Mary's choices

[jim aka jtigre99]

Mary Wilson certainly had the talent, looks, glamour and stage presence but something always seemed to be in her way. I read Freda Payne's book and Mary was supposed to do an album, they had recorded tracks and then something happened with her management and they decided not to do it. Mary always said she needed to record, so why pass on it? First, choosing Pedro to run the Supremes was a choice. He alienated Motown and the other Supremes. Mary's managers seemed to make terrible decisions for her, her last one [[I won't mention names) seemed to negotiate her out of a number of deals. Her lawyer seemed to make unreasonable demands and I understand his wife [[her assistant) was not always friendly to fans. And of course, TT as road manager who wrote some books and was not always a help to Mary. Also, the last assistant who found Mary posted on You Tube about it, I couldn't even listen. Now, I know Mary was frightened of being destitute like Flo had become after she left the group and even Diana had only 250K she could put her hands on when she left so she had the big deal with RCA to get her money. So, like Flo and Diana she was trying to make sure she became financially secure and didn't always surround herself with the right people to achieve artistic and financial success. In fact, Mary's determination to stay relevant is what kept her relevant. Does anyone have a different perspective?

[sup_fan]

this is a huge topic and potentially a sensitive one. there is a HUGE difference between being a singer/star and managing a recording career. Mary did not have the business acumen for the later. But frankly neither did Diana Ross. the difference is they were both in these positions at radically different times in their careers. Diana essentially trashed her recording career in the US with the RCA deal but she could always live off of her amazing Motown legacy. and while she made terrible musical decisions at RCA, she made a shit ton of money through incredible wise investments, by jumping to RCA for a huge deal, etc.

Mary was left to her own devices for the most part. i think the two primary mistakes were 1) trying to establish herself as the primary star of the Supremes as opposed to more of a shared concept and 2) Pedro.

Also Mary was very much stuck in the "Supremes" lifestyle. she was determined to maintain a public image of this rich, carefree glamour girl. that pressure could have contributed to quite a few mis steps too. plus the issue of drugs. all of this adds up to someone have to sometimes make career decisions that were more for the immediate pay off than longer term benefits.

[carlo]

Yes, I would also agree that this is a sensitive topic, so I'm going to do my best to not step on any toes here. It's no secret that Mary did not have the same kind of continuous financial stream to allow her to secure a solid and reputable team around her. If you don't have a solid cash flow always coming in, you're going to have a harder time being able to pay those monthly fees to your manager, lawyer, etc. This is why most of her team was always a revolving door of different individuals, especially in regards to her managers and booking agents. This is also not that uncommon in Hollywood. Barbra Streisand is one of the very lucky few to have had the same great manager for 50+ years. There were a number of times when she had no manager, hence Pedro, and then it happened again for a time, in recent years. I don't think I'm divulging any huge secrets here, as this commonly happens to most artists who are not "A-List" names. Hollywood is a tough place to be in. This is also why she depended on the generous service of various fans over the years, which included me taking care of her website for a few years until I had to move on with my life, which she was very kind and understanding of. This discussion reminds me of Chaka Khan, who made the mistake of hiring her hair stylist on as her manager, very recently. I think it sounds like she has new representation now...thank God.

Mary made the best of what she had and whomever she could find, who could do the right job. That was part of what made her a real survivor. In her later years, she usually only agreed to take someone on if they could be vouched for, by someone else. That was the case with me. However, doing things this way is not 100% fool proof. Sometimes it means that you inadvertently attract the wrong people, who are wanting to get close to you for the wrong reasons, and they may have ulterior motives. One thing I know for sure is that in her later years, Mary did learn how to spot the wolves. She was always willing to entertain them for a moment, in order to hear them out, but she usually saw their true colours and knew when to cut things off. I saw this first hand. She learned from all of her earlier experiences.

In the case of her last assistant, it's my understanding, based on his own words, that he had not yet formally started working for her and was in Vegas, under a trial period. I think when she had passed, he had been there for less than a week, and was heading to Mary's house for the first time, which was when she passed. It was unlucky timing. In regards to the YouTube interviews he did...I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that this young man was/is still young and ended up in a situation that he was too young to know about how to process and deal with. I know a lot of fans came for him and were understandably upset, due to the private information he shared...however, I don't think he shared anything over-the-top earth-shaking. I personally would have kept those details private, out of respect for her family, but we all do things when we are young and don't know better. Over time, we learn and do better. I'm saying this humbly and respectfully, as again, I know this is a sensitive topic.

In regards to the late 70's, I personally think Mary should have never gone solo and she should have stuck it out with The Supremes, into the 80's and beyond. If nothing else, maybe she would have had an easier time with retaining The Supremes' name. Handsight is 20/20 though. I'm sure she never anticipated the outcome, once she had left Motown.

I also noticed that part of Freda's book, Jim, where she mentioned that her "Come See About Me" album was originally supposed to be Mary's project. My guess was that perhaps there was a disagreement over the financial aspect of the project and this was why Mary ultimately passed on it.

[sup_fan]

i'll also join in on a point that was a career decision that was more in mary's control and different approaches might have had more positive long-term impact

the issue of her relationship with Diana

i'm not criticizing her for having her own personal feelings in terms of what Diana did, how things played out within the group, etc. of course mary is entitled to her opinion on things and that opinion is a valid one.

the decision though for taking this public was mary's decision. and IMO was not in her or the group's best interest. My opinion on the Dreamgirl book is that she and/or the editor decided to push the book more into the "sensational" realm and that the goal was to re-invigorate interest in mary and lead to a new record deal. at this point, mary was already in her early 40s and had really no solo career to speak of. the odds of kickstarting one at this point was so very remote. so the decision to alienate Diana and Motown was not a wise one. again, if she personally felt this way - ok that's fine. but she was a student of Berry's and Motown's and was well-versed in PR and the idea of public opinion. she should have been able to see that, while she would benefit from an immediate influx in cash, the longer-term prospect of having a positive working relationship with Diana or Motonw would be trashed.

If there had been a positive public relationship between D and M, perhaps there might have been more mini reunions. like what if M and C had joined Diana for the medley of Sup hits during Super Bowl XXX? Diana had also told the FLO's that she was so pleased with what they were doing and would perhaps like to tour with them. if Mary had been on good terms with them or even participating with the FLO's then it could have been so much easier to go these things. and the financial benefit of these would have been very strong for mary

[carlo]

Well said, sup_fan. I agree.

