Mary's choices

[sup_fan]

I really had hoped this would be more a discussion on Mary's choices on her management and career choices such as it took many years before she did her Up Close shows which really put a spotlight on her talent. Still, I should have expected that RTL and Dreamgirl would come up. Mary wasn't going to write a book and talk on TV about how gloriously talented Diana Ross is. She certainly acknowledged it even though she always said that she felt Flo was the best vocalist. When asked by Donahue, she said that Diana's success came from her talent. As for talking about Flo's rape, I am sure that was a touchy subject that she weighed putting in her book[[I am only guessing) but she also said she saw Diana in Vegas and said she was received well but when she asked to interview her for her book Diana said she didn't have the time. I am only guessing but I think Mary wanted to explain that it was not bitterness over Diana that caused Flo to act out and drink but it came from the rape which caused her to mistrust people and for her to perceive what she saw as injustices to be magnified. Perhaps, the public perception was Flo was bitter over Diana being singled out and acted out and became an alcoholic and died young. They may have agreed not to discuss it, but by doing so Mary humanized what was actually going on with Florence. She admired Florence's talent and she admired Diana's aggressive nature, even if it had some consequences to the group at times. Mary mentioned she was always late, a procrastinator and a bit of a chicken. I ended up reading a book that showed the good and bad of all three of them and it made me like all of them more. Hopefully we can discuss more about some of Mary's choices in her career.

mary was also, in these tv interviews, saying diana was a bitch. that's not a very strong endorsement. i don't know that mary necessarily meant diana was cruel or a "regina george" mean girl. maybe saying something like 'diana is a Type A personality - she knows what she wants, is willing to work for it and will not suffer fools"

but to the public, especially in the 80s, using a term like 'bitch' has a very negative connotation.

[RanRan79]

I really had hoped this would be more a discussion on Mary's choices on her management and career choices such as it took many years before she did her Up Close shows which really put a spotlight on her talent. Still, I should have expected that RTL and Dreamgirl would come up. Mary wasn't going to write a book and talk on TV about how gloriously talented Diana Ross is. She certainly acknowledged it even though she always said that she felt Flo was the best vocalist. When asked by Donahue, she said that Diana's success came from her talent. As for talking about Flo's rape, I am sure that was a touchy subject that she weighed putting in her book[[I am only guessing) but she also said she saw Diana in Vegas and said she was received well but when she asked to interview her for her book Diana said she didn't have the time. I am only guessing but I think Mary wanted to explain that it was not bitterness over Diana that caused Flo to act out and drink but it came from the rape which caused her to mistrust people and for her to perceive what she saw as injustices to be magnified. Perhaps, the public perception was Flo was bitter over Diana being singled out and acted out and became an alcoholic and died young. They may have agreed not to discuss it, but by doing so Mary humanized what was actually going on with Florence. She admired Florence's talent and she admired Diana's aggressive nature, even if it had some consequences to the group at times. Mary mentioned she was always late, a procrastinator and a bit of a chicken. I ended up reading a book that showed the good and bad of all three of them and it made me like all of them more. Hopefully we can discuss more about some of Mary's choices in her career.

Well sadly, when you start a topic about Mary Wilson, such as her choices, you leave the door wide open for attacks on her talent, backhanded compliments, and the opportunity to restart conversations around polarizing subjects such as RTL or Dreamgirl, giving some the opportunity to demonize her. Discussing the subject of Mary's decisions and expecting someone not to bring up her decision to write books or turn down RTL is kind of naive.

Diana has had a long and legendary career filled with highs and lows. It has allowed us to entertain threads about various aspects of her career without straying too far into controversial territory. Unfortunately that's not the case with Mary, or even Florence. While I could probably talk Flo all day, it's unfortunate that I cannot create threads about her for "fear" that things won't stay on topic and it will give some the opportunity to take shots. I find the best way to talk Flo and Mary is trying to focus on the music itself, like posting songs they sang lead on. It's still dangerous, but not as much a threat as the thread you created.

[floyjoy678]

I always thought that Mary and Diana had a weird relationship even back in the Supremes. From what I've gathered they were great friends but extremely competitive with one another. Diana has said a few times in interviews, etc that Mary "kept her on her toes". It all boils down though to that they had horrible communication and a lot of their issues could have been easily resolved had they just sat down and hashed things out in 1966.

