was mostly on Patti's side. Not that Diana was incapable of holding a grudge or having an issue with someone. She's as human as any of us. But even though the infamous mic toss at Motown Returns to the Apollo has been used to slight Diana, if you watch the performance of everyone gathered together for "I Want To Know What Love Is", Diana beckons Patti to come take the mic. As Patti moves toward her, Diana playfully backs away like "No way Patti", but then hands the mic over. Apparently there were things written in the press that Diana looked as if she had been slapped, but as Patti sings, Diana looks as impressed as everyone else in the room. I just don't think Diana would have [[a) called Patti over to take the mic, and [[b) been so playful with her if she was holding a grudge about what people may have been telling her Patti said about her.

Now the comment about Patti eating her eyelash on Arsenio is a little iffy. But then a few years later Diana is wiping tears from her eyes as Patti sings a tribute to her. And then after 9/11, Diana and Patti are photographed hugging and sitting together holding hands at the charity recording of whatever they were singing. There was even a write up about Patti not being in the room when it was time to sing and Diana was the one who went looking for her and brought her back. So I'm sure there was probably was little nasty this or that way back in the day, maybe even from both sides, but some of the facts don't line up with what's been said, particularly when you account for Patti claiming it was the Legend's Ball that she spoke to Diana since the 60s. That's just not true.

I think a lot of times because so much has gone on in these folks lives [[they obviously have lived more eventful and detail packed lives than the average person) a lot of the details get blurred and merge or blurred and embellished. It's not that any of them are liars, but it's hard to keep all those goings on straight.

[reese]

Patti: "Heifer, you know you copied our costumes!"
Diana: "Yeah, I did. Too bad y'all couldn't copy our list of number one hits."

Too mean?

Ha Ha! Yeah, too mean.

[reese]

i'll keep stirring the pot lol

the story of martha vs diana and the stolen gowns has been told again and again. in multiple books by multiple authors. and it's been floating around for years.

i've heard Patti in a few interviews [[all post the Oprah legends event) talking about how in the past her relationship with Diana was strained. when asked why, what i've heard before was how she was snooty and would ignore them in the hall or things like that. this is the first i've heard about diana and the outfits, and it is just a Xerox copy of the martha story.

but on the flip side, yes i do think there could be the typical teen girl angst going on. Martha mentions that when her group would be an bills with multiple artists, the unspoken rule was to say "ok we both have gold dresses - so you wear yours on this show and we'll wear ours on the next one" or something. none of the groups at this time would have had a wardrobe mistress with trunks of costumes so they'd have to work it out.

on a broader question, how often did the Supremes go out on tours outside of the Motown Revue? i could easily understand little local Detroit dates being lost to time - the girls might have been booked at a VFW hall sometime in 1961 and no one has any record of that.

but to send the Supremes out to the Apollo, the Howard or the Regal in Chicago, those would be larger dates IMO and more likely to be noted. the girls just didn't appear very often at these during 63 - 65. and after the Copa they really were rarely part of a big group package.

I think they did more dates than people realize, and not just with the Motown Revue.

I've seen photos of them onstage at the Apollo with Lloyd Price and Erma Franklin. Diana has mentioned being on bills with Otis Redding and how much her mother loved him. In the book WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO, a Motown promotion man said how before they were popular, Motown would send the Supremes out on dates out of town to pacify djs. He mentioned how he would have a room and the girls would have to share. Diana would end up talking him out of his room. :-) They even did an engagement in Bermuda before the Dick Clark Caravan of Stars.

[Boogiedown]

Very enjoyable . Sharp as a tack

yet it genuinely seems she’d completely forgotten about Cindy Birdsong going to The Supremes. She seemed shocked by the forgotten memory.

Listening to Patti speak, I hear Michael Jackson.

[reese]

I've heard Patti tell the dress story multiple times. I find it hard to believe that Patti heard Martha's story and then usurped it for herself. I can't remember if Patti wrote about it in her book. It's been eons since I've read it.

