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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i have a copy of the DR/Thelma 12" and the artwork is ok at best. it's not in color. the cover is sort of split screen style in that both women are photographed. But they just used the shot from Baby it's Me for Diana. the top of the cover says "Double Disco" but it's really quite unimaginative. and cheap looking






    yes, double disco duds

    and a perfect example of Motown's poor use of the format.

  2. #52
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    I was just messing with you, Boogie baby! Yeah I thought you were referring to my post but I stand corrected

  3. #53
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    Oh you!!

    so what is SASS .....??

  4. #54
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    Sass is when you, say, give your parents some back talk, some attitude. Both are sass.

  5. #55
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    Originally Posted by sup_fan
    the album was released on 2/10/76 so a couple weeks prior to I Thought even being released. plus they could have issued advance, promotional copies of the album to djs and radio stations.

    also according to the DR 76 booklet, they were still recording elements of LH as late as 1/23/76. so it certainly couldn't have been out in dj hands until it was recorded lol
    I had been under the mis-impression that IT TOOK A LITTLE predated the LPs release , forcing Motown's hand , obligating it as the chosen first single. I did not realize they had the choice of choosing HANGOVER first, but didn't.

    Since they didn't, they wouldn't have promo'd the clubs with the album right off as that would work against their strategy of delaying HANGOVER's turn for the future.

    Moulton column on 2-28- 76:




    NEW YORK-

    Stacking up as the hottest sound this week is the "Love Hangover "cut on
    Diana Ross' new album. .Although the song starts slowly; its soon breaks into a faster sound,
    with a brief hand-clapping segment leading theway. Eventually, the listener is given a group
    sound with Ross singing leads.Interestingly,
    earlier in the song,you recognize a similarity be-
    tween Ross and Donna Summer.
    This is the closest thing to heavy soul that
    the Motown songstress has ever done,and it seems that the track is deliberately laid back,so
    as not to make it too strong an r&b sound. When
    played in discos, with the volume up and the highs coming through,it should prove a natural
    winner
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 07-01-2022 at 07:05 PM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Sass is when you, say, give your parents some back talk, some attitude. Both are sass.
    Perfect ! I thought it was some kinda acronym

  7. #57
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    Thoughts:

    -Both "High Energy" and "Teardrops" were missed single opportunities. I'm not convinced HE would have been a hit, but I also wouldn't bet against it. I think it was fresh enough to make waves if given the right promotion. R&B radio would have probably played it. The question for me is would pop radio have done the same. "Teardrops" sounds like a hit to me. This was a lost opportunity for Mary.

    -Nobody has been able to explain to me when exactly did Mary Wilson of the Supremes become powerful enough to dictate to Motown regarding releases? The accusation of her [[and Pedro) nixing "Said Before" in favor of "He's My Man" is mentioned every few months or so, and yet it still doesn't make sense to me. Diana begged for "Reach Out and Touch" to be her first single. Begged. And she had a connection to Gordy where she could ask and have a prayer in having the request granted. And still she had to beg. Diana Ross, begging. And I'm supposed to believe that Motown wanted "It's All Been Said Before" as a single and Mary walked up in there, made a demand, and walked out without any Motown push back? I need more convincing. Make it make sense.

    -Mary declining Motown's management might appear to be a mistake in hindsight, but the truth is that Motown had not given her any reason to trust them to do right by the group as managers. A year or so before, the label was perfectly willing to let the group die a quiet death, not realizing Mary was doing some serious CPR. Now she's supposed to hand over management to them just because they ask? What was the pitch? Did Motown even have any ideas, or was this a maneuver to kill the group even faster? If Mary was braindead for declining, Motown had to be braindead for asking and expecting her to go along to get along, like Mary of the 1960s, as if she isn't in her 30s at that point.

  8. #58
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    Ran - i'm not sure of exact timings of things or who was officially in charge of what. i don't think the QC concept was around anywhere near the structure or format that it was back in the 60s. so i don't know that there was a much label control over things as there was before. what that structure was though in 75, i don't know. and of course we're all interpreting things in hindsight

    i'm sort of going to merge your comments

    we all know after L and J left, motown didn't give 2 shits about the group and probably figured the group disbanded. however as we know, the girls gamely carried on, not only playing the dates originally booked for the JML lineup in late 73 but also securing a few amount of new bookings as MSC. tv shows did continue too and reviews were solid. so motown didn't at least officially cancel the group and their contracts.

    but we know they weren't really caring about them. my guess is that's why Sup 75 is loaded with so many Mary leads and many of the songs are questionable at best, in terms of performances and quality, and other really much better material was left in the can. i don't think anyone can convince me as to why Where Is It I Belong and This Is Why were included and yet I Can Never Recover, Sha La, Seed of Love and Bend a little were tossed aside. but that's another discussion. I think Motown wanted It's All Been Said due to the strong commercial pop sound and Scherrie's very strong vocals. mary/Pedro were trying to get mary's voice as lead or at least co-lead of the group. so motown probably said "fine - whatever, we could care less anyway"

    so i don't know how much of a "fight" it was but it was certainly a conflict with motown. motown prob thought the more pop-appealing song would sell more and so that was that

    as for Mary's hesitation with turning management back over to motown, yes i get it. very true that the group was in the predicament that they were in heavily due to motown's shoddy promotional efforts. But Mary was also not a naïve girl anymore. she knew politics were central to the whole "business" side of things. she should have realized that motown was only setting up because the girls had been successful mostly due to motown's lack of work. but you have to strike when the iron is hot. there was a resurgence of interest in the group and a fresh hit. having motown in their corner could only have helped the next song go further. there was a limit after all as to what the girls and group could do on their own

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Thoughts:

    -Both "High Energy" and "Teardrops" were missed single opportunities. I'm not convinced HE would have been a hit, but I also wouldn't bet against it. I think it was fresh enough to make waves if given the right promotion. R&B radio would have probably played it. The question for me is would pop radio have done the same. "Teardrops" sounds like a hit to me. This was a lost opportunity for Mary.

