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  1. #1

    How Many Supremes?

    This may seem like a silly question but how many ladies were actually in the group named The Supremes/DRATS? I am having a difference of opinion with someone. Thanks.

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    Barbara Martin-1961,Florence Ballard 1961-1967,Diana Ross 1961-1970,Mary Wilson 1961-1977,Cindy Birdsong 1967-1972;1973-1976,Jean Terrell 1970-1973,Lynda Laurence 1972-1973,Scherrie Payne 1973-1977,Susaye Greene 1976-1977. Just like the Supreme Court, the Supremes had 9 members total.

  3. #3
    Thanks Jim, that's my answer too. Betty was never a Supreme despite of what Wikipedia says! Only 9 recorded as the Supremes �� Every time I change it some rabid fan changes it back. I've given up!

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    Yes, Betty was a member of the Primettes. She left the group to get married before they went to Motown and were on Lupine Records. Barbara Martin replaced her. Betty was never a member of the Supremes with Motown. Some people forget Barbara because she did not officially sign off because her Mother did not like the terms of the contract with Motown. Motown did record Mary, Florence, Diana and Barbara and all can be heard on the Meet the Supremes LP. Some people just want to be right all of the time and argue and change things. Life's too short. Put on your copy of Thank You and the Mary Wilson Anthology and just enjoy the music. Hopefully, the music will drown out other people's misguided fanaticism.

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    I see on the Main Page that Betty is listed as a group member on Wikipedia but under the title Supremes timeline, which is a separate page, it clearly lists Betty as a Primette only replaced by Barbara in the Primettes who leaves the group herself in 1962 leaving the group to be a trio.

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    Barbara's mother initially balked but she did sign the contract for her daughter to be a Supreme and Motown recording artist along with the other ladies' mothers. It appears her last known recordings as a Supreme were in December 1961, but she did not officially leave the group until the spring of 1962. The group's recording schedule in 1962 is probably their most sparse. My gut tells me there are some recordings from 1962 that haven't been discovered/are lost/damaged/unsuitable for release. Perhaps a few of these might have Barbara on them. Strangely, the Supremes, like other Motown acts, moonlighted at other labels as backing vocalists, and there are some recordings with the Supremes on background during this time that have Barbara with the ladies on other labels. Just seems strange she'd sing with them somewhere else and not at Motown. Or maybe they were gigging at other labels because of the sparse recording schedule at Motown? Very interesting period in the group's history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Barbara's mother initially balked but she did sign the contract for her daughter to be a Supreme and Motown recording artist along with the other ladies' mothers. It appears her last known recordings as a Supreme were in December 1961, but she did not officially leave the group until the spring of 1962. The group's recording schedule in 1962 is probably their most sparse. My gut tells me there are some recordings from 1962 that haven't been discovered/are lost/damaged/unsuitable for release. Perhaps a few of these might have Barbara on them. Strangely, the Supremes, like other Motown acts, moonlighted at other labels as backing vocalists, and there are some recordings with the Supremes on background during this time that have Barbara with the ladies on other labels. Just seems strange she'd sing with them somewhere else and not at Motown. Or maybe they were gigging at other labels because of the sparse recording schedule at Motown? Very interesting period in the group's history.
    when was Flo's rape? was that after Barbara left the group?

    there was also a time where Flo and Barbara were out temporarily due to their grades suffering and their parents making them quit for a bit. D and M were doing some duet gigs and backing vocals.

    it might also be helpful to layer in the sessions where they were backing vocalists. like for Marvin or Mary Wells. i have all of the data from the EE and books on the Supremes sessions but they could have filled some of that time with other studio work

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    when was Flo's rape? was that after Barbara left the group?
    According to Mary, it was after Betty left but before Barbara joined.

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    For part of 62 Flo was subbing for Wanda in The Marvelettes as Wanda took time off to have a baby.

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    The 70's EE listed all "official" in the back of one of its compilations. This included Barbara.

    Some have said over the years that Lynda wasn't an "official" Supreme; just a sub for Cindy.

    Diana has also said that Cindy wasn't an "official" Supreme; just a sub for Flo.

    What I'm interested in is, who were "official" Vandellas, after Betty? Were Lois and Sandy contracted through Motown, or Martha?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21 View Post
    For part of 62 Flo was subbing for Wanda in The Marvelettes as Wanda took time off to have a baby.
    oh that's right - good memory. anyone know how long she was off with them? i don't think she did any recording. just live dates

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    The 70's EE listed all "official" in the back of one of its compilations. This included Barbara.

    Some have said over the years that Lynda wasn't an "official" Supreme; just a sub for Cindy.

    Diana has also said that Cindy wasn't an "official" Supreme; just a sub for Flo.