Out of all of the autobiographies, Flo told the most balanced I felt. It's a shame we couldn't get more from her.

[marybrewster]

I'm not sure how true it is but I remember reading that Diana also wasn't happy about Mary discussing Flo's rape, something the three of them kept between themselves.

Was Diana mad at Precious for naming the rapist in her book?

[marybrewster]

mary was also, in these tv interviews, saying diana was a bitch. that's not a very strong endorsement. i don't know that mary necessarily meant diana was cruel or a "regina george" mean girl. maybe saying something like 'diana is a Type A personality - she knows what she wants, is willing to work for it and will not suffer fools"

but to the public, especially in the 80s, using a term like 'bitch' has a very negative connotation.

Can you provide a source please where Mary called Diana a bitch?

[RanRan79]

I really had hoped this would be more a discussion on Mary's choices on her management and career choices such as it took many years before she did her Up Close shows which really put a spotlight on her talent.

Those first few years of Mary's solo years was fraught with problems. There was the Motown lawsuit, the unproductive Motown solo deal, the disco album that should never have been, being ditched by Motown, leaving Pedro, finding herself broke, needing to provide for three children. She had a lot of odds stacked against her.

So Mary's first mistake might have been suing Motown. Maybe she would've been better served to leave the Supremes and immediately seek a deal somewhere else. I am not of the school of thought that Mary Wilson was unsignable. Not when I peruse my own collection of music, as well as discover old school music online and realize just how many questionably talented people got record deals. At another label Mary may have been able to carve out a hit making career at best, or a well respected, if perhaps spotty or marginally successful, music career at worst.

I realize that part of falling back onto the Supremes thing was survival. She had three children to feed and if the bookings came easier with a Supremes act than a rebranded Mary Wilson act, it's hard to fault her for doing what she needed to do. Had Pedro had balls, he could've provided for the kids and allowed Mary the room to find herself. That being said, the Supremes schtick was a mistake. She needed to move away from that. I have a feeling that she shopped the GD tracks long after the sound was dated. Had she shopped them immediately upon being dropped by Motown, she may have landed a good deal. Still, say around 1983, it was time for new demos. It was a new era, new sounds, and Mary needed to catch up.

When she did try stepping out of the Supremes thing, she was rocker Mary, or pop Mary, neither of which really fit her. She should have paid attention to what someone like Anita Baker, Brenda Russell, Sade, or even Roberta Flack and Dionne Warwick were doing at the time. Hell, she could have even did something like what Gladys Knight was doing. Mary's soulful side is underrated. "Don't Get Mad, Get Even"? She should have been mad at herself.

Natalie Cole's transition from the 80s to the 90s is one of the best examples in the history of music, IMO. Her decision to go the jazz route after all the years of success she had in R&B and pop was genius, and resulted in her biggest album ever. I think both Mary and Diana would've been better served had they set their sights on a similar career path in the 90s. Mary would have killed with jazzy material at a good label at that point.

So I think when you boil it all down, a lot of Mary's problem was lack of good management. She was incapable of managing herself. She needed one of the best in the biz, or someone new with innovative ideas. It does not appear she ever lucked up on that and her post Supremes career suffered for it.

[RanRan79]

the contract with the promoters wouldn't have been a full itemization of what happened on stage in the act, the dialog, the set design and colors, gowns, etc. the contract would have been for the number of dates and the financials. The artist doesn't have much impact on this or the cities played - that's the job of the promoter to organize.

my impression of Mary's comments is that she wanted to be involved with the structure of the show, the design of the act, etc.

True, but the issue is the contract with the promoters would have been signed and legally binding. So she would have had to be there regardless of whether or not Diana ultimately decided to include Mary in decisions or not. Mary would have been locked in, and that's a no no. Diana and Mary should have ironed out details among them, and if Mary didn't trust Diana's word, there could have been a contract between them stating Mary's involvement with the creative. Once that was locked in, then Mary could sign with the promoters. Bottomline being these two grown ass women should have been communicating before anyone else even got involved.

