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  1. #1
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    MSC - if the trio had continued long term, what could they have done?

    it does seem that MSC had the potential to remain a group for a long period, had they had proper management. not saying they would have had or even needed to have #1 records all the time. they could have just maintained as a staple of the entertainment industry

    so through the late 70s, the 80s and even the 90s and today, what are some things the group could have done? what did other groups do that perhaps could have instead been the Sups? what are some fantasy ideas?

    Gimme a break - i remember a great episode that focused on Nell's back history and her girl group [[played by the Pointer Sisters). this would have been fun to have the Sups do

    i think being guest artists on some track that En Vogue did in the early 90s or even Destiny's Child in the early 00s. maybe do a fun joint performance at the VMAs or Grammy's or something. sort of a modern version of what the Sups and Andrew Sisters did on Sammy's show in the 60s.

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    disco was right on the brink of becoming a huge splash,.
    'always thought their last album was one of their best, minus the first single
    a few more singles could have turned things around
    great vocals

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    Looking back I just don't see the ladies being more than a disco act. I doubt mainstream America would have embraced them again.

    As hard as the other fans and I worked to revive them, the letters to Motown, the radio station requests, all I kept hearing was "Oh they're not the Supremes" or "They're an old group." Two of the ladies were well into their thirties and one was approaching 40. Typically the hot record sellers are quite young...so record companies can control them and in most cases rip them off. Mary, Scherrie and Cindy had grown up by this time. They were establishing families and marriages and these distractions are compromising to female artists when it comes to promotion and record companies investing into them.

    Despite the great lps, and I'm talking in hindsight, Mary and Lynda should have embarked on solo careers when Jean left in 1973. Motown was never going to embrace the Supremes again. They had served their purpose.

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    1. Get Pedro completely out of the picture and out of Mary's life
    2. Improve the live show [[ditch magic genie and speeded up medleys) and focus it on Scherrie with a few ballads for Mary to sing and chances for the trio to show their harmonic blend.
    3. They may not have scored huge pop hits, but they could have ended up a steady live performing group doing show rooms and oldies shows and some guest appearances on various shows. Still recording albums of new material and scoring at Black radio [[presuming the material was right), much like The Temptations did after they returned to Motown.

  5. #5
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    After reading how miserable the pointer SISTERS were, there’s no way these three thrown together strangers could have maneuvered through those same times.

    And They were just sort of the Supremes which on record didn’t matter as much but in person not so good , even Cindy had not become a strongly identifiable persona despite years in the making.

    without Jean they had really become just the back up group .
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 05-27-2022 at 12:46 PM.

  6. #6
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    I am constantly amazed by fans using woulda and coulda to try to salvage the group in the mid 70s. Surely Pedro, and to a lesser degree Mary, contributed to the demise of the group. Yet in some ways they were also responsible for the continuation of the group albeit in reduced popularity.

    The truth is that Jean and Lynda were prophetic in leaving when they did. I interviewed Jean about this at length in 1978. She could see that Motown had put everything behind Diana Ross. Had Lady Sings failed it is possible that Motown would have folded, or at the very least suffered several financial blows. Lynda could also see that the direction Mary wanted to go in was not logical, at least to her. Both ladies were expecting and this made the decision to leave easy rather than continue to make unsuccessful records and perform to half-filled rooms to tepid or even bad reviews. No entertainer wants that. I guess it comes as no surprise that one of the final performances of the group stateside was met with jeers and the ladies being rushed offstage for their safety.

    Mary was abandoned in 1973. She knew she could not take the Supremes forward on her own, nor was she ready to go solo. Being that Pedro was the only one throwing her a life line, she grabbed it.

    Motown was also changing. Their veteran acts were leaving steadily. The public was now going toward self-contained acts; artists that wrote and produced their own material and played their own instruments. Stevie, Smokey, Marvin, the Commodores, all these artists fell into that category. The Supremes were an expensive act. They needed writers, producers, musicians, choreographers and such. While Scherrie has songwriting abilities she only had a modest hit to her name prior to joining. The Pointer Sisters, LaBelle, and the Emotions did write at least some of their own material which did become hits.