[sup_fan]

ok now i'm totally geeked up with revisionist history lolol.

image if Diana had done SB XXX. she starts out with a medley of The Boss-I'm Coming Out-Chain Reaction. The Reach out and Touch - and she introduces M and C who come and join her on stage as the announcers in the stadium announce "the reunion of DRATS!" the girls do a medley of Stop, You can't hurry love, you keep me hanging on. the girls exits and Diana then finish with Take Me Higher and IWS

[reese]

ok now i'm totally geeked up with revisionist history lolol.

image if Diana had done SB XXX. she starts out with a medley of The Boss-I'm Coming Out-Chain Reaction. The Reach out and Touch - and she introduces M and C who come and join her on stage as the announcers in the stadium announce "the reunion of DRATS!" the girls do a medley of Stop, You can't hurry love, you keep me hanging on. the girls exits and Diana then finish with Take Me Higher and IWS

This would have been great, similar to what Beyonce did when she included Kelly and Michelle in her Super Bowl spot.

[carlo]

ok now i'm totally geeked up with revisionist history lolol.

image if Diana had done SB XXX. she starts out with a medley of The Boss-I'm Coming Out-Chain Reaction. The Reach out and Touch - and she introduces M and C who come and join her on stage as the announcers in the stadium announce "the reunion of DRATS!" the girls do a medley of Stop, You can't hurry love, you keep me hanging on. the girls exits and Diana then finish with Take Me Higher and IWS

I like that idea, sup_fan. Reading your post also made me think of Beyonce's Destiny's Child reunion at the Superbowl. Although, if that Supremes reunion had happened, they would have had to scrap Diana's helicopter exit, otherwise there would have been the risk of Diana and Mary pushing each other out of that helicopter. They would have been fighting as to whom would be seen in the camera shots of the helicopter take-off. Lol.

[sup_fan]

I like that idea, sup_fan. Reading your post also made me think of Beyonce's Destiny's Child reunion at the Superbowl. Although, if that Supremes reunion had happened, they would have had to scrap Diana's helicopter exit, otherwise there would have been the risk of Diana and Mary pushing each other out of that helicopter. They would have been fighting as to whom would be seen in the camera shots of the helicopter take-off. Lol.

haha - i am a fan of DC and i was happy to see them. frankly would have liked more of them on the set but i realized it was a B show. she was scheduled and the girls were there just for a brief appearance. that's how i thought about it in my fantasy sequence lol. M and C would emerge on stage and then exit. so Diana could still have her overall show and would still exit via helicopter! lol

[marybrewster]

From the beginning, the Supremes had Berry, and Motown, backing them 100%, and making every decision for them: where they would perform, what they would sing, what they would wear, where they would stay, what they would eat, what time they would sh*t. This changed slightly as Diana took more "control" in the group. But for the most part, if Berry said "jump" they did.

When Diana left, this continued. Berry guided her career until the early 80's when she grabbed the RCA golden ticket.

Mary was left in the dust, left to her own devices. Mary lived like it was 1966 and the champagne was flowing. But there was no more sequinned life vest. Sunk or swim! No one to guide her, only misguide her. No one to give two F's if she wore a TCB swirl gown barefoot. So she did the best she could.

[sup_fan]

i think it was Randy that wrote that Diana was also interested in learning EVERYONE'S role. the engineers, the producers. obviously she was much more involved with the planning of the shows and certainly her special material. Gordy might have been calling the shots but Diana was certainly no push over. I could easily see her offering her opinions and ideas in, perhaps, the Afro Vogue segment.

all of this set her up well for when she started to take more control of things in the 70s. she and Joe Layton designed the whole show for the Evening With tour. they created an exciting 2-act show that sort of is a tour through her life. the tribute to the girls before her, the lengthy supremes and motown section, her children. of course i'm sure Gordy had input and approved it. but she was definitely taking the things she'd learned through the years and applying them.

M, C and F were not nearly as involved throughout the 60s. partly because they weren't asked! Mary even goes into this somewhat in Sup Faith as she talks about having to take on more of the management and planning. she said that in years prior she'd never given a second thought to what all went into touring - dealing with new orchestrations, choreography, gowns, logistics, etc.

Certainly very few people could just pick this up on their own - it takes mentoring, learning, trial and error. Diana definitely seemed to take advantage of her Supremes years to build a base from which she could start to take a more active role. M, F and C didn't

[lakeside]

Does anyone know if Mary was ever asked to join the FLOS? Did they reform in the mid to late 80's? Not sure what was going on with Mary's career at that point. I guess she was still struggling to find a solo niche?

[reese]

all of this set her up well for when she started to take more control of things in the 70s. she and Joe Layton designed the whole show for the Evening With tour. they created an exciting 2-act show that sort of is a tour through her life. the tribute to the girls before her, the lengthy supremes and motown section, her children. of course i'm sure Gordy had input and approved it. but she was definitely taking the things she'd learned through the years and applying them.

According to Joe Layton, Berry had no input into AN EVENING WITH... and it drove him crazy. When Berry first saw the show, he was surprised that Diana wasn't doing THE LADY IS A TRAMP. When he asked Gil Askey about it, Gil told him that Diana was tired of singing it but Berry told him to put it back into the show. So that was Berry's contribution.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Does anyone know if Mary was ever asked to join the FLOS? Did they reform in the mid to late 80's? Not sure what was going on with Mary's career at that point. I guess she was still struggling to find a solo niche?

Motown initially through Suzanne wanted a Supremes reunion ala the Temps in the mid 80's and it was to be Mary, Cindy and Scherrie. Mary spoke with Berry and found he wasn't really behind the idea that it was Suzanne's idea and she felt without him behind it, it wasn't worth it since she was still thinking solo. In the mid 80's the FLOs formed around the time of Dreamgirls when Superstar International asked Scherrie, who recorded for them, to do it. She thought of Mary and Cindy. Mary declined. Cindy suggested Jean and it became Scherrie, Cindy and Jean. Then Cindy decided to do her solo instead of the FLOs[[she really didn't tour or record with them) and Lynda took her place.

[BobbyC]

I usually don't post on this kind of thread, but after re-reading Call Her Miss Ross I can only say I think Mary's timidness in the 60's really allowed DR to take over. She should have stood up. Yes Florence acted out and did things the wrong way, but would she have reached her limit if she had Mary back her up early on? Ancient history but that much is clear to be. By the time Mary started to stand up it was too late.

[sup_fan]

i will point out that i don't really fault M or F with their choices. actually i'd describe them at "normal" since it seems they reacted to events and handed situations just as any 21 year old would do. same with their approach to business. they were young women just starting out.

it's just that diana wasn't normal! lol and i mean that in a good way she had a drive that was unlike anything a typical 21 year old would demonstrate. she also had a strong sense of perfectionism

[lakeside]

Motown initially through Suzanne wanted a Supremes reunion ala the Temps in the mid 80's and it was to be Mary, Cindy and Scherrie. Mary spoke with Berry and found he wasn't really behind the idea that it was Suzanne's idea and she felt without him behind it, it wasn't worth it since she was still thinking solo. In the mid 80's the FLOs formed around the time of Dreamgirls when Superstar International asked Scherrie, who recorded for them, to do it. She thought of Mary and Cindy. Mary declined. Cindy suggested Jean and it became Scherrie, Cindy and Jean. Then Cindy decided to do her solo instead of the FLOs[[she really didn't tour or record with them) and Lynda took her place.