[RanRan79]

true Dreamgirl isn't a trashy as CHMR or ever Sup Faith. certainly it's better than All That Glittered

but it definitely was a negative portrayal of DR. mary does little to show diana as working with Mary to help flo. according to other accounts, frankly everyone at first tried to help flo along and keep her from falling apart. even berry. but eventually each started to realize it wasn't going to work. D and M tried to keep things as smooth as possible for quite a while but, again, eventually they had to make a choice too. That's quite a different portrayal of things versus how mary writes it. there are all few acknowledgements of how unique a singer and performer diana was and how that helped to finally break them through. much of the tone is about how mary felt she and flo were held back to allow diana to succeed. frankly, there was no need to hold them or anyone back because diana was going to be a superstar regardless.

of course mary has every right to write the story she felt she wanted to tell. but my above point is that, even if she did feel as she did, publicly trashing diana would 1) besmirch the overall reputation of the supremes and 2) eliminate any hope of mary working with diana. by the mid80s, mary's career was limited at best. and frankly that's a pretty generous description. being able to occasionally work with diana would have been financially very beneficial

Mary Wilson has got to the be the only writer of an autobiography whose job was to extol the virtues of someone else. She didn't owe it to Diana to write a book that praised every single thing the woman did. Mary claimed she was writing about her life as a Supreme. And judging from the account, there came a time when Diana made Mary's life as a Supreme less than dreamy. She has a right to tell that story. Diana is responsible for her own actions, same as Mary. If you don't want a book written detailing the way you treat people, don't treat people that way.

I kind of see Mary's point if she did, as Maniac claims, make a statement about everyone recognizing how great Diana is and not feeling the need to go there as much. Certainly by the time of Dreamgirl nobody needed a book to tell them of the greatness of Diana Ross. But Mary, and Florence, didn't have that luxury. Sadly, Mary didn't even go much into her own greatness, often detailing how insecure she was. To her credit she did make sure people knew how great Flo was.

But if the book is about the story of the Supremes, and Mary's life therein, then it makes sense that some stuff has to be told. I still feel Diana's private life had nothing to do with the Supremes- not really- except her relationship with Gordy, and should have been kept out of it. But just like nobody has a problem with Mary writing about Flo being drunk, or showing up late, or, as Mary states in her book "making us look bad", then no one should have a problem with Mary talking about the times Diana did this or that which created hard feelings or created tension.

And Mary does clearly state in Dreamgirl that she and Diana did what they could to help Florence when her drinking became a problem. Both she and Florence have talked about how they felt they were pushed aside to make Diana Ross a star. Who are we to say that's not the case? I think in some instances it's clear that the two of them were relegated to a certain position and Diana was elevated. It did not stop the public from loving them as a trio, or individually, but Diana got the push she rightly deserved, and I don't see it as a stretch to imagine the way this may have come across to Flo and Mary, either intentionally or unintentionally.

I think Mary gets a bad rap for writing this book because she was the first to publicly say what a lot of people "knew" or suspected privately: that Diana Ross wasn't perfect. Mary writing it became worst than the things Diana did, which makes absolutely no sense to me.

[sup_fan]

I really had hoped this would be more a discussion on Mary's choices on her management and career choices such as it took many years before she did her Up Close shows which really put a spotlight on her talent. Still, I should have expected that RTL and Dreamgirl would come up. Mary wasn't going to write a book and talk on TV about how gloriously talented Diana Ross is. She certainly acknowledged it even though she always said that she felt Flo was the best vocalist. When asked by Donahue, she said that Diana's success came from her talent. As for talking about Flo's rape, I am sure that was a touchy subject that she weighed putting in her book[[I am only guessing) but she also said she saw Diana in Vegas and said she was received well but when she asked to interview her for her book Diana said she didn't have the time. I am only guessing but I think Mary wanted to explain that it was not bitterness over Diana that caused Flo to act out and drink but it came from the rape which caused her to mistrust people and for her to perceive what she saw as injustices to be magnified. Perhaps, the public perception was Flo was bitter over Diana being singled out and acted out and became an alcoholic and died young. They may have agreed not to discuss it, but by doing so Mary humanized what was actually going on with Florence. She admired Florence's talent and she admired Diana's aggressive nature, even if it had some consequences to the group at times. Mary mentioned she was always late, a procrastinator and a bit of a chicken. I ended up reading a book that showed the good and bad of all three of them and it made me like all of them more. Hopefully we can discuss more about some of Mary's choices in her career.

to address your initial point, her career choices and decisions were [[IMO and by necessity) focused on generating income rather than career development. during the 70s with the Sups, she was working on re-establishing the group as a contemporary pop presence.