I think Patti's conversation with Oprah about her relationship with Diana is probably the most revealing, where Patti chalked it up to people running between the two women and starting shit. A lot of he said/she said. And as usual, rather than communicate with each other, things festered. Not knowing either of these women personally, I'd venture that the animosity was mostly on Patti's side. Not that Diana was incapable of holding a grudge or having an issue with someone. She's as human as any of us. But even though the infamous mic toss at Motown Returns to the Apollo has been used to slight Diana, if you watch the performance of everyone gathered together for "I Want To Know What Love Is", Diana beckons Patti to come take the mic. As Patti moves toward her, Diana playfully backs away like "No way Patti", but then hands the mic over. Apparently there were things written in the press that Diana looked as if she had been slapped, but as Patti sings, Diana looks as impressed as everyone else in the room. I just don't think Diana would have [[a) called Patti over to take the mic, and [[b) been so playful with her if she was holding a grudge about what people may have been telling her Patti said about her.

Now the comment about Patti eating her eyelash on Arsenio is a little iffy. But then a few years later Diana is wiping tears from her eyes as Patti sings a tribute to her. And then after 9/11, Diana and Patti are photographed hugging and sitting together holding hands at the charity recording of whatever they were singing. There was even a write up about Patti not being in the room when it was time to sing and Diana was the one who went looking for her and brought her back. So I'm sure there was probably was little nasty this or that way back in the day, maybe even from both sides, but some of the facts don't line up with what's been said, particularly when you account for Patti claiming it was the Legend's Ball that she spoke to Diana since the 60s. That's just not true.

I think a lot of times because so much has gone on in these folks lives [[they obviously have lived more eventful and detail packed lives than the average person) a lot of the details get blurred and merge or blurred and embellished. It's not that any of them are liars, but it's hard to keep all those goings on straight.

Patti did write about the dress stuff with Diana in her book. But going back to the teenage girls things, she also mentioned how the Bluebelles and the Shirelles were like oil and water, even getting into at least one physical fight.

As much as I love Patti, sometimes she feeds the fire and plays the room with her comments. I concur with your description of the pass the mic moments at the Apollo. But I've read interviews where Patti says nothing happened but then in another, says that Diana gave the mike, took it back, and it was like taking away her "lollipop."

When Diana was going through her issues, Nile Rogers threw a party for her. She didn't attend but spoke via telephone. Patti attended and sang GOD BLESS THE CHILD in her honor and said they needed to support her.

[luke]

There used to be a video on YouTube channel where Patti was performing at an outdoor concert and went off about RTL tour not including Cindy and Mary...saying she would include original members of her group if they did a reunion tour.

[marybrewster]

I tend to over analyze everything:

So the story goes that Diana saw the Vandellas, or the Bluebelles, in gold outfits, and not to be outdone, she goes and purchases a set for the Supremes to wear first, to upstage the other group. Right so far?

So here's my question: what year was this? 1962? 1963? So Diana was 18 or 19 at the time? And here's a girl, fresh from the projects that goes into her pocketbook and pulls out enough cash to buy not just one outfit, but three? What was that? $100? $200? Meanwhile everyone is cooking hotdogs on the lamps backstage because they don't have two nickels to rub together?

[marybrewster]

And in other news, didn't Patti once perform a Diana song at a tribute to her?

[milven]

And in other news, didn't Patti once perform a Diana song at a tribute to her?

[reese]

I tend to over analyze everything:

So the story goes that Diana saw the Vandellas, or the Bluebelles, in gold outfits, and not to be outdone, she goes and purchases a set for the Supremes to wear first, to upstage the other group. Right so far?

So here's my question: what year was this? 1962? 1963? So Diana was 18 or 19 at the time? And here's a girl, fresh from the projects that goes into her pocketbook and pulls out enough cash to buy not just one outfit, but three? What was that? $100? $200? Meanwhile everyone is cooking hotdogs on the lamps backstage because they don't have two nickels to rub together?

In her book, Martha says that while they were sharing a bill at the Brooklyn Paramount in 1964, the Vandellas wear wearing metallic black sort of spandex outfits. Before one performance, the stage manager told the Vandellas that they might have to go on early if the Supremes weren't back in time for their spot. While the Vandellas were waiting in the wings, the Supremes strutted past them wearing a similar outfit, only in silver.