    The Supremes after 1973 were essentially an oldies act. People who attended their shows wanted to hear the old hits far more than new recordings. Rushed medleys usually were met with disdain, especially in Vegas. Scherrie and Susaye were high powered vocalists, but this was not the type of sound associated with the Supremes.

    By 1974, hard as it is to accept, the group had ran its course. It happened to the Andrews Sisters. To the McGuire Sisters. The Shirelles, the Marvelettes, etc. It happens to the best of artists. Tastes change and interest sways.

    In my eyes it is rewarding to have followed and supported the singular girl group to which all future girl groups would be compared to. That is legacy enough.

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    this post is meant more as a fantasy what-if. assuming there was some degree of support of the group and without the major problems like Pedro and all. the FLO's have had some degree of success touring around and maintaining the legacy of the group. are they selling millions of records and selling out major arenas - no. but they're still touring and keeping things going. so is MSC had either remained a group or reformed in the 80s.

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    Hmmm All the supposed Motown legacy acts with various members have managed to be successful enough through time to put food on the table

    is that the goal ?

    if so Mary did fine with that on her own probably with a lot less headaches .

    Pondering further, I'm glad the results were "Mary Wilson" being the headline name on the tickets and not as anything less. She is THE Supreme and rightful purveyor .
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 05-27-2022 at 03:04 PM.

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    I rarely participate in such "what if" threads, but in this case, I have held firm to the belief that if at any point after Ross left, they would have ditched the name "The Supremes" and done something like LaBelle did, they would have lasted another 10 years and scored more hits.

    Were Marv2 around, I'm sure he would argue that The 70s Supremes were still wildly successful. I think he even argued at one point they were THE most successful girl group of the 70s. Too bad girl groups were a thing of the past by 1970 and he's not here to tell me how wrong I am.

  10. #10
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    interesting .... if they ditched the name "Supremes" ....then as who would they be instead and what would've been the purpose??

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    By and large, Ross was The Supremes. Without her, it was semi-blah and blah. Jean was no Diana Ross and neither were Mary and Cindy.

    The group should have become “The Wilson’s” and started afresh.
    Last edited by Circa 1824; 05-27-2022 at 05:00 PM.

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    By and large yes. However Ross relinquished her claim as The Supreme twice, first by separating her name from the title and second by leaving the group altogether.
    Mary on the other hand was loyally a Supreme from day one til day 10,001, their final day. She is The Supreme.

    The Wilsons haha!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    it does seem that MSC had the potential to remain a group for a long period, had they had proper management. not saying they would have had or even needed to have #1 records all the time. they could have just maintained as a staple of the entertainment industry

    so through the late 70s, the 80s and even the 90s and today, what are some things the group could have done? what did other groups do that perhaps could have instead been the Sups? what are some fantasy ideas?

    Gimme a break - i remember a great episode that focused on Nell's back history and her girl group [[played by the Pointer Sisters). this would have been fun to have the Sups do

    i think being guest artists on some track that En Vogue did in the early 90s or even Destiny's Child in the early 00s. maybe do a fun joint performance at the VMAs or Grammy's or something. sort of a modern version of what the Sups and Andrew Sisters did on Sammy's show in the 60s.
    Great topic!

    I may be repeating myself, but I believe they could’ve gone very far as it was a great time for them: The Jackson 5, Temptations, Four Tops and Gladys we’re all gone. There was no one left other than the Supremes for Barry and Suzanne to concentrate on and they needed the income. Of course, Mary and Pedro would have to relinquish their hold on the group which was destroying it. Pedro would have to go completely and Mary would have to become a group member only again. Suzanne hat vision and they really had no one else to concentrate on as the only act that wasn’t self-sufficient was diana ross and she didn’t take up that much time. The girls had wonderful voices and Mary was coming into her own as a brilliant, sultry vocalist. With the right direction I think they could have become big again. They might’ve been able to work with the Commodores or Rick James or Marvin or Smokey or Stevie. They had the talent, and I believe they would’ve had the correct direction.