Thank you for the info. I wonder if Mary ever regretted not joining and if she had how the FLOS would have fared? Her solo shows often included 2 other girls anyhow and she was often billed as Mary Wilson of The Supremes or Mary Wilson and the Supremes. I saw one concert where she was billed as Mary Wilson/The Supremes.
So, 'The Supremes' were certainly part and parcel to Mary's show a lot.

[sup_fan]

having general and occasional interactions between the women is one thing - working together is something completely different lol

I don't know that Jean and Mary or Lynda and Mary could have a strong working relationship. obviously they didn't in the 70s. of course time passing can smooth over things but not sure how it would have worked.

had they been able to work things out, it certainly would have made bookings and appearances much easier and much stronger. Motown gave L and S permission to tour and produce those cds. if mary had been involved and now all 3 were former supremes [[plus one was an original and also owned a % of the name) they might have allowed even greater liberties. i don't know if the group could have official named themselves "The Supremes" but anything is possible.

[marybrewster]

i will point out that i don't really fault M or F with their choices. actually i'd describe them at "normal" since it seems they reacted to events and handed situations just as any 21 year old would do. same with their approach to business. they were young women just starting out.

it's just that diana wasn't normal! lol and i mean that in a good way she had a drive that was unlike anything a typical 21 year old would demonstrate. she also had a strong sense of perfectionism

She was also banging the Chairman of the Board, lol.

[Spreadinglove21]

I'm sure another influence on her choices was that she was the sole support for her children so some of her decisions were made to get income now, hence hitting the oldies circuit and being billed with Supremes closely tied to her.

[thanxal]

She was also banging the Chairman of the Board, lol.

Sinatra?!?!? [[/snark).

[TomatoTom123]

Sinatra?!?!? [[/snark).

My first thought was General Johnson [LOL!]

[jobeterob]

It’s easy to be critical of Mary’s choices-but she said the albums of the 70’s Supremes never sold right from the beginning - the fall off was significant and when the money slows down, it often dictates your decisions and then it looks like you’ve made poor choices.

The biggest error she made was overplaying her hand on RTL - she could have made a small fortune in a couple of months but she just couldn’t get beyond her pride. Maybe she was glad she stood up for what she viewed as her principles, but she lost a couple million dollars she could have used.

Failing to stick with the Supremes Luke Otis did with the Temptations, I believe, was also a long term error.

[thanxal]

My first thought was General Johnson [LOL!]

Very clever!

[marybrewster]

It’s easy to be critical of Mary’s choices-but she said the albums of the 70’s Supremes never sold right from the beginning - the fall off was significant and when the money slows down, it often dictates your decisions and then it looks like you’ve made poor choices.

The biggest error she made was overplaying her hand on RTL - she could have made a small fortune in a couple of months but she just couldn’t get beyond her pride. Maybe she was glad she stood up for what she viewed as her principles, but she lost a couple million dollars she could have used.

Failing to stick with the Supremes Luke Otis did with the Temptations, I believe, was also a long term error.

My only opinion about RTL is that even with Mary and Cindy, it still would have never worked. Too much time had passed, too many things left unresolved, and too ambitious of a tour. They were set to play Target Center in Minneapolis and wouldn't have even come close to selling out, short of Flo Ballard making an appearance.

[jobeterob]

My only opinion about RTL is that even with Mary and Cindy, it still would have never worked. Too much time had passed, too many things left unresolved, and too ambitious of a tour. They were set to play Target Center in Minneapolis and wouldn't have even come close to selling out, short of Flo Ballard making an appearance.

I've wondered that as well

And sadly I don't think Flo would have done it either

[TheMotownManiac]

ok now i'm totally geeked up with revisionist history lolol.

image if Diana had done SB XXX. she starts out with a medley of The Boss-I'm Coming Out-Chain Reaction. The Reach out and Touch - and she introduces M and C who come and join her on stage as the announcers in the stadium announce "the reunion of DRATS!" the girls do a medley of Stop, You can't hurry love, you keep me hanging on. the girls exits and Diana then finish with Take Me Higher and IWS

that is such a great idea! Set list:

im coming out
upside down

intro M &C who emerge from rainbow fog
Stop!
YCHL
YKMHO
Mary and Cindy disappear behind fireworks as Diana descends to stage two ain’t no Mountain high enough

Aint No Mountain
I will survive
take me higher

You had a brilliant idea! Except she would’ve been planning this is radio city in 1994 shortly after Ravi’s funeral, and there is no way they were going to be working together after that fight.
She probably wouldn’t have done it anyway, but there was no chance. I’m guessing she expected to never speak to Mary again.

[TheMotownManiac]

i'll also join in on a point that was a career decision that was more in mary's control and different approaches might have had more positive long-term impact

the issue of her relationship with Diana

i'm not criticizing her for having her own personal feelings in terms of what Diana did, how things played out within the group, etc. of course mary is entitled to her opinion on things and that opinion is a valid one.

the decision though for taking this public was mary's decision. and IMO was not in her or the group's best interest. My opinion on the Dreamgirl book is that she and/or the editor decided to push the book more into the "sensational" realm and that the goal was to re-invigorate interest in mary and lead to a new record deal. at this point, mary was already in her early 40s and had really no solo career to speak of. the odds of kickstarting one at this point was so very remote. so the decision to alienate Diana and Motown was not a wise one. again, if she personally felt this way - ok that's fine. but she was a student of Berry's and Motown's and was well-versed in PR and the idea of public opinion. she should have been able to see that, while she would benefit from an immediate influx in cash, the longer-term prospect of having a positive working relationship with Diana or Motonw would be trashed.

If there had been a positive public relationship between D and M, perhaps there might have been more mini reunions. like what if M and C had joined Diana for the medley of Sup hits during Super Bowl XXX? Diana had also told the FLO's that she was so pleased with what they were doing and would perhaps like to tour with them. if Mary had been on good terms with them or even participating with the FLO's then it could have been so much easier to go these things. and the financial benefit of these would have been very strong for mary

it’s no secret that things started to become trouble while they were rehearsing for the Copa. Harvey, Gil, Cholly, Maurice, and Mrs. Paul had not worked with them that much up to this point and did not adjust to the tardiness issues well at all. I have no idea if this had been a problem in the group before Copa rehearsals, but it was a big problem Right off the bat. It’s true that Diana seem to want to know everything, and worked with everyone. She was always the first to arrive and the last to leave. Mary was always the last to arrive and I don’t know what their departure routine was, but they very much resented being told that Diana was a harder worker and more dedicated to the group. If her head was swelling as has been reported, that would’ve made it worse. Then finding out that they were going to have no leads, except Flo on People. Then Berry and Diana happened. This Set the stage for all the trouble that was to follow. I have no real idea of knowing what Florence and Mary talked about, but I do know from Cindy that from the moment she joined the group Mary was, subtly at first, trying to divide the group with Cindy on her side. The rest is pretty much documented but as you said, Mary’s decision to take this public, and make it a centerpiece of her biography, was stirring a hornets nest as if one had never been stirred before. She knew exactly what she was doing and I don’t believe for a minute that any of the responsibility goes on her editor. That book sealed their fate, right or wrong, she knew better than anybody what Diana‘s reaction was going to be. This was mary‘s choice. Just like the cover of supreme glamour.