    -Nobody has been able to explain to me when exactly did Mary Wilson of the Supremes become powerful enough to dictate to Motown regarding releases? The accusation of her [[and Pedro) nixing "Said Before" in favor of "He's My Man" is mentioned every few months or so, and yet it still doesn't make sense to me. Diana begged for "Reach Out and Touch" to be her first single. Begged. And she had a connection to Gordy where she could ask and have a prayer in having the request granted. And still she had to beg. Diana Ross, begging. And I'm supposed to believe that Motown wanted "It's All Been Said Before" as a single and Mary walked up in there, made a demand, and walked out without any Motown push back? I need more convincing. Make it make sense.

    -Mary declining Motown's management might appear to be a mistake in hindsight, but the truth is that Motown had not given her any reason to trust them to do right by the group as managers. A year or so before, the label was perfectly willing to let the group die a quiet death, not realizing Mary was doing some serious CPR. Now she's supposed to hand over management to them just because they ask? What was the pitch? Did Motown even have any ideas, or was this a maneuver to kill the group even faster? If Mary was braindead for declining, Motown had to be braindead for asking and expecting her to go along to get along, like Mary of the 1960s, as if she isn't in her 30s at that point.
    RR-

    Mary axing "Said Before" is another Motown myth, just like the Marvelettes turning down "WDOLG". No one at Motown had that much veto power, except for maybe Marvin.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    RR-

    Mary axing "Said Before" is another Motown myth, just like the Marvelettes turning down "WDOLG". No one at Motown had that much veto power, except for maybe Marvin.
    I imagine Stevie also had veto power.

    Regarding "Where", I find that story more plausible than Mary booting "Said". I could see a scenario where the Marvelettes, or any group or artist, thumbs down the idea of recording a song. I'm betting it happened more than once for most of the acts on the label at one time or another, especially if a song was proving hard to sing or nail down in rehearsal or a run through. [[Not that "Where" was a difficult song to sing for anyone.) And I imagine sometimes the producers just didn't want to fight with a singer to record a song unless the producer thought it was worth it. HDH may have thought it wasn't worth the time with the Marvelettes, but when the Supremes complained, HDH may have thought this was the fit the song needed and went to bat for it. HDH may have also thought that they let one group get away with blowing off this great song, they weren't about to make it two.

    Sup does make a plausible point that Mary voiced her opposition to "Said" and Motown was like "well whatever". But it still seems to me that if Motown really thought they had a winner in "Said" and Scherrie, the label would have done what it wanted to do if it meant money in Motown's pocket. The label wasn't churning out hits like it once did, so if they heard one in whatever the Supremes recorded, that's what they would have gone with, me thinks.

  11. #61
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    also Mary and Pedro were pushing to replace Said with HMM. now i'm not a huge fan of the tune because 1) the lyric is just a bit too silly and 2) mary's sleepy dusty vocals are completely incongruous to the very animated backing track.

    i do think the song could still work as a multi-lead track. Scherrie should have done the bulk of the vocals, especially the first verse to grab people's attention. but i think sharing of lines and trading off between MSC would have made the song very fun.

    HMM is certainly a strong dance track and so M/P would have at least had that on their side as justification for the change. it's not like they were trying to get Mary's lead on the idiotic Where is It I Belong as a single or her only so-so lead on Give Out. they were pushing a very strong dance track and that this could break into the disco market which was untapped by motown at the time.

  12. #62
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    here's another interesting observation, from the DR Project website

    the album is called High Energy yet nearly half of the lp is quite devoid of energy.

    could Side 2 have been reworked as
    Teardrops
    Can we love again
    I Can Never Recover
    You're What's Missing

  13. #63
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    To my ears, Motown had a winner with "It's All Been Said Before". If it's true Mary blocked it, Mary was a fool.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    To my ears, Motown had a winner with "It's All Been Said Before". If it's true Mary blocked it, Mary was a fool.
    i agree - according to the dates we have, IABSB recording dates were done by mid Deb 74. you could have released it quickly in either Dec [[although that would have been right on top of Christmas so prob not a good idea) or early Jan 75. the #1 songs in early 75 include Lucy in the Sky [[Elton John), Mandy [[Barry Manilow) Please Mr Postman [[the carpenters)

    While disco was starting to emerge in popular music, it hadn't taken over the charts or the country like it would in 77 with Sat Night Fever. You could have easily focus on IABSB, then Color My World Blue. then maybe another pop tune like You Can't Stop a Girl.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    also Mary and Pedro were pushing to replace Said with HMM. now i'm not a huge fan of the tune because 1) the lyric is just a bit too silly and 2) mary's sleepy dusty vocals are completely incongruous to the very animated backing track.

    i do think the song could still work as a multi-lead track. Scherrie should have done the bulk of the vocals, especially the first verse to grab people's attention. but i think sharing of lines and trading off between MSC would have made the song very fun.

    HMM is certainly a strong dance track and so M/P would have at least had that on their side as justification for the change. it's not like they were trying to get Mary's lead on the idiotic Where is It I Belong as a single or her only so-so lead on Give Out. they were pushing a very strong dance track and that this could break into the disco market which was untapped by motown at the time.
    Have you ever listened to Scherrie's vocal with the Flos on He's My Man because if you have there's not much difference in Mary's take of the song.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod_rick View Post
    Have you ever listened to Scherrie's vocal with the Flos on He's My Man because if you have there's not much difference in Mary's take of the song.
    yeah but that's not a truly fair comparison, seeing as Scherrie was a middle aged woman then. vocally she's amazing still but women's voices gain heaviness as they age. listen to her remake of her own Let Yourself Go for a perfect example of this change

    the backing track for HMM has, literally, just about every instrument in the symphonic orchestra in full use. just like the huge orchestration on Wheel, LYG and Love i Never Knew. In addition, HMM and these 3 dance tunes from MS&S leap out of the gate from beat 1 and race to the ending. the DR Project website describes Wheel as the musical equivalent of a car careening out of control on a winding mountain road lol. on these 3 MS&S tracks, Scherrie is extremely powerful yet her voice is quite nimble - she's never swamped or overwhelmed by the music and yet her voice still carries a lightness and brightness

    that vocal approach is needed on much of the verses for HMM

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    I don't think "It's All Been Said Before" is the hit people think it could have been. It just kind of plods along and doesn't go anywhere. I don't hear a memorable hook or melodic moment that leaves you wanting more or to hear it again. At times it sounds like Scherrie is almost on the verge of straining, not quite there yet but a note or two higher away. Comparing it to the hits they had with Jean, does this song feel like it belongs in the same category as those? It doesn't. I'm rather surprised Motown even considered it for single release. "He's My Man" shouldn't have been the alternate choice though, but at least that one grabs you immediately.