  14. #14
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    I personally think they might have done adequately since MSC had great harmonies, visually looked good together and seemed to get along decently when Pedro was not around. Motown had no interest in them. Suzanne De Passe said she felt the Supremes were sequined out. They may have continued on with the Holland Brothers and scored a minor hit or two. They would have continued on as a Motown oldies act through the 1980's. Plans for Marvin to produce them fell through but he was dealing with his own problems by that time. They had the look, talent and style to continue on but Motown had not been behind them since 1971, more or less. If the company has very little interest in you, surely you would not be a priority and flourish. By the 1980's, Mary was let go from Motown because she only got a record deal to drop her lawsuit. She continued on as Mary Wilson of the Supremes and basically cornered the career the group would have had if it continued. Scherrie was in the FLOs in 1986, which started about the time Mary's book was released so that peaked some interest in that group at the time. Cindy was out as a solo act in 1987 and had one single released, eventually turning to ministry when it didn't work out.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Great topic!

    I may be repeating myself, but I believe they could’ve gone very far as it was a great time for them: The Jackson 5, Temptations, Four Tops and Gladys we’re all gone. There was no one left other than the Supremes for Barry and Suzanne to concentrate on and they needed the income. Of course, Mary and Pedro would have to relinquish their hold on the group which was destroying it. Pedro would have to go completely and Mary would have to become a group member only again. Suzanne hat vision and they really had no one else to concentrate on as the only act that wasn’t self-sufficient was diana ross and she didn’t take up that much time. The girls had wonderful voices and Mary was coming into her own as a brilliant, sultry vocalist. With the right direction I think they could have become big again. They might’ve been able to work with the Commodores or Rick James or Marvin or Smokey or Stevie. They had the talent, and I believe they would’ve had the correct direction.
    i agree. the Supremes has a huge legacy of music that could have been exploited better. had there been better management with a stronger vision, the group should have been able to hold onto extended gigs in places like Lake Tahoe, Vegas, etc. the act could have been a classy version of oldies and some modern material. that's essentially what Diana has done for the last 20 - 25 years here in the states. while she's released a few new albums, those really haven't been major efforts or things she developed a whole tour around. she might do a couple songs for the disc but then mostly just does her tried and true. and people enjoy hearing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post

    Were Marv2 around, I'm sure he would argue that The 70s Supremes were still wildly successful. I think he even argued at one point they were THE most successful girl group of the 70s. Too bad girl groups were a thing of the past by 1970 and he's not here to tell me how wrong I am.
    I'm no Marv2, but I've actually made the same argument in the forum on multiple occasions. Going solely off chart action [[since we know that Supremes sales figures are notoriously unreliable due to Motown accounting and certification issues), looking at the Supremes vs the other major female groups of the decade, singles wise:

    Supremes= 2 top 10 pop hits, 5 top 20 pop hits, 8 top 40 pop hits, 1 #1 r&b hit, 5 top 10 r&b hits, 6 top 20 r&b hits, 9 top 40 r&b hits.

    Love Unlimited no top 10 pop hits, 1 top 20 pop, 2 top 40 pop, 1 #1 r&b hit, 2 r&b top 10, 2 r&b top 20, 4 r&b top 40.

    The Emotions 1 #1 pop hit, 2 top 10 pop, 2 top 20 pop, 3 top 40 pop, 1 #1 r&b hit, 5 top 10 r&b, 9 r&b top 20, 17 r&b top 40.

    The Pointer Sisters 1 top 10 pop, 4 top 20 pop, 5 top 40 pop, 1 #1 r&b hit, 6 r&b top 20, 7 r&b top 40.

