Cindy Birdsong - What If?

[marybrewster]

In the game of "what if's", do you think Cindy would have had more success staying with The Bluebelles rather than joining the Supremes?

On the onset, 1967 - 1972 and again in 1973/4-1976 it looks like Cindy made a good decision: highly successful TV programs [[TCB) in addition to many appearances on shows like Sullivan, Hollywood Palace, Soul Train and others, touring in prestigious supper clubs and in Vegas, #1 hit records [[Love Child and Someday), and new groups and recordings with both Jean and Scherrie. And so much more.

But let's remember: Love Child and Someday, while credited to the Supremes really weren't Mary and Cindy. So do those #1's actually count?

Now look at the Bluebelles: in 1971, they had a major overhaul, releasing albums every year from 1971 to 1976, including a #1 single in 1974. They would reunite time and time again over the years, to record [[1994 for TOO WONG FOO, which resulted in a #1 Dance record), accept awards [[The R & B Award), tour, and ultimately record again in 2008.

So while Cindy's career as a Supreme ultimately ended in 1976 [[sans one offs for Motown 25, 40, and 45), her career as a Bluebelle [[or as a LaBelle) would have lasted another 20 years.

The biggest question though: would Cindy have fit the LaBelle mold? Could you see her in a silver lame' spacesuit? LOL.

[Circa 1824]

Labelle was a girl group from the other side of the tracks. The Supremes were royalty.

Enough said.

[reese]

I think Cindy made the right decision in leaving the Bluebelles. In addition to being a great replacement for Flo, I think Cindy's leaving made Patti, Nona, and Sarah evolve into the tight unit that they became in Labelle.

It's an interesting thought seeing Cindy with them doing LADY MARMALADE or CAN I SPEAK TO YOU BEFOREYOU GO TO HOLLYWOOD?, not to mention the fashions. But it is hard for me to envision. Plus, who's to say that Labelle would have lasted 20 years with four members. Having to deal with four points of view might have made them combust earlier.

[sup_fan]

if you look at it from a financial perspective, she made an excellent decision. the royalties and appearance fee structure for the Supremes was WAAAAAAAYYYYYY higher than Bluebelles and also higher than Labelle. it really is not an exaggeration to say the Sups were constantly working. it isn't that the Bluebelles weren't working but they just didn't have the concert schedule that the Sups did between 67 - 72. and the tv appearances, the specials, the personal appearances, the concerts.

if you look at it from an artistic perspective, i think she still made a solid decision. while i'm not nearly as familiar with the Bluebelles, I think Cindy's role in the group was frankly not all that much different than her role in DRATS. Cindy was not a prominent member of the Bluebelles in terms of lead singing, spotlighted solo spots, writing songs, etc. so from 67 - 69 that was probably pretty much the same. but as the 70s sups emerged, she began to take on a much larger role with a few spotlighted lead lines and parts, more of a group trio as opposed to 1 lead and 2 backups, speaking lines in the act, etc. Cindy even did the spoken segment on Wisdom Of Time and lead lines on Bridge on NW.

it's possible that as Labelle emerged, Cindy might have been spotlighted more. but she would have been competing with the other 3, each of which had much larger roles as singers or writers. if nothing else, cindy definitely would not have had MORE exposure in Labelle than she did in the 70 Sups.

[sup_fan]

I think Cindy made the right decision in leaving the Bluebelles. In addition to being a great replacement for Flo, I think Cindy's leaving made Patti, Nona, and Sarah evolve into the tight unit that they became in Labelle.

It's an interesting thought seeing Cindy with them doing LADY MARMALADE or CAN I SPEAK TO YOU BEFOREYOU GO TO HOLLYWOOD?, not to mention the fashions. But it is hard for me to envision. Plus, who's to say that Labelle would have lasted 20 years with four members. Having to deal with four points of view might have made them combust earlier.

actually would there even have been a Can I Speak? wasn't that written almost specifically as a slam to Cindy for leaving?

[reese]

actually would there even have been a Can I Speak? wasn't that written almost specifically as a slam to Cindy for leaving?

I was throwing in one of my favorite Labelle songs there. But I always assumed HOLLYWOOD was written for Cindy. Yet at the Labelle reunion concerts, I had a few fans argue that it was actually directed at Elton John.

[BobbyC]

Hollywood is not about Cindy. It is about all the musical acts with whom the Bluebelles played the chitlin circuit, and when they got a hit record, they'd act like they no longer knew Patti. They "went to Hollywood" on the Bluebelles. This comes directly from Nona.

[milven]

It is also possible that if Cindy had not left, Patti LaBelle and the Bluebells would have just continued at the level that they had achieved at that time. They would not have reinvented themselves and moved to the higher level of success that LaBelle had achieved

[marybrewster]

I also wonder if Cindy had stayed through LaBelle, if she would have been able to contribute to song writing. She did mention around the time of recording in the 1980's that she'd be writing some songs, but nothing came to fruition.

[Spreadinglove21]

On the other end, if Cindy hadn't become a Supreme and someone else had replaced Flo, maybe the replacement would not have worked out, either with Diana and Mary, Berry, and/or the public. If that had happened, would the Supremes have disbanded and Diana may have been starting a solo career on weaker ground?

[lakeside]

I can't see Cindy in the LaBelle get ups and singing those songs. Nona, Sarah and Patti were or could be belters and Cindy was certainly not of that ilk. Cindy was suited for what she did in looks and music with The Supremes [[me thinks). It would be fun to see what that could look and sound like. I might be surprised! Ya never know.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think everything played out for Cindy in the best possible way. Cindy was more interested in the glamour image the Supremes had than the Bluebelles did. If Cindy had not left I wonder if Patti & her group would have had the nudge to become Labelle. If Cindy had not replaced Flo, DRATS would have been something that may not have worked with someone else since Flo was going to be ousted regardless. Cindy was not competition for Diana like Flo was and she visually blended very well with Mary so that it was definitely becoming a launching pad for Diana. Had someone else replaced Flo and not worked out, Diana would have not had as strong a launching pad. DRATS gave her a solo career without leaving the group. If Cindy had stayed and The Supremes had a different replacement than the history of both groups would have changed and probably both would not have been as successful without Cindy becoming a Supreme.

[RanRan79]

I think financially Cindy's decision to leave may have cost her more in the end than it would have had she stayed with her original group.

It is difficult to imagine Cindy in Labelle. We saw Cindy go from usual girl group getup in the Bluebelles to over the top glam with DRATS and then to a sophisticated lady look with the 70s Supremes. So imagining her in spacesuits and what not gives me a headache. Lol However, looking back, who would have thought the other Bluebelles, including Patti, would have ever looked "normal" in the look they eventually evolved into? So I suspect that, despite being able to picture it, Cindy would have slid just as easily into the new look as the other ladies.

Touring wise, Labelle certainly became a bigger draw than the 70s Supremes did, so there was more money to be made if Cindy had stayed. The ladies were stretching their artistic limits to include songwriting, and there isn't any reason to believe that Cindy would have been unable to contribute to this. While the only hit Supremes singles Cindy sang on were during the Jean era, she did get royalties for the DRATS singles she did not appear on, and when it came to singles, Cindy's tenure as a Supreme is leaps and bounds more successful than anything Labelle put out, with one major exception.

