Supreme Mistake in 1976?

[jim aka jtigre99]

Just a question to all of the well versed fans here. Do you think it was a mistake to release MSS so soon after High Energy? Do you think they should have released other singles from HE? Do you think they should have released a different group of singles from MSS?
I know Motown was over the group and surprised by HE and its single doing well. Do you think maybe releasing High Energy and then You're What's Missing in My Life as follow up singles would have helped or hurt the group? My local reviewer only liked the ballads on HE and said You Keep Me Movin On was a bit better than the rest [[he didn't care for disco),perhaps DJs could have used that as they used to be hangin on but now they are movin on.
MSS was great but do you think better singles than Driving Wheel? I would have had Let Yourself Go because it was a true winner and maybe even as a first single I Don't Wanna Be Tied Down which carried on the theme of independence of Heart from HE. Perhaps, MSS should have been released in 1977 rather than 8 months after HE.
Do you think those were all mistakes?

[mistercarter2u]

I think it was a HUGE mistake. Motown screwed up by not issuing a second single from High Energy. There were several tracks on that album that could have been released as a single. Had they done so, they could have continued to promote the H.E. album for awhile since it was, sort of, a comeback for The Supremes.

Then, the M.S.S. album was extremely poorly promoted. Motown did nothing to really sell that one, and while "Driving Wheel" has grown on me over the decades, it may not have been the best choice for the initial single. There were other tracks there that were more radio-friendly.

Yeah... Motown missed the boat in a lot of ways with both albums.

[reese]

An interesting question.

To be honest, I don't hear a lot of singles on the HIGH ENERGY album. I'M GONNA LET MY HEART DO THE WALKING was such a special record. It made radio and audiences take notice. To follow it up, I might have gone with YOU'RE WHAT'S MISSING IN MY LIFE. But it probably wouldn't have done as well. Maybe Motown didn't hear another single on HIGH ENERGY either but wanted to capitalize on the new attention, hence releasing the next album less than a year later.

Re MSS, I think YOU'RE MY DRIVING WHEEL was nice enough. But I don't find it all that special. I would have gone with LET YOURSELF GO as the first single.

[marybrewster]

Would any of this have changed if Cindy had stayed?

[sup_fan]

Walking is clearly the standout of the HE album. IMO it's as unique to the Sups as WDOLG or Ladder. Can you imagine anyone but DMF doing WDOLG? to me, the disco tracks on Sup 75 are nice enough but could easily have been done by pretty much any female artist or group. You're What's missing, Only You and YKMMO are also fine but could also be anyone.

Walking is unique is that Scherrie's voice just OWNS this song. and the high-flying background vocals, the "you go girl" theme and all seems to have finally re-established a unique sound for the Scherrie grouping and leverages the group's strengths.

the best strategy for a major hit is to follow it up with a very similar song that continues or builds on the prior's strengths. frankly none of the HE tracks do this as well as Let Yourself Go. Only You is a solid song and might have done ok but i think it would have let too much steam out. after WDOLG hit, Gordy didn't try to mess around with Penny Pincher or something that was an ok song - he immediately had HDH craft new songs in this new style. that's exactly what the Hollands did with the MS&S project

[sup_fan]

now as for the MS&S project, i think that album is remarkably stronger than HE. but one of the all time fatal mistakes hit it - wrong lead single. what should have happened after Walking was:

1. a complete revamp of the Sups' show. update it, modernize it, ditch the silly Dream sequence and the crap like The Way We Were. organize the act with cleaner choreography, reign in the excessive ad libbing

2. increase Scherrie's position in the group so she has more public-facing time. Love Mary and her work in the group. Scherrie needed more presence though since she was leading Walking and more of the singles.

3. motown manage the group again - politically, it was just suicide for mary to decline their request. completely true that motown had had minimal interest in the group and really was just going through the motions. when Walking broke out as a hit and the HE album charted well, motown realized they could have a ready made Disco act in the Sups and figured they might as well take advantage of that.

4. lead off with LYG as the first single form the new album

5. mary not doing solo. once she announced that in Dec 76, everything dropped off for the promotion of the songs and lp

[marybrewster]

now as for the MS&S project, i think that album is remarkably stronger than HE. but one of the all time fatal mistakes hit it - wrong lead single. what should have happened after Walking was:

1. a complete revamp of the Sups' show. update it, modernize it, ditch the silly Dream sequence and the crap like The Way We Were. organize the act with cleaner choreography, reign in the excessive ad libbing

2. increase Scherrie's position in the group so she has more public-facing time. Love Mary and her work in the group. Scherrie needed more presence though since she was leading Walking and more of the singles.

3. motown manage the group again - politically, it was just suicide for mary to decline their request. completely true that motown had had minimal interest in the group and really was just going through the motions. when Walking broke out as a hit and the HE album charted well, motown realized they could have a ready made Disco act in the Sups and figured they might as well take advantage of that.

4. lead off with LYG as the first single form the new album

5. mary not doing solo. once she announced that in Dec 76, everything dropped off for the promotion of the songs and lp

1) WITHOUT A DOUBT. It's a broken record, but the sequins and the showtunes should have been long gone by this. Yet we're still twirling in a swirl gown singing TCB. Okay an exaggeration, but you know what I mean. Mary was DETERMINED to stick with that image, like it was still 1966 and the champagne was flowing. Unfortunately, a decade had slipped through her hands.

[BayouMotownMan]

I think the unexpected response to HE took Motown and Gordy by surprise, they weren't expecting it. Gordy saw this as a way to keep Ross in check as she was beginning to rebell against him.