    Labelle 1 #1 pop hit, 1 top 20 pop, 1 top 40 pop, 1 #1 r&b hit, 2 top 10 r&b, 4 top 20 r&b, 4 top 40 r&b.

    The Three Degrees 1 #1 pop hit [[w TSOP), 2 top 10 pop, 2 top 20 pop, 3 top 40 pop, 1 #1 r&b hit [[w TSOP), 4 r&b top 10, 6 r&b top 20, 9 r&b top 40.

    Regarding albums:

    Supremes 0 pop top 10, 0 pop top 20, 1 pop top 40, 2 r&b top 10, 6 r&b top 20, 10 r&b top 40.

    Love Unlimited 1 pop top 10, 1 pop top 20, 1 pop top 40, 1 r&b top 10, 2 r&b top 20, 3 r&b top 40.

    Emotions 1 top 10 pop, 1 top 20 pop, 2 top 40 pop, 1 #1 r&b, 2 top 10 r&b, 3 top 20 r&b, 5 top 40 r&b.

    Pointer Sisters 0 top 10 pop, 2 top 20 pop, 3 top 40 pop, 3 r&b top 10, 3 r&b top 20, 4 r&b top 40.

    Labelle 1 pop top 10, 1 pop top 20, 1 pop top 40, 2 r&b top 10, 3 r&b top 20, 4 r&b top 40.

    Three Degrees 1 pop top 40, 1 r&b top 20, 3 r&b top 40.

    On the pop charts, single for single, the Supremes bested the other groups in the top 40 and top 20, tieing with the Emotions and the Three Degrees for 2 top 10s. The Emotions, Labelle and the Three Degrees did each get a number one pop hit, which of course eluded the 70s Supremes, though I must note that the Three Degrees and the Emotions were more or less given billing credit for backing vocals on two of their most successful songs, including the one #1 for the Three Degrees.

    Album wise, on the pop charts everybody bested the Supremes, except the Three Degrees. On the r&b chart, the Emotions scored a #1 album, and the Supremes were tied with them and Labelle for top 10s, while the Pointer Sisters managed one more top 10 than the others. The Supremes hit the r&b top 20 albums more than the other ladies, and ended up with 10 top 40 r&b albums. The Emotions came in second with five.

    Now, the term successful will always have different definitions and qualifications depending on the direction one is looking. My assertion has always been, and will continue to be, that single for single the 70s Supremes were the most successful female group of the 1970s. When you consider how many female groups appeared on the scene, to various degrees of success [[and let's be honest, most were very unsuccessful), most of them would overwhelmingly have killed to put up numbers like the 70s Supremes did. Had there never been a 60s Supremes, I think the conversation about "success" as related to the 70s lineups would be completely different.

    Also important to note that these five contemporaries of the Supremes are who I think of as the successful female groups of the 70s. If I left off anybody you all think should've been included and compared, please feel free to add them, along with the data, because I'll be damned if I do anymore research on this topic today. My brain is highly annoyed with all this thinking and computing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    I rarely participate in such "what if" threads, but in this case, I have held firm to the belief that if at any point after Ross left, they would have ditched the name "The Supremes" and done something like LaBelle did, they would have lasted another 10 years and scored more hits.
    What, you too good to ponder what ifs?

    I don't know if they would have lasted another 10, but I believe they would have done better with a name change also.

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    It's important to remember the Supremes' ages during that time. With the exception of Cindy, who was five years older, Mary and Scherrie were in their early 30s. The idea of them focusing on being an oldies act would have been insulting, and rightfully so. As time goes on, all the legacy acts become "oldies". That's just the nature of the game. But these weren't middle aged women, heading toward grandmother years. They were still getting pregnant for goodness sakes. Lol These were women who were in the prime of their lives. Yes, the business was getting to the point where it was treating them as oldies, but the fact that the group hadn't scored a major hit in years had more to do with that than anything else. While my personal preference would've been to see MJL move forward together, I do think MSC was cohesive, and temperamentally a manageable fit. They could have possibly continued on for years, certainly as a legacy act, but lucking up with the right material, and definitely better management, they may have been able to carve out a longer, successful career together.