In CALL HER MISS ROSS, J. Randy wrote that Diana purchased similar outfits to the Vandellas with money she begged from Berry. He also places the incident as occurring at the Howard Theater circa 1963.

In her book, Patti doesn't give a year but I assume it was pre-1964 as the Supremes came on before the Bluebelles. She wrote that before shows, Diana used to come in their dressing room to see what they were wearing. The next thing she knew, the Supremes were wearing something similar. After the second or third time it happened, Patti decided to have a chat with Diana and basically told her if she was smart, she wouldn't come in their dressing room again.

[theboyfromxtown]

There is a limited run for a theatre production in London "Labelle the Musical" coming up in October 2022. Patti doesn't seem to want to tour Europe - even when she had top ten hit in a duet with Michael McDonald. I suspect this is the best Europe will ever get. https://www.eventim.co.uk/event/labe...ught-15227247/

[reese]

There is a limited run for a theatre production in London "Labelle the Musical" coming up in October 2022. Patti doesn't seem to want to tour Europe - even when she had top ten hit in a duet with Michael McDonald. I suspect this is the best Europe will ever get. https://www.eventim.co.uk/event/labe...ught-15227247/

In post #36, there is info from Vicki Wickham concerning this musical.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...musical-London

[theboyfromxtown]

In post #36, there is info from Vicki Wickham concerning this musical.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...musical-London

Wow thank you Reese. I didn't see that post until you pointed it out. It now makes sense to me why it wasn't being talked about by the people that I normally expect to promote these shows. Shame.

Nevertheless, I don't suppose any of those people who do have the rights will be doing something similar except continue to rant that someone else is doing it.

Thanks for that info Reese, on reflection, I am going to buy a ticket.

[RanRan79]

I tend to over analyze everything:

So the story goes that Diana saw the Vandellas, or the Bluebelles, in gold outfits, and not to be outdone, she goes and purchases a set for the Supremes to wear first, to upstage the other group. Right so far?

So here's my question: what year was this? 1962? 1963? So Diana was 18 or 19 at the time? And here's a girl, fresh from the projects that goes into her pocketbook and pulls out enough cash to buy not just one outfit, but three? What was that? $100? $200? Meanwhile everyone is cooking hotdogs on the lamps backstage because they don't have two nickels to rub together?

I'm thinking the places the girl groups like the Supremes and Bluebelles were shopping in the early days weren't the kinds of places that sold dresses for hundreds of dollars. Probably 10, 15 bucks, if that.

[sup_fan]

the Martha story goes that Diana called Gordy begging for money so the girls could get new dresses. just like a teenage would beg mom and dad.

many of their early outfits were homemade. Seems Diana and Mary handled the majority of this. they would select patterns and fabric. i believe they mentioned that Mrs Ross would also help. of course diana had studied fashion at Cass and had taken many courses in sewing and all so she was quite adept at it.

[sup_fan]

odds are they would have gone to stores like Woolworths and inexpensive dress shops or small dept stores like this. Hudson's was the big fancy Detroit department store and that would have been far too expensive, except perhaps in the basement level where often these big old dept stores would have their clearance sales departments.

Mary mentions in Dreamgirl when they bought those long black sleeveless sheaths, as pictured on the back of More Hits. and how they felt so grown up and elegant.

[RanRan79]

Wow thank you Reese. I didn't see that post until you pointed it out. It now makes sense to me why it wasn't being talked about by the people that I normally expect to promote these shows. Shame.

Nevertheless, I don't suppose any of those people who do have the rights will be doing something similar except continue to rant that someone else is doing it.

Thanks for that info Reese, on reflection, I am going to buy a ticket.

I could never support something where the person behind it was so hellbent on cashing in on someone else's legacy that they would completely disregard the feelings of that someone. As private "nobody" citizens, it's easy for us to sit back and shrug our shoulders because there's little to no chance that someone will take our life story- either in part or in full- and turn it into a show or movie. Certainly not in our lifetime. Hell most of us, if not all of us, here in the forum would shit blood and bricks if someone doxxed us and posted true or false information in this forum alone. I know I sure the hell would. So it makes me cringe to think of how Labelle is feeling about someone just up and deciding they're going to take part of their life and turn it into a show and not even call the ladies up and get their permission or input.