    What I'm interested in is, who were "official" Vandellas, after Betty? Were Lois and Sandy contracted through Motown, or Martha?
    seems like all of these "other" statements are just things in the press or a sloppy answer in an interview, stumbling over words.

    Official means the person was under contract to Motown for that role. I'm fairly certain all of the Vandellas [[including Lois and Sandra) were under contract

    one that might be an interesting one is Richard Street and the Temps PRIOR to Paul retiring. Richard was singing for paul offstage.

  13. #13
    Only the nine ladies mentioned were signed by Motown and recorded for the company. Betty was not signed to Motown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    oh that's right - good memory. anyone know how long she was off with them? i don't think she did any recording. just live dates
    According to Marc Taylor's book on them, it was one short tour during the run of TWISTIN' POSTMAN. So I'm assuming late '61-early '62.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    when was Flo's rape? was that after Barbara left the group?

    there was also a time where Flo and Barbara were out temporarily due to their grades suffering and their parents making them quit for a bit. D and M were doing some duet gigs and backing vocals.

    it might also be helpful to layer in the sessions where they were backing vocalists. like for Marvin or Mary Wells. i have all of the data from the EE and books on the Supremes sessions but they could have filled some of that time with other studio work
    Flo's rape was during the Primettes era, after the Supremes auditioned for Motown and prior to Barbara joining the group.

    I don't know that Barbara was ever out of the group for any reason. Never heard that before. And I'm not convinced that Florence was ever out of the group temporarily due to grades. I think Diana [[I don't recall Mary ever confirming the story) used that story to explain the period of time Flo was out of the group due to the rape. However, Diana's father pulled her out of the group temporarily at one point, with Flo and Mary apparently approaching him separately and then together to beg him to let her come back.

    I think Diana and Mary contemplated being a duo during Flo's recovery and started rehearsing as such, but nothing came of it. Another interesting aspect of their story, a Diana and Mary combo. They have a real nice blend together on "Small Sad Sam", and then later they were very good on "What Becomes of the Brokenhearted". Doubtful the duo would have ever attained the heights of the Supremes, but it's interesting to ponder what that might have looked and sounded like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Flo's rape was during the Primettes era, after the Supremes auditioned for Motown and prior to Barbara joining the group.

    I don't know that Barbara was ever out of the group for any reason. Never heard that before. And I'm not convinced that Florence was ever out of the group temporarily due to grades. I think Diana [[I don't recall Mary ever confirming the story) used that story to explain the period of time Flo was out of the group due to the rape. However, Diana's father pulled her out of the group temporarily at one point, with Flo and Mary apparently approaching him separately and then together to beg him to let her come back.

    I think Diana and Mary contemplated being a duo during Flo's recovery and started rehearsing as such, but nothing came of it. Another interesting aspect of their story, a Diana and Mary combo. They have a real nice blend together on "Small Sad Sam", and then later they were very good on "What Becomes of the Brokenhearted". Doubtful the duo would have ever attained the heights of the Supremes, but it's interesting to ponder what that might have looked and sounded like.
    yeah i'm working off of hazy memories. It could have been during the Primettes era and maybe it was Betty and Flo.

    Just pulled up my spreadsheet. DMF did Play A Sad Song in mid Jan 62, about a month after The Tears and Your Heart Belongs. apparently these two tunes were both by Smokey but man, talk about a different sound. The Tears' vocals are very "early Supremes" sounding. actually could almost be describe sort of like the Marvelettes. But the polish and smoothness of Your Heart is really "supremes like" and supposedly they were recorded on the same day!!

    in 1961 most of the girls work falls in during Jan, April and then the summer. that sort of makes sense because the girls were students so while they would be hanging out after school at Hitsville, they wouldn't have been there during the day nor extra late at night.

    then you have a couple recordings in Dec [[maybe winter break)

    in early 62, Barbara was leaving the group and so that would have added some uncertainty with what was going on. there are just a few random recordings here and there - 1 in Jan, 1 in May, 1 in July, another in Aug, then Dec.

    Again the girls were in school through the spring so that sort of makes sense. the only major tours or dates we know about in the Motown Revue in November and the Apollo in Dec.

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    Gladys seems to imply in her new book that Flo was with them for 6 months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Flo's rape was during the Primettes era, after the Supremes auditioned for Motown and prior to Barbara joining the group.

    I don't know that Barbara was ever out of the group for any reason. Never heard that before. And I'm not convinced that Florence was ever out of the group temporarily due to grades. I think Diana [[I don't recall Mary ever confirming the story) used that story to explain the period of time Flo was out of the group due to the rape. However, Diana's father pulled her out of the group temporarily at one point, with Flo and Mary apparently approaching him separately and then together to beg him to let her come back.