Which brings me to "Lady Marmalade". While it's basically the only single of Labelle's that most people remember, I would wager that in the long run it has done better than any of the DRATS hits, and definitely better than any of the 70s Supremes hits. LM is still an extremely popular song and I imagine is still keeping Patti and Nona nicely with their artist royalties. Unfortunately, Cindy was put in a position where she had to sign away the royalties she was receiving from the Supremes. Had she remained with Labelle she may never have been in a position where she had to sign her royalties away and ultimately end up in a hardship.

Cindy finally gave a solo career a try. This was years after her time as a Supreme. She looked good. She sounded good. The little I've seen of her live, she comes across well. All of that after spending nearly a decade as a background singer. Because Labelle was positioned as a group where everyone had some spotlight, had Cindy remained with them, there's no reason to believe she would not have had her fair share of that light. So when it came time for everyone to go their separate ways, Cindy may have fared better with a solo career, stepping from spotlight to spotlight, instead of shadows to spotlight, as her actual solo career went. And as pointed out already, the opportunities for reuniting and spotty group recordings and tours would certainly have been more lucrative than sitting around waiting for Diana and Mary to get it together.

I suspect that if we could ask Cindy, she would offer no regrets regarding becoming a Supreme. That was a once in a lifetime experience, regardless of the heights her other group would ascend to. But she might have more money in her pocket today if she had remained a Belle.

[marybrewster]

I think financially Cindy's decision to leave may have cost her more in the end than it would have had she stayed with her original group.

It is difficult to imagine Cindy in Labelle. We saw Cindy go from usual girl group getup in the Bluebelles to over the top glam with DRATS and then to a sophisticated lady look with the 70s Supremes. So imagining her in spacesuits and what not gives me a headache. Lol However, looking back, who would have thought the other Bluebelles, including Patti, would have ever looked "normal" in the look they eventually evolved into? So I suspect that, despite being able to picture it, Cindy would have slid just as easily into the new look as the other ladies.

Touring wise, Labelle certainly became a bigger draw than the 70s Supremes did, so there was more money to be made if Cindy had stayed. The ladies were stretching their artistic limits to include songwriting, and there isn't any reason to believe that Cindy would have been unable to contribute to this. While the only hit Supremes singles Cindy sang on were during the Jean era, she did get royalties for the DRATS singles she did not appear on, and when it came to singles, Cindy's tenure as a Supreme is leaps and bounds more successful than anything Labelle put out, with one major exception.

Which brings me to "Lady Marmalade". While it's basically the only single of Labelle's that most people remember, I would wager that in the long run it has done better than any of the DRATS hits, and definitely better than any of the 70s Supremes hits. LM is still an extremely popular song and I imagine is still keeping Patti and Nona nicely with their artist royalties. Unfortunately, Cindy was put in a position where she had to sign away the royalties she was receiving from the Supremes. Had she remained with Labelle she may never have been in a position where she had to sign her royalties away and ultimately end up in a hardship.

Cindy finally gave a solo career a try. This was years after her time as a Supreme. She looked good. She sounded good. The little I've seen of her live, she comes across well. All of that after spending nearly a decade as a background singer. Because Labelle was positioned as a group where everyone had some spotlight, had Cindy remained with them, there's no reason to believe she would not have had her fair share of that light. So when it came time for everyone to go their separate ways, Cindy may have fared better with a solo career, stepping from spotlight to spotlight, instead of shadows to spotlight, as her actual solo career went. And as pointed out already, the opportunities for reuniting and spotty group recordings and tours would certainly have been more lucrative than sitting around waiting for Diana and Mary to get it together.

I suspect that if we could ask Cindy, she would offer no regrets regarding becoming a Supreme. That was a once in a lifetime experience, regardless of the heights her other group would ascend to. But she might have more money in her pocket today if she had remained a Belle.

Thanks for your input Ran. I agree.

Looking at Sarah Dash's career, she was able to do more than any other Supreme, sans Diana and Mary, and MAYBE Scherrie or Susaye. Sarah became an actress, an author, a songwriter, toured with the Rolling Stones, had a solo singing career as well as a career as a backup singer [[both in recording and touring for other artists), had several incarnations of a cabaret show, and was celebrated several times by being inducted in several Hall of Fames. This in addition to sporadically reuniting and recording with LaBelle.

If Cindy followed in her footsteps, she might have had a career that was similar.

[sup_fan]

I think financially Cindy's decision to leave may have cost her more in the end than it would have had she stayed with her original group.

It is difficult to imagine Cindy in Labelle. We saw Cindy go from usual girl group getup in the Bluebelles to over the top glam with DRATS and then to a sophisticated lady look with the 70s Supremes. So imagining her in spacesuits and what not gives me a headache. Lol However, looking back, who would have thought the other Bluebelles, including Patti, would have ever looked "normal" in the look they eventually evolved into? So I suspect that, despite being able to picture it, Cindy would have slid just as easily into the new look as the other ladies.

Touring wise, Labelle certainly became a bigger draw than the 70s Supremes did, so there was more money to be made if Cindy had stayed. The ladies were stretching their artistic limits to include songwriting, and there isn't any reason to believe that Cindy would have been unable to contribute to this. While the only hit Supremes singles Cindy sang on were during the Jean era, she did get royalties for the DRATS singles she did not appear on, and when it came to singles, Cindy's tenure as a Supreme is leaps and bounds more successful than anything Labelle put out, with one major exception.

Which brings me to "Lady Marmalade". While it's basically the only single of Labelle's that most people remember, I would wager that in the long run it has done better than any of the DRATS hits, and definitely better than any of the 70s Supremes hits. LM is still an extremely popular song and I imagine is still keeping Patti and Nona nicely with their artist royalties. Unfortunately, Cindy was put in a position where she had to sign away the royalties she was receiving from the Supremes. Had she remained with Labelle she may never have been in a position where she had to sign her royalties away and ultimately end up in a hardship.

Cindy finally gave a solo career a try. This was years after her time as a Supreme. She looked good. She sounded good. The little I've seen of her live, she comes across well. All of that after spending nearly a decade as a background singer. Because Labelle was positioned as a group where everyone had some spotlight, had Cindy remained with them, there's no reason to believe she would not have had her fair share of that light. So when it came time for everyone to go their separate ways, Cindy may have fared better with a solo career, stepping from spotlight to spotlight, instead of shadows to spotlight, as her actual solo career went. And as pointed out already, the opportunities for reuniting and spotty group recordings and tours would certainly have been more lucrative than sitting around waiting for Diana and Mary to get it together.

I suspect that if we could ask Cindy, she would offer no regrets regarding becoming a Supreme. That was a once in a lifetime experience, regardless of the heights her other group would ascend to. But she might have more money in her pocket today if she had remained a Belle.

i think you might be overstating the financial impact of Labelle. Lady M and Nightbirds did well. but none of the previous or subsequent materials sold to any significant degree. and yes, LM is still a popular song and used in movies and compilation albums, that is just 1 song. also it was neither written or produced by any of the women. so the REAL financial payoff of these subsequent reissues is not going to the women. Even if LM sold 5 million singles [[which would be a massive hit and i'm not sure it was that popular), the 70s Sups alone sold that many with Ladder, SL, NJ, FJ and River, not to mention the smaller hits.

of course sales and royalties are rather moot since Cindy signed hers away in the 70s

as for her ability to do other things had she stayed in Labelle, i'm not so sure. Sarah and Nona and Patti all excelled in various areas because they had talent and ambitions to do so. I'm not saying Cindy was untalented or lazy. I'm just saying that Patti and Sarah and Nona are more like Diana's and Jean's, or even like mary. those ladies were pushing for greater roles and presence in the Sups. Cindy never really pushed for her role to expand greatly within the group, at least compared to the others. so i would assume in Labelle, she would have a similar role.