That being said, your comment about them not doing something similar has to lead to the question of wouldn't this be the perfect time for the ladies themselves to put together their own show, hopefully with Broadway in sight? Two competing shows, one with Labelle's stamp of approval and one without, should be an easy battle to win, I would think.

[theboyfromxtown]

I could never support something where the person behind it was so hellbent on cashing in on someone else's legacy that they would completely disregard the feelings of that someone. As private "nobody" citizens, it's easy for us to sit back and shrug our shoulders because there's little to no chance that someone will take our life story- either in part or in full- and turn it into a show or movie. Certainly not in our lifetime. Hell most of us, if not all of us, here in the forum would shit blood and bricks if someone doxxed us and posted true or false information in this forum alone. I know I sure the hell would. So it makes me cringe to think of how Labelle is feeling about someone just up and deciding they're going to take part of their life and turn it into a show and not even call the ladies up and get their permission or input.

That being said, your comment about them not doing something similar has to lead to the question of wouldn't this be the perfect time for the ladies themselves to put together their own show, hopefully with Broadway in sight? Two competing shows, one with Labelle's stamp of approval and one without, should be an easy battle to win, I would think.

You have a very valid point and I know that Marv2 who was a big Patti fan would have supported you wholeheartedly. However, as it stands at the moment, there's little chance of a competing show happening in the UK.

In direct contrast, I flatly refused to attend any of the Motown shows that don't feature the original Motown artists for the reasons you explained. Even the show that Mr Gordy had at the helm. So I fully understand where you are coming from.

[captainjames]

Old news -------
Actually Patti did an interview in 1986 where she says everyone did the same thing as far as going to the dressing room to see what everyone was wearing but that all the girl groups went to the same department so they would end up wearing similar outfits. She says no one was copying off anyone intentionally. As far as going on stage first both groups wanted to go first which tells me neither group had any big hits or they would have been the headliner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPDQsl0SSOk

[Ollie9]

She says no one was copying off anyone intentionally.

Try telling that to M’s Martha Reeves.

[captainjames]

Try telling that to M’s Martha Reeves.

Not me......I am not telling Martha anything !!! I just think this interview leans more to the truth. Same stores and everyone looking to see what the other group was wearing. Again, this is all high school crap and to drag it around for fifty plus years means someone has not grown up yet. That's all I am saying.

[Ollie9]

Not me......I am not telling Martha anything !!! I just think this interview leans more to the truth. Same stores and everyone looking to see what the other group was wearing. Again, this is all high school crap and to drag it around for fifty plus years means someone has not grown up yet. That's all I am saying.

Wise man lol.
I’m sure most of the female acts had a nose around to catch what the other groups were wearing. As far as i’m aware, Diana is the only one who went that extra mile.
I don’t think it’s something that Martha, Patti or whoever have been carrying around. It’s just something their happy to share if particularly asked. Much the same way Flo or Mary would if they were still with us.

[RanRan79]

Wise man lol.
I’m sure most of the female acts had a nose around to catch what the other groups were wearing. As far as i’m aware, Diana is the only one who went that extra mile.
I don’t think it’s something that Martha, Patti or whoever have been carrying around. It’s just something their happy to share if particularly asked. Much the same way Flo or Mary would if they were still with us.

Yeah, I don't understand the accusation that gets flung at people who recall memories of the past that don't speak on Diana's work ethic or talent. Diana has a reputation and I still believe that it was well deserved. Some interviewers care about old drama and bring it up. Patti didn't offer this, she was asked. I don't think her maturity should be called into question because she relayed a 60 year old memory. Had she attempted to paint Diana as that same girl from all those years ago, that's different. But she didn't.

Like I said, Diana was always a crafty young lady, looking for anyway to get ahead. While underhandedness should never be rewarded or praised, the fact that she was so young just speaks to her immaturity back in the day, something we all have in common until we grow up. She surely wasn't the only one. She might have been the only one to cross the unwritten "we all have the same gown but we don't wear them at the same time" rule, but certainly other young ladies in the music sphere were doing other things to give themselves a leg up. And quiet as it's kept, so were many of the guys.