    I think Diana and Mary contemplated being a duo during Flo's recovery and started rehearsing as such, but nothing came of it. Another interesting aspect of their story, a Diana and Mary combo. They have a real nice blend together on "Small Sad Sam", and then later they were very good on "What Becomes of the Brokenhearted". Doubtful the duo would have ever attained the heights of the Supremes, but it's interesting to ponder what that might have looked and sounded like.
    One might also add, during this time, their may not have been a lot to do. So even if they were a group, or duo, it wasn't like they were doing record hops and appearances every weekend, or every month. I imagine they got a gig here and there, but it's not like they were in demand.

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    How, how, how did y'all miss the fabulous Miss Shantel Baker??? Really? This is SDF and you didn't include her??? I'm in shock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    The 70's EE listed all "official" in the back of one of its compilations. This included Barbara.

    Some have said over the years that Lynda wasn't an "official" Supreme; just a sub for Cindy.

    Diana has also said that Cindy wasn't an "official" Supreme; just a sub for Flo.

    What I'm interested in is, who were "official" Vandellas, after Betty? Were Lois and Sandy contracted through Motown, or Martha?
    I think all of the 9 Ladies were official Supremes, signed to Motown. I think some fans look at Lynda as a sub for Cindy since her tenure with the group was really only 18 months. I think Diana, even if she may have wanted Flo to leave the group because her problems were having her miss performances, is a bit like Mary was in looking at the group as Diana, Mary and Flo and both Diana and Mary's sentiments are with the original trio. On the other hand, when RTL came about and Mary and Cindy were not "accepted" and Lynda and Scherrie were chosen Diana said that they were carrying on the legacy of the group for all of those years. In a way, not true and true. I don't think they would have reformed as the FLOs had Mary's Dreamgirl had not sparked interest in the Supremes. Plus, the original FLOs included Jean and Lynda who wanted to leave the Supremes and Motown and change the name to something else [[like the Butterflies) but then later on are the very ones using the name from 1986-on. Plus, I understand that Lynda very much ran the business so I can see some fans looking at her as a sub for Cindy because of her short tenure and her actual significance to the group.
    As for Martha, I heard that she has stated that the Vandellas were not a group group like the Supremes but she had them travel with her on the road as a need for company. I am not sure how true that is.
    I am still waiting for Shantel Baker to write her book. She could probably set us all straight on who was what in each group as she is the Ultimate authority.

  21. #21
    I have no idea who this Shantel Baker is! There were only 9 ladies who were signed to Motown who recorded as the Supremes, no one else.

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    Good one jim, lol.

    Don't forget, there was some interest in the 70's and early 80's of reforming the Supremes. Some say Jean, Lynda, and Flo. Some say with Mary, Scherrie, and Cindy. We all know that Jean, Mary, Cindy, Lynda and Scherrie worked together on several projects throughout the years; John Kidd's "Up the Ladder", Scherrie's "I'm Not in Love", and others. They always seemed supportive of one another until the FLOs were formed, without Mary.

    I think the Lynda being a "sub" thing was started by Mary fans that wanted to get a dig in.

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    Cindy Birdsong said in Goldmine magazine in 2009 that she planned to return to the Supremes after she had her baby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by copley View Post
    I have no idea who this Shantel Baker is! There were only 9 ladies who were signed to Motown who recorded as the Supremes, no one else.
    Yes, like I stated with my first post there are only 9 and I listed their tenure in the Supremes. Shantel Baker is someone who was touring as a "Supreme" and was always saying that she was in the group replacing Diana Ross, which certainly is not true. It is a running joke on SDF. https://soulfuldetroit.com/archive/i...hp/t-4067.html
    MB, as far as Lynda I always considered her a very beautiful and talented Supreme but I do think she makes herself more important to the group than she really was and during her time there the group charted its lowest. I don't think any of them were temporary substitutes. Lynda and Susaye had the shortest tenure in the group but both contributed to the group. Lynda asked Stevie Wonder to write for the group and Susaye's ad libs were very instrumental in making their last top 40 hit distinctive and she did do lead vocals on a number of songs. I think some fans that were pro-Mary looked at the FLOs as taking away from Mary's bookings but I think there was room for all of them[[except Shantel Baker and other non-Supremes like Kaaaaaren Ragland). They all seemed to be supportive of one another, I just watched Mary and Lynda at a rare Jean Terrell concert in 1984. Even Diana Ross went to see Mary and Cindy's debuts as well as seeing the FLOs in concert. I think in the early 80's Motown was going to regroup the Supremes with Mary, Scherrie and Cindy ala the successful Temps reunion. Mary had 2 conditions, that she sing leads and that Berry be behind the reunion. Motown wanted Scherrie to do all the leads and Berry wasn't really interested as it was an idea that Suzanne wanted to do.
    Last edited by jim aka jtigre99; 06-23-2022 at 11:43 AM.