Some have mentioned that the 70s Supremes suffered from lack of direction and I’m sure that’s partially true, but again this is the result of Mary’s choice to stand up to Berry and demand that Jean Terrell stay in the group. If he was willing to stop working with the Supremes because Diana wouldn’t sing you’re nobody ‘til somebody loves you, Mary should have known better and when she realized that Berry was serious about not working with the group anymore, she had a choice. Right or wrong good or bad it was mary’s choice to lose Berry Gordy as a manager.

her other bad choices have been well documented: Pedro, taking way too many leads, clinging desperately to the faded image of the 60s group, alienating everyone in the group at one time or another usually over a power struggle.

it was Mary‘s decision to go public during RTL and, in my opinion, it was a really bad idea. Whether she was right or wrong in her demands is not the point, she forever sealed their fate at that time.

certainly Diana has made a lot of bad decisions, but they weren’t as dire because she was set for life financially.

all of that aside, all of the bad decisions that she makes just like I have made and everyone I know has ever made, I think what she achieved is phenomenal. life was a party to Mary and she relished it. She did have some financial worries and she did feel some kind of way about Diana, but she was genuinely happy and thrilled to be alive she appreciated her accomplishments and her place in history and the financial rewards that came her way. I don’t think anyone can ask for more at the end of their life. So I can pick at things that she did that I thought was smart or bad, but she enjoyed life as much as anyone I’ve ever known.


still, I wish that she had hired a stylist who, after Ross split, could have guided the group as far as costumes and television presentation, because she was pretty much clueless and I think everyone agrees a lot of damage was done to the group on television.

as far as joining the Flos, She was busy with the book at the time, but with all the publicity, they might’ve done very very well. It was her choice to say no, because she wanted to be the lead, or a co-lead lead at least, and back in charge of the group. As it turns out she made a lot more money with the book than she ever expected, but once that money was gone, she may have had some regrets. She never however said anything of the sort to me.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Well, I didn't want to speak about RTL, this was more about career and management decisions. Still, in many ways Mary was right about RTL. Imagine another founding member of a group during a reunion being told they would have no creative input and to just show up. I think Mary would not have liked the dancers and other things about RTL. The ticket prices would still be overinflated and many fans would go expecting a reunion of what was to be served something completely different. I also feel many Ross fans may have been quite rude to her onstage after Dreamgirl. Some of this may have caused tension between Diana and Mary and who knows what would have happened. Perhaps an argument that would have ended the tour and that would have looked just as bad. Plus, I am sure Mary would have been treated shabbily and that would have frustrated her and rightfully so. Plus, after Dreamgirl it seemed suspect that Diana would want to tour with Mary so maybe it was all a ploy and she had Lynda and Scherrie in mind the entire time.
I don't think Mary would want to be in the FLOs. Granted, she got along well with Scherrie but if she was with Lynda there may have been friction. Plus, as an original member just like Diana or Flo it was really their group. Not every succeeding member was as respectful of that as say Cindy was. I think all of those years of tension and infighting made Mary never want to be part of the group again unless she was in charge or with Diana given her respectful say.
Mary was always trying her best to speak with the press after many years of not being able to even speak at press conferences. It was part of her training with Motown to court publicity.

[sup_fan]

Maniac i agree with your points. very well stated.

in regards to the early years and the prep for the Copa, yes i think F and M made the wrong decisions by not working harder. but that sort of was my point earlier. I don't see that as much of a "mistaken decision" because they were 22. youth and immaturity can be blamed for that - i'm sure we all made dumb decisions like that. the point was that Diana was so very very different from the typical 22 year old. and all of the teachers and instructors were seasoned, older professionals.

Whereas something like the jean issue or the style and strategy of hte 70s groups or writing Dreamgirls - these were all done as more of an adult. youthful indiscretion can't be the blame here.

[sup_fan]

as for the Flos, my understanding [[and i've done very very little research into this so please correct me if i'm wrong) is that Scherrie, Lynda and the rest make a decent living with their FLO gigs. nothing monumental. but sufficient to supplement whatever else they're working on. they might do session work or something else. also they weren't trying to live some unobtainable Superstar lifestyle with a 30-room mansion, rare cars, etc.

i think that while working with the Flos, they had some time where they could continue to pursue other, individual projects. even with mary as part of this group, it wouldn't have added that much more touring.

[TheMotownManiac]

Well, I didn't want to speak about RTL, this was more about career and management decisions. Still, in many ways Mary was right about RTL. Imagine another founding member of a group during a reunion being told they would have no creative input and to just show up. I think Mary would not have liked the dancers and other things about RTL. The ticket prices would still be overinflated and many fans would go expecting a reunion of what was to be served something completely different. I also feel many Ross fans may have been quite rude to her onstage after Dreamgirl. Some of this may have caused tension between Diana and Mary and who knows what would have happened. Perhaps an argument that would have ended the tour and that would have looked just as bad. Plus, I am sure Mary would have been treated shabbily and that would have frustrated her and rightfully so. Plus, after Dreamgirl it seemed suspect that Diana would want to tour with Mary so maybe it was all a ploy and she had Lynda and Scherrie in mind the entire time.
I don't think Mary would want to be in the FLOs. Granted, she got along well with Scherrie but if she was with Lynda there may have been friction. Plus, as an original member just like Diana or Flo it was really their group. Not every succeeding member was as respectful of that as say Cindy was. I think all of those years of tension and infighting made Mary never want to be part of the group again unless she was in charge or with Diana given her respectful say.
Mary was always trying her best to speak with the press after many years of not being able to even speak at press conferences. It was part of her training with Motown to court publicity.

Plus I’ve never read so many suppositions in my life!

You are right a founding member would not normally necessarily be treated that way, but the founding member does not normally pen biography doing a one-sided, fact challenged hatchet job on its star and then pretend like they have no idea why the star is upset. C’mon, even people who have never heard of the Supremes know that was the problem between Diana and Mary. That doesn’t mean that Mary should’ve just had to show up, I’m not saying that at all, but I’m guessing Diana one is a little to do with her as possible and certainly planning anything would’ve been out of the question. I think if they had to sit down and do that diana wouldn’t have done the tour. I don’t think Mary would’ve been treated shabbily, certainly lynda and Scherrie were not. Mary didn’t mind having dancers, but she did not like the idea of them being on stage at the same time as the group. Perhaps Diana felt if she made all the decisions there would be less room for conflict….. or maybe she just didn’t care what Mary wanted. we are talking about decades of bad feelings, I don’t think anybody can point a finger at someone and say it’s their fault. It was dicey to attempt no matter how it would’ve gone. I do not believe that there would’ve been a fight during the tour. I know that mary would’ve been thrilled with her paycheck, traveling first class and playing to such large loving crowds. It might be, perhaps, maybe that they might even have gotten along and perhaps, might have, maybe repaired some damage. Well, it’s a possibility!