    If Motown was trying to appeal to a pop top 40 crowd - I would have given the single to "The Sha-La Bandit," "Color My World Blue," or "Give Out, But Don't Give Up."

    If Motown wanted to launch the girls into the emerging disco scene - "Bend A Little" is the only choice. That was a lost disco hit.
    Last edited by bradsupremes; 07-03-2022 at 11:41 PM.

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    Am I just missing it, or is there no entry for "It's All Been Said Before" in DFTMC?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Am I just missing it, or is there no entry for "It's All Been Said Before" in DFTMC?
    DFTMC covers Motown up to 1973. They have a few things post 1973 but it focuses on when Motown was still headquartered in Detroit.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Am I just missing it, or is there no entry for "It's All Been Said Before" in DFTMC?
    If this helps, Mary, here's the recording info from the box set:

    Produced by Michael Lloyd for Mike Curb Productions. Arranged by Michael Lloyd. Strings arranged by Oliver Thomas. Supremes vocals recorded December 11, 12, & 13, 1974; all other dates unknown.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yeah but that's not a truly fair comparison, seeing as Scherrie was a middle aged woman then. vocally she's amazing still but women's voices gain heaviness as they age. listen to her remake of her own Let Yourself Go for a perfect example of this change

    the backing track for HMM has, literally, just about every instrument in the symphonic orchestra in full use. just like the huge orchestration on Wheel, LYG and Love i Never Knew. In addition, HMM and these 3 dance tunes from MS&S leap out of the gate from beat 1 and race to the ending. the DR Project website describes Wheel as the musical equivalent of a car careening out of control on a winding mountain road lol. on these 3 MS&S tracks, Scherrie is extremely powerful yet her voice is quite nimble - she's never swamped or overwhelmed by the music and yet her voice still carries a lightness and brightness

    that vocal approach is needed on much of the verses for HMM
    I find Mary's vocals perfectly suited for
    HMM and I enjoy the counterpoint vocals with Scherrie. I always found it interesting that many in this group considered it over when Jean left. Many say that since there wasn't this high, fluty, nasal voice on leads like Diana and Jean that the group was over It is nice to see a compliment on Scherrie's vocal ability. Mary's vocals were also quite good and she stated on the 75 LP she lost her voice because she was given leads meant for Scherrie at Pedro's insistence and it was psychosomatic. I think HMM and Early Morning Love were initially set for Scherrie but I actually think I prefer Mary's voice on those songs. Plus, they released HMM and the second single was Where Do I Go From Here with Scherrie only on lead and it didn't do as well. If Motown was excited for IABSB, why wasn't it chosen as the second single instead? I honestly don't think Mary had that much power but I also think Motown didn't care about the group, Berry was infatuated with Diana and directing Mahogany, so perhaps the ones left just went along with Mary and Pedro even if it meant less money. So, does anyone know why IABSB wasn't chosen as the second single? I never liked WDIGFH all that much. Why did they not include Bend A Little, which was quite catchy and danceable? HE proved that there was certainly a sound from this group that fit the times[[Old gowns and stage show not included) that really could have gone somewhere. Mary excelled in ballads and she did excellent on the last 2 LPs. Scherrie's vocals were always strong and stood out. Susaye's high voice was distinctive and her ad libs added a lot of flavor to the grouping. I totally understand Mary singing more leads, there did need to be some consistency. I think Scherrie would have stayed with the group unlike Diana and Jean. I think Motown missed that Mary could have been their balladeer for the company. I think Berry just never liked her voice and I could never understand that given that he had a similar sound with Mary Wells plus Berry wanted Freda on Motown so Scherrie had a similar voice, he couldn't think of what to do with her? Jean was an amazing vocalist, but in hindsight Berry may have been right to want to replace her. Still, Scherrie and Mary did wonderful on the last 3 albums. I really think it had the talent to continue and flourish.

  22. #72
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    I agree completely, Jim. People are so critical about Mary's vocals but as a kid, I couldn't have told the difference between Mary's voice and Scherrie's. Today I can, but back then, no. Scherrie was a phenomenal vocalist and extremely pretty--but more than that she helped bring the tired group into the present. When I look at the Jean years, I see a group that didn't grow or change with the times--like they were running on fumes. From 1975 on, the group felt invigorated. Scherrie was the key. I love her.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Diana Ross even issued an interview that is floating out there where she chastized the 5th for stealing her record. "They're a good group but they need to get their own record."
    Gloria Gaynor even issued an interview in 1995 where she chastized Diana Ross for stealing I Will Survive. "She's a good singer, but she needs to get her own anthem." lol.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    I agree completely, Jim. People are so critical about Mary's vocals but as a kid, I couldn't have told the difference between Mary's voice and Scherrie's. Today I can, but back then, no. Scherrie was a phenomenal vocalist and extremely pretty--but more than that she helped bring the tired group into the present. When I look at the Jean years, I see a group that didn't grow or change with the times--like they were running on fumes. From 1975 on, the group felt invigorated. Scherrie was the key. I love her.
    i agree that the later half of the Jean years seems to be a struggle. part of it might be the lack of an obvious popular music genre. you had the rise of the singer-songwriter, explosion of harder rock, full on soul singers and groups. the sups didn't seem to connect to any of these particularly well. but there was a bit of a pop resurgence in the mid 70s and then of course disco. i think that helped but you're right - Scherrie was a force to be reckoned with!