I just watched some of What's Love Got To Do With It and it made me reflect on the whole situation with Tina. how she really was able to rebuild her career. she was smart in insisting in the divorce proceedings that she got full rights of the name "Tina Turner" she knew that was her brand and what she had been building up.

she then was doing cabaret work and got herself connected with a manager that said she had to simply fire everyone from the cabaret stuff and start clean. new musicians, new outfits, etc. completely drop all of that older stuff and begin new so that she could get a contract and deal

there are a lot of differences of course between Mary and Tina. Tina was a strong solo presence and also did have that name recognition.

[RanRan79]

I always thought that Mary and Diana had a weird relationship even back in the Supremes. From what I've gathered they were great friends but extremely competitive with one another. Diana has said a few times in interviews, etc that Mary "kept her on her toes". It all boils down though to that they had horrible communication and a lot of their issues could have been easily resolved had they just sat down and hashed things out in 1966.

Out of all of the autobiographies, Flo told the most balanced I felt. It's a shame we couldn't get more from her.

Communication, or lack thereof, is usually the cause of relationship breakdown. I always thought it would've been great if their mothers had sat them down and told them to get it together. I don't know how much the Mama Supremes knew about what was going on in the group when things started to turn for the worst. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for young women to keep their mothers out of their business. But the Supremes were largely under the influence of a man who had some misogyny issues, and by some accounts, often played the ladies against themselves. Motherly wisdom was probably what the girls needed at this point, and I imagine that if the moms had teamed up, the Supremes would have been no match for them.

[RanRan79]

Was Diana mad at Precious for naming the rapist in her book?

Why would she? Who cared about protecting his identity?

[marybrewster]

The story of the "friction" in the Supremes is no different than any other group. The Beatles, the Mama's and the Papa's, Fleetwood Mac, the Eagles, the Shirelles, the Beach Boys, and the Ramones [[among others) have all famously, and publicly, had feuds. Many have aired their "grievances" via a "tell all". I'm sure fans of these performers all have taken "sides". So I put Diana vs. Mary and Mary vs. Diana in the same sequined clutch.

[marybrewster]

Why would she? Who cared about protecting his identity?

Exactly.

You can't hardly tell a secret if it's no secret.

[marybrewster]

Communication, or lack thereof, is usually the cause of relationship breakdown. I always thought it would've been great if their mothers had sat them down and told them to get it together. I don't know how much the Mama Supremes knew about what was going on in the group when things started to turn for the worst. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for young women to keep their mothers out of their business. But the Supremes were largely under the influence of a man who had some misogyny issues, and by some accounts, often played the ladies against themselves. Motherly wisdom was probably what the girls needed at this point, and I imagine that if the moms had teamed up, the Supremes would have been no match for them.

I wonder if Mrs. Ross had stayed on tour with the group if things might have ended differently. Clearly Diana, Mary, and Florence had a genuine respect for her. When was Ernestine retired from the road, in 1965?

[RanRan79]

Exactly.

You can't hardly tell a secret if it's no secret.

Well it is a bit different. Until Mary's book the public did not know about Flo's rape. And while the 80s were certainly far more progressive about a lot of things, including sexual assault, there was still a stigma attached, as there is, believe it or not, still today. In addition to the story about Diana having a problem with this, I also read somewhere that the Ballards had an issue with it as well. Of course by the time Maxine wrote her book Flo's rape was "common" knowledge.

[RanRan79]

I wonder if Mrs. Ross had stayed on tour with the group if things might have ended differently. Clearly Diana, Mary, and Florence had a genuine respect for her. When was Ernestine retired from the road, in 1965?

I think she only traveled with them for an out of town date or so for a couple days at a time. She was on the Dick Clark tour which was a summer tour. Remember Mrs. Ross, like Mrs. Ballard and Mrs. Wilson, still had children at home, so traveling the globe with the Supremes probably wasn't an option.

[Spreadinglove21]

Didn't Florence report the rape to the police? Her rapist was arrested and brought to trial and Florence went on the witness stand to testify and he was convicted and was sentence to prison?