Yes there were other hits off the lp. The title track and You're What's Missing received FM play and great reaction here and overseas. Brian Holland mixed the title track for single release after IGLMHDTW cooled off, but Mary and Pedro nixed it as Susaye was too new in the group to have a hit record, they felt. This was the second time since the group reformed that Mary did this, the first being to cancel It's All Been Said Before off the first Scherrie lp. Obviously this did not set well with Motown so they probably just gave up on future hits.

MSS didn't come too soon as some momentum had been set with HE that needed to be continued. But most of us felt and still feel that the first single should have been Let Yourself Go. Driving Wheel was just an oddly structured song.

In any event, despite the group making a small comeback with HE, group tensions boiled over as Pedro continued to drive them off a cliff.

[bradsupremes]

I'm surprised at people's strong response to Mary, Scherrie & Susaye. To me, it doesn't hold up to its predecessor. High Energy is one of my favorite Supremes album. Great songs, great production, and overall has a smooth flow to it. It's also their second best-selling and charting album of the 70s right after Right On.

Motown really dropped the ball on not pushing "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" all the way to number one. It's a number one hit record to my ears. "Walking" should have gone all the way to the top. Scherrie recalls being told Motown ordered the major radio stations to stop pushing "Walking" and push "Love Hangover" instead. What would have happened if that didn't happen?

To me, a natural follow-up to "Walking" should have been "You're What's Missing In My Life." The intro would need some revamping, eliminating most of that upbeat musical part and an editing it with them singing at the start. Had "Walking" been a huge hit, "You're What's Missing" could have easily charted in the top 40/top 20.

[Boogiedown]

While it’s a very nice shot, I would also wonder if the MSS title and the closeup caused buyers to wonder who they were buying. The ambiguity of the HE cover was more clever in that it emphasized the image and sound without pointing out specifics.
Its a nice photo, but also perhaps a bit dark and serious looking, not reflecting the fun to be found inside.

HDH really went for it on MSS, Motown should have at least worked it from that angle , an ad reading : from the writers of fifty [or whatever the number ] top ten Supremes hits and list them .
Original question :
I think moving on to the next album was right. Disco evolved rapidly in its sound and sitting on it another six months would only age the product. WALKING had them a current club fave. They needed to continue the momentum found in that genre. HIGH ENERGY was anything but, a strange song title for a sultry breezy number. It didn’t continue the high energy of WALKING.

[sup_fan]

Walking has such an interesting and odd chart life.

HE and Walking briefly shared listing. Walking was released in mid March and the album followed in April. by the end of April the title track and Walking were listed together at #5 on the NY charts. the next week, and just for this one week, the chart lists the HE lp all cuts at #7. then the following week NY charts are back to HE/Walking at #3. Boston also listed HE/Walking for 1 week at #12. After these early listings, everything is Walking only. and it's charting high in many markets like LA, DC *where it went #1*. There aren't as many non-NYC charts at this time and they aren't consistently listed in the Billboard magazines

Walking was also on the disco charts from late April through late July. It entered the pop chart in late May and didn't peak until early Aug - that's very bizarre as it sat there soooooo long.

Walking also entered the chart the week that Love Hangover peaked. LH remained in the top 10 for 5 weeks and then fell off, as most singles do.

I'm not at all surprised about motown saying shift the focus to LH - that would seem a natural since DR had a track record and the sups didnt. but then i would imagine the fact that the song stuck around, patiently waiting until LH did it's thing, it's a shame it didn't move up higher. i would wonder if around this time is when motown asked to manage the group again.

[sup_fan]

I think the unexpected response to HE took Motown and Gordy by surprise, they weren't expecting it. Gordy saw this as a way to keep Ross in check as she was beginning to rebell against him.

Yes there were other hits off the lp. The title track and You're What's Missing received FM play and great reaction here and overseas. Brian Holland mixed the title track for single release after IGLMHDTW cooled off, but Mary and Pedro nixed it as Susaye was too new in the group to have a hit record, they felt. This was the second time since the group reformed that Mary did this, the first being to cancel It's All Been Said Before off the first Scherrie lp. Obviously this did not set well with Motown so they probably just gave up on future hits.

MSS didn't come too soon as some momentum had been set with HE that needed to be continued. But most of us felt and still feel that the first single should have been Let Yourself Go. Driving Wheel was just an oddly structured song.

In any event, despite the group making a small comeback with HE, group tensions boiled over as Pedro continued to drive them off a cliff.

this is such a mindboggling decision. this punitive approach that mary and otis took towards new members. these singers that came into the groups were professionals with more than sufficient resumes. if not, they would never have been chosen to join in the first place. with Lynda and especially with Susaye, you had such a new and totally different vocalist. this is something that should have been celebrated and highlighted. not hidden.

[sup_fan]

1) WITHOUT A DOUBT. It's a broken record, but the sequins and the showtunes should have been long gone by this. Yet we're still twirling in a swirl gown singing TCB. Okay an exaggeration, but you know what I mean. Mary was DETERMINED to stick with that image, like it was still 1966 and the champagne was flowing. Unfortunately, a decade had slipped through her hands.

i think sequins and glamour were suddenly more back in style with disco. but the style of the gowns were so out of step with things. during the Scherrie years there are a considerable amount of new outfits. 20 or so in just 3 years. plus there were tons from the Jean era. yet there are so many tv appearances with the old DRATS outfits. just odd

I think MSC looked incredible and super sexy in the black pants and lavender sequin tops from the Jean era when they appeared on Dinah. but they looked so out of place in those chiffon ball gowns on Tonight Show.

it's like Mary never once bothered to look at a Vogue or Cosmo magazine to see what fashion trends were hot. the red sequin wrap dress was spot on with the rise of Diane von Furstenberg. even if they couldn't have afforded Halston, they could have had their designer take inspiration from him.