    with HMM's i don't think that Mary should of have done the backups. the lyrics are playful and sexy and so some of Mary's smoky sexiness would have been fun. I would have had Scherrie do Verse 1 "as i go through the week, counting all the days..." Her mega voice would have had literally leapt out of the record. Then maybe Mary does "and when I'm need cheering up" and cindy does does "when i'm feeling kinda low" then the group goes into the amazing 3 part harmony

    then verse 2 could maybe start with Mary "all i need is that he shine his smile on me, when i'm all alone needing company" then scherrie "And he's the only man who can make me feel that his love in honest, that his love is real" Cindy then "and when my spirit's sinking down" and the group "need a lift off the ground!!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    If Motown wanted to launch the girls into the emerging disco scene - "Bend A Little" is the only choice. That was a lost disco hit.
    Bend a little is a great track but but the oooo's by the girls on "That's all we gotta do" is annoying. maybe tweaking it a bit to be more like the "whoo hooos" in Walking would have given it a stronger sound and more life. Or mix them up and do different treatments. the 3-part harmony is great but needed some adjustments

    i think Color My World would have been a good mix of pop/disco

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    there was a total of 11 12" singles released on Motown prior to 1979

    *The Originals/Jermaine Jackson Down to Love town/Let's be young tonight
    *Thelma Houston/Commodores Don't leave me this way/fancy dancer
    *Eddie Kendricks/Willie Hutch Goin' up in smoke/shake it, shake it
    *Smokey Robinson/Jerry butler Vitamin U/Chalk it up
    *Syreeta/Jennifer one to one/do it for me
    *Eddie Kendricks/21st Creation Born again/Tailgate
    *Commodores Brick House [[d/s)
    *Carl Bean I was born this way/I was born this way [[instrumental)
    *Ernie Fields jr Ride a wild horse/As
    *Diana Ross/thelma Houston your love is so good for me/i can't on living without you
    *diana ross/bonnie pointer what you gave me/free me from my freedom


    there were 21 12" releases in 1979 alone. Not going to list all of them

    Diana and the group doing Pops We Love You
    Diana Ross The Boss/Lovin' Livin' Givin'
    Mary Wilson Red Hot/Midnight Dancer

    then in 80 we got the 12" of the sup medley/no one gets the prize-the boss

    oddly enough none of the chic tracks were made into a 12"

    the label continued for years to do these 12" on all sorts of artists
    Thank you Sup!
    …..and then there are the promo only 12” pressings for the clubs, such as LOVE HANGOVER.

    Fantasy concerning those Motown two-fer releases:
    what if the label had released HANGOVER as one side and HEART/WALKING as the other.
    A Diana Ross and The Supremes 12”.
    That would’ve been cool in every sense of the word !!!

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    Thank you Sup!
    …..and then there are the promo only 12” pressings for the clubs, such as LOVE HANGOVER.

    Fantasy concerning those Motown two-fer releases:
    what if the label had released HANGOVER as one side and HEART/WALKING as the other.
    A Diana Ross and The Supremes 12”.
    That would’ve been cool in every sense of the word !!!
    i thought the Sups definitely could have qualified for a 12" duo - even in their weakened state, they were still bigger than many of those artists included. and after HMM was a pretty solid hit in 75, there seems to have been sufficient interest

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    as i've mentioned prior to Sept 76, there was only the NYC regional charts in Billboard and occasionally they'd add in other regional markets like LA, Boston, DC, etc. but those were sporadic. for the Sup 75 album, it only charted on the Melody Song Shops Brooklyn/Long Island/Queens.

    there was a lot of chart action though for the girls here.

    HMM [[by itself) peaked at #2 [[not 1)
    WDIGFH [[by itself) #3
    HMM/WDIGFH co-listed #1
    This is why - peaked at #1, yes at #1 and it peaked over a month PRIOR to HMM/WDIGFH
    EML - peaked at 6
    CMWB 9

    so technically 3 songs from Sup 75 hit Regional #1. not just HMM

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Plus, they released HMM and the second single was Where Do I Go From Here with Scherrie only on lead and it didn't do as well.
    yes and no on WDIGFH

    it was actually co-listed with HMM on the regional NYC disco chart when HMM hit #1, so WDIGFH also hit #1. when the two songs charted on the regional disco charts by themselves, HMM hit 2 and WDIGFH 3.

    the group also did 0 promotion of WDIGFH. it was released as a single in early Sept 75 yet they never did it on tv. the Tonight Show performance was in late September, well after WDIGFH was released but they opted to do HMM. they also did their second Dinah performance in Sept but also did HMM, and did it a second time on the show as they had done it back in June too.

    i don't know if it ever made it into the stage show. i have a bootleg of the Manchester UK show they did in early Sept and it includes This is why, HMM, Early morning love from the album but no WDIGFH.

    so the group was still pushing HMM in the fall of 75 instead of moving onto the new single.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    I find Mary's vocals perfectly suited for
    HMM and I enjoy the counterpoint vocals with Scherrie. I always found it interesting that many in this group considered it over when Jean left. Many say that since there wasn't this high, fluty, nasal voice on leads like Diana and Jean that the group was over It is nice to see a compliment on Scherrie's vocal ability. Mary's vocals were also quite good and she stated on the 75 LP she lost her voice because she was given leads meant for Scherrie at Pedro's insistence and it was psychosomatic. I think HMM and Early Morning Love were initially set for Scherrie but I actually think I prefer Mary's voice on those songs. Plus, they released HMM and the second single was Where Do I Go From Here with Scherrie only on lead and it didn't do as well. If Motown was excited for IABSB, why wasn't it chosen as the second single instead? I honestly don't think Mary had that much power but I also think Motown didn't care about the group, Berry was infatuated with Diana and directing Mahogany, so perhaps the ones left just went along with Mary and Pedro even if it meant less money. So, does anyone know why IABSB wasn't chosen as the second single? I never liked WDIGFH all that much. Why did they not include Bend A Little, which was quite catchy and danceable? HE proved that there was certainly a sound from this group that fit the times[[Old gowns and stage show not included) that really could have gone somewhere. Mary excelled in ballads and she did excellent on the last 2 LPs. Scherrie's vocals were always strong and stood out. Susaye's high voice was distinctive and her ad libs added a lot of flavor to the grouping. I totally understand Mary singing more leads, there did need to be some consistency. I think Scherrie would have stayed with the group unlike Diana and Jean. I think Motown missed that Mary could have been their balladeer for the company. I think Berry just never liked her voice and I could never understand that given that he had a similar sound with Mary Wells plus Berry wanted Freda on Motown so Scherrie had a similar voice, he couldn't think of what to do with her? Jean was an amazing vocalist, but in hindsight Berry may have been right to want to replace her. Still, Scherrie and Mary did wonderful on the last 3 albums. I really think it had the talent to continue and flourish.
    Wow I agree with everything you said here. I might add that Mary did have some decent chart action on lead [[co lead)with Floy Joy and Automatic Sunshine