[RanRan79]

Thanks for your input Ran. I agree.

Looking at Sarah Dash's career, she was able to do more than any other Supreme, sans Diana and Mary, and MAYBE Scherrie or Susaye. Sarah became an actress, an author, a songwriter, toured with the Rolling Stones, had a solo singing career as well as a career as a backup singer [[both in recording and touring for other artists), had several incarnations of a cabaret show, and was celebrated several times by being inducted in several Hall of Fames. This in addition to sporadically reuniting and recording with LaBelle.

If Cindy followed in her footsteps, she might have had a career that was similar.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Once Labelle took off, it could've provided Cindy with opportunities that gave her a leg up when the group went their separate ways.

[RanRan79]

i think you might be overstating the financial impact of Labelle. Lady M and Nightbirds did well. but none of the previous or subsequent materials sold to any significant degree. and yes, LM is still a popular song and used in movies and compilation albums, that is just 1 song. also it was neither written or produced by any of the women. so the REAL financial payoff of these subsequent reissues is not going to the women. Even if LM sold 5 million singles [[which would be a massive hit and i'm not sure it was that popular), the 70s Sups alone sold that many with Ladder, SL, NJ, FJ and River, not to mention the smaller hits.

of course sales and royalties are rather moot since Cindy signed hers away in the 70s

as for her ability to do other things had she stayed in Labelle, i'm not so sure. Sarah and Nona and Patti all excelled in various areas because they had talent and ambitions to do so. I'm not saying Cindy was untalented or lazy. I'm just saying that Patti and Sarah and Nona are more like Diana's and Jean's, or even like mary. those ladies were pushing for greater roles and presence in the Sups. Cindy never really pushed for her role to expand greatly within the group, at least compared to the others. so i would assume in Labelle, she would have a similar role.

"Lady" and "Nightbirds" did well enough. Both bested any one song or album that the 70s Supremes released. Without having access to any of the actual sales figures for either the Supremes or Labelle, combining Labelle's sales with the 70s Supremes is an argument I'll allow. However, in my mind there can be no argument that Labelle became a popular act in a way that the 70s Supremes did not. Labelle was playing places like the Met and were on the cover of Rolling Stone. The 70s Supremes couldn't dream of playing a place like that, not when they were just trying to hold their heads above water and sometimes playing some B list places.

There's money in hit records, but I think I read once where the real money was in putting butts in the seats of venues. Once Labelle took off, they were packing them in. I'm guessing they were getting paid comparable to the places they were playing, and I can't imagine the 70s Supremes- certainly post "Nathan"- doing any of that. Plus it's worth mentioning that post Labelle there hasn't been any news about any of the ladies in a bad financial spot- correct me if I'm wrong- which the same cannot be said about some of the 70s Supremes, including Cindy and Mary.

As far as Cindy's abilities and ambitions, what do you really have to go on? We really can't know what Cindy aspired to. What we do know is that she went from what appeared to be an equal place in the Bluebelles to joining the Supremes when it was revamped from a traditional group to Diana billed first and the Supremes second. She was, for all intents and purposes, Diana Ross' background singer, brought in to help make the transition from group singer to solo star. And even once Diana left and Jean came aboard, the Supremes were not Cindy's group. She was going to defer to Mary on everything. Labelle was not built that way. Although Patti's name was out front of the Bluebelles, when the group revamped everyone was on the same level, even with Patti still taking the bulk of the leads. There's no evidence that had Cindy stayed that she would not have found her niche just like the other ladies she sang with within the group. Attempting to predict what Cindy Labelle would've been like based off of Cindy Supreme is an unfair conclusion because the two groups, their situations, the personalities involved were all so very different.

And I have to point out that from what I remember reading about the lady who originally envisioned Labelle's transition, she was supportive of the ladies, championing them to spread their wings. Cindy was never a Supreme under that type of guidance. Hell, for a time she made waves by answering press questions directed at her! Lol There was no one at Motown to tell Cindy the sky was the limit. Gordy did that for Diana, he did not do it for any of the other Supremes. And I've said before- and looks like I'm about to say it again- when someone is in your corner, that's an invaluable source of success, particularly in a business like music. Having someone constantly tell you to stay in your place isn't usually the story of success in the music business, not in a group setting.

[sup_fan]

"Lady" and "Nightbirds" did well enough. Both bested any one song or album that the 70s Supremes released. Without having access to any of the actual sales figures for either the Supremes or Labelle, combining Labelle's sales with the 70s Supremes is an argument I'll allow. However, in my mind there can be no argument that Labelle became a popular act in a way that the 70s Supremes did not. Labelle was playing places like the Met and were on the cover of Rolling Stone. The 70s Supremes couldn't dream of playing a place like that, not when they were just trying to hold their heads above water and sometimes playing some B list places.

There's money in hit records, but I think I read once where the real money was in putting butts in the seats of venues. Once Labelle took off, they were packing them in. I'm guessing they were getting paid comparable to the places they were playing, and I can't imagine the 70s Supremes- certainly post "Nathan"- doing any of that. Plus it's worth mentioning that post Labelle there hasn't been any news about any of the ladies in a bad financial spot- correct me if I'm wrong- which the same cannot be said about some of the 70s Supremes, including Cindy and Mary.

As far as Cindy's abilities and ambitions, what do you really have to go on? We really can't know what Cindy aspired to. What we do know is that she went from what appeared to be an equal place in the Bluebelles to joining the Supremes when it was revamped from a traditional group to Diana billed first and the Supremes second. She was, for all intents and purposes, Diana Ross' background singer, brought in to help make the transition from group singer to solo star. And even once Diana left and Jean came aboard, the Supremes were not Cindy's group. She was going to defer to Mary on everything. Labelle was not built that way. Although Patti's name was out front of the Bluebelles, when the group revamped everyone was on the same level, even with Patti still taking the bulk of the leads. There's no evidence that had Cindy stayed that she would not have found her niche just like the other ladies she sang with within the group. Attempting to predict what Cindy Labelle would've been like based off of Cindy Supreme is an unfair conclusion because the two groups, their situations, the personalities involved were all so very different.

And I have to point out that from what I remember reading about the lady who originally envisioned Labelle's transition, she was supportive of the ladies, championing them to spread their wings. Cindy was never a Supreme under that type of guidance. Hell, for a time she made waves by answering press questions directed at her! Lol There was no one at Motown to tell Cindy the sky was the limit. Gordy did that for Diana, he did not do it for any of the other Supremes. And I've said before- and looks like I'm about to say it again- when someone is in your corner, that's an invaluable source of success, particularly in a business like music. Having someone constantly tell you to stay in your place isn't usually the story of success in the music business, not in a group setting.

all valid points, though i'll choose to disagree with most lol

i agree that LM best any of the 70s Sups chart positions. but it was #1 for 1 week on the pop chart. i don't know it's overall chart longevity - but i'd give it the benefit of the doubt that it sold very well and charted for a long time. But so did SL. although it didn't go #1, it ranks up there as one of the best selling Sup songs of all time. it was on the charts forever. the other Labelle songs were not big sellers. only 1 other song even made the Top 100, peaking in the 40s.