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    Without a doubt, Lynda brought a sexiness and youthful energy to the group; Lynda was 5 years younger than Jean and Mary, and 10 years younger than Cindy.

    Lynda can definitely sing and added some great vocal runs to the groups live performances. I used to be very critical of Lynda, but have come to appreciate her contributions to the group.

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    It would have been interesting to see what a reformed Supremes might have done or sounded like. If this would have been 1982, it would have been right when the Pointer Sisters were about to hit big. Of course, we know a few years later, Cindy would be asked to form the FLOs but declined for a solo "career". She should have stuck with the Supremes/FLOs.

    Lastly, and I'm sure Mary fans will disagree, but I'm a Mary fan too, lol: by 1982, Mary's solo career really wasn't going anywhere. Her debut was a flop and her second album never came to fruition. She was touring with two "ladies" as "of", "and", "with", and "formerly of" The Supremes. She might as well just reformed a legit grouping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    It would have been interesting to see what a reformed Supremes might have done or sounded like. If this would have been 1982, it would have been right when the Pointer Sisters were about to hit big. Of course, we know a few years later, Cindy would be asked to form the FLOs but declined for a solo "career". She should have stuck with the Supremes/FLOs.

    Lastly, and I'm sure Mary fans will disagree, but I'm a Mary fan too, lol: by 1982, Mary's solo career really wasn't going anywhere. Her debut was a flop and her second album never came to fruition. She was touring with two "ladies" as "of", "and", "with", and "formerly of" The Supremes. She might as well just reformed a legit grouping.
    I am a huge Mary fan, she was the reason I stuck with the Supremes. I think in a group situation Mary was democratic even when she pushed her weight around as an original member. I think she grew weary of group politics and desired to finally be in charge. Her background singers were hired by her so she had all the say, reforming a legit group would have meant dealing with those inner politics all over again. As far as Lynda, when she first was there in 72-3, I really missed Cindy. The combo of Mary and Cindy really was something special for me. Looking later, Lynda really provided a mid 70's youth and appeal and she was certainly talented in her own right. My only beef still is that she was in the group a short time, like Jean resented the name and felt it was holding it back only in 1986 to use the very name to promote themselves. I think a group of Jean, Scherrie and Cindy would have been awesome as the FLOs rather than her ill fated stab at a solo career. As for Mary, had Motown released a second album and promoted her a soulful balladeer rather than having her debut with a disco sound maybe she would have had the success she deserved. There isn't one of them, including Diana, who hasn't used their Supremes tenure to varying degrees in promoting themselves.

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    Excellent point about Mary not re-forming the group. As Mary Wilson and/of/formerly, etc., the Supremes, she was a single artist with background singers she could fire or hire at will. Mary understood what being a group was all about, having been in one with nine other women since she was 13 or 14. Every single incarnation of the Supremes had group political issues, except maybe- maybe- the Barbara lineup. I can imagine that as a grown woman you get to the point where you don't want to deal with other women and the nonsense that can arise with egos and personal issues. This idea that she just had to throw her solo mic down and pick up a group mic and it would be no different is much too simple a way of viewing Mary's situation.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: Mary's solo problems stemmed from her inability to recognize where her strengths were and moving in that direction. She does not appear to have had good management. While I do think there are times when Mary the Rocker had her moment, that wasn't Mary's strength. Yes, she could sing more than ballads, but ballads and mid tempo cuts were really where Mary shined vocally. Had Mary cut an Anita Baker type album in the 80s, I don't know how well it would have done, but I can't imagine that it wouldn't have at least been a critical success. And the fact that she did not capitalize off of the success of Dreamgirl with new music might be the dumbest career move Mary ever made. With the popularity of the book and the buzz surrounding Mary at the time, she probably could've scored a top 20 cut without barely trying.

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    Lynda was the shot in the arm that the Supremes needed when she joined. Unfortunately, Motown squandered it with the Jimmy Webb project. And then the Stevie project went incomplete. I value Lynda as a Supreme. No, she wasn't there an incredibly long time, but Motown messed that up, not Lynda. She was sexy, vibrant, energetic and had a beautiful singing voice. She gets an A for effort in my book.

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    Legally, Karen Jackson and Kaaren Ragland were signed to Supremes Inc as Supremes. Though not signed to Motown, Ragland won a substantial amount of money from Mary when the two went to court over the name Supremes. The court sided with Ragland which would have made her an official, legal Supreme. It is not known if any other ladies were signed to Supremes Inc but some may have been.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Legally, Karen Jackson and Kaaren Ragland were signed to Supremes Inc as Supremes. Though not signed to Motown, Ragland won a substantial amount of money from Mary when the two went to court over the name Supremes. The court sided with Ragland which would have made her an official, legal Supreme. It is not known if any other ladies were signed to Supremes Inc but some may have been.
    being hired to Supremes Inc as an employee wouldn't necessarily make you a supreme. while motown gave mary a % of the value of the name "The Supremes" did they contractually grant her and Supremes Inc the authority to hire and fire members?