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    Quote Originally Posted by rod_rick View Post
    Wow I agree with everything you said here. I might add that Mary did have some decent chart action on lead [[co lead)with Floy Joy and Automatic Sunshine
    AS is a wonderful performance by mary. FJ is a good one too but AS is just perfect. the way she purrs "ooh baby" at the very start of the song, how she sort of cracks her voice slightly on "i'm behind you" at about 1:29 and again on "i'll go follow" at 1:37

    Jean is even better on AS than she is on FJ. she too offers up some sexy cool vocals. i just wish cindy had a little more of a role than 1 standalone "hey" at 1:37.

    i know i'm often critical of Mary on her but that's only because we're all digging into the most minutia points about the Sups career and the details.

    there are a lot of tunes mary has excelled on and not all of they ballads. I think If You Let Me, while maybe not a lost hit in terms of a single, is a lot album track. RO was a glorious album but i do find the songs tend to blur together somewhat - Wait A minute, then we can try it again, i got hurt. there's a lot of similarities between them. they're all great songs but perhaps the lp could have been even better with a little more variety. If You Let Me could have easily fit in the lineup, given another voice a spotlight and held it's own.

    Also songs like Can We Love Again [[even though i think the chorus is too repetitive and needed a little fine tuning) and You're What's Missing also show mary's ability to sing non-ballads. i think having mary do some more upbeat songs and then also having Scherrie do a ballad would have added a lot of interest to albums like Sups 75 or HE.

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    Mary did always excel on ballads but her vocals were fine on a number of upbeat tunes as well. Scherrie does one of my favorite vocals on a FLOs tune called Keep On Loving Me. Had she done something similar on a Supremes track, that would have shown even more how great all the lead vocalists were. I always felt that Mary's vocals on ballads were like a warm, sensual caress. I remember decades ago on the old AOL boards saying that I preferred her vocals on ballads over Diana's because I felt sometimes they hit a sweet, syrupy sort of sound and some members just went crazy even though I never said I disliked Diana's vocals just that I personally preferred Mary's. They were all terrific vocalists and had the ability to do a variety of songs, its just that we all personally prefer one of them doing a certain genre. I always liked Susaye's take on soulful songs like Come Into My Life and her work on the dance song High Energy but in Partners she also was quite good on her ballad[[When The Day Comes Every Night). I think adding a Mary solo on Right On would have been a good idea even though Motown was trying to get the public used to Jean after Diana all those years. The thing is, albums should have had more variety on leads for all those years, not just on the last 3 albums.
    Last edited by jim aka jtigre99; 07-06-2022 at 11:50 AM.

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    Honestly, I think Scherrie was just wrong for the part. Love her and her voice, so my personal love and respect for her talent isn't the issue. When you have a force like the Supremes, it's important to stay on brand at all times. Evolving with the times, tweaks here and there, are necessary, but the blueprint was laid down by Florence, Diana and Mary. The initial success the 70s Supremes had was because they continued to follow the blueprint. By the time of Scherrie, there was little about the group that connected it to the original trio.

    Scherrie's voice was dynamic. She could sing sweetly, for sure, [["Seed of Love" is a great example of Scherrie not tearing through a song), but it's clear that Scherrie's natural inclination was to blow the roof off the mutha. And there's nothing wrong with that, except it sounds nothing like what was on brand for the group. Smokey Robinson is obviously very talented and a proven commercial success, but can you imagine fans' reactions if he, or a singer like him, had taken over for Levi of the Four Tops? The public would've felt like the new Tops weren't the Tops at all. That's really what I believe a lot of the general public felt about the Scherrie Supremes, that even with Mary present, they just weren't the Supremes, no matter how good they were.

    Worst thing to happen to the 70s Supremes was Jean leaving. The continuity of her as lead, or co-lead, would have kept them recognizable, and I would hope that eventually the group could have lucked up on material that could've taken back to the top. Jean was as much a pop singer as she was an r&b singer, which was on brand for the Supremes. I think better material may have availed itself if Jean had remained, more easily commercial material. The stuff the Supremes did with Scherrie were often good to great, but it's hard to put money down on most of it being surefire successes, no matter how good we think the song is now.

    Just my two cents.

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    that's a very fair assessment Ran. But you could also argue that the MJC and especially the MJL lineups diverged from the original trio significantly too. as much as we diehard fans talk about how the group was a shared concept at the very beginning, no one but us really realizes this. to the public it was DMF but Diana was the lead and M and F were backups. although it still appeared as a group. then we got the DRATS era which was really the DR show with two singers doing vocal backup. the "group" was essentially gone

    the group evolved in the 70s. jean was definitely the lead singer. but they issued 3 singles with co-lead vocals. the closest we EVER got to that with the Diana era was the chorus on Breathtaking. Mary had been doing her lead of Can't Take Eyes during the DRATS era. but those were treated more as sidebars in the show. the dialogs and monologues, were all Diana's. the interaction with hosts on tv shows - diana. So by the 70s mary's role was much much larger and so frankly that was a major shift in the overall dynamic of the group and the structure of the organization.