Nightbirds did beat the 70s sups albums but i'd venture that, like LM, it sold well but the other Labelle lps did not. a few others made modest chartings. but that's it.

so yes. in late 74/75, labelle was super hot. they were on magazine covers, they had big concerts, etc. But by 75 that was waning. and sure the Sups weren't doing much in 74 but that had had a very solid run in 70 and 71. That's why in 72, when Cindy departed, motown wasn't really necessarily looking to can the group. Like they would in mid 73. there were still solid concert bookings. were they as solid of bookings as in 70 - no, probably not. things were definitely slipping.

but that give Cindy 70 and 71 has a top concert act, 72 as an ok act. then 74 - 76 as a small act. Labelle had 1 year of major success

[sup_fan]

all valid points, though i'll choose to disagree with most lol

i agree that LM best any of the 70s Sups chart positions. but it was #1 for 1 week on the pop chart. i don't know it's overall chart longevity - but i'd give it the benefit of the doubt that it sold very well and charted for a long time. But so did SL. although it didn't go #1, it ranks up there as one of the best selling Sup songs of all time. it was on the charts forever. the other Labelle songs were not big sellers. only 1 other song even made the Top 100, peaking in the 40s.

Nightbirds did beat the 70s sups albums but i'd venture that, like LM, it sold well but the other Labelle lps did not. a few others made modest chartings. but that's it.

so yes. in late 74/75, labelle was super hot. they were on magazine covers, they had big concerts, etc. But by 75 that was waning. and sure the Sups weren't doing much in 74 but that had had a very solid run in 70 and 71. That's why in 72, when Cindy departed, motown wasn't really necessarily looking to can the group. Like they would in mid 73. there were still solid concert bookings. were they as solid of bookings as in 70 - no, probably not. things were definitely slipping.

but that give Cindy 70 and 71 has a top concert act, 72 as an ok act. then 74 - 76 as a small act. Labelle had 1 year of major success

as for bad financial positions post Supremes, i believe that is mostly chalked up to poor decisions. Cindy herself said she made a lot of money as a Sup but invested it poorly and then signed away her royalties. Mary was anything but frugal. her huge mansion in Hancock Park was impressive. but very expensive. I don't know what any of the Labelle members did, in terms of finances. but i would be very surprised if, at the time, any were living anywhere near as high on the hog as mary

[milven]

....Unfortunately, Cindy was put in a position where she had to sign away the royalties she was receiving from the Supremes...

Why did she have to sign away her royalties? Usually, artists do that to get out of a contract, or sign with another label. Some artists are tricked into signing their royalties away by being given a lump sum up front which looks very attractive. But the royalties that they give up are almost always so much more valuable than the lump sum that they are given up front

[sup_fan]

"Lady" and "Nightbirds" did well enough. Both bested any one song or album that the 70s Supremes released. Without having access to any of the actual sales figures for either the Supremes or Labelle, combining Labelle's sales with the 70s Supremes is an argument I'll allow. However, in my mind there can be no argument that Labelle became a popular act in a way that the 70s Supremes did not. Labelle was playing places like the Met and were on the cover of Rolling Stone. The 70s Supremes couldn't dream of playing a place like that, not when they were just trying to hold their heads above water and sometimes playing some B list places.

There's money in hit records, but I think I read once where the real money was in putting butts in the seats of venues. Once Labelle took off, they were packing them in. I'm guessing they were getting paid comparable to the places they were playing, and I can't imagine the 70s Supremes- certainly post "Nathan"- doing any of that. Plus it's worth mentioning that post Labelle there hasn't been any news about any of the ladies in a bad financial spot- correct me if I'm wrong- which the same cannot be said about some of the 70s Supremes, including Cindy and Mary.

As far as Cindy's abilities and ambitions, what do you really have to go on? We really can't know what Cindy aspired to. What we do know is that she went from what appeared to be an equal place in the Bluebelles to joining the Supremes when it was revamped from a traditional group to Diana billed first and the Supremes second. She was, for all intents and purposes, Diana Ross' background singer, brought in to help make the transition from group singer to solo star. And even once Diana left and Jean came aboard, the Supremes were not Cindy's group. She was going to defer to Mary on everything. Labelle was not built that way. Although Patti's name was out front of the Bluebelles, when the group revamped everyone was on the same level, even with Patti still taking the bulk of the leads. There's no evidence that had Cindy stayed that she would not have found her niche just like the other ladies she sang with within the group. Attempting to predict what Cindy Labelle would've been like based off of Cindy Supreme is an unfair conclusion because the two groups, their situations, the personalities involved were all so very different.

And I have to point out that from what I remember reading about the lady who originally envisioned Labelle's transition, she was supportive of the ladies, championing them to spread their wings. Cindy was never a Supreme under that type of guidance. Hell, for a time she made waves by answering press questions directed at her! Lol There was no one at Motown to tell Cindy the sky was the limit. Gordy did that for Diana, he did not do it for any of the other Supremes. And I've said before- and looks like I'm about to say it again- when someone is in your corner, that's an invaluable source of success, particularly in a business like music. Having someone constantly tell you to stay in your place isn't usually the story of success in the music business, not in a group setting.

as for growth and development and all that, i'm assuming if cindy had requested her role be increased within the framework of the 70s supremes, it would have been. i know in Mary's book there's the little segment about cindy being upset in 75 or so for not having a spotlight in the act. back in 70 she and mary were both getting little lines here and there, like in Everybody. and then Love the one you're with. plus on the lps. so i'm making the assumption that she wasn't that interested in more, otherwise she would have asked for more and taken on more. of course i don't know for sure on that

[RanRan79]

all valid points, though i'll choose to disagree with most lol

i agree that LM best any of the 70s Sups chart positions. but it was #1 for 1 week on the pop chart. i don't know it's overall chart longevity - but i'd give it the benefit of the doubt that it sold very well and charted for a long time. But so did SL. although it didn't go #1, it ranks up there as one of the best selling Sup songs of all time. it was on the charts forever. the other Labelle songs were not big sellers. only 1 other song even made the Top 100, peaking in the 40s.

Nightbirds did beat the 70s sups albums but i'd venture that, like LM, it sold well but the other Labelle lps did not. a few others made modest chartings. but that's it.

so yes. in late 74/75, labelle was super hot. they were on magazine covers, they had big concerts, etc. But by 75 that was waning. and sure the Sups weren't doing much in 74 but that had had a very solid run in 70 and 71. That's why in 72, when Cindy departed, motown wasn't really necessarily looking to can the group. Like they would in mid 73. there were still solid concert bookings. were they as solid of bookings as in 70 - no, probably not. things were definitely slipping.

but that give Cindy 70 and 71 has a top concert act, 72 as an ok act. then 74 - 76 as a small act. Labelle had 1 year of major success

All of this is true. The difference is that when Labelle was hot, they were HOT. I don't think the 70s Supremes ever matched that level. "Lady" ended up the 22nd biggest hit on the Hot 100 that year. In comparison, "Stoned Love" was #66.