  32. #32
    There were only 9 Supremes who were signed by Motown as group members! I had no idea that this would burst into flames when I asked confirmation. BTW as well as asking here I also reached out to Andy Skurow who confirmed 9. No one else was ever a Supreme despite what anyone says. Stand in's, Karen's etc do not count. I wish that I could shut this down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Excellent point about Mary not re-forming the group. As Mary Wilson and/of/formerly, etc., the Supremes, she was a single artist with background singers she could fire or hire at will. Mary understood what being a group was all about, having been in one with nine other women since she was 13 or 14. Every single incarnation of the Supremes had group political issues, except maybe- maybe- the Barbara lineup. I can imagine that as a grown woman you get to the point where you don't want to deal with other women and the nonsense that can arise with egos and personal issues. This idea that she just had to throw her solo mic down and pick up a group mic and it would be no different is much too simple a way of viewing Mary's situation.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: Mary's solo problems stemmed from her inability to recognize where her strengths were and moving in that direction. She does not appear to have had good management. While I do think there are times when Mary the Rocker had her moment, that wasn't Mary's strength. Yes, she could sing more than ballads, but ballads and mid tempo cuts were really where Mary shined vocally. Had Mary cut an Anita Baker type album in the 80s, I don't know how well it would have done, but I can't imagine that it wouldn't have at least been a critical success. And the fact that she did not capitalize off of the success of Dreamgirl with new music might be the dumbest career move Mary ever made. With the popularity of the book and the buzz surrounding Mary at the time, she probably could've scored a top 20 cut without barely trying.
    good points Ran.

    both Mary and Diana have made lots of comments about the Music BUSINESS. that the business-side of things is really the bulk of the work. the stories we've heard about mary's business haven't always been very strong. unfortunately we don't have a lot of really trusted sources - T Turner was eager to dog her and her shoestring operation but was that accurate or just evil gossip. Clearly there were some mistakes throughout the 70s run but hey you gotta learn somehow and sometime.

    again, both diana and mary can be examples of the pitfalls of managing your own career. Diana clearly made mistakes when she ventured out to RCA. Mary made mistakes is managing herself to be a traditional pop singer. unfortunately it appears that no other labels were seriously interested in managing mary. maybe it was that by the time she was really ready to do a pop solo career, she was just too old [[being 35 in 1979). maybe the labels realized that a misty smoky alto voice just wouldn't easily translate to pop radio hits for teeny boppers. Motown clearly never had 1 smidge of interest in her as a singer pretty much from day 1 - and there was never any consideration [[other than in maybe mary's mind) that she would have been a candidate to replace diana. Why was this? this is certainly well before she ran into political problems with the label and its lack of support. The label had certainly signed plenty of singers that weren't the most outstanding pop voice ever - mary wells is one that had, at best, a limited voice. but she clicked with the label from day 1. so why not mary wilson and did other labels know this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Lynda was the shot in the arm that the Supremes needed when she joined. Unfortunately, Motown squandered it with the Jimmy Webb project. And then the Stevie project went incomplete. I value Lynda as a Supreme. No, she wasn't there an incredibly long time, but Motown messed that up, not Lynda. She was sexy, vibrant, energetic and had a beautiful singing voice. She gets an A for effort in my book.
    couldn't have said it better

    both the Temps and the Sups had this odd "plebe" period where new members were on lengthy probationary periods. that was idiotic although the temps seemed to deal with it better. when Damon replaced Eddie, he was on a probationary period but still got exposure. someone had to sing Just My Imagination and it sure as hell wouldn't/couldn't have been Otis.

    when a company hires a new executive, no one tells him or her "hey you just do as you're told for the new 18 months and don't bother bringing in any fancy new ideas or thoughts or projects" that's just stupid

    the transition from Flo to Cindy was sort of like this - they just needed a 3rd body that fit the shoes and overall look.

    But the others were different. when Jean joined, they tried to really broaden and redefine the sound. great!! exactly what they should have done. problem is after a while they stopped evolving and reverted back to DRATS stuff

    Lynda's replacement of Cindy was a definite shake up of the group. a totally different sound, personality, everything. and yet they did nothing with her. this should have been an opportunity to say "ok we have a new person so let's see what we can do different. let's try something new and fresh and incorporate her into that". Imagine if the JW project had 1) not used the additional singers and 2) approached the trio like the MS&S album, with shared leads, trading lines back and forth, fresh new 3-part harmonies, lead vocals for each

    I give the Hollands credit for doing this with the new MSS lineup. a song like Come Into My Life would have been a hot mess for Cindy or Mary to do. and even Scherrie. i don't know if it was written for Susaye but the way they used her wide-ranging voice, how her high whistle tones were segued into the synthesizer shows a producer that understands the unique qualities and talents of his vocalist and plans for it.