[sup_fan]

Plus I’ve never read so many suppositions in my life!

You are right a founding member would not normally necessarily be treated that way, but the founding member does not normally pen biography doing a one-sided, fact challenged hatchet job on its star and then pretend like they have no idea why the star is upset. C’mon, even people who have never heard of the Supremes know that was the problem between Diana and Mary. That doesn’t mean that Mary should’ve just had to show up, I’m not saying that at all, but I’m guessing Diana one is a little to do with her as possible and certainly planning anything would’ve been out of the question. I think if they had to sit down and do that diana wouldn’t have done the tour. I don’t think Mary would’ve been treated shabbily, certainly lynda and Scherrie were not. Mary didn’t mind having dancers, but she did not like the idea of them being on stage at the same time as the group. Perhaps Diana felt if she made all the decisions there would be less room for conflict….. or maybe she just didn’t care what Mary wanted. we are talking about decades of bad feelings, I don’t think anybody can point a finger at someone and say it’s their fault. It was dicey to attempt no matter how it would’ve gone. I do not believe that there would’ve been a fight during the tour. I know that mary would’ve been thrilled with her paycheck, traveling first class and playing to such large loving crowds. It might be, perhaps, maybe that they might even have gotten along and perhaps, might have, maybe repaired some damage. Well, it’s a possibility!

from the tv interviews i've seen, it got down to a she said/she said situation. Mary said they were not allowing her to be part of the planning. Diana said mary first needed to complete her contract with the promoters and THEN they could work on the planning.

still i think all of this can go back to the book issue. it seems clear that mary carried quite a bit of bitterness by the late 70s. and i don't exactly blame her either. while she certainly made plenty of mistakes, so did motown and their mistakes were quite critical to the overall longterm success of the group. and mary wasn't in a position to change those so you can understand how helplessness can lead to bitterness.

mary might have had some personal issues with Diana and that's normal and natural. but professionally, after 1970, diana was quite supportive. while she couldn't just babysit the situation with the Sups, she attended concerts, supported the girls, she gave mary the space to do what she wanted, she supported her solo career debut, helped get the group disbanded once mary was gone, lent her money. and there are probably many more examples we're not aware of.

so if mary was holding onto bitterness from diana's actions in the 60s, its really not ok that she was so receptive to all of this assistance. then we get motown 25 where a LOT of bad decisions were made. and this start of public confrontations w D and M

[Ollie9]

The thing that always bugged me most about the RTL tour was how Diana gave up on any idea of promoting “Every Day Is A New Day.
I so wish it had involved a series of three concerts, filmed for dvd release with a new DR&S album thrown in for good measure. Limited time for Diana and Mary not to get along, plus bucket loads of hopefully positive media attention. Done and dusted.

[sup_fan]

The thing that always bugged me most about the RTL tour was how Diana gave up on any idea of promoting “Every Day Is A New Day.
I so wish it had involved a series of three concerts, filmed for dvd release with a new DR&S album thrown in for good measure. Limited time for Diana and Mary not to get along, plus bucket loads of hopefully positive media attention. Done and dusted.

Bluebrock mentioned that she pretty much abandoned the EDIAND album and did little to nothing to promote it. motown matched this and did nothing either. a real shame cuz i find it to be the most enjoyable of her Motown II albums. Force and Take Me were great but i just happen to prefer the sound/beat of Every Day - just personal preference regarding type of music.

Randy also mentioned that this whole time period was very challenging for her. her motown deal was coming to a close and it hadn't been a very positive experience. her marriage was ending with Arne. she was going through menopause. so a very chaotic and stressful time. i believe he alludes to the idea that perhaps this reunion/RTL idea would help heal some of the pain. go back and revisit happy memories to help ease the hurt of today. unfortunately that wasn't to happen!

[Ollie9]

Bluebrock mentioned that she pretty much abandoned the EDIAND album and did little to nothing to promote it. motown matched this and did nothing either. a real shame cuz i find it to be the most enjoyable of her Motown II albums. Force and Take Me were great but i just happen to prefer the sound/beat of Every Day - just personal preference regarding type of music.

Randy also mentioned that this whole time period was very challenging for her. her motown deal was coming to a close and it hadn't been a very positive experience. her marriage was ending with Arne. she was going through menopause. so a very chaotic and stressful time. i believe he alludes to the idea that perhaps this reunion/RTL idea would help heal some of the pain. go back and revisit happy memories to help ease the hurt of today. unfortunately that wasn't to happen!

I also love the “EDIAND” album. Potential hits a plenty on that one.
Do you think a new DR&S album would have been well received in 2000?.

[TheMotownManiac]

I also love the “EDIAND” album. Potential hits a plenty on that one.
Do you think a new DR&S album would have been well received in 2000?.

The reason she didn’t tour, as stated, was she was devastated by her marriage and menopausal depression. I have been told, that she was virtually incapable of singing any of those songs live except for he lives in you, because of the subject matter. And while she stated that she was going to go out and plug the new album, it’s probably a safe bet she would only have done he lives in you and one of the fast versions of until we meet again. Motown was very angry, they felt the album was strong and actually had a chance, but when she canceled the tour, it was all over. They wanted nothing more to do with her and pulled all the advertising they could.

I think a new album by The Supremes with all of the publicity that tour was getting, would’ve had a big chance of hitting if the music was good. If the tour had gone off as originally planned, Without any negative press, the market would’ve been ripe for it. For years Cher couldn’t sell a record to save her life, she changed things around came out with better music and became a hit all over again in her 40s! 99% of the time it’s all about the music.

[RanRan79]

I still think some of y'all are reading a different Dreamgirl than I did, because a hatchet job it was not. I've maintained all along that the big mistake with Dreamgirl was Mary's passages regarding Diana's private life. Diana and Gordy being a thing...there was no way of writing around that. But some of the stories of Diana's love life just wasn't Mary's business to tell. If I were Diana I would've been extremely pissed about that. There are also some anecdotes that make it clear Diana sometimes got on Mary's nerves, like the story about Diana taking the couch at Mary's relatives' home while Mary slept on the floor, or Diana snapping at Mary about eating too slowly. Neither of these are earth shattering revelations, but was it necessary to the overrall story? No, but it does help to paint a picture of a young lady who was sometimes thoughtless or unnecessarily mean.

That being said, Mary never denigrated Diana's talent- always ranking Diana higher than herself- nor her work ethic. She was complimentary often throughout the book. She told the story of the Supremes from her perspective. It was one sided like every other first person narrative that exists. I'm not sure why Mary gets flack for not consulting other people on their sides of the story when she's telling it from her own POV.