Labelle was able to parlay their time as a group into successful solo ventures, varied success as it may have been. Cindy as a Supreme just didn't have the launch pad Labelle had. Now let's be clear, I am not suggesting Cindy was going to be some huge solo star. Maybe she would have. There are certainly some questionable "talents" who are household names, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not referring to current artists. Who knows what Cindy might have lucked up on. Maybe she would have been Madonna before Madonna.

[RanRan79]

Why did she have to sign away her royalties? Usually, artists do that to get out of a contract, or sign with another label. Some artists are tricked into signing their royalties away by being given a lump sum up front which looks very attractive. But the royalties that they give up are almost always so much more valuable than the lump sum that they are given up front

I believe this was to get out of her contract with Motown. And like Flo, she took a lump sum. Those lump sums always look good in the moment. And for Cindy, it had to have looked good when she had a kid to feed. But in the end the annual royalties were "guaranteed" income every year and she would have probably been better off.

[RanRan79]

as for growth and development and all that, i'm assuming if cindy had requested her role be increased within the framework of the 70s supremes, it would have been. i know in Mary's book there's the little segment about cindy being upset in 75 or so for not having a spotlight in the act. back in 70 she and mary were both getting little lines here and there, like in Everybody. and then Love the one you're with. plus on the lps. so i'm making the assumption that she wasn't that interested in more, otherwise she would have asked for more and taken on more. of course i don't know for sure on that

While we know from Patti Labelle that Cindy would open up a can of whoop ass if she felt it necessary, she does not appear to be one who wishes to shake the boat. She definitely wasn't going to look for anything within DRATS. Mary had been there from the jump and she had to beg, steal and borrow to get a little spotlight once Diana got top billing. Cindy didn't have a prayer. Once the Jean era rolled in, Cindy may have just understood the program for what it was. She certainly got to do more with Jean than she did with Diana. By the time of Mary's story regarding Cindy being upset, it was her second go round with the group, and as we've deconstructed the various lineups, MCS really were more of an all around group than previous lineups, minus the original trio. Even the vibe was different. Cindy may have watched Mary and now the new girl getting all this time in the limelight and wondered why that wasn't the case for her. Mary's story certainly gives credence to the idea that Cindy did want something more than a background position. Whose to say she didn't want that the whole time? Labelle could've given her that opportunity. MCS was probably the first time Cindy really had that chance as a Supreme. And even then there was apparently some pushback.

[RanRan79]

all valid points, though i'll choose to disagree with most lol

Yes, "choose" being the operative word. Contrary for contrary's sake. You're nothing if not predictable Sup.

[sup_fan]

All of this is true. The difference is that when Labelle was hot, they were HOT. I don't think the 70s Supremes ever matched that level. "Lady" ended up the 22nd biggest hit on the Hot 100 that year. In comparison, "Stoned Love" was #66.

Labelle was able to parlay their time as a group into successful solo ventures, varied success as it may have been. Cindy as a Supreme just didn't have the launch pad Labelle had. Now let's be clear, I am not suggesting Cindy was going to be some huge solo star. Maybe she would have. There are certainly some questionable "talents" who are household names, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not referring to current artists. Who knows what Cindy might have lucked up on. Maybe she would have been Madonna before Madonna.

Ok so labelle had solid royalties from one single and one album. Since we don’t know the number of weeks LM charted, let’s just say it’s overall sales figures equaled Ladder + SL. That still leaves 5 top 40 singles

You could do similar to the 70s albums.

Plus there is all of the DRATS material. Even if Cindy wasn’t on the record she got the royalties. LC, IGMYLM and Someday all would have outsold LM by leaps and bounds. Plus TCB Join each would have outsold Nightbirds. Anthology in 74 was big. Even GH3 sold a lot even if the chart position wasn’t stellar.

And then all of the moderate sellers of singles and albums.

Without a doubt the financial decision to go Sup was a good one for her. Unfortunately poor decisions haunted her

[marybrewster]

I don't know much about Cindy's post Supreme life, other than a short attempt at a solo singing career. Some have said she worked for a time at Motown as a secretary to Suzanne; others have said she worked at UCLA hospital.

I'm not suggesting Cindy would have been a millionaire from the royalties of LaBelle's recordings, but what I do think is, based on the careers of Sarah and Nona, is that Cindy might have continued to have a successful career in the entertainment industry.

[RanRan79]

Ok so labelle had solid royalties from one single and one album. Since we don’t know the number of weeks LM charted, let’s just say it’s overall sales figures equaled Ladder + SL. That still leaves 5 top 40 singles

You could do similar to the 70s albums.

Plus there is all of the DRATS material. Even if Cindy wasn’t on the record she got the royalties. LC, IGMYLM and Someday all would have outsold LM by leaps and bounds. Plus TCB Join each would have outsold Nightbirds. Anthology in 74 was big. Even GH3 sold a lot even if the chart position wasn’t stellar.

And then all of the moderate sellers of singles and albums.

Without a doubt the financial decision to go Sup was a good one for her. Unfortunately poor decisions haunted her

But I could make the argument that since she was fired from the Supremes, thereby having to choose between annual royalties or a lump sum, she ended up in a situation she may not have been in had she remained with Labelle. And since Labelle also offered more opportunities post group than the Supremes did, Cindy could've continued to work and may have found successes with her further ventures. Any ideas about the royalties is so conjectured [[because we don't know for a fact how much money in royalties either group ever earned, and can't account for the royalty rate for each group either, which may not have been the same) that for me it's an afterthought fact. Those checks can only be so big. What opportunities may have come Cindy's way had she stayed may or may not have been more lucrative.

In the end we know Cindy more as a Supreme, and as I stated before, she probably likely loves that and wouldn't take anything for it. But sometimes the shinier object isn't always worth the most.

[RanRan79]

I'm not suggesting Cindy would have been a millionaire from the royalties of LaBelle's recordings, but what I do think is, based on the careers of Sarah and Nona, is that Cindy might have continued to have a successful career in the entertainment industry.

My point exactly. The Supremes just didn't offer Cindy the launch pad that Labelle offered Nona and Sarah.

Did Cindy ever do anything with Labelle as the years went on? Were the four of them ever seen together again, aside from the infamous backstage visit by Cindy, Mary and Scherrie?

[reese]

My point exactly. The Supremes just didn't offer Cindy the launch pad that Labelle offered Nona and Sarah.

Did Cindy ever do anything with Labelle as the years went on? Were the four of them ever seen together again, aside from the infamous backstage visit by Cindy, Mary and Scherrie?

When the Bluebelles were honored by the Rhythm and Blues Foundation in the late 90s, they reunited to sing YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE. The ceremony was filmed, as they showed a brief clip during one of Patti's Oprah appearances.

[sup_fan]

My point exactly. The Supremes just didn't offer Cindy the launch pad that Labelle offered Nona and Sarah.