    now imagine if JM had done that with Lynda

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    Quote Originally Posted by copley View Post
    There were only 9 Supremes who were signed by Motown as group members! I had no idea that this would burst into flames when I asked confirmation. BTW as well as asking here I also reached out to Andy Skurow who confirmed 9. No one else was ever a Supreme despite what anyone says. Stand in's, Karen's etc do not count. I wish that I could shut this down.
    Maybe I missed something, but who in this thread is arguing any different? We all seem to be in agreement that the official count of Supremes signed to Motown is nine. Am I overlooking a post or posts that would cause you to want to shut the thread down? I'm confused.

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    I think Mary's talents in the 60s and 70s worked best as a group performer, not a soloist. Later she became a very good solo entertainer for oldies concerts as well as small club jazz/ballads shows, and theater shows that toured the hinterlands and symphony style oldies concerts in such locales. She found her lane and did well for herself as Keeper of the Supremes flame and as an entertainer who could bring Motown and Supremes magic to venues Diana Ross as a solo star generally did not do [[though there was occasional overlap such as state fairs or Vegas bookings but even there Diana did better hotels than Mary as a rule).

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    I didn't make my point clear apparently, OFFICIALLY there were 9 Supremes. LEGALLY there were more. This is why Mary lost the lawsuit to Kaaren Ragland for using the name Supremes. Mary Wilson did own a percentage of the ownership of the name Supremes and at the trial, Ragland showed her contract and the court ruled in her favor, that if indeed Ragland had been signed to Supremes Inc as a member of the group and since Mary owned a percentage of the name, then in fact Ragland was official and she could use the name Supremes. This was a devestating blow to Mary and to all the fans who objected to Ragland doing this.

    Motown was heavily involved in all ladies signed to the group until 1973 when Mary hired Scherrie Payne. At this point Motown, although objecting to this, gave Mary the latitude to do as she pleased fully realizing the group was imploding. After June 1977 there were lawsuits all over the place when Mary continued to work with other ladies worldwide as the Supremes.

    Confusing as this is now just imagine how it was THEN!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    again, both diana and mary can be examples of the pitfalls of managing your own career. Diana clearly made mistakes when she ventured out to RCA. Mary made mistakes is managing herself to be a traditional pop singer. unfortunately it appears that no other labels were seriously interested in managing mary. maybe it was that by the time she was really ready to do a pop solo career, she was just too old [[being 35 in 1979). maybe the labels realized that a misty smoky alto voice just wouldn't easily translate to pop radio hits for teeny boppers. Motown clearly never had 1 smidge of interest in her as a singer pretty much from day 1 - and there was never any consideration [[other than in maybe mary's mind) that she would have been a candidate to replace diana. Why was this? this is certainly well before she ran into political problems with the label and its lack of support. The label had certainly signed plenty of singers that weren't the most outstanding pop voice ever - mary wells is one that had, at best, a limited voice. but she clicked with the label from day 1. so why not mary wilson and did other labels know this?
    Mary never looked her age, so I don't think she would've had a terrible problem post 1979 in being marketed with music that appealed to a younger crowd. With that being said, Mary was not the only one of her age trying to make it, either as a new comer or as someone rebranding. The problem was that Mary was doing this yo-yo thing where she was bouncing between rebranding as Mary the Rocker artistically, and then reverting back to Mary Wilson, Supreme in order to pay the bills. I don't think any label or many audiences would have bought into Mary the Rocker. Had Mary started marketing herself as a Anita Baker-Sade-Brenda Russell-Roberta Flack type of singer, that Adult Contemporary, smooth jazz, R&B meshing of sound, that may have worked for her, especially if she managed to hook up with great producers who gave her high quality material. I love her Atlantic demos because that sound was headed in the right direction [[hope we get cleaned up versions of those at some point). Why that deal fell apart no one has been able to answer me about it.

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    As for Motown's interest, I think when Diana left there were two big strikes against Mary taking over the role:

    1) Mary's sound was so considerably different from Diana's. The whole point in finding a Jean Terrell, or even second guessing that decision and attempting to replace her with Syreeta, is because they had Diana type voices. Mary's voice would have been a complete departure in sound and could have possibly immediately alienated the public.

    2) Mary had confidence issues. You can't take over for Diana Ross and lack confidence. Jean knew she could sing and you couldn't tell her she couldn't and not get the shit smacked out of you. Mary knew she could sing, but she wasn't always confident enough to do more than a lead or two in a show. Mary, lead vocalist of 1969/1970 is a far cry from Mary, lead vocalist 1975/1976. It took her years to gain the confidence that clearly shows in how dramatically her vocal abilities increased.