I think the "old timers" tell these stories for what they are. It's the same approach our elders take when recalling old memories at the dinner table or in the living room. It's history but it's worth knowing. Only us fans seem to take offense to these kinds of memories. I think it adds to the Diana Ross story, makes her normal.

[TNSUN]

Ask yourself as a popular music fan, If Patti LaBelle had been asked to join The Supremes, would she have flown away from the Blue Bells?
Any female singer at the time would have immediately joined The Supremes, as they were the top selling female group in the world!
The Supremes were the second most popular group, at the time, behind The Beatles.

Was Lola Folana ever considered as a replacement for Diana Ross of The Supremes?

[RanRan79]

Ask yourself as a popular music fan, If Patti LaBelle had been asked to join The Supremes, would she have flown away from the Blue Bells?
Any female singer at the time would have immediately joined The Supremes, as they were the top selling female group in the world!
The Supremes were the second most popular group, at the time, behind The Beatles.

Was Lola Folana ever considered as a replacement for Diana Ross of The Supremes?

As Patti would say: "Heck no!"

Why would she leave the group she heads up to sing backup in another group? I know the popular thing to do is assume that everybody everywhere would have jumped at any chance to make more money, but that just isn't true. I'm guessing Cindy jumping ship made sense to her, financially. If she was already a backing vocalist in one group for a penny, why not join another group as a backing vocalist for three pennies? Patti making that same decision makes no sense. Would Patti have taken the leap to replace Diana? Doubt that too. I suspect that Patti thought her group was the best, regardless of how many hits or lack of hits any of them had. She probably had loyalty to Nona and Sarah.

Flo subbed for Wanda for a tour. Had she been offered a permanent spot would she have dumped Diana and Mary since the Marvelettes were clearly dusting the Supremes in fame and money at that time? I don't think so, because Flo stated for the record that she thought the Supremes were the best group out there. Patti believed in her group, just like Flo, Diana and Mary believed in theirs. Chasing the money and fame to another group seems out of character for the Supremes and most of the Bluebelles.

Joining the Supremes after they took the world by storm was about a lot more than the group's success. There was a ton of other stuff to consider. And there were tons of female singers out there who believed they could do as good or better than the Supremes on their own.

[Ollie9]

As Patti would say: "Heck no!"

Why would she leave the group she heads up to sing backup in another group? I know the popular thing to do is assume that everybody everywhere would have jumped at any chance to make more money, but that just isn't true. I'm guessing Cindy jumping ship made sense to her, financially. If she was already a backing vocalist in one group for a penny, why not join another group as a backing vocalist for three pennies? Patti making that same decision makes no sense. Would Patti have taken the leap to replace Diana? Doubt that too. I suspect that Patti thought her group was the best, regardless of how many hits or lack of hits any of them had. She probably had loyalty to Nona and Sarah.

Flo subbed for Wanda for a tour. Had she been offered a permanent spot would she have dumped Diana and Mary since the Marvelettes were clearly dusting the Supremes in fame and money at that time? I don't think so, because Flo stated for the record that she thought the Supremes were the best group out there. Patti believed in her group, just like Flo, Diana and Mary believed in theirs. Chasing the money and fame to another group seems out of character for the Supremes and most of the Bluebelles.

Joining the Supremes after they took the world by storm was about a lot more than the group's success. There was a ton of other stuff to consider. And there were tons of female singers out there who believed they could do as good or better than the Supremes on their own.

Insightful post Ran.

[sup_fan]

As Patti would say: "Heck no!"

Why would she leave the group she heads up to sing backup in another group? I know the popular thing to do is assume that everybody everywhere would have jumped at any chance to make more money, but that just isn't true. I'm guessing Cindy jumping ship made sense to her, financially. If she was already a backing vocalist in one group for a penny, why not join another group as a backing vocalist for three pennies? Patti making that same decision makes no sense. Would Patti have taken the leap to replace Diana? Doubt that too. I suspect that Patti thought her group was the best, regardless of how many hits or lack of hits any of them had. She probably had loyalty to Nona and Sarah.