Did Cindy ever do anything with Labelle as the years went on? Were the four of them ever seen together again, aside from the infamous backstage visit by Cindy, Mary and Scherrie?

but my point earlier was that I don't know if i would label Cindy as a "nona" or a "sarah" both of those women had different vocal capabilities and skills. different drive and ambitions. just assuming cindy had remained in Labelle doesn't mean she would have had post-labelle careers like the others because I don't know that she had those skills or ambitions.

my basis for this is that within the Sups org, she really never made any attempt to establish herself as an individual artist. she didn't write any songs [[that we know of), even though the women really weren't able to write or produce their own material. She had a good relationship with Scherrie - couldn't she have possibly work with S and S on Partners? maybe doing song writing or backing vocals? cindy never really seems to have done any other general session work - L and S did backing vocals for other labels and artists.

[RanRan79]

When the Bluebelles were honored by the Rhythm and Blues Foundation in the late 90s, they reunited to sing YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE. The ceremony was filmed, as they showed a brief clip during one of Patti's Oprah appearances.

I don't think I knew that. Thanks Reese! Hope to see the footage someday.

[RanRan79]

but my point earlier was that I don't know if i would label Cindy as a "nona" or a "sarah" both of those women had different vocal capabilities and skills. different drive and ambitions. just assuming cindy had remained in Labelle doesn't mean she would have had post-labelle careers like the others because I don't know that she had those skills or ambitions.

my basis for this is that within the Sups org, she really never made any attempt to establish herself as an individual artist. she didn't write any songs [[that we know of), even though the women really weren't able to write or produce their own material. She had a good relationship with Scherrie - couldn't she have possibly work with S and S on Partners? maybe doing song writing or backing vocals? cindy never really seems to have done any other general session work - L and S did backing vocals for other labels and artists.

I know that you don't know Sup. None of us know anything beyond what actually occurred. It's all theory. But you keep talking as if everything about Labelle was visible in the Bluebelles. I'm hard pressed to find any evidence that says Nona and Sarah were Labelle waiting to happen in the clips I've seen of the Bluebelles performing, anymore than Cindy appeared that way. I don't know that the Bluebelles ever wrote their own material or expressed to their record labels that they wanted to do that. As I pointed out before, when Cindy was in the Supremes she was not in a position where writing and producing was encouraged or explored. While Cindy does not appear to be the kind of singer Labelle was, there isn't any information to suggest that whatever she might have been able to do would not have fit in with what the entire group was doing. Again, unlike the Supremes, the transition to Labelle saw each member being allowed to stretch her artistic wings and there is no evidence that Cindy would've run around like a chicken with it's head cut off, screaming "What am I gonna do? What about meeeee?". Lol When were the Supremes ever given the kinds of artistic opportunities Labelle was given? And even if they expressed those desires, at which point do you think Motown would have gotten behind it?

What we do know about Cindy is that she apparently was entertaining the idea of entering a solo career as early as the late 70s because she did those "demos" of High Energy cuts at Scherrie's house. Also recall any decisions Cindy made or desires she had post Supremes were always going to hinge on the fact that she was a mother first and would need to do what was necessary to ensure that her kid was taken care of. And if that meant sitting her musical ambitions aside to take jobs as assistants or in a hospital, kudos to her for putting her son before herself.

There really is a lot we don't know about Cindy. And until her biography comes out, it's all guess work. I just don't think there's enough evidence out there to suggest that Cindy lacked ambition or the desire to further her skills as a singer and entertainer, not if we're comparing the Supremes to Labelle, two groups whose only common ground was they could all sing, they were all women, they were all Black and they were all around the same age. Oh and of course Cindy sang with them all.

[reese]

I don't think I knew that. Thanks Reese! Hope to see the footage someday.

Here's a photo. 2/25/99.

[reese]

I know that you don't know Sup. None of us know anything beyond what actually occurred. It's all theory. But you keep talking as if everything about Labelle was visible in the Bluebelles. I'm hard pressed to find any evidence that says Nona and Sarah were Labelle waiting to happen in the clips I've seen of the Bluebelles performing, anymore than Cindy appeared that way. I don't know that the Bluebelles ever wrote their own material or expressed to their record labels that they wanted to do that.

Sarah and Nona each wrote a song for one of their later Atlantic singles.

[TheMotownManiac]

In the game of "what if's", do you think Cindy would have had more success staying with The Bluebelles rather than joining the Supremes?

On the onset, 1967 - 1972 and again in 1973/4-1976 it looks like Cindy made a good decision: highly successful TV programs [[TCB) in addition to many appearances on shows like Sullivan, Hollywood Palace, Soul Train and others, touring in prestigious supper clubs and in Vegas, #1 hit records [[Love Child and Someday), and new groups and recordings with both Jean and Scherrie. And so much more.

But let's remember: Love Child and Someday, while credited to the Supremes really weren't Mary and Cindy. So do those #1's actually count?

Now look at the Bluebelles: in 1971, they had a major overhaul, releasing albums every year from 1971 to 1976, including a #1 single in 1974. They would reunite time and time again over the years, to record [[1994 for TOO WONG FOO, which resulted in a #1 Dance record), accept awards [[The R & B Award), tour, and ultimately record again in 2008.

So while Cindy's career as a Supreme ultimately ended in 1976 [[sans one offs for Motown 25, 40, and 45), her career as a Bluebelle [[or as a LaBelle) would have lasted another 20 years.

The biggest question though: would Cindy have fit the LaBelle mold? Could you see her in a silver lame' spacesuit? LOL.

I don’t think there’s any question that financially, Cindy did much better than she would have with the bluebells.

1) her royalties for the Supremes would far out pace the tempered royalty checks she would get on a four-way split of one hit album and one hit single.
When she was a supreme, they sold millions and millions of singles and millions of albums. Her decision to dump her royalties notwithstanding, there’s no question that royalty wise as she would far out pace what Patti‘s group would do. It’s not that Patti didn’t have a couple other ok selling albums, no but by the time the record company was through billing them for everything, there wouldn’t be much to divvy up. The recording contracts that they signed, I can only imagine, were not very fruitful because they had absolutely no bargaining power because they weren’t selling anything. They had to take what was offered which I’m sure wasn’t much. Residual royalties for Lady marmalade, a nearly 50 year old record, would be good by 50 year old standards split four ways. But that wouldn’t near equal the constant repackaging of the Supremes hits associated with Cindy.
ADVANTAGE:SUPREMES

2) The money generated for years of playing top venues around the world obliterates the chilling circuit dollars The bluebells earned. I imagine that the take the Supremes got from selling out the Kiel Arena in 1969 equalled or bettered what the blue bells may have done all month. When the gigantic record lady marmalade came out, and the group exploded, they were getting some decent gigs but the year after that began, they broke up. Meanwhile they had a bunch of low paying contracts they had to fulfill while they’re hit single was making them a household name. They were headlining at some decent venues for a short period of time and then it ended.
ADVANTAGE: SUPREMES

3) The supremes made many many television performances with Cindy and although many of them probably did pay scale, others would have generated a nice paycheck. This year volume of appearances with the Supremes would dwarf the appearances the blue bells had when lady marmalade hit.
ADVANTAGE: SUPREMES

4) Not Everything is dollars and cents. Perhaps Cindy would’ve been happier with Labelle, maybe she would’ve enjoyed the camaraderie with her old friends experiencing them finally making the big time together. I’m not going to speculate on that. I don’t think that Cindy would have gone on to any kind of solo success or anything like a Sarah and Nonna, just frankly I can’t imagine anyone wanting to play an album or watch a concert of hers because her voice, is fine, but in my opinion it’s absolutely nothing special. And she tried twice to launch a solo career that went nowhere, but that could be at least partly due to the fact that, all she is probably the nicest supreme, certainly the nicest I ever met, she wasn’t what you would call shrewd. I just don’t think she had the fortitude to do what needed to be done to have a career as a solo. Mary had the guts, fortitude and talent to be a successful solo act. I don’t think Cindy did.
I would guess that, all things being equal, traveling around the world first class would’ve been a great experience. My guess is that she would say that if she had to make a choice, her experience with the Supremes was better, but that wasn’t anything we ever talked about so I won’t venture an opinion.
ADVANTAGE: YOU DECIDE

[RanRan79]

Here's a photo. 2/25/99.