[bradsupremes]

I'm not at all surprised about motown saying shift the focus to LH - that would seem a natural since DR had a track record and the sups didnt. but then i would imagine the fact that the song stuck around, patiently waiting until LH did it's thing, it's a shame it didn't move up higher. i would wonder if around this time is when motown asked to manage the group again.

It wasn't Diana's track record but rather ABC released the 5th Dimension's version of "Love Hangover" before Motown could release Diana's. In an effort to make sure she got the hit, they put all resources into pushing her version hard. That's the reason why the momentum for "Walking" was stunted and prevented from doing a natural rise and high charting that it should have had.

[BayouMotownMan]

I'm surprised at people's strong response to Mary, Scherrie & Susaye. To me, it doesn't hold up to its predecessor. High Energy is one of my favorite Supremes album. Great songs, great production, and overall has a smooth flow to it. It's also their second best-selling and charting album of the 70s right after Right On.

Motown really dropped the ball on not pushing "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" all the way to number one. It's a number one hit record to my ears. "Walking" should have gone all the way to the top. Scherrie recalls being told Motown ordered the major radio stations to stop pushing "Walking" and push "Love Hangover" instead. What would have happened if that didn't happen?

To me, a natural follow-up to "Walking" should have been "You're What's Missing In My Life." The intro would need some revamping, eliminating most of that upbeat musical part and an editing it with them singing at the start. Had "Walking" been a huge hit, "You're What's Missing" could have easily charted in the top 40/top 20.

What Scherrie said was true, when Let my Heart was first issued. Motown was concentrating on Ross and Gaye [[I Want You). By July both of those records had peaked and by then it was the gay crowd that pushed the Supremes lp and single more than Motown did, and the song started to break nationally. It was at this point that Motown began promoting the lp and single, the disco clubs ruled the airwaves at this point, and the gay crowd successfully got these releases on the radio and to the other disco clubs.

Let My Heart to me is not very commercial. The wah wah guitar was outdated and when I was a DJ at a straight disco club near LSU, I'd play the track and it would clear the floor. The commercial disco sound then was ruled by the Bee Gees and KC and the Sunshine Band. If you listen, Don't Want To Be Tied basically sounds like KC.

I do agree that MSS was inferior to HE. It sounded rushed.

[TheMotownManiac]

It wasn't Diana's track record but rather ABC released the 5th Dimension's version of "Love Hangover" before Motown could release Diana's. In an effort to make sure she got the hit, they put all resources into pushing her version hard. That's the reason why the momentum for "Walking" was stunted and prevented from doing a natural rise and high charting that it should have had.

It partly was Diana’s track record as she was following a number one smash with a hit movie, a hit album and arguably the best stage show of her career.
however it wasn’t intended to be this way. The Supremes record was scheduled for a March 16 release, and it was released while Motown was pushing Diana‘s record I thought it took a little time. The fifth dimension forced Motown to make a choice and they went with love hangover, by far the best of the three records involved. The release of the Supremes record was pulled back. Once love hangover had hit number one, Motown got behind the Supremes record and it got to number 40. The single was receiving a bare amount of air play, however it sales did not match its AirPlay as sales only charts Canada rpm, record world and cashbox never saw the record climb into their top 50. I think Motown was working really hard with Billboard to get good numbers for the Supremes because the chart entry for high energy at 42 was light years ahead of the dismal showings on cashbox and record world where they didn’t come anywhere near the top 100.

and Motown did the logical thing that any record company would do, this was not a Supremes versus Diana thing, they had a sensational mega hit on their hands with love hangover while the Supremes record wise, to most people, maybe a slightly better than average disco song on the radio. I believe the intro alone scared off more people than it attracted. I think the fact that Motown got behind the Supremes record shows their commitment to the group.

[sup_fan]

It wasn't Diana's track record but rather ABC released the 5th Dimension's version of "Love Hangover" before Motown could release Diana's. In an effort to make sure she got the hit, they put all resources into pushing her version hard. That's the reason why the momentum for "Walking" was stunted and prevented from doing a natural rise and high charting that it should have had.

was LH always eventually considered for a single release? we know they went first with I Thought. but i can't imagine that after that song had its run they wouldn't have then moved onto LH.

clearly the club djs loved Walking and kept it alive. what's curious is that they really only looked at Walking. other than what i mentioned, none of the other songs ever make an appearance on the charts - even to be co-listed with Walking

with MSS it was much more unorganized. Wheel was first up on the charts due to it's release. but then you get all sorts of combinations of chart activity - sometimes it was Wheel and LYG. sometimes Wheel, LYG and Love I Never Knew. sometimes just LYG and Tied Down.

given the power it appears the djs had with making Walking a big hit, you'd think they would have tried to leverage that again. get the djs to focus on a track and let it grow. but maybe by this time the group inner strife was so overwhelming that it was over

[sup_fan]

What Scherrie said was true, when Let my Heart was first issued. Motown was concentrating on Ross and Gaye [[I Want You). By July both of those records had peaked and by then it was the gay crowd that pushed the Supremes lp and single more than Motown did, and the song started to break nationally. It was at this point that Motown began promoting the lp and single, the disco clubs ruled the airwaves at this point, and the gay crowd successfully got these releases on the radio and to the other disco clubs.