    Now to be fair to Motown, they apparently weren't thumbing down Mary sharing leads, hence why she is co-lead on three singles during the Jean era, one of them a hit. If they were against the idea those singles would not have been released. And Motown greenlit "He's My Man" as a single which is more a Mary lead than a co-lead with Scherrie.

    I have a feeling that Mary's confidence issues were always an issue from the beginning. IMO Mary had the most relatable girl group voice in those early days, and yet she was not given the opportunity like Diana and Flo were given.

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    Quote Originally Posted by copley View Post
    There were only 9 Supremes who were signed by Motown as group members! I had no idea that this would burst into flames when I asked confirmation. BTW as well as asking here I also reached out to Andy Skurow who confirmed 9. No one else was ever a Supreme despite what anyone says. Stand in's, Karen's etc do not count. I wish that I could shut this down.
    I think it's been well documented that there were 9 Supremes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Maybe I missed something, but who in this thread is arguing any different? We all seem to be in agreement that the official count of Supremes signed to Motown is nine. Am I overlooking a post or posts that would cause you to want to shut the thread down? I'm confused.
    Exactly, RR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Maybe I missed something, but who in this thread is arguing any different?
    Me! I am! You refuse to acknowledge the Queen and First Lady of Motown, Dr. Mrs. Shantal Baker, Esq, M.D., DDT. as a truly and bonafidely SUPREME.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    As for Motown's interest, I think when Diana left there were two big strikes against Mary taking over the role:

    1) Mary's sound was so considerably different from Diana's. The whole point in finding a Jean Terrell, or even second guessing that decision and attempting to replace her with Syreeta, is because they had Diana type voices. Mary's voice would have been a complete departure in sound and could have possibly immediately alienated the public.

    2) Mary had confidence issues. You can't take over for Diana Ross and lack confidence. Jean knew she could sing and you couldn't tell her she couldn't and not get the shit smacked out of you. Mary knew she could sing, but she wasn't always confident enough to do more than a lead or two in a show. Mary, lead vocalist of 1969/1970 is a far cry from Mary, lead vocalist 1975/1976. It took her years to gain the confidence that clearly shows in how dramatically her vocal abilities increased.

    Now to be fair to Motown, they apparently weren't thumbing down Mary sharing leads, hence why she is co-lead on three singles during the Jean era, one of them a hit. If they were against the idea those singles would not have been released. And Motown greenlit "He's My Man" as a single which is more a Mary lead than a co-lead with Scherrie.

    I have a feeling that Mary's confidence issues were always an issue from the beginning. IMO Mary had the most relatable girl group voice in those early days, and yet she was not given the opportunity like Diana and Flo were given.
    agree with your comments. my point wasn't saying she was unqualified vocally to sing lead or co-lead or whatever. but during the 9 years with diana, there was just such a lack of tunes with mary on lead. basically they tossed her an obligatory tune on many of the concept lps. and i get it that everything, even early on, was being stacked behind diana. but there is a surprising lack of leads in 69 and into the 70s era. of course it could be that some things have been erased so maybe there was more at one time. but we have 1 with Frank - can't take my eyes? and then 4 with deke and that's it? until we get to Touch and A Heart Like Mine? that's still a pittance. there was certainly the time and opportunity to experiment had they wanted to. and then in 73 when mary was trying to reform the group and wanted to do leads, motown said "nope."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    Me! I am! You refuse to acknowledge the Queen and First Lady of Motown, Dr. Mrs. Shantal Baker, Esq, M.D., DDT. as a truly and bonafidely SUPREME.
    Shantal Baker, holder of every degree there is, former member of the Supremes, survivor of the Titanic, signer of the Declaration of Independence. She does not get the respect she deserves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    agree with your comments. my point wasn't saying she was unqualified vocally to sing lead or co-lead or whatever. but during the 9 years with diana, there was just such a lack of tunes with mary on lead. basically they tossed her an obligatory tune on many of the concept lps. and i get it that everything, even early on, was being stacked behind diana. but there is a surprising lack of leads in 69 and into the 70s era. of course it could be that some things have been erased so maybe there was more at one time. but we have 1 with Frank - can't take my eyes? and then 4 with deke and that's it? until we get to Touch and A Heart Like Mine? that's still a pittance. there was certainly the time and opportunity to experiment had they wanted to. and then in 73 when mary was trying to reform the group and wanted to do leads, motown said "nope."
    I think that was a producer issue. During the Flo years, Mary got some chances to shine, both in the studio and the live act, when the Supremes were still a trio with equal membership, no matter how unequal the number of leads. Once DRATS happened, this was basically Diana Ross solo with the illusion that she was still a part of a trio. No surprise that this is the point when Mary's leads dry up considerably.