If yes, then it's a matter of public record. And Florence should be commended for getting justice.

[reese]

Didn't Florence report the rape to the police? Her rapist was arrested and brought to trial and Florence went on the witness stand to testify and he was convicted and was sentence to prison?

If yes, then it's a matter of public record. And Florence should be commended for getting justice.

It depends on which book you read.

Mary wrote that Flo reported the rape, identified her attacker, and he was sent to prison.

In Maxine Ballard's book, she wrote that Flo's attacker was beaten up by Flo's brothers but she wrote that he never went to prison.

[soren1974]

It has always struck me as strange that despite all the publicity Mary was enjoying with her first book, she was not able to secure a record deal, apart from the two singles she recorded with Ian Levine 1987 & 1989, Don't Get Mad, Get Even and Oooh Child respectively, none of which she even mentions in her books. Ian Levine, never one to mince his words, said: After recording two singles, she hired a very tough manager, who persuaded me to part with a lot of money for Mary to record an album, assuring me of Mary's full co-operation in promoting it. He was incredibly persuasive, so I gave in. Once I parted with the money, not one note got sung, and I was told to basically take a flying leap. But it got worse. She then did an interview in Blues And Soul, claiming I had ripped off all the former Motown artists. I produced the contracts for her album to Blues And Soul, proved that she had not honoured her contract, and they printed an immediate retraction. So the fifteen Mary Wilson tracks I paid for still remain unrecorded, and people still privately tell me how much she criticises me. Kind of strange coming from someone who made a fortune with a best selling book which exposed her former friend, Diana Ross. Florence Ballard was quoted as saying that at least she knew where she stood with Diana, as opposed to Mary. Nevertheless, personal feelings aside, I still admire her talent and still have artistic respect for her.

Among those unfinished tracks were songs called Seven Days A Week, Never Is A Long Time, Liar, One Night With You [[which she ended up recording a new version of for her Walk The Line album), and a song by Michael & Brenda Sutton called Nothing's Too Good For You.

[sup_fan]

very few labels are interested in signing someone that is 43 years old. when Dreamgirl came out, what motivation would a label have for signing her? ok so she was a supreme but the group's heyday was 20 years prior and she had essentially done little to nothing in the meantime to develop a solid resume.

I don't know if mary was ever considering going to another label - like in 73 or 77/78. i can only assume that if a label was actually courting her and they offered her a deal, she would take it. certainly after her lawsuit went public in fall 77 she would have been open to an offer. and given finances, practically any offer would have been better than the nothing she had.

but i think the sad fact of the matter is that no label wanted her. the last several years of the supremes shows/stage acts were disappointing. she had a handful of leads on some albums - some quite strong, some rather weak. 2 songs as co-lead that crept into the top 40, one eventually eeking out a gold record. but that's it.

so now we're 9 years after the Supremes officially disbanded and there really isn't anything more to show

[RanRan79]

It depends on which book you read.

Mary wrote that Flo reported the rape, identified her attacker, and he was sent to prison.

In Maxine Ballard's book, she wrote that Flo's attacker was beaten up by Flo's brothers but she wrote that he never went to prison.

That might be perhaps the oddest portion of Mary's book to me. It's a huge leap from street justice to legal justice. And for the people who knew what went down, how do you explain lying about what happened?

Mary says Flo only spoke about what happened to she and Diana when Flo initially told them about the rape and then again when Flo testified against him. The only conclusions I can come to are that:

1) There was some form of law enforcement involvement and Mary's memory was cloudy. One of Flo's brothers was a cop and it would make sense that the family would have gone to him, either before or after they fucked him up. While women, especially Black women, rarely reported rape, when they did, the accusation was often stated but there was rarely arrest, let alone conviction. There might have been a report, Flo may have been questioned, leading to Mary's recollection.

2) Florence lied about what happened to the scumbag. Maybe Mary and Diana asked her about it and Flo felt better saying she put him away rather than he got away with what he had done.

[RanRan79]

Didn't Florence report the rape to the police? Her rapist was arrested and brought to trial and Florence went on the witness stand to testify and he was convicted and was sentence to prison?

If yes, then it's a matter of public record. And Florence should be commended for getting justice.

I don't know about the age cutoff in Michigan, but most likely at 17, any legal involvement in what happened to her would have been a juvenile case and closed to the public.