Let My Heart to me is not very commercial. The wah wah guitar was outdated and when I was a DJ at a straight disco club near LSU, I'd play the track and it would clear the floor. The commercial disco sound then was ruled by the Bee Gees and KC and the Sunshine Band. If you listen, Don't Want To Be Tied basically sounds like KC.

I do agree that MSS was inferior to HE. It sounded rushed.

i know we all have discussed these events a zillion times but it never gets old to me! lolol i could talk about this for days

the various opinions are fascinating. Bayou i believe you've mentioned in the past how you really liked You're What's Missing and the HE tracks. and i think you've mentioned how you thought the MSS dance tracks were too fast. and see i'm the opposite. i like the more aggressive, harder-hitting beats. also while i appreciated the "symphonic" concept with HE, all of the oboes, bassoons and all are a bit much for my taste.

but i'm talking about matters of degree here. i think HE is a very strong album. just not as interesting or cohesive as MS&S.

[Spreadinglove21]

How about Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You as the second single from High Energy? Could it have done alright?

[sup_fan]

How about Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You as the second single from High Energy? Could it have done alright?

this is one of the best Mary recordings during her entire tenure at motown. and talk about an amazing live performance on Mike Douglas!!!!! why she insisted on doing that obnoxiously sappy rendition of The Way We Were in the stage shows and not replacing with this is beyond me

as for it being a hit, i could see both yes and no

yes - a gorgeous ballad could definitely have charted. as much as I've said Scherrie deserved a bigger role in the group spotlight, i'm not meaning that mary be regulated to a backup singing just doing ooos and ahhhs. there's no reason they couldn't have released a song like this with mary lead

no - the group was in such a precarious position. they'd basically been a non-entity to the general public since early 71. Walking was a sort of comeback hit and IMO the right strategy should have been to follow it up with a similar song, like LYG. That's also why i think YWMIML or HE shouldn't have been a follow up single. both are great tunes and, had the group been successful in recent years and time, you could venture out into new territory. but with only 1 hit w Walking, the smart things would have been to follow it up quickly. a Baby Love to follow up Where Did Our Love Go.

[Ollie9]

How about Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You as the second single from High Energy? Could it have done alright?

“Teardrops” screamed hit, while perfectly showcasing Mary’s sultry vocals.
No manic choreography needed for that one lol.

[sup_fan]

here's some more HE fun facts

I believe the Supremes played a club in Toronto in Jan 76 which was Cindy's last engagement. The story i've heard is that Pedro fired her as the group was returning home and she told Scherrie in the airport "i've just been fired!!"

now what date that was, i don't know. did that mean Cindy returned to LA with the group and was immediately out? i'd guess so but again, not sure.

Susaye's first recording date [[that we know of) is Feb 20 doing her lead on Walking

Susaye is definitely on the original version of I Don't Want To Lose You as she's clearly in the backing vocals. the last date we have for back up vocal recordings on IDWTLY is 2/12.

So for sake of discussion, i'm going to assume this 2/12 is the final backing vocal recordings for IDWTLY and that Susaye was in the group by this date.

the question then comes up as to when was Cindy's last day? did she continue to do some recording work with the Supremes after the Toronto date? there's a lot of recording date work in Jan but most of it is track work with the Hollands. the girls record There's Room At The Top backing vocals on 1/6 [[im assuming Cindy was here and this was prior to Toronto). there are a few lead vocals done and then on 2/9 backing vocals for You're What's Missing start.

So is cindy really on HE? of course there certainly could be missing dates. but most of the vocals, especially the backing vocals, were done in Feb.

Also You're What's Missing had it's lead vocals recorded on 2/17, 18, 20 and 3/17. Susaye was definitely in the group at this point and i think this song could have worked great with all 3 women doing some lead lines.

[marybrewster]

i think sequins and glamour were suddenly more back in style with disco. but the style of the gowns were so out of step with things. during the Scherrie years there are a considerable amount of new outfits. 20 or so in just 3 years. plus there were tons from the Jean era. yet there are so many tv appearances with the old DRATS outfits. just odd

I think MSC looked incredible and super sexy in the black pants and lavender sequin tops from the Jean era when they appeared on Dinah. but they looked so out of place in those chiffon ball gowns on Tonight Show.

it's like Mary never once bothered to look at a Vogue or Cosmo magazine to see what fashion trends were hot. the red sequin wrap dress was spot on with the rise of Diane von Furstenberg. even if they couldn't have afforded Halston, they could have had their designer take inspiration from him.

I think the worst were the pink dresses that also had pants. They did nothing for any of the members.

Have I said this before? I was just at Macy's last night and I always run through the formal dress department. GORGEOUS gowns, for $200. In 2022. So how much was off the rack in 1976? $50? I can't wrap my brain around no new outfits. Yes, I know there were plenty of new costumes in 76/77. But still.

To your point also, about Mary reading Vogue. YES!

[jobeterob]

I think the unexpected response to HE took Motown and Gordy by surprise, they weren't expecting it. Gordy saw this as a way to keep Ross in check as she was beginning to rebell against him.

Yes there were other hits off the lp. The title track and You're What's Missing received FM play and great reaction here and overseas. Brian Holland mixed the title track for single release after IGLMHDTW cooled off, but Mary and Pedro nixed it as Susaye was too new in the group to have a hit record, they felt. This was the second time since the group reformed that Mary did this, the first being to cancel It's All Been Said Before off the first Scherrie lp. Obviously this did not set well with Motown so they probably just gave up on future hits.

MSS didn't come too soon as some momentum had been set with HE that needed to be continued. But most of us felt and still feel that the first single should have been Let Yourself Go. Driving Wheel was just an oddly structured song.