Flo subbed for Wanda for a tour. Had she been offered a permanent spot would she have dumped Diana and Mary since the Marvelettes were clearly dusting the Supremes in fame and money at that time? I don't think so, because Flo stated for the record that she thought the Supremes were the best group out there. Patti believed in her group, just like Flo, Diana and Mary believed in theirs. Chasing the money and fame to another group seems out of character for the Supremes and most of the Bluebelles.

Joining the Supremes after they took the world by storm was about a lot more than the group's success. There was a ton of other stuff to consider. And there were tons of female singers out there who believed they could do as good or better than the Supremes on their own.

yes and no

Flo subbed in the M's because 1) she was a soprano and 2) dating the manager. the M's act was a high-energy act. i'm pretty sure no one on any side of the equation ever wanted flo as a permanent member. That would be like asking one of the FourTops to be a Contour. totally different style of act. Flo went out on the road to fulfill a contractual obligation

as for my disagreement with your assessment, there were tons of members at Motown that actively dumped their old, less successful groups and went off to join the bigger ones. Betty Kelly left the Velvettes to join MRATV. As did Sandra Tilley. Richard Street left the Monitors for the Temps and Dennis Edwards left the Contours for the Temps.

i wonder if other Motowners could have been considered? I know Berry attempted to introduce Barbara Randolph into the act, that went nowhere with Diana. But could one of the other members of the Velvelettes been considered? could Sandra have joined the Sups instead of the Vandellas? Or if Tammi Terrell had NOT started her duet fame with marvin would she have been a candidate? she had released two minor singles but nothing came of them.

[reese]

i wonder if other Motowners could have been considered? I know Berry attempted to introduce Barbara Randolph into the act, that went nowhere with Diana. But could one of the other members of the Velvelettes been considered? could Sandra have joined the Sups instead of the Vandellas? Or if Tammi Terrell had NOT started her duet fame with marvin would she have been a candidate? she had released two minor singles but nothing came of them.

In Susan Whitall's book WOMEN OF MOTOWN: AN ORAL HISTORY, Norma Barbee of the Velvelettes mentioned that she went on an interview for Flo's spot. But she didn't think she would get the job because she didn't get along with Diana. She also mentioned that they offered her a flat salary that was very minimal.

Martha Reeves mentioned that Sandra Tilley had some vocal affliction due to a growth underneath her chin. But she overlooked her slightly hoarse voice because of her natural beauty and grace.

I think Tammi's voice might have been a bit too similar to Diana's to make her a good candidate.

[RanRan79]

yes and no

Flo subbed in the M's because 1) she was a soprano and 2) dating the manager. the M's act was a high-energy act. i'm pretty sure no one on any side of the equation ever wanted flo as a permanent member. That would be like asking one of the FourTops to be a Contour. totally different style of act. Flo went out on the road to fulfill a contractual obligation

as for my disagreement with your assessment, there were tons of members at Motown that actively dumped their old, less successful groups and went off to join the bigger ones. Betty Kelly left the Velvettes to join MRATV. As did Sandra Tilley. Richard Street left the Monitors for the Temps and Dennis Edwards left the Contours for the Temps.

i wonder if other Motowners could have been considered? I know Berry attempted to introduce Barbara Randolph into the act, that went nowhere with Diana. But could one of the other members of the Velvelettes been considered? could Sandra have joined the Sups instead of the Vandellas? Or if Tammi Terrell had NOT started her duet fame with marvin would she have been a candidate? she had released two minor singles but nothing came of them.

Oh Supy. The question wasn't why Flo was asked to sub for Wanda, but what would she have done if she had been asked to permanently replace her. I find it hard to believe she would have ditched Diana and Mary to become a Marvelette.

As for members leaving groups for other groups, I was never arguing that it didn't happen. Of course it did. Nor was I arguing that there were no female singers in other groups who would have jumped at the chance to be a Supreme. I am, however, arguing against the feeling that all the girls wanted to be a Supreme, and in particular someone like Patti Labelle. I don't think either Sarah or Nona would have jumped ship. Betty left the Velvelettes for the Vandellas, but would Cal have left her group to join the Supremes? I think by the time Sandra joined the Vandellas, the Velvelettes were done.