Thanks Reese!

[RanRan79]

Sarah and Nona each wrote a song for one of their later Atlantic singles.

Reese, get yo ass off Soulful Detroit and write the book on everything so the rest of us can finally know what you know. Geez.

[reese]

Reese, get yo ass off Soulful Detroit and write the book on everything so the rest of us can finally know what you know. Geez.

Ha ha!

Sarah wrote LOVING RULES and Nona wrote I NEED YOUR LOVE, the latter is one that I particularly enjoy.

[sup_fan]

I don’t think there’s any question that financially, Cindy did much better than she would have with the bluebells.

1) her royalties for the Supremes would far out pace the tempered royalty checks she would get on a four-way split of one hit album and one hit single.
When she was a supreme, they sold millions and millions of singles and millions of albums. Her decision to dump her royalties notwithstanding, there’s no question that royalty wise as she would far out pace what Patti‘s group would do. It’s not that Patti didn’t have a couple other ok selling albums, no but by the time the record company was through billing them for everything, there wouldn’t be much to divvy up. The recording contracts that they signed, I can only imagine, were not very fruitful because they had absolutely no bargaining power because they weren’t selling anything. They had to take what was offered which I’m sure wasn’t much. Residual royalties for Lady marmalade, a nearly 50 year old record, would be good by 50 year old standards split four ways. But that wouldn’t near equal the constant repackaging of the Supremes hits associated with Cindy.
ADVANTAGE:SUPREMES

2) The money generated for years of playing top venues around the world obliterates the chilling circuit dollars The bluebells earned. I imagine that the take the Supremes got from selling out the Kiel Arena in 1969 equalled or bettered what the blue bells may have done all month. When the gigantic record lady marmalade came out, and the group exploded, they were getting some decent gigs but the year after that began, they broke up. Meanwhile they had a bunch of low paying contracts they had to fulfill while they’re hit single was making them a household name. They were headlining at some decent venues for a short period of time and then it ended.
ADVANTAGE: SUPREMES

3) The supremes made many many television performances with Cindy and although many of them probably did pay scale, others would have generated a nice paycheck. This year volume of appearances with the Supremes would dwarf the appearances the blue bells had when lady marmalade hit.
ADVANTAGE: SUPREMES

4) Not Everything is dollars and cents. Perhaps Cindy would’ve been happier with Labelle, maybe she would’ve enjoyed the camaraderie with her old friends experiencing them finally making the big time together. I’m not going to speculate on that. I don’t think that Cindy would have gone on to any kind of solo success or anything like a Sarah and Nonna, just frankly I can’t imagine anyone wanting to play an album or watch a concert of hers because her voice, is fine, but in my opinion it’s absolutely nothing special. And she tried twice to launch a solo career that went nowhere, but that could be at least partly due to the fact that, all she is probably the nicest supreme, certainly the nicest I ever met, she wasn’t what you would call shrewd. I just don’t think she had the fortitude to do what needed to be done to have a career as a solo. Mary had the guts, fortitude and talent to be a successful solo act. I don’t think Cindy did.
I would guess that, all things being equal, traveling around the world first class would’ve been a great experience. My guess is that she would say that if she had to make a choice, her experience with the Supremes was better, but that wasn’t anything we ever talked about so I won’t venture an opinion.
ADVANTAGE: YOU DECIDE

completely agree. people are comparing only the 70s supremes run to labelle, and frankly IMO assuming far too much with the Labelle success. they are the definition of a one hit wonder even though they are remembered well. some songs simply have a life well beyond their initial sales impact.

Reflections is one of the most enduring hits by the Supremes. same with My World. neither of which topped the charts. neither of which sold to the level of Stoned Love and some other songs. but both R and MW are totally engrained in the general public's consciousness. same with Lady Mar

so yes, without a doubt Cindy earned more money and fame as a Supreme.

[RanRan79]

Ha ha!

Sarah wrote LOVING RULES and Nona wrote I NEED YOUR LOVE, the latter is one that I particularly enjoy.

I did not know Nona wrote "I Need Your Love". Without thinking too hard, I believe it's my favorite Bluebelle song. My fingers are always crossed that an extended fade surfaces.

[RanRan79]

completely agree. people are comparing only the 70s supremes run to labelle, and frankly IMO assuming far too much with the Labelle success. they are the definition of a one hit wonder even though they are remembered well. some songs simply have a life well beyond their initial sales impact.

Reflections is one of the most enduring hits by the Supremes. same with My World. neither of which topped the charts. neither of which sold to the level of Stoned Love and some other songs. but both R and MW are totally engrained in the general public's consciousness. same with Lady Mar

so yes, without a doubt Cindy earned more money and fame as a Supreme.

But the question Mary posed wasn't which group earned Cindy the most money and fame. We know the answer to that question. It's an indisputable fact, the Supremes. The question posed was would Cindy have had more success if she had stayed with her original group. I read that as "which situation would have worked out for Cindy in the long run", because surely no one would suggest that song for song, or fame for fame, that any female group of the era was bigger than the Supremes. For me the answer lies in the fate of the non Diana Ross Supremes vs all the members of Labelle. Nona and Sarah were able to parlay their Labelle experience into long post-Labelle careers. While Mary Wilson has to be the most famous and most visible of girl group singers not named Diana Ross or Patti Labelle, she struggled to find her way out. Her books have to be the crowning glory of her post Supremes' career. Nona and Sarah wrote music, continued to record, etc. And it appears they all walked away from Labelle with their royalties intact. In the long run, Cindy might have fared better sticking with her group because the two groups did not offer the same post group opportunities. And we know the financial situation Cindy Supreme ultimately has ended up in.

But just so everyone is clear, I was not suggesting Labelle was more famous or more successful than the Supremes. However, I will point out that there's no way in the world any of the DRATS singles are more popular than "Lady Marmalade", no matter how many copies any of them originally sold. "Lady" is still a hot song and is constantly being used in all manners of media. I'm hard pressed to remember the last time I heard a DRATS song used or played anywhere. Perhaps "Someday" is the last one I heard. It does make it's way into some movies and tv shows every now and again, but "Lady Marmalade" is dusting it and the other DRATS singles. And I won't even bother comparing it to the 70s Supremes hits.

[bradsupremes]

But just so everyone is clear, I was not suggesting Labelle was more famous or more successful than the Supremes. However, I will point out that there's no way in the world any of the DRATS singles are more popular than "Lady Marmalade", no matter how many copies any of them originally sold. "Lady" is still a hot song and is constantly being used in all manners of media. I'm hard pressed to remember the last time I heard a DRATS song used or played anywhere. Perhaps "Someday" is the last one I heard. It does make it's way into some movies and tv shows every now and again, but "Lady Marmalade" is dusting it and the other DRATS singles. And I won't even bother comparing it to the 70s Supremes hits.