For a real hatchet job, see Call Her Miss Ross. There are stories in there, that if true, Mary was a witness to and those stories did not end up in her book. In fact I don't think there is anything in Mary's book that is as nasty as the nastiest thing that appeared in Call Her Miss Ross.

Mary had a right to tell her story. Everything wasn't accurate [[not the same as calling Mary a big fat liar as some continue to do over and over these days) and it was indeed biased, as should have been expected. Diana being mad about it to the point where Mary was an instant enemy seems petty, unless she focused on the passages about Diana's private life. [[And to Mary's credit, she left the issue of Rhonda's paternity alone, which could have sold a million more copies for just that news alone if Mary were focused on hurting Diana and making a buck at her expense.) Aside from those passages, Diana could've put her big girl draws on and either called Mary up and said "You know, I was a bitch sometimes back in the day. My fault girl. I like to think I've grown up some since then." Or she could've called Mary up and said "I didn't realize that those things had affected you that way, or that you might even still carry some hurt and anger behind it. I apologize. I was young, chasing a dream and didn't stop think about the reaction to my actions." Instead Diana hit the "ignore" button, because at that point it was all about Diana's feelings and no acknowledgement of anyone else's, which fueled more hurt, because as I've said in this forum before, not being a trained psychologist- I just play one on TV-, it appears to me that Mary had a lot of issues with rejection and belonging and needing to hold on to relationships, stemming from her childhood.

Writing Dreamgirl was probably the best decision Mary made in her post Supremes career. It's an excellent read and well written. Had Diana chosen to be more upfront with her thoughts and feelings in her autobiography regarding the Supremes, no one would fault her for it, even if her book had come out before Mary's. Mary should be allowed the same.

[RanRan79]

Regarding RTL, regardless of who was right or wrong in the breakdown, I do fault Mary for the continued public perception of the Supremes being this feuding entity. There are some issues with RTL that I side with Diana on, and there are others I side with Mary on. But Mary "should" have kept her mouth shut to the public. When things broke down, Mary should have just said "I'm unable to do the tour at this time" [[ambiguously avoiding placing blame) "I wish the ladies well and look forward to the opportunity for Diana and I to reunite as the Supremes another time". Now some people were going to talk no matter what. Hell, half the people in this forum get off on conjuring up entire stories and scenarios based off of one word or sentence these women utter over the years. I say let them talk. But don't give them ammunition. And that's just what Mary did with her interviews at the time. And then Diana had to do rebuttal interviews. It ended up one big shit show and that's a shame, because the group in totality deserved better than that. Mary and Diana, for everything they've meant to the Supremes, deserved better than to be involved in such a sordid public back and forth.

[RanRan79]

i will point out that i don't really fault M or F with their choices. actually i'd describe them at "normal" since it seems they reacted to events and handed situations just as any 21 year old would do. same with their approach to business. they were young women just starting out.

it's just that diana wasn't normal! lol and i mean that in a good way she had a drive that was unlike anything a typical 21 year old would demonstrate. she also had a strong sense of perfectionism

I don't think Diana was all that abnormal either. She would have been just one of many dedicated, focused and enthusiastic young adults bounding about the world. That's kind of typical for young adults who find out very early on what their purpose is. I don't know that Flo and Mary's work ethics were any less than Diana's. Mary claimed that some of the higher ups thought she and Flo weren't working as hard, but Mary didn't think that was true. It does appear that Diana very obviously had the biggest cheerleader one could have at Motown. Would she have been as dedicated without Gordy? Maybe. Would she have been as dedicated under someone else's guidance? Maybe not. Would Flo and Mary have stepped their game up with someone else convincing them that they could do it? Who knows?

Being around tons of kids and young adults [[and of course having been one myself just last year ), it's amazing to see the energy they have when they have a focus, know where they want to go and how they want to get there. It's a different vibe from the ones who don't yet have a clue, or whose direction is not yet clear. Diana was lucky that everything lined up just right for her to succeed. These stories don't always turn out so well, even when they show such early promise, focus and dedication.

[floyjoy678]

I'm not sure how true it is but I remember reading that Diana also wasn't happy about Mary discussing Flo's rape, something the three of them kept between themselves.

[marybrewster]

One point made above was that Mary was to sign a contract first, then they could discuss specifics. I've heard this elsewhere as well.

Have any of you ever signed a contract? Why would ANYONE sign something without knowing EXACTLY what they're getting themselves into?

Maybe Mary declined because of the money. Maybe Mary declined because she wanted more creative control. Maybe it was a combination of both. Ultimately there was more than just one Supreme and Diana misjudged that.

[TheMotownManiac]

I still think some of y'all are reading a different Dreamgirl than I did, because a hatchet job it was not. I've maintained all along that the big mistake with Dreamgirl was Mary's passages regarding Diana's private life. Diana and Gordy being a thing...there was no way of writing around that. But some of the stories of Diana's love life just wasn't Mary's business to tell. If I were Diana I would've been extremely pissed about that. There are also some anecdotes that make it clear Diana sometimes got on Mary's nerves, like the story about Diana taking the couch at Mary's relatives' home while Mary slept on the floor, or Diana snapping at Mary about eating too slowly. Neither of these are earth shattering revelations, but was it necessary to the overrall story? No, but it does help to paint a picture of a young lady who was sometimes thoughtless or unnecessarily mean.

That being said, Mary never denigrated Diana's talent- always ranking Diana higher than herself- nor her work ethic. She was complimentary often throughout the book. She told the story of the Supremes from her perspective. It was one sided like every other first person narrative that exists. I'm not sure why Mary gets flack for not consulting other people on their sides of the story when she's telling it from her own POV.

For a real hatchet job, see Call Her Miss Ross. There are stories in there, that if true, Mary was a witness to and those stories did not end up in her book. In fact I don't think there is anything in Mary's book that is as nasty as the nastiest thing that appeared in Call Her Miss Ross.

Mary had a right to tell her story. Everything wasn't accurate [[not the same as calling Mary a big fat liar as some continue to do over and over these days) and it was indeed biased, as should have been expected. Diana being mad about it to the point where Mary was an instant enemy seems petty, unless she focused on the passages about Diana's private life. [[And to Mary's credit, she left the issue of Rhonda's paternity alone, which could have sold a million more copies for just that news alone if Mary were focused on hurting Diana and making a buck at her expense.) Aside from those passages, Diana could've put her big girl draws on and either called Mary up and said "You know, I was a bitch sometimes back in the day. My fault girl. I like to think I've grown up some since then." Or she could've called Mary up and said "I didn't realize that those things had affected you that way, or that you might even still carry some hurt and anger behind it. I apologize. I was young, chasing a dream and didn't stop think about the reaction to my actions." Instead Diana hit the "ignore" button, because at that point it was all about Diana's feelings and no acknowledgement of anyone else's, which fueled more hurt, because as I've said in this forum before, not being a trained psychologist- I just play one on TV-, it appears to me that Mary had a lot of issues with rejection and belonging and needing to hold on to relationships, stemming from her childhood.