    That being said, I also hold to my opinion that it was time for Mary to go. She had been in a group since she was 13/14 years old. Like any 30 something, you want to stretch out and leave the nest, if you haven't done so already. It was time. She wasn't a little girl anymore. She was a grown woman. She needed to see what she could do on her own. The Supremes had run it's course.

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    The truth of the matter IMO is that once Florence and then Diana left, the magic was gone. The 70’s Supremes….talented ladies, but the magic gone.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post

    Also important to note that these five contemporaries of the Supremes are who I think of as the successful female groups of the 70s. If I left off anybody you all think should've been included and compared, please feel free to add them, along with the data, because I'll be damned if I do anymore research on this topic today. My brain is highly annoyed with all this thinking and computing.
    Hee haw ....you did good though!

    Although a flash in the pan, Honey Cone shone bright too...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    What, you too good to ponder what ifs?

    I don't know if they would have lasted another 10, but I believe they would have done better with a name change also.
    Yes. Glad you noticed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    Yes. Glad you noticed.
    Your delusions aside, what did you think of my "argument"?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Your delusions aside, what did you think of my "argument"?
    i disagree about the name change. doing so would jettison all of the legacy songs and images. it would essentially be starting a totally new group from the ground up. and pop music tends to like younger artists. You mention the women weren't matronly or grandmas yet. in actual years, yes you're right. in the pop world they were getting old. so starting new could have been even more of a challenge.

    i partially agree with your idea about it being time for mary to do her own things. what i've gathered is mary went solo with the hopes of being a pop solo star. I don't think that was the right move for her. maybe if she wanted to be a solo star and go into jazz or a different genre. but she stuck with pop and basically she ended up doing sort of what i proposed in the very beginning of this thread

    Mary did 2 or so solo albums, she occasionally did a spot in a movie [[like Tiger Town) or commercials. she often attended charity events. but mostly was an oldies act

    the FLOs basically did the same thing.

    so if they were still 1 group - M, L, S or MSC or whatever combo, would it have been more successful. the FLOs had the cooperation of Motown in using the name. mary of course had a legacy with the group. coudl they have done more movie spots, tv gigs, some new matieral and oldies circuits too had they been 1 entity?

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    Mary held out hope for having a successful solo career in the pop market similar like Diana, Dionne, Chaka, etc. I think her best chance of having a hit was with the Gus Dudgeon tracks. Had Motown not released her from her contract, issued a second album consisting of the Gus Dudgeon tracks and actually put a little effort in promoting them, Mary could have a hit on the R&B/pop charts. I think still "Love Talk" and "Save Me" had the potential to be solid hits for her if properly promoted.

    The thing going against Mary was her age, being in Diana's/Supremes shadow, and not having the commercial pop voice record labels were pushing at that time. This doesn't mean Mary couldn't have success in the pop market, but it would be so much harder to find the right material and going up against much younger artists. I think Mary's biggest mistake was not exploring the jazz market sooner. Her Up Close album/show is proof Mary could have been incredibly successful in the jazz world if she chose that path. She really could have reinvented herself - potential albums, Grammys, bookings at legendary jazz festivals, etc. were all attainable. She could have carved out a career and name for herself there. It's a shame she didn't see that in the 80s. Her whole career would have been entirely different and for the better because of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    Mary held out hope for having a successful solo career in the pop market similar like Diana, Dionne, Chaka, etc. I think her best chance of having a hit was with the Gus Dudgeon tracks. Had Motown not released her from her contract, issued a second album consisting of the Gus Dudgeon tracks and actually put a little effort in promoting them, Mary could have a hit on the R&B/pop charts. I think still "Love Talk" and "Save Me" had the potential to be solid hits for her if properly promoted.