In any event, despite the group making a small comeback with HE, group tensions boiled over as Pedro continued to drive them off a cliff.

Incredibly stupid and self centred decisions on the failure to release HE and It's All Been Said Before. There was a chance for the Supremes with those songs.

And it should not have been a surprise to them and everyone that your record company loses interest in people that won't help themselves.

By the time of MSS, there was little interest left in the Supremes if they were going to do that kind of music and that kind of a release. I think they were doomed.

I would also say that not even Scherrie had a distinct enough voice to set the Supremes apart; and particularly Mary did not have a distinct enough voice. However, at the right time and the right place, Beyonce and Madonna had huge impacts and I'm not so sure their voices are all that distinct either.

[sup_fan]

I think the worst were the pink dresses that also had pants. They did nothing for any of the members.

Have I said this before? I was just at Macy's last night and I always run through the formal dress department. GORGEOUS gowns, for $200. In 2022. So how much was off the rack in 1976? $50? I can't wrap my brain around no new outfits. Yes, I know there were plenty of new costumes in 76/77. But still.

To your point also, about Mary reading Vogue. YES!

i'm not sure where the breakdown occurred by i think the ideas might have been solid but the execution fell short. like the red gowns on Sonny & Cher for Scherrie's tv debut. i think the dresses are fine but those long beaded strands on the arms were a mess. clearly never would work with any choreography. And those pink outfits - i think there's a sketch of them in the gown book or has been floating around with the fans. the drawing is something that might have worked but the fabric used on them appears so bulky!! Cindy and mary both look as big as a house in them and Scherrie only works some degrees better since she's just smaller. but yeah - not a good look

and the black jesus robes with the silver sequin panels - again the concept might have been ok. and this time the outcome is sort of the opposite of the pink things. on Cindy and mary they work to some degree because they have the height to pull them off and balance the long dress and the huge billowing sleeves. but on Scherrie and later Susaye - they're just swamped in the excessive fabric.

I asked Susaye years ago about the gowns and all. she commented on how fun the blue/purple Udo gowns were cuz what girl doesn't love fringe!!! and making it "work" while onstage. also asked her if all of the girls were involved in the selection of designs and all and she said no, that was all mary.

just like some of the FMD gowns didn't work as well on Flo's fuller figure - she looks massive in the pink chiffon My Fav Things gowns - it seems like they were designing gowns mostly around the key member. First diana and then mary. rather than looking at how the overall group looked and what worked best for each girl

i think they could have updated their image by not always being in identical outfits but at least in a set. for instance, a designer could have created white Floy Joy gowns maybe with some pops of red [[to play off the album art) but the 3 gowns are different with maybe different slits and cutaways or something. yet still coordinating and matching. Like what Destiny's child did later. there's a cohesive look but the outfits can vary so they flatter each woman.

[sup_fan]

Incredibly stupid and self centred decisions on the failure to release HE and It's All Been Said Before. There was a chance for the Supremes with those songs.

And it should not have been a surprise to them and everyone that your record company loses interest in people that won't help themselves.

By the time of MSS, there was little interest left in the Supremes if they were going to do that kind of music and that kind of a release. I think they were doomed.

I would also say that not even Scherrie had a distinct enough voice to set the Supremes apart; and particularly Mary did not have a distinct enough voice. However, at the right time and the right place, Beyonce and Madonna had huge impacts and I'm not so sure their voices are all that distinct either.

i agree with you that, in my opinion, Pedro and Mary were working to launch Mary's pop career from the group and therefore pushing her material and making the group focus entirely on her. she should have worked to keep the concept of the Supremes relevant and popular as her success would always be greatest as part of a pop group and not as a pop solo artist

however i do think Scherrie had the voice and personality to be distinct. Her vocals explode off the records where she's the lead. songs like LYG and Love I Never Knew have incredibly full and heavy backing tracks. there are so much instruments, so much going on. yet she is able to blast through all of that with enough power in her voice yet not being weighed down. also she has enough nasality to her tone that her voice penetrates through the orchestration

the problem is she rarely seems to be interviewed on tv or in print, she's tied down to where the other two are singing and so unable to really work the stage and the audience. she's the lead voice but never really a lead personality. people aren't able to associate who they're hearing on the song with who's speaking or in front of them.

[BayouMotownMan]

i agree with you that, in my opinion, Pedro and Mary were working to launch Mary's pop career from the group and therefore pushing her material and making the group focus entirely on her. she should have worked to keep the concept of the Supremes relevant and popular as her success would always be greatest as part of a pop group and not as a pop solo artist

however i do think Scherrie had the voice and personality to be distinct. Her vocals explode off the records where she's the lead. songs like LYG and Love I Never Knew have incredibly full and heavy backing tracks. there are so much instruments, so much going on. yet she is able to blast through all of that with enough power in her voice yet not being weighed down. also she has enough nasality to her tone that her voice penetrates through the orchestration

the problem is she rarely seems to be interviewed on tv or in print, she's tied down to where the other two are singing and so unable to really work the stage and the audience. she's the lead voice but never really a lead personality. people aren't able to associate who they're hearing on the song with who's speaking or in front of them.

Mary was not trying to launch a solo career from within the Supremes, she was just trying to bring some stability to the group. Lead singers kept leaving on her and both were difficult to deal with. Mary was well aware of her limitations, she spent the last few years with the group using a vocal coach and her vocal power improved; more singing, less whispering. She knew her claim to fame was being the guiding force of the Supremes.