There were tons of female artists who believed in their groups and their own individual talents. They may have admired the Supremes, enjoyed their music, even emulated them in some way, but had no interest in abandoning their own shot to jump into what I'm sure many already knew through the grapevine, which was that the Supremes were a powder keg of drama, especially with Diana in the mix, someone a lot of the girls had already seen in action over the years and wouldn't have wanted any part of that crazy.

[RanRan79]

Regarding Barbara Randolph, I wonder how true it is that Gordy considered her for the Supremes. Didn't they have something going on? Maybe Gordy used a possible replacement in the group as a way to get with Barbara. Or maybe the Supremes were never in the mix. I know there's a story written that Gordy tried to introduce Barbara to Diana, supposedly because he wanted BR to join the group, but Diana pitched a fit and wouldn't meet her. Maybe Gordy was throwing Barbara in Diana's face. He was not the nicest boyfriend, if the stories are to be believed.

That being said, I'm not a fan of Barbara's voice, but it just doesn't sound like she'd be able to sing much beyond Mary in terms of the harmony. Cindy worked because, while she wasn't the same kind of singer Florence was, she was a soprano and the soprano balanced well with Mary's alto. Barbara sounds like an alto to me. I do believe Flo's natural singing voice wasn't nearly as high as she was obviously capable of singing, but of the little bit of Barbara's voice I've heard, I'd be shocked if she could sing the soprano part in the act. With the absence of evidence to support her being able to sing the soprano part- and sing it well- I'm inclined to believe she was never a candidate for the soprano singer in the Supremes.

[sup_fan]

Oh Supy. The question wasn't why Flo was asked to sub for Wanda, but what would she have done if she had been asked to permanently replace her. I find it hard to believe she would have ditched Diana and Mary to become a Marvelette.

As for members leaving groups for other groups, I was never arguing that it didn't happen. Of course it did. Nor was I arguing that there were no female singers in other groups who would have jumped at the chance to be a Supreme. I am, however, arguing against the feeling that all the girls wanted to be a Supreme, and in particular someone like Patti Labelle. I don't think either Sarah or Nona would have jumped ship. Betty left the Velvelettes for the Vandellas, but would Cal have left her group to join the Supremes? I think by the time Sandra joined the Vandellas, the Velvelettes were done.

There were tons of female artists who believed in their groups and their own individual talents. They may have admired the Supremes, enjoyed their music, even emulated them in some way, but had no interest in abandoning their own shot to jump into what I'm sure many already knew through the grapevine, which was that the Supremes were a powder keg of drama, especially with Diana in the mix, someone a lot of the girls had already seen in action over the years and wouldn't have wanted any part of that crazy.

i think a key distinction is if you're a backup member of the group or the lead. Patti and Cal were the lead singers. so i agree in your assessment that they would not be likely or viable candidates. even if both qualified simply on the rationale of "we're looking for a soprano singer"

as for Sarah and Nona, i don't know that they would want to be Supremes but i wouldn't say they wouldn't leave PLATB for another group. I'm not sure if I'm going to select the best example but would Sarah maybe leave the Bluebelles to join Ray Charles as a Raelette? maybe. that genre of music and style might have been more to her liking that the high-toned Supremes. Nona on the other hand was more of a leader. While patti actually sang the majority of the lead vocals, it was Nona that drove the direction of Labelle in the 70s. so Labelle was her group in more ways than just her vocal backup.

i don't necessarily disagree with your point about "loyalty to your group" but i wonder if we're all in line with that philosophy because 1) we're all die-hard sup fans so we have certainly established a similar "loyalty" and 2) mary explicitly outlines this sentiment in her books and talks about how they were sisters and how the 3 of them and their 3 personalities come together to form this "perfect woman" That isn't a sentiment shared by Diana or frankly most of the others. Mary was a Supreme until death do her part. So there definitely could be people in other groups that have that same sense of bonding. but i don't think it's something that all felt to that degree. Sure while you're in the group, you're saying you're the best, we're in it together, etc. Barbara martin probably felt that way in 60 and 61. but live moves on and by 62 her feelings and her life had changed

[PeaceNHarmony]

Certainly none of Ms. Patti's business, even if she thinks she knows the TRUTH. I imagine Patti would go ballistic if [[say) Martha Reeves chose to run her mouth like Patti concerning the various internecine issues within the group Labelle.