    The thing going against Mary was her age, being in Diana's/Supremes shadow, and not having the commercial pop voice record labels were pushing at that time. This doesn't mean Mary couldn't have success in the pop market, but it would be so much harder to find the right material and going up against much younger artists. I think Mary's biggest mistake was not exploring the jazz market sooner. Her Up Close album/show is proof Mary could have been incredibly successful in the jazz world if she chose that path. She really could have reinvented herself - potential albums, Grammys, bookings at legendary jazz festivals, etc. were all attainable. She could have carved out a career and name for herself there. It's a shame she didn't see that in the 80s. Her whole career would have been entirely different and for the better because of it.
    I agree in that Mary could have been a great jazz artist. A modern day Shirley Horne.
    Being in her 30’s wouldn't really have mattered as the world of jazz is far less age conscious then the pop market. She always sounded at home on soulful ballads, but jazz is where she might have ruled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    Mary held out hope for having a successful solo career in the pop market similar like Diana, Dionne, Chaka, etc. I think her best chance of having a hit was with the Gus Dudgeon tracks. Had Motown not released her from her contract, issued a second album consisting of the Gus Dudgeon tracks and actually put a little effort in promoting them, Mary could have a hit on the R&B/pop charts. I think still "Love Talk" and "Save Me" had the potential to be solid hits for her if properly promoted.

    The thing going against Mary was her age, being in Diana's/Supremes shadow, and not having the commercial pop voice record labels were pushing at that time. This doesn't mean Mary couldn't have success in the pop market, but it would be so much harder to find the right material and going up against much younger artists. I think Mary's biggest mistake was not exploring the jazz market sooner. Her Up Close album/show is proof Mary could have been incredibly successful in the jazz world if she chose that path. She really could have reinvented herself - potential albums, Grammys, bookings at legendary jazz festivals, etc. were all attainable. She could have carved out a career and name for herself there. It's a shame she didn't see that in the 80s. Her whole career would have been entirely different and for the better because of it.
    couldn't agree more. especially on the Gus Dungeon material. but i think at that point motown was so done with her that it could never have happened. if motown had had any interest in mary's voice, they would have done something with it earlier

    maybe if she had been permanently located in NYC she could have made that move to jazz earlier. just too bad she didn't have some different career direction or advice earlier.

    as things turned out, i do sort of think it was a mistake for her to not be a part of the FLOs. you basically had the Flos and Mary competing out there and all would have benefited from collaborating

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Your delusions aside, what did you think of my "argument"?
    I think it was a good one. But so were several others’ arguments. The thing with “what if” threads is everyone is right. I find some interesting but there is just no way to do much more with a what if thread than simply guess at what might have been if…

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    I think it was a good one. But so were several others’ arguments. The thing with “what if” threads is everyone is right. I find some interesting but there is just no way to do much more with a what if thread than simply guess at what might have been if…
    Sure, with "what ifs" there really isn't an "argument" to be made, since it's all conjecture. I was referring to my response to your post regarding how Marv would've made the argument that the 70s Supremes were the most successful female group of the decade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Sure, with "what ifs" there really isn't an "argument" to be made, since it's all conjecture. I was referring to my response to your post regarding how Marv would've made the argument that the 70s Supremes were the most successful female group of the decade.
    Oh, that argument [[I can’t keep up). I thought you were spot on, but I still don’t think Marv would agree with either of us! And while that’s a “what if”, I’m pretty sure of it!!!
    Last edited by thanxal; 06-03-2022 at 06:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    Oh, that argument [[I can’t keep up). I thought you were spot on, but I still don’t think Marv would agree with either of us! And while that’s a “what if”, I’m pretty sure of it!!!
    Marv...the forum aint the same without him.

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    Now I'm wondering "what if"
    this thread had never happened !

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