But the bad decisions, in-group turmoil and lack of interest from Motown pretty much pushed her into a solo career. When you are booed on stage by thousands of people after 16 yrs of singing with a group...it's time to leave.

[TheMotownManiac]

was LH always eventually considered for a single release? we know they went first with I Thought. but i can't imagine that after that song had its run they wouldn't have then moved onto LH.

clearly the club djs loved Walking and kept it alive. what's curious is that they really only looked at Walking. other than what i mentioned, none of the other songs ever make an appearance on the charts - even to be co-listed with Walking

with MSS it was much more unorganized. Wheel was first up on the charts due to it's release. but then you get all sorts of combinations of chart activity - sometimes it was Wheel and LYG. sometimes Wheel, LYG and Love I Never Knew. sometimes just LYG and Tied Down.

given the power it appears the djs had with making Walking a big hit, you'd think they would have tried to leverage that again. get the djs to focus on a track and let it grow. but maybe by this time the group inner strife was so overwhelming that it was over

I am certain that love hangover was always going to be a single, because:

1. The fact that they went into mega overdrive to get it out there when the fifth dimension was doing it. If they didn’t see it as single material they wouldn’t have cared

2 The fact that they got it out so quickly, indicates that they had the single edit ready.

3. The song was a focal point of her new show that she was touring Europe with.

4. Anyone with an ear knew before the 45 was over that it was going to be number one. It had smash written all over it.


The DJs really didn’t have much to do with the song becoming a hit. It was climbing at the disco charts a month or two at least before it’s “re-release date”. Motown got behind it, there’s no other explanation considering the dates.

[bradsupremes]

What I find interesting are people who don't think "Walking" had what it took to go higher on the charts. When a incredibly dumb song like "Disco Duck" could come out the same year and go to number one, it's rather silly to question the potential of "Walking." "Walking" had all the right elements to be their big return hit. Motown dropped the ball.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I agree that hits just don't happen, they are "made" by promotions to djs at the time. It seems Motown was faltering in its choices for singles and promotion at this time. "Walking" easily should have gone higher on the charts-perhaps top 20 or even top 10. It was a standout and exciting tune that was much better than regular disco fare. Even with Ross, they released I Thought as the first single because it was more in the vein of Do You Know but the real winner was Love Hangover. They wouldn't have released it when they did had the 5th Dimension not released their version causing Motown to no longer push the first single but release Hangover and push it. Yes, there was a lot going on with the Supremes and consistent members but Mary held in there, Scherrie was a real gem and Susaye's voice was a real find. Walking could have been the key to walk out the door for more hits and a resurgence of the group. Had they had Motown backing, they had the right sound and glamour to really hit again during the disco era.

[BobbyC]

Love Hangover: I just went through several decades worth of Billboard and Cashbox magazines and looked at all the charts--here's what I learned. Love Hangover, Diana's version, was HUGE in the clubs from the second DR's album was released, long before Motown released it as a single. It was just an album cut but it skyrocketed into the disco top tens all across the US---even before the 5th recorded a cover. LaMonte M from the 5th claims he heard the song as an obscure album cut, as if he just discovered it when he played DR's album, but the truth was it was already being played everywhere. I think this was the real reason Motown rush-released LH--not so much because of the 5th's cover

[BayouMotownMan]

Bobby, LH was ABSOLUTELY released because of the 5th Dimension version coming out.

Motown planned for I Thought It Took to be the next hit as it was in the same vein as the Mahogany track. The song was taking off and was destined for Top Ten if not another No. 1. The single mix was absolutely stunning, Ross's best vocal in years.

LH was planned to follow it. The strategy was to build the song in the clubs and then issue a single for mainstream America. Well that was happening but when the 5th Dimension, struggling for a hit sans McCoo and Davis copied and released the song, Ross hit the roof and called Gordy from Europe demanding he issue her version now. So I Thought It Took was pulled and LH went out.

Diana Ross even issued an interview that is floating out there where she chastized the 5th for stealing her record. "They're a good group but they need to get their own record." I remember hearing that. The 5th got on Bandstand and admitted taking the song with Florence LaRue lamenting that Motown rush released the original recorded by "another artist" and it "will be interesting to see which one is the bigger hit." Well, there was no contest there.

Diana Ross and Berry Gordy are competitive people. To punish the group Gordy signed them to a recording contract with Motown after several more changes in the 5th Dimension had been made and they were cold. Motown issued one good lp followed by a mediocre lp and then dropped them in 1979, leaving them cold as ice permanently.

[sup_fan]

so here's a question for everyone

if I Thought was a natural followup to Mahogany, would it have needed the extra push that they applied to LH? of course motown was going to promote it but would they have needed to "drop everything" and align all forces behind I Thought? given it's a stunning song and a natural to follow Mahogany, i think it would have easily scored on it's own.

meanwhile you have the Sups releasing Walking and it's immediately hitting with the club djs. Would motown have gotten behind it a bit more seeing this renewed interest in the group? of course you still have the issue of Mary not returning the group to motown's management and pedro fighting with everyone. but makes an interesting consideration

[BobbyC]

Bayou--that is true--all I'm saying is that LH was already a hit before it was actually released as a single. I didn't know that until I reviewed the old trades.

[Boogiedown]

The club DJs had everything to do with HANGOVER being a hit. They made it known this cut existed. They didn’t wait on the chance it would eventually be released. This was part of the fun - especially in the earliest days of club music - the seeking out what a DJ would want to feature in his club, finding the special stuff. Word of mouth amongst this group was also part of the process.