    IMO the Scherrie years struggled because it really became the Mary Wilson show. she handled nearly all of the dialogs with the tv hosts, she handled all of the dialog in the stage act, the majority of the leads were hers in the act. and the overall live presentation of the group was quite poor. they just appeared sloppy. i did like the expansion of the group's image and all with the jean years. I think they should have approached the Scherrie years like that - with Scherrie taking on more of the presence on stage and tv.

    also as for her high powered vocals, you're right - they often used her, especially on the heavy disco numbers, at full power. but i think the Ivey Woodford material on Sup 75 showed much more range from her. yes on Side 1 of the lp you have her tarzan vocals on HMM and her blasting the roof on This Is Why. She still laid down a strong vocal on Give out, Can't stop a girl, sha la, etc but not nearly as over the top. That's also why i think she and mary shouldn't have been solely relegated to specific song types. there's no reason Mary had to do EVERY ballad. Scherrie would have been stunning on some. just as Mary should do some more up tempo work - like You're What's missing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Honestly, I think Scherrie was just wrong for the part. Love her and her voice, so my personal love and respect for her talent isn't the issue. When you have a force like the Supremes, it's important to stay on brand at all times. Evolving with the times, tweaks here and there, are necessary, but the blueprint was laid down by Florence, Diana and Mary. The initial success the 70s Supremes had was because they continued to follow the blueprint. By the time of Scherrie, there was little about the group that connected it to the original trio.

    Scherrie's voice was dynamic. She could sing sweetly, for sure, [["Seed of Love" is a great example of Scherrie not tearing through a song), but it's clear that Scherrie's natural inclination was to blow the roof off the mutha. And there's nothing wrong with that, except it sounds nothing like what was on brand for the group. Smokey Robinson is obviously very talented and a proven commercial success, but can you imagine fans' reactions if he, or a singer like him, had taken over for Levi of the Four Tops? The public would've felt like the new Tops weren't the Tops at all. That's really what I believe a lot of the general public felt about the Scherrie Supremes, that even with Mary present, they just weren't the Supremes, no matter how good they were.

    Worst thing to happen to the 70s Supremes was Jean leaving. The continuity of her as lead, or co-lead, would have kept them recognizable, and I would hope that eventually the group could have lucked up on material that could've taken back to the top. Jean was as much a pop singer as she was an r&b singer, which was on brand for the Supremes. I think better material may have availed itself if Jean had remained, more easily commercial material. The stuff the Supremes did with Scherrie were often good to great, but it's hard to put money down on most of it being surefire successes, no matter how good we think the song is now.

    Just my two cents.
    I've often wondered what Jean thought about joining as "lead" of the Supremes. When you look at the singles released while she was in the group, she basically had just as many solo leads as she did shared leads:

    Solo:
    Ladder
    EGTRTL
    Stoned Love
    Nathan [[questionable?)
    Sweet, Sweet Love
    Miss the Man
    BW

    Shared lead:
    River Deep
    Reach/Touch
    Gotta Have Love
    Touch
    Floy Joy
    Auto Sunshine
    W/O the One You Love [[UK)

    Did she go into the group thinking she'd be the LEAD lead singer? Did she want to share the mic with Mary? Do you think she might have felt like Gladys, when leads were transitioned to Wanda?

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    Nathan Jones is clearly in the shared side. I’m not really sure what Berry told her before she joined. I hope she at seen their show to see that Mary had a few solo numbers so she would have known that she wasn’t doing all of the leads. Also the situation with the marvelettes was different. Wanda was the co lead since the beginning so I wouldn’t think their dynamic wasn’t the same as JMC
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I've often wondered what Jean thought about joining as "lead" of the Supremes. When you look at the singles released while she was in the group, she basically had just as many solo leads as she did shared leads:

    Solo:
    Ladder
    EGTRTL
    Stoned Love
    Nathan [[questionable?)
    Sweet, Sweet Love
    Miss the Man
    BW

    Shared lead:
    River Deep
    Reach/Touch
    Gotta Have Love
    Touch
    Floy Joy
    Auto Sunshine
    W/O the One You Love [[UK)

    Did she go into the group thinking she'd be the LEAD lead singer? Did she want to share the mic with Mary? Do you think she might have felt like Gladys, when leads were transitioned to Wanda?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    that's a very fair assessment Ran. But you could also argue that the MJC and especially the MJL lineups diverged from the original trio significantly too. as much as we diehard fans talk about how the group was a shared concept at the very beginning, no one but us really realizes this. to the public it was DMF but Diana was the lead and M and F were backups. although it still appeared as a group. then we got the DRATS era which was really the DR show with two singers doing vocal backup. the "group" was essentially gone

    the group evolved in the 70s. jean was definitely the lead singer. but they issued 3 singles with co-lead vocals. the closest we EVER got to that with the Diana era was the chorus on Breathtaking. Mary had been doing her lead of Can't Take Eyes during the DRATS era. but those were treated more as sidebars in the show. the dialogs and monologues, were all Diana's. the interaction with hosts on tv shows - diana. So by the 70s mary's role was much much larger and so frankly that was a major shift in the overall dynamic of the group and the structure of the organization.

    IMO the Scherrie years struggled because it really became the Mary Wilson show. she handled nearly all of the dialogs with the tv hosts, she handled all of the dialog in the stage act, the majority of the leads were hers in the act. and the overall live presentation of the group was quite poor. they just appeared sloppy. i did like the expansion of the group's image and all with the jean years. I think they should have approached the Scherrie years like that - with Scherrie taking on more of the presence on stage and tv.

    also as for her high powered vocals, you're right - they often used her, especially on the heavy disco numbers, at full power. but i think the Ivey Woodford material on Sup 75 showed much more range from her. yes on Side 1 of the lp you have her tarzan vocals on HMM and her blasting the roof on This Is Why. She still laid down a strong vocal on Give out, Can't stop a girl, sha la, etc but not nearly as over the top. That's also why i think she and mary shouldn't have been solely relegated to specific song types. there's no reason Mary had to do EVERY ballad. Scherrie would have been stunning on some. just as Mary should do some more up tempo work - like You're What's missing.
    Now see, I think the Lynda lineup was still on brand, they just had poor single choices, and the worst ever album choice. Jean kept that Supremes feeling. Mary and Lynda had beautiful harmonies. And, except for using DRATS gowns, I think MJL sometimes updated their look to fit the times, and yet still remain...Supreme.