Writing Dreamgirl was probably the best decision Mary made in her post Supremes career. It's an excellent read and well written. Had Diana chosen to be more upfront with her thoughts and feelings in her autobiography regarding the Supremes, no one would fault her for it, even if her book had come out before Mary's. Mary should be allowed the same.

We did read different book. I don’t recall Mary ever giving praise for anything Diana did in the group, and Mary admitted in more than one interview when asked why that was the case, she replied, “Diane was great everybody knew that I wrote about the things everybody didn’t know. “ Mary admitted that she didn’t say Diana did a good job on anything. I don’t recall her praising her work ethic more than once. I say hatchet job, because she can mention the couch incident, but not the Diana passed out on stage during a performance in right in front of Mary‘s eyes. She didn’t bring up how abusive Berry was to diana, which she was well aware of because she’s the one that first made it public in an interview talking about why diana ross had left Motown. Mary talked about how Barry treated them all poorly but especially Diane and would blame her for things and punish her for things that he knew she had not done. That’s a quote. Those things didn’t make it into the book. Even the love child sweatshirts got turned into a negative. Rehearsals they were all given a sweatshirt that said love child. Later Mary and Cindy were given plane sweatshirts because it fit the storyline of the song for Diana to be labeled the love child and different from the others. Mary knew this because it was Explained to Cindy and she when Mary asked about it. In the book, the change of the sweatshirts was just one more example about how they were trying to put the unfair focus on Diane. There’s so many instances like this to me it’s a hatchet job to you it’s not a hatchet…job that’s fine. I think omitting the fact that Diana was suffering also and could not eat, might have been mentioned in a more balanced book. Mary saw these things happen - they were in her point of view, she just chose not to include them. Certainly Mary has the right to put anything she wants in her book, and it seems as if she did. I’m not saying she shouldn’t have written it exactly the way she did, I am just saying that she knew exactly what she was doing and exactly what the reaction would be. It was a huge success for her, it hurt the image of the group a great deal and obliterated any relationship she might’ve ever had with Diane again, but she made a lot of money on it and, though it did not get her a record contract, it did get her a lot of fans she did not have before because they were sympathetic. She definitely benefited in the bank that way as well. When she left the Supremes and went solo, almost no one gave a damn. After the book, fans were cleaving her to their bosoms.

[RanRan79]

I'm not sure how true it is but I remember reading that Diana also wasn't happy about Mary discussing Flo's rape, something the three of them kept between themselves.

I've heard that, but not sure if it was in an official source or online many years ago.

[RanRan79]

One point made above was that Mary was to sign a contract first, then they could discuss specifics. I've heard this elsewhere as well.

Have any of you ever signed a contract? Why would ANYONE sign something without knowing EXACTLY what they're getting themselves into?

Maybe Mary declined because of the money. Maybe Mary declined because she wanted more creative control. Maybe it was a combination of both. Ultimately there was more than just one Supreme and Diana misjudged that.

When the great Diana Ross is involved, all must bow down, suspend common sense, and do her bidding.

Only an idiot of Mary and Diana's age would sign a contract and then iron out specifics. If the contract was the issue, the only hope Mary had was to stipulate some creative control or involvement. Whether or not that would have been a deal breaker for the TPTB is anyone's guess.

To my mind, there's no scenario where Mary Wilson just "shows up" to RTL. Unacceptable.

[RanRan79]

We did read different book. I don’t recall Mary ever giving praise for anything Diana did in the group, and Mary admitted in more than one interview when asked why that was the case, she replied, “Diane was great everybody knew that I wrote about the things everybody didn’t know. “ Mary admitted that she didn’t say Diana did a good job on anything. I don’t recall her praising her work ethic more than once. I say hatchet job, because she can mention the couch incident, but not the Diana passed out on stage during a performance in right in front of Mary‘s eyes. She didn’t bring up how abusive Berry was to diana, which she was well aware of because she’s the one that first made it public in an interview talking about why diana ross had left Motown. Mary talked about how Barry treated them all poorly but especially Diane and would blame her for things and punish her for things that he knew she had not done. That’s a quote. Those things didn’t make it into the book. Even the love child sweatshirts got turned into a negative. Rehearsals they were all given a sweatshirt that said love child. Later Mary and Cindy were given plane sweatshirts because it fit the storyline of the song for Diana to be labeled the love child and different from the others. Mary knew this because it was Explained to Cindy and she when Mary asked about it. In the book, the change of the sweatshirts was just one more example about how they were trying to put the unfair focus on Diane. There’s so many instances like this to me it’s a hatchet job to you it’s not a hatchet…job that’s fine. I think omitting the fact that Diana was suffering also and could not eat, might have been mentioned in a more balanced book. Mary saw these things happen - they were in her point of view, she just chose not to include them. Certainly Mary has the right to put anything she wants in her book, and it seems as if she did. I’m not saying she shouldn’t have written it exactly the way she did, I am just saying that she knew exactly what she was doing and exactly what the reaction would be. It was a huge success for her, it hurt the image of the group a great deal and obliterated any relationship she might’ve ever had with Diane again, but she made a lot of money on it and, though it did not get her a record contract, it did get her a lot of fans she did not have before because they were sympathetic. She definitely benefited in the bank that way as well. When she left the Supremes and went solo, almost no one gave a damn. After the book, fans were cleaving her to their bosoms.

It's obviously the middle of the night and I have not committed Dreamgirl to memory. However, I did take the time to scan through it to find a couple passages:

pg 40 "Still, on the right song...Diane was great."
pg 49 "I thought Flo had the best lead voice, then Diane, then me."
pg 223 In reference to Afro Vogue: "Diane was great"

There are also several passages where Mary mentions Diana's energy and focus. I think Mary's second book she mentions Diana's greatness even more.

I don't recall if Mary mentions Diana passing out onstage or not. I'll take your word for it. However, like most autobiographies, they're turned in with tons of pages, which are whittled down to whatever the editor thinks is best. [[And in this case, probably the most salacious.) Mary may very well have written about Diana passing out. The editor may have tossed it.

I need a source for the Love Child sweater incident. Without a name or page number, I'll go with Mary's account because she was, ya know, there.