Common pop and soul radio stations were not clamoring for yet another disco record on their limited rotation, even if by someone like Diana Ross. But once there was the public awareness and demand generated by the clubs , oh yes they weren’t going to be the station where it couldn’t be heard.
Motown couldn’t afford to let this one slip by by stalling a few weeks and needed to rush release it in order to ride the wave.
The 5D certainly exasperated the situation.

[BayouMotownMan]

Bayou--that is true--all I'm saying is that LH was already a hit before it was actually released as a single. I didn't know that until I reviewed the old trades.

Yes Bobby, it was a hit in the disco clubs, which meant it was requested by party goers. It helped sell the Diana Ross album itself but LH didn't become a commercial hit until later in the spring when Motown issued it as a single. A No. 1 disco chart hit amounts to maybe 40K to 50K in actual sales back in the day, a real "hit" had to chart high on the Hot 100 to accumulate big numbers. During the time we are discussing Motown was using it to sell the lp.

Also keep in mind that promotional strategies were changing in the mid to late 70s. A single release was basically used to sell an accompanying lp. FM radio was now the dominant airwave and record companies would let FM play sell an lp without issuing that song as a single. Case in point would be Commodores "Zoom" and Stevie's "Isn't She Lovely." Both were big radio hits but never released as a single. Then again sometimes a record company would see the overwhelming response to a song in the clubs or on radio and issue it as a single which is what happened with LH and the Commodores "Brick House," and later Smokey's "Cruisin." None of those songs were chosen as preferred singles off a new lp. They were demanded out.

Radio had a lot of power then. Charlene's "Never Been To Me" was issued as a single in 1977 and sank. A radio station in Florida kept playing it and the response was always positive, so finally stations in surrounding markets began playing it because of requests. Finally five years later Motown issued it as a single and it went through the roof. The artist, Charlene, had already been dropped from the label. Motown scurried to find her to get her back under contract and issue an lp to capitalize on this. Charlene was working a regular job I think in the UK and Motown found her, re-signed her and for a couple years she was a hot artist. When the label could not follow up on her hit, she was once again dropped about two years later.

Business is always dirty.

[TheMotownManiac]

The album was released mid-week before Valentine’s weekend when it was already a club hit. It was great hearing Diana in the clubs finally - and with a block buster where there was actual audible crowd excitement when the intro hit. We were used to hearing the supremes from the previous summer, but this was a huge first.

[reese]

so here's a question for everyone

if I Thought was a natural followup to Mahogany, would it have needed the extra push that they applied to LH? of course motown was going to promote it but would they have needed to "drop everything" and align all forces behind I Thought? given it's a stunning song and a natural to follow Mahogany, i think it would have easily scored on it's own.

meanwhile you have the Sups releasing Walking and it's immediately hitting with the club djs. Would motown have gotten behind it a bit more seeing this renewed interest in the group? of course you still have the issue of Mary not returning the group to motown's management and pedro fighting with everyone. but makes an interesting consideration

I remember hearing ITITALT on the radio quite a bit when it was released. To me, it built on the pop feel of THEME FROM MAHOGANY but added a touch of "soul", for lack of a better word.

Would it have been a hit? Who knows? It might have been like Diana's other 70s singles: either hit #1 or miss the Top 10 completely. And of course, as with most of her other singles, Diana probably wouldn't have done any tv appearances to promote it so again, who knows?

[Boogiedown]

Hmm how could HANGOVER already be a club hit ahead of the album ?

[sup_fan]

Hmm how could HANGOVER already be a club hit ahead of the album ?

the album was released on 2/10/76 so a couple weeks prior to I Thought even being released. plus they could have issued advance, promotional copies of the album to djs and radio stations.

also according to the DR 76 booklet, they were still recording elements of LH as late as 1/23/76. so it certainly couldn't have been out in dj hands until it was recorded lol

[sup_fan]

I remember hearing ITITALT on the radio quite a bit when it was released. To me, it built on the pop feel of THEME FROM MAHOGANY but added a touch of "soul", for lack of a better word.

Would it have been a hit? Who knows? It might have been like Diana's other 70s singles: either hit #1 or miss the Top 10 completely. And of course, as with most of her other singles, Diana probably wouldn't have done any tv appearances to promote it so again, who knows?

but motown had had a very odd release strategy for DR, combined with her movie and pregnancies. there wasn't really an appropriate follow up to Touch Me In the Morning. After Mountain they released Remember Me which got into the top 20. and is surprising it didn't go a little higher. but then they issued EIE and that threw everything out of whack. There was little promotion for the entire Surrender project as Diana was very preg at the time.

given the intense care and interest Berry placed on the Supremes music back in the day, you'd think he would have done the same with Diana's early solo work

[sup_fan]

more interesting chart data on MSS

Billboard introduced their national disco charts at the beginning of Sept 76. they also began to publish a specific list of regional charts, whereas prior it had been sort of random as to what cities were listed and when they were listed. some appeared now and then, or once or random or whatever

YMDW was released as a single on 9/30. MS&S was releases as an lp in october [[don't have the exact date).

the first disco chart activity is on 11/13. and as i mentioned prior, sometimes it was Wheel, sometimes LYG or various combinations

on the National Charts, Wheel/LYG/LINKYCFSG peaked at #5 on 1/8. regionally, the highest chart activity was San Fran with YMDW/LYG at #2 on 12/11 and then in Atlanta YMDW/LYG/DWBTD at #2 on 1/22

Denver, Pitt, Detroit, DFW/Houston, Seattle, Montreal, NOLA - no supremes disco charting at all on any tunes.