    As far as Jean's co-leads, that was an obvious deviation, but I suspect it was successful at times because they were just good songs. I said what I said about Scherrie, but "Walking" was the biggest hit the group had in years. It had success. So it's not that I believe that no matter what the Scherrie group couldn't have found something, but I think it was an uphill climb with Scherrie, a climb that I don't think would have been as difficult with Jean, or another singer who kept that Diana/Jean feeling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I've often wondered what Jean thought about joining as "lead" of the Supremes. When you look at the singles released while she was in the group, she basically had just as many solo leads as she did shared leads:

    Solo:
    Ladder
    EGTRTL
    Stoned Love
    Nathan [[questionable?)
    Sweet, Sweet Love
    Miss the Man
    BW

    Shared lead:
    River Deep
    Reach/Touch
    Gotta Have Love
    Touch
    Floy Joy
    Auto Sunshine
    W/O the One You Love [[UK)

    Did she go into the group thinking she'd be the LEAD lead singer? Did she want to share the mic with Mary? Do you think she might have felt like Gladys, when leads were transitioned to Wanda?
    I think she was brought in to replace Diana and had to have known what that meant. She wasn't to necessarily be just a third girl, she would be handling the bulk of the leads. I'd like to think Jean wasn't so selfish or egotistical to have a problem sharing any amount of singing time with Mary.

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    I would guess that Jean was pretty quickly dismayed with the set up. At the time the group was structured as 1 primary lead singer and she assumed that role. so she was constantly recording - she is on every track the group recorded. but M and C were most certainly NOT on every recording. she was also pushing for a "lead" performance as opposed to oohs and ahhhs. and for a while she also joined M and C in the backgrounds. she was doing nearly all of the leads in the shows and when the act would update and change, it was her content that was updating for her to learn a new lead song. mary meanwhile kept singing Can't Take again and again and again and again and again and again...

    the payment structure was also that jean was salaried for the first 18 months while M and C were getting royalties.

    then as jean was pushing for a new direction, she's being told no. so she must have felt "if i'm good enough to be the lead singer, how can i not be good enough to help determine the strategy for the group????"

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    It seems weird to me that Jean would have been salaried and not receiving royalties for songs she sang on. Was this something new that Motown started doing with singers they signed to the label within groups? Cindy was a replacement and she was receiving royalties. Was this a Jean only decision, and if so, why? I really want to hear Jean's side of the story. I'm tired of getting secondhand information when she's around to tell what was going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    It seems weird to me that Jean would have been salaried and not receiving royalties for songs she sang on. Was this something new that Motown started doing with singers they signed to the label within groups? Cindy was a replacement and she was receiving royalties. Was this a Jean only decision, and if so, why? I really want to hear Jean's side of the story. I'm tired of getting secondhand information when she's around to tell what was going on.
    i believe it was more standard. not sure if Cindy was on that plan too. but i believe others have discussed how this was also applied to the Temptations. not sure about the various Vandellas, but they might not have been selling enough records to matter too much anyway

    Mary writes in her book that Lynda was trying to up her position in the group. assuming she too had a "probationary period" upon joining, this 18 month period would have been wrapping up about the time of Aug/Sept 73. so perhaps she was trying to work out what her permanent contract and pay structure was in the group. mary also mentioned something along the line of Lynda trying to get more pay for when she led a song.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    I would guess that Jean was pretty quickly dismayed with the set up. At the time the group was structured as 1 primary lead singer and she assumed that role. so she was constantly recording - she is on every track the group recorded. but M and C were most certainly NOT on every recording. she was also pushing for a "lead" performance as opposed to oohs and ahhhs. and for a while she also joined M and C in the backgrounds. she was doing nearly all of the leads in the shows and when the act would update and change, it was her content that was updating for her to learn a new lead song. mary meanwhile kept singing Can't Take again and again and again and again and again and again...
    Sounds like Diana in 1968/1969. Mary is in a bikini in Mexico and Diana is cramped in a control booth sweating off her afro wig crooning "Love Child".

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i believe it was more standard. not sure if Cindy was on that plan too. but i believe others have discussed how this was also applied to the Temptations. not sure about the various Vandellas, but they might not have been selling enough records to matter too much anyway

    Mary writes in her book that Lynda was trying to up her position in the group. assuming she too had a "probationary period" upon joining, this 18 month period would have been wrapping up about the time of Aug/Sept 73. so perhaps she was trying to work out what her permanent contract and pay structure was in the group. mary also mentioned something along the line of Lynda trying to get more pay for when she led a song.
    To Lynda's credit, she did belt out an entire show in Hawaii with limited rehearsals. And from what I've heard, she sounds fantastic. Meanwhile Mary is singing "oooh" and "ahhh" and "baby baby" and "Can't Take My Eyes" for the 17,000th time. Lol. I can see why Lynda would want a bigger piece of the pie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Sounds like Diana in 1968/1969. Mary is in a bikini in Mexico and Diana is cramped in a control booth sweating off her afro wig crooning "Love Child".
    Oooooo Miss Mary - be careful. you don't want Marv to come back and haunt you lololol

    the various biographies do seem to state that Diana was a bit perturbed that the royalty structure wasn't adjusted to reflect the volume of work she was doing. if we were to do a checklist of the songs Diana was singing on and the songs M and C were singing on, it would be a huge difference. but i think [[other than a couple of times perhaps like the LC story) it wasn't that M and C were being lazy. it's just that they weren't asked. they were not scheduled for the studios and weren't flown in.

    I could imagine though that in the 70s M probably could have pushed a bit more to hold back on so much non-Sup singing in the backgrounds. probably not at first but as time went on and motown didn't really care as much, i would have thought she could have exerted a bit of say in this matter.

    as for the stage act, the story is the Gil definitely tried to get other songs in the act for her. and i think i've read a time or two were either I Keep it Hid or A Heart Like Mine did come in very briefly. but she loved Can't Take and so would just want to keep singing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    To Lynda's credit, she did belt out an entire show in Hawaii with limited rehearsals. And from what I've heard, she sounds fantastic. Meanwhile Mary is singing "oooh" and "ahhh" and "baby baby" and "Can't Take My Eyes" for the 17,000th time. Lol. I can see why Lynda would want a bigger piece of the pie.
    yeah all we know about this whole story is from Mary's book and she definitely wasn't sisterly close with Lynda. so who knows the exact details. also i don't know if, after completing probation, the new singer went to the same royalty rate as mary or not. have no idea on that one. But your point is certainly valid - if she was capable enough to assume lead duties on her stage debut with the group, then she should have been utilized and all better

    i don't think Mary necessarily wanted her to go when J left. the two departures weren't exactly tied together. bayou has shared fascinating details from this time and jean wanted out back in the late spring/early summer when BW failed and they got that disastrous review in April 73 in SFO. he said she wanted out then but agreed to stay through the summer concert dates. her last show was in the first half of August and then the first Scherrie dates aren't until halloween. i don't know if that was planned - no shows for a couple months and so that was a good time for jean to leave? or if they were able to cancel some dates or what.