[Spreadinglove21]

According to the Wikipedia entry on Reggie Harding, he didn't serve time for rape. Though he would later have quite a criminal record and ended up shot and killed in Detroit in the early 70s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggie_Harding

[kenneth]

This has been a fascinating discussion to read and I appreciate all the views on this subject. There's certainly a lot to "unpack" here as they say.

I think it was earlier in this thread where it was discussed how Jean came to replace Mary. Or it may have been a separate thread, but I'd still like to pose the question. I have never understood how some folks have maintained that Terrell sounded a lot like Ross. To me they are nothing at all alike in either their vocal qualities or their delivery. Terrell has always sounded to me much more "church," much more in the "traditional" Motown style. She has a strong voice with a lot of color in it. The downside to me has been she isn't always good at showing much emotion in her singing. There are very notable exceptions such as "5:30 Plane" and others.

Ross, on the other hand, to me is more of a song "stylist," not a strong voice but one which she employs to her best advantage. While one can argue that Flo had a better, technically stronger voice, her vocals never had the distinctive sound that would bring her many fans or sell millions of records.

But does anyone else feel that Ross and Terrell shared certain vocal qualities? I can hear comparisons between Terrell and Syreeta, which has also been documented, but just don't hear any between Terrell and Ross.

Sorry for hijacking the thread...but you all know I always do that...

[Ollie9]

I think a new album by The Supremes with all of the publicity that tour was getting, would’ve had a big chance of hitting if the music was good. If the tour had gone off as originally planned, Without any negative press, the market would’ve been ripe for it. For years Cher couldn’t sell a record to save her life, she changed things around came out with better music and became a hit all over again in her 40s! 99% of the time it’s all about the music.

Assuming a 10 track album, Diana could have sang lead on seven of those songs, Mary two and Cindy one. The only question mark being in 2000, would Diana have been prepared to play backing singer to Mary and Cindy led songs?.

[reese]

Assuming a 10 track album, Diana could have sang lead on seven of those songs, Mary two and Cindy one. The only question mark being in 2000, would Diana have been prepared to play backing singer to Mary and Cindy led songs?.

It is interesting to think what a 2000 Supremes album might have sounded like. In regards to singing background, I think Diana might have found it a bit fun to do something a bit different.

[reese]

This has been a fascinating discussion to read and I appreciate all the views on this subject. There's certainly a lot to "unpack" here as they say.

I think it was earlier in this thread where it was discussed how Jean came to replace Mary. Or it may have been a separate thread, but I'd still like to pose the question. I have never understood how some folks have maintained that Terrell sounded a lot like Ross. To me they are nothing at all alike in either their vocal qualities or their delivery. Terrell has always sounded to me much more "church," much more in the "traditional" Motown style. She has a strong voice with a lot of color in it. The downside to me has been she isn't always good at showing much emotion in her singing. There are very notable exceptions such as "5:30 Plane" and others.

Ross, on the other hand, to me is more of a song "stylist," not a strong voice but one which she employs to her best advantage. While one can argue that Flo had a better, technically stronger voice, her vocals never had the distinctive sound that would bring her many fans or sell millions of records.

But does anyone else feel that Ross and Terrell shared certain vocal qualities? I can hear comparisons between Terrell and Syreeta, which has also been documented, but just don't hear any between Terrell and Ross.

Sorry for hijacking the thread...but you all know I always do that...

I never really heard Diana and Jean as being similar, other than both having high-pitched vocals. I also never thought of Jean as being more rhythm and blues or soul oriented. To me, she's as much of a pop vocalist as Diana is.

[Ollie9]

It is interesting to think what a 2000 Supremes album might have sounded like. In regards to singing background, I think Diana might have found it a bit fun to do something a bit different.

Perhaps if the album of Supremes songs she recorded with Nile Rodgers in 2000 is ever released we will have some idea.

[reese]

Perhaps if the album of Supremes songs she recorded with Nile Rodgers in 2000 is ever released we will have some idea.

Was that actually an album of remakes or just remixes?

[Ollie9]

Was that actually an album of remakes or just remixes?

Remakes i believe reese.

[reese]

Remakes i believe reese.

Hmmm. Artists remaking their own hits can go either way. Maybe it is just as well it wasn't released.