At the end of the day, when it comes to the Diana portions of the book that she did not like, if the stories are true, the only person who should get the blame is Diana herself. Yeah, she can feel some type a way about Mary telling the world, but shouldn't she really have been looking at herself, going "Damn, I did that? I said that? Yikes!". People always want grace and mercy for their actions but don't want to deal with the fallout of theirs. That's Diana Ross. And one could make the argument, that's also Mary Wilson.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I really had hoped this would be more a discussion on Mary's choices on her management and career choices such as it took many years before she did her Up Close shows which really put a spotlight on her talent. Still, I should have expected that RTL and Dreamgirl would come up. Mary wasn't going to write a book and talk on TV about how gloriously talented Diana Ross is. She certainly acknowledged it even though she always said that she felt Flo was the best vocalist. When asked by Donahue, she said that Diana's success came from her talent. As for talking about Flo's rape, I am sure that was a touchy subject that she weighed putting in her book[[I am only guessing) but she also said she saw Diana in Vegas and said she was received well but when she asked to interview her for her book Diana said she didn't have the time. I am only guessing but I think Mary wanted to explain that it was not bitterness over Diana that caused Flo to act out and drink but it came from the rape which caused her to mistrust people and for her to perceive what she saw as injustices to be magnified. Perhaps, the public perception was Flo was bitter over Diana being singled out and acted out and became an alcoholic and died young. They may have agreed not to discuss it, but by doing so Mary humanized what was actually going on with Florence. She admired Florence's talent and she admired Diana's aggressive nature, even if it had some consequences to the group at times. Mary mentioned she was always late, a procrastinator and a bit of a chicken. I ended up reading a book that showed the good and bad of all three of them and it made me like all of them more. Hopefully we can discuss more about some of Mary's choices in her career.

[sup_fan]

One point made above was that Mary was to sign a contract first, then they could discuss specifics. I've heard this elsewhere as well.

Have any of you ever signed a contract? Why would ANYONE sign something without knowing EXACTLY what they're getting themselves into?

Maybe Mary declined because of the money. Maybe Mary declined because she wanted more creative control. Maybe it was a combination of both. Ultimately there was more than just one Supreme and Diana misjudged that.

the contract with the promoters wouldn't have been a full itemization of what happened on stage in the act, the dialog, the set design and colors, gowns, etc. the contract would have been for the number of dates and the financials. The artist doesn't have much impact on this or the cities played - that's the job of the promoter to organize.

my impression of Mary's comments is that she wanted to be involved with the structure of the show, the design of the act, etc.

[sup_fan]

I still think some of y'all are reading a different Dreamgirl than I did, because a hatchet job it was not. I've maintained all along that the big mistake with Dreamgirl was Mary's passages regarding Diana's private life. Diana and Gordy being a thing...there was no way of writing around that. But some of the stories of Diana's love life just wasn't Mary's business to tell. If I were Diana I would've been extremely pissed about that. There are also some anecdotes that make it clear Diana sometimes got on Mary's nerves, like the story about Diana taking the couch at Mary's relatives' home while Mary slept on the floor, or Diana snapping at Mary about eating too slowly. Neither of these are earth shattering revelations, but was it necessary to the overrall story? No, but it does help to paint a picture of a young lady who was sometimes thoughtless or unnecessarily mean.

That being said, Mary never denigrated Diana's talent- always ranking Diana higher than herself- nor her work ethic. She was complimentary often throughout the book. She told the story of the Supremes from her perspective. It was one sided like every other first person narrative that exists. I'm not sure why Mary gets flack for not consulting other people on their sides of the story when she's telling it from her own POV.

For a real hatchet job, see Call Her Miss Ross. There are stories in there, that if true, Mary was a witness to and those stories did not end up in her book. In fact I don't think there is anything in Mary's book that is as nasty as the nastiest thing that appeared in Call Her Miss Ross.

Mary had a right to tell her story. Everything wasn't accurate [[not the same as calling Mary a big fat liar as some continue to do over and over these days) and it was indeed biased, as should have been expected. Diana being mad about it to the point where Mary was an instant enemy seems petty, unless she focused on the passages about Diana's private life. [[And to Mary's credit, she left the issue of Rhonda's paternity alone, which could have sold a million more copies for just that news alone if Mary were focused on hurting Diana and making a buck at her expense.) Aside from those passages, Diana could've put her big girl draws on and either called Mary up and said "You know, I was a bitch sometimes back in the day. My fault girl. I like to think I've grown up some since then." Or she could've called Mary up and said "I didn't realize that those things had affected you that way, or that you might even still carry some hurt and anger behind it. I apologize. I was young, chasing a dream and didn't stop think about the reaction to my actions." Instead Diana hit the "ignore" button, because at that point it was all about Diana's feelings and no acknowledgement of anyone else's, which fueled more hurt, because as I've said in this forum before, not being a trained psychologist- I just play one on TV-, it appears to me that Mary had a lot of issues with rejection and belonging and needing to hold on to relationships, stemming from her childhood.

Writing Dreamgirl was probably the best decision Mary made in her post Supremes career. It's an excellent read and well written. Had Diana chosen to be more upfront with her thoughts and feelings in her autobiography regarding the Supremes, no one would fault her for it, even if her book had come out before Mary's. Mary should be allowed the same.

true Dreamgirl isn't a trashy as CHMR or ever Sup Faith. certainly it's better than All That Glittered

but it definitely was a negative portrayal of DR. mary does little to show diana as working with Mary to help flo. according to other accounts, frankly everyone at first tried to help flo along and keep her from falling apart. even berry. but eventually each started to realize it wasn't going to work. D and M tried to keep things as smooth as possible for quite a while but, again, eventually they had to make a choice too. That's quite a different portrayal of things versus how mary writes it. there are all few acknowledgements of how unique a singer and performer diana was and how that helped to finally break them through. much of the tone is about how mary felt she and flo were held back to allow diana to succeed. frankly, there was no need to hold them or anyone back because diana was going to be a superstar regardless.

of course mary has every right to write the story she felt she wanted to tell. but my above point is that, even if she did feel as she did, publicly trashing diana would 1) besmirch the overall reputation of the supremes and 2) eliminate any hope of mary working with diana. by the mid80s, mary's career was limited at best. and frankly that's a pretty generous description. being able to occasionally work with diana would have been financially very beneficial

[sup_fan]

The reason she didn’t tour, as stated, was she was devastated by her marriage and menopausal depression. I have been told, that she was virtually incapable of singing any of those songs live except for he lives in you, because of the subject matter. And while she stated that she was going to go out and plug the new album, it’s probably a safe bet she would only have done he lives in you and one of the fast versions of until we meet again. Motown was very angry, they felt the album was strong and actually had a chance, but when she canceled the tour, it was all over. They wanted nothing more to do with her and pulled all the advertising they could.

I think a new album by The Supremes with all of the publicity that tour was getting, would’ve had a big chance of hitting if the music was good. If the tour had gone off as originally planned, Without any negative press, the market would’ve been ripe for it. For years Cher couldn’t sell a record to save her life, she changed things around came out with better music and became a hit all over again in her 40s! 99% of the time it’s all about the music.

I think an album would have been ok. I don't know that there would have been a need for a full 12-track album of new material. perhaps it becomes something like To Love Again - a mix. pull in 3 or 4 of the biggest sup hits, a few new tunes, a couple dance remixes for the clubs

just like the hits medley back in 79/80 was a hit, i think remixing some of the tunes or a medley would have been big in the dance clubs