This is debatable. Yes, "Lady Marmalade" is an iconic song but the popularity of that song is being split with the 2001 cover by Pink, Lil' Kim, Christina Aguilera and Mya. A lot of people especially youth today are not associating the song with LaBelle. I agree that it's popularity has not been lost but say that it overshadows the most popular Supremes tracks like "You Can't Hurry Love," "Stop! In The Name of Love," "Baby Love" - all of which are still widely used in commercials, TV, films, etc. is a bit of stretch. Even just the title of "Stop!" invokes the iconic choreography with the stop hand.

[sup_fan]

But the question Mary posed wasn't which group earned Cindy the most money and fame. We know the answer to that question. It's an indisputable fact, the Supremes. The question posed was would Cindy have had more success if she had stayed with her original group. I read that as "which situation would have worked out for Cindy in the long run", because surely no one would suggest that song for song, or fame for fame, that any female group of the era was bigger than the Supremes. For me the answer lies in the fate of the non Diana Ross Supremes vs all the members of Labelle. Nona and Sarah were able to parlay their Labelle experience into long post-Labelle careers. While Mary Wilson has to be the most famous and most visible of girl group singers not named Diana Ross or Patti Labelle, she struggled to find her way out. Her books have to be the crowning glory of her post Supremes' career. Nona and Sarah wrote music, continued to record, etc. And it appears they all walked away from Labelle with their royalties intact. In the long run, Cindy might have fared better sticking with her group because the two groups did not offer the same post group opportunities. And we know the financial situation Cindy Supreme ultimately has ended up in.

yeah i was getting more focused on the idea of Labelle vs Sups - where would Cindy have been most overall successful. so i see i sort of took it down the wrong rabbit hole. although now that we discussing specifically that, i will at least explore the flip side to my argument. Cindy would not have received any royalties from songs prior to her joining. and then the question becomes what her contract stated. was she on a "probationary period" like Jean, Lynda and others later were? was she salaried for 18 months from being hired in July 67? when did she start earning royalties? if she didn't earn these until 18 months after starting, that would put her at Dec 68. so is it only releases after that point that count? or would she now start earning royalties on songs released prior? Like Love Child - released in Sept 68 so was she only paid a salary for that song or, starting in 12/68, did she start to earn the royalties?


but that's, again, getting us down a different rabbit hole lolol

as for your overall points of professional development and post-group success, i still stand by my analysis that cindy maintained a backing-only role during the sups not because she was forced or shoe-horned into that but because that's what she wanted to do and that's her area of expertise.

Nona was primarily responsible for the songwriting for labelle. Patti and Sarah weren't. seems as thought majority of the "labelle" image and sound was guided by Nona, even if Patti sang much of the lead vocals.

Sarah's post Labelle work seems to focus a little on a solo career and a lot on her long-term relationship with the Stones. and working with them. But vocally she is much much different from Cindy. Sarah had more lead vocal capabilities which seems to be how she was able to do more post group. but that's who she is, not necessarily something that developed due to LM or whatever.

Both Nona and Sarah had artistic voices that they needed to express. I just don't see Cindy in the same way. had she been in labelle, sure she would have had some featured vocal lines here and there. lord only knows what her spacewoman suit would have looked like lol. Labelle might have introduced her to more current, contemporary acts that then might have hired her for vocal backup. she could have done backgrounds with Sarah on some of those Stones work or something. Perhaps being labeled a "Supreme" made her viewed as less hip or less into rock or something. but Lynda, Scherrie, Susaye and even Mary have done some guest vocal backups so there's no reason to think cindy couldn't have too, had she wanted to

[RanRan79]

This is debatable. Yes, "Lady Marmalade" is an iconic song but the popularity of that song is being split with the 2001 cover by Pink, Lil' Kim, Christina Aguilera and Mya. A lot of people especially youth today are not associating the song with LaBelle. I agree that it's popularity has not been lost but say that it overshadows the most popular Supremes tracks like "You Can't Hurry Love," "Stop! In The Name of Love," "Baby Love" - all of which are still widely used in commercials, TV, films, etc. is a bit of stretch. Even just the title of "Stop!" invokes the iconic choreography with the stop hand.

I hear Patti's version way more than the 2001 version. I imagine the kids of 2001 associate the song with Pink and them, but they couldn't run from Patti's version.

And Brad, you know doggone well I would never refer to the Flo era Supremes as DRATS. I specifically said DRATS because the Flo Supremes' singles are extremely popular, but also aren't related to Cindy.

[RanRan79]

lord only knows what her spacewoman suit would have looked like lol.

Cindy would've killed 'em in that suit. Cindy's sexy is underrated, IMO.

[rod_rick]

yeah i was getting more focused on the idea of Labelle vs Sups - where would Cindy have been most overall successful. so i see i sort of took it down the wrong rabbit hole. although now that we discussing specifically that, i will at least explore the flip side to my argument. Cindy would not have received any royalties from songs prior to her joining. and then the question becomes what her contract stated. was she on a "probationary period" like Jean, Lynda and others later were? was she salaried for 18 months from being hired in July 67? when did she start earning royalties? if she didn't earn these until 18 months after starting, that would put her at Dec 68. so is it only releases after that point that count? or would she now start earning royalties on songs released prior? Like Love Child - released in Sept 68 so was she only paid a salary for that song or, starting in 12/68, did she start to earn the royalties?




but that's, again, getting us down a different rabbit hole lolol

as for your overall points of professional development and post-group success, i still stand by my analysis that cindy maintained a backing-only role during the sups not because she was forced or shoe-horned into that but because that's what she wanted to do and that's her area of expertise.

Nona was primarily responsible for the songwriting for labelle. Patti and Sarah weren't. seems as thought majority of the "labelle" image and sound was guided by Nona, even if Patti sang much of the lead vocals.

Sarah's post Labelle work seems to focus a little on a solo career and a lot on her long-term relationship with the Stones. and working with them. But vocally she is much much different from Cindy. Sarah had more lead vocal capabilities which seems to be how she was able to do more post group. but that's who she is, not necessarily something that developed due to LM or whatever.

Both Nona and Sarah had artistic voices that they needed to express. I just don't see Cindy in the same way. had she been in labelle, sure she would have had some featured vocal lines here and there. lord only knows what her spacewoman suit would have looked like lol. Labelle might have introduced her to more current, contemporary acts that then might have hired her for vocal backup. she could have done backgrounds with Sarah on some of those Stones work or something. Perhaps being labeled a "Supreme" made her viewed as less hip or less into rock or something. but Lynda, Scherrie, Susaye and even Mary have done some guest vocal backups so there's no reason to think cindy couldn't have too, had she wanted to

I might be in the minority but I never cared for Sarah's voice and believed me I've tried. Like Flo she has power and range but imo, no color to it. I have both her solo albums and I may have played once or twice. I can honestly say that I've listened to Cindy's solo work much more. I feel Cindy made the right choice becoming a Supreme. I think she should have stepped her game up vocally [[I heard the potential at different times) and made better financial choices.