    Then comes Jean. While the trio returned to it's pre-Cindy form of being an equal trio, Jean was still the official lead singer, so giving Mary more leads might have been a "why" situation. Once Scherrie comes into the group, Mary is clearly the boss. There is no more official lead singer, and the producers basically record them as such.

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    It's funny though how both Diana and Mary used the Supremes as a "crutch" when they first went solo; Diana in sound, and Mary on stage.

    All of Diana's recordings through 1972 rely heavily on "background singers", in some cases, the same background singers that were on 1968 and 1969 DRATS recordings. So while the label may say DIANA ROSS, it was still the same product she'd been releasing for 3 or 4 years.

    Mary of course grabbed two gals and threw then in TCB swirl gowns and called them her backup singers.....but were often promoted as Supremes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Shantal Baker, holder of every degree there is, former member of the Supremes, survivor of the Titanic, signer of the Declaration of Independence. She does not get the respect she deserves.
    I feel better now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    It's funny though how both Diana and Mary used the Supremes as a "crutch" when they first went solo; Diana in sound, and Mary on stage.

    All of Diana's recordings through 1972 rely heavily on "background singers", in some cases, the same background singers that were on 1968 and 1969 DRATS recordings. So while the label may say DIANA ROSS, it was still the same product she'd been releasing for 3 or 4 years.

    Mary of course grabbed two gals and threw then in TCB swirl gowns and called them her backup singers.....but were often promoted as Supremes.
    see i think Diana broke away from the Supremes sound quite quickly. DR 70 IMO is radically different from anything she had recorded with the Sups. Frankly i always thought the Bones Howes tracks were too supremes in sound and maybe that's why they remained in the can. there's a much heavier r&b influence in her A&S stuff and her vocals are much more aggressive and assertive

    now maybe on stage her show was reminiscent of the supremes. she was often still doing Lady Is A Tramp, she used the Leading Lady medley for a while. Don't rain on my parade.

    true she often used female backing singers. not to sound sexist but i believe that's for the best. male voices tend to be heavier than female and that makes the Ooooo and Ahhhs sometimes too thick and weighty. so not only do you miss the upper soaring soprano range by not having female backups, the sound is drastically different. listen to her backup on the Caesar album for a perfect example of this. the male voices just weigh down the Sups medley and other songs.

    of course it does depend on the singers themselves. she's used other mixed vocal combos and it's been more successful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    It's funny though how both Diana and Mary used the Supremes as a "crutch" when they first went solo; Diana in sound, and Mary on stage.

    All of Diana's recordings through 1972 rely heavily on "background singers", in some cases, the same background singers that were on 1968 and 1969 DRATS recordings. So while the label may say DIANA ROSS, it was still the same product she'd been releasing for 3 or 4 years.

    Mary of course grabbed two gals and threw then in TCB swirl gowns and called them her backup singers.....but were often promoted as Supremes.
    when i finally got the bootleg of Mary's NYNY debut, i wasn't surprised but certainly disappointed. it was essentially the same show MSS had been doing. same arrangements, same songs. what was a big success was her funny Sups medley doing just the backing vocals. and while she of course added in songs from her lp, those just replaced whatever similar Sup songs had been in the prior show.

    Frankly it wasn't a strong show when MSS were doing it. It wasn't really that enjoyable IMO - Everybody Gets to go to the moon/corner of the sky??? by the late 70s both of those songs were pretty passé. then came Midnight Dancer [[instead of Let Yourself Go). then the sups medley. then her tired The Way We Were. of course Can't Take My Eyes, How Lucky were ever present.

    There were a lot of full Sup songs - Stoned Love, Driving Wheel, You're What's missing, Someday plus two medleys. but mary's lead on Wheel isn't really showing her off well. and lord - can we please retire Can't Take My Eyes? we know they did Teardrops live some - why didn't she dust that one off? it's a gorgeous song that she sang marvelously. and the charts were already done and ready for the orchestra.

    But the bigger problem is this just wasn't an exciting new concept. yes it includes 3 new songs from the lp. but it needed to have something new that would have appropriately showcased her vocals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Legally, Karen Jackson and Kaaren Ragland were signed to Supremes Inc as Supremes. Though not signed to Motown, Ragland won a substantial amount of money from Mary when the two went to court over the name Supremes. The court sided with Ragland which would have made her an official, legal Supreme. It is not known if any other ladies were signed to Supremes Inc but some may have been.
    But if Motown owned the name Supremes and Kaaaren was not signed to Motown then that throws a curveball in her argument that she was legally a Supreme especially if Motown objected to it.

    Universal/Motown made a statement in the back of the Final Sessions acknowledging 9 women. That's the final word on the matter. Court ruling or not, the Supremes were 9 women - nothing more or less, court ruling or not.
    Last edited by bradsupremes; 06-24-2022 at 01:44 PM.

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