    at the time, i think Cindy had said she would be willing to step in as a 3rd member and that Lynda might assume lead duties, shared with mary. i believe Bayou also mentioned that as some point there was a meeting at mary's house to discuss the group's future and pedro was there and heavily involved. not necessarily as THE manager of the group but mary was clearly turning decisions over to him and Lynda was not impressed. given how poor the group had been supported and promoted, lynda i guess thought that there was just no point in staying

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Oooooo Miss Mary - be careful. you don't want Marv to come back and haunt you lololol

    the various biographies do seem to state that Diana was a bit perturbed that the royalty structure wasn't adjusted to reflect the volume of work she was doing. if we were to do a checklist of the songs Diana was singing on and the songs M and C were singing on, it would be a huge difference. but i think [[other than a couple of times perhaps like the LC story) it wasn't that M and C were being lazy. it's just that they weren't asked. they were not scheduled for the studios and weren't flown in.

    I could imagine though that in the 70s M probably could have pushed a bit more to hold back on so much non-Sup singing in the backgrounds. probably not at first but as time went on and motown didn't really care as much, i would have thought she could have exerted a bit of say in this matter.

    as for the stage act, the story is the Gil definitely tried to get other songs in the act for her. and i think i've read a time or two were either I Keep it Hid or A Heart Like Mine did come in very briefly. but she loved Can't Take and so would just want to keep singing it.
    Lol, most of my comments are tongue in cheek and meant in jest. That said, I agree with you. I don't think Mary or Cindy were lazy; it probably was much more efficient to bring in the Andantes than have to coordinate the Supremes. It wasn't like the old days when three girls were cramped in a booth. Get Diana to lay down the vocals, then augment later [[or prior) the backgrounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yeah all we know about this whole story is from Mary's book and she definitely wasn't sisterly close with Lynda. so who knows the exact details. also i don't know if, after completing probation, the new singer went to the same royalty rate as mary or not. have no idea on that one. But your point is certainly valid - if she was capable enough to assume lead duties on her stage debut with the group, then she should have been utilized and all better

    i don't think Mary necessarily wanted her to go when J left. the two departures weren't exactly tied together. bayou has shared fascinating details from this time and jean wanted out back in the late spring/early summer when BW failed and they got that disastrous review in April 73 in SFO. he said she wanted out then but agreed to stay through the summer concert dates. her last show was in the first half of August and then the first Scherrie dates aren't until halloween. i don't know if that was planned - no shows for a couple months and so that was a good time for jean to leave? or if they were able to cancel some dates or what.

    at the time, i think Cindy had said she would be willing to step in as a 3rd member and that Lynda might assume lead duties, shared with mary. i believe Bayou also mentioned that as some point there was a meeting at mary's house to discuss the group's future and pedro was there and heavily involved. not necessarily as THE manager of the group but mary was clearly turning decisions over to him and Lynda was not impressed. given how poor the group had been supported and promoted, lynda i guess thought that there was just no point in staying
    MJC might have made an interesting grouping, at least visually. There's no denying that Lynda is stunning; she looks fantastic in the clip of "YWSSL"; the fast version in the white mini dresses. I just wonder if Mary was intimidated by her talent; Lynda could definitely holler, and her riffs and runs and adlibs are spectacular. Or it could be that Mary didn't think Lynda should have a "voice" in the group, being so new. Cindy never seemed very vocal; it must have been a shock to have a member with an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    MJC might have made an interesting grouping, at least visually. There's no denying that Lynda is stunning; she looks fantastic in the clip of "YWSSL"; the fast version in the white mini dresses. I just wonder if Mary was intimidated by her talent; Lynda could definitely holler, and her riffs and runs and adlibs are spectacular. Or it could be that Mary didn't think Lynda should have a "voice" in the group, being so new. Cindy never seemed very vocal; it must have been a shock to have a member with an opinion.
    At one point in her book, Mary compared her situation to Otis and Melvin of the Tempts, i.e. that they would always be outnumbered by new members.

    Considering Mary went with Linda over her sister Sundray, she probably was happy with Linda's abilities on stage. But with Jean and Lynda seeming to have bonded both professionally [in the desire to possibly leave Motown] as well as personally [their beliefs], Mary might very well have felt that her position was threatened.

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    this sort of brings up the whole question of "who was managing and leading the Supremes in the 70s?" and i don't mean leading as in lead singing. who was saying "no only jean sings lead and mary does her 1 solo per show and album" if MJL were working with the management team and saying "we'd like to go in this direction..." was that being listened to? was their input ever gathered? was it only mary since she was the "original?"

    I think that was a major source of frustration for both J and L since they were not 16 little girls signing to a label. they were adults, they had had at least some degree of experience. i know motown still was controlling things but was that control still as absolute as it had been back in the 60s?

    mary says that Wayne guy was their manager in 72 and he's in that pic with MJL. Wayne Weisbart or something like that? she attributed him for helping arrange the JW project/disaster lol Was Wayne calling all the shots? was M involved? J? L? was he a puppet from motown or someone that was legitimately trying to push the group in a new direction? was he partly responsible for them digging out the old DRATS music for the live shows later in 72?

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    Wasn't Wayne someone that Mary brought in; someone non-Motown? For as little as the label seemingly wanted to do with the group, they still had their thumb over all of their doings.

    What I wonder is, as each group member left, did Mary ring up Motown first and let them know? Or did she just go out and say ta-da, here is our new member. I think by JW, Motown was hoping the group would just go out to pasture. Then "High Energy" hit with MSC, and their ears perked up a bit.

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