Philly only had Come Into My Life chart for 1 week on 1/22/77 at #15, after the Soul Train appearance.

chicago had some initial chart action with Wheel and then Wheel/LYG. but then they just went hard on LYG. it wsa in the top ten there for 10 weeks, listed by itself. and the chart run lasted the longest - into early March 77

san Fran got behind it quickly and it did well. but then the clubs there must have moved on. by Jan 77, all of the Sup tracks were gone from the SFO charts

LA has been big with Walking. it peaked at #5 and was on the charts there for 14 weeks. but with the MS&S work, they charted for 4 weeks and peaked at #10

[Boogiedown]

Supfan:
LA has been big with Walking. it peaked at #5 and was on the charts there for 14 weeks. but with the MS&S work, they charted for 4 weeks and peaked at #10

Times were changing rapidly and DJs were becoming drunk in their power. What they were willing to do with HEART/WALKING: make it a hit despite no special servicing or 12" pressing, they weren't so inclined with MSS. If those promos, and in the increasingly mandatory 12" format, weren't waiting for them in their slot at the record pool, there was plenty of other music that was.

[sup_fan]

Times were changing rapidly and DJs were becoming drunk in their power. What they were willing to do with HEART/WALKING: make it a hit despite no special servicing or 12" pressing, they weren't so inclined with MSS. If those promos, and in the increasingly mandatory 12" format, weren't waiting for them in their slot at the record pool, there was plenty of other music that was.

god i'd love a 12" of LYG. or frankly any of the Sup disco tracks. the lp versions are obviously longer than the 45s but the 12" would have extended it further

but even with DR, they only released a couple. again, to your point, this might be why she struggled with her disco content at times. although i'd also say the disco/dance tracks on Baby It's Me just pale in comparison to the content on a mega album like Saturday Night Fever which was just so huge. the Bee Gee songs really took the disco genre to a whole new level. A tune like Your Love is So Good For Me just couldn't compete

[Boogiedown]

Sup don’t get me started !

a list of what Motown issued on 12” during the disco era would be fun to review. For some reason most of what they chose was their crappier stuff.
I suspect they were afraid of pigeon holing Ross as a disco artist, a genre viewed as a fad with a limited audience [[ young dancers). they’d already gone to
Too much trouble to
make her something bigger .
now for the supremes , disco offered a needed opportunity. HOW. Motown mucked that up is unexplainable.

The BEE GEES cuts from Saturday night were serviced to the pools with a special custom 12” packaging.

[sup_fan]

there was a total of 11 12" singles released on Motown prior to 1979

*The Originals/Jermaine Jackson Down to Love town/Let's be young tonight
*Thelma Houston/Commodores Don't leave me this way/fancy dancer
*Eddie Kendricks/Willie Hutch Goin' up in smoke/shake it, shake it
*Smokey Robinson/Jerry butler Vitamin U/Chalk it up
*Syreeta/Jennifer one to one/do it for me
*Eddie Kendricks/21st Creation Born again/Tailgate
*Commodores Brick House [[d/s)
*Carl Bean I was born this way/I was born this way [[instrumental)
*Ernie Fields jr Ride a wild horse/As
*Diana Ross/thelma Houston your love is so good for me/i can't on living without you
*diana ross/bonnie pointer what you gave me/free me from my freedom


there were 21 12" releases in 1979 alone. Not going to list all of them

Diana and the group doing Pops We Love You
Diana Ross The Boss/Lovin' Livin' Givin'
Mary Wilson Red Hot/Midnight Dancer

then in 80 we got the 12" of the sup medley/no one gets the prize-the boss

oddly enough none of the chic tracks were made into a 12"

the label continued for years to do these 12" on all sorts of artists

[sup_fan]

i have a copy of the DR/Thelma 12" and the artwork is ok at best. it's not in color. the cover is sort of split screen style in that both women are photographed. But they just used the shot from Baby it's Me for Diana. the top of the cover says "Double Disco" but it's really quite unimaginative. and cheap looking

[BobbyC]

Boogie i think you read my post incorrectly. I said LH was a hit in the clubs as an album cut. And it was.Don't you remember our little talk about that sass?

Bayou I never knew that Isn't She Lovely wasn't a single! I guess I just assumed it was since I heard it many, many times on pop radio.

I wish I've Never Been To Me had never been to my ear drums. Hated that song. My mother loved it, and she loved It's My Turn too. Blech.

[bradsupremes]

I wish I've Never Been To Me had never been to my ear drums. Hated that song. My mother loved it, and she loved It's My Turn too. Blech.

That song really is a piece of dribble. I can’t believe it became a hit. I can’t believe Ron Miller wrote a plop like that. More perplexing is that Motown would even sign Charlene. There’s no color or character to her voice - very bland.

[Boogiedown]

Boogie i think you read my post incorrectly. I said LH was a hit in the clubs as an album cut. And it was.Don't you remember our little talk about that sass?



I wish I've Never Been To Me had never been to my ear drums. Hated that song. My mother loved it, and she loved It's My Turn too. Blech.

?? Bobby if you mean this post :

Originally Posted by Boogiedown Hmm how could HANGOVER already be a club hit ahead of the album ?

it was in response to Musicmaniac:

The album was released mid-week before Valentine’s weekend when it was already a club hit. It was great hearing Diana in the clubs finally - and with a block buster where there was actual audible crowd excitement when the intro hit. We were used to hearing the supremes from the previous summer, but this was a huge first.

Yes we did cover all this awhile back ....what's sass??

IVE NEVER BEEN TO ME is evidence that not all hits are dependent on proper promotion. I never knew it had been recorded years earlier. I felt it had an oddly dated sound at the time of its hitdom.