[REMOVE ADS]




Results 1 to 36 of 36
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Posts
    101
    Rep Power
    53

    Who actually invented Soul music, Ray Charles or Sam Cooke?

    So this has got me thinking, over the years both men have been credited for pioneering Soul music over the years. In their box set releases, Ray Charles box set is called "Birth Of Soul' and Sam Cooke's box set is called "The Man Who Invented Soul." The media have given them nick names regarding this.

    So who actually invented it or can both claim the title?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    4,675
    Rep Power
    308
    who first used the word "soul"?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,475
    Rep Power
    121
    Both are all kinds of soul, granted. As far as its creator....hmmmm. IMO, that's like the multi-decades old question - who invented rock and roll? Chuck Berry or Little Richard?

    However, in my world, Otis Redding gets the princely crown of Great Grand of Deep Soul.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    3,942
    Rep Power
    436
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelSherry59 View Post
    So this has got me thinking, over the years both men have been credited for pioneering Soul music over the years. In their box set releases, Ray Charles box set is called "Birth Of Soul' and Sam Cooke's box set is called "The Man Who Invented Soul." The media have given them nick names regarding this.

    So who actually invented it or can both claim the title?
    Good Question! For me, both Ray Charles & Sam Cooke can share the title of "Creator Of Soul". Both of these men came out of 1950's and fused Rhythm & Blues with Gospel Music. I also see the first James Brown recordings ["Please, Please, Please", "Try Me", etc.] as part of the Birth Of Soul in the '50s. PS: I've got those collections by Sam & Ray and they're both Great!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    5,666
    Rep Power
    312
    I'll go with Laverne Baker.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,475
    Rep Power
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by Motown Eddie View Post
    Good Question! For me, both Ray Charles & Sam Cooke can share the title of "Creator Of Soul". Both of these men came out of 1950's and fused Rhythm & Blues with Gospel Music. I also see the first James Brown recordings ["Please, Please, Please", "Try Me", etc.] as part of the Birth Of Soul in the '50s. PS: I've got those collections by Sam & Ray and they're both Great!
    Yeah, Sam jump shipped from the gospel group, Soul Stirrers.

    I'd agree with your assessment, Motown Ed and will throw in the mix, for good measure - The Iceman, Jerry Butler. I still get chills listening to his Deep Soul classics to-date. [[Our fellow Soul Laureate In Residence, Heikki [[?) breaks down Deep Soul in his musical dissertations on Soulexpress.com. I let him know of my abiding fondness for his pieces over the years on here.)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Posts
    101
    Rep Power
    53
    I suppose there are other soul pioneers before Ray Charles and Sam Cooke but the problem is that the media has made the claim that both pioneered the genre over the years, I agree with Motown Eddie that you can include James Brown into the mix, especially his 50s ballads.

    Then you have different soul artists as well that barely get any mentions at all. Is an interesting topic.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    8,629
    Rep Power
    516
    Let's be real: Black folks been doing soul music since time began.

    It's so annoying these labels of "firsts" and "invented" for stuff like this. I don't mind labeling someone as personifying a genre, but can there ever really be an accurate answer to "who invented soul music" or "rock and roll"?

    For my money, I would crown Ray Charles as King of Soul, as he probably set the template of success. Sam wasn't any less soulful, but I would categorize him as much pop as soul...maybe.

    While Ray Charles got the biopic, and he certainly isn't forgotten, I still feel like he doesn't get the shine he so rightfully deserved. Either that or my fandom is clouding my judgement.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    8,629
    Rep Power
    516
    FYI, when I said "annoying" I wasn't referring to your question MichaelSherry, but to the issue in general.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Posts
    101
    Rep Power
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Let's be real: Black folks been doing soul music since time began.

    It's so annoying these labels of "firsts" and "invented" for stuff like this. I don't mind labeling someone as personifying a genre, but can there ever really be an accurate answer to "who invented soul music" or "rock and roll"?

    For my money, I would crown Ray Charles as King of Soul, as he probably set the template of success. Sam wasn't any less soulful, but I would categorize him as much pop as soul...maybe.

    While Ray Charles got the biopic, and he certainly isn't forgotten, I still feel like he doesn't get the shine he so rightfully deserved. Either that or my fandom is clouding my judgement.
    Yeah, I see what you're saying, I also find it annoying whenever the media gives the name out such as "Birth Of Soul" or "The Man Who Invented Soul" which don't get me wrong Ray and Sam were incredible stars during their peak and changed the landscape and would be on my mount Rushmore for soul music [alongside with James Brown and Sly and The Family Stone], but it is annoying when they rarely acknowledge Ruth Brown too, James Brown [like Motown Eddie said] could be credited with the 50s ballads and you have Nancy Wilson etc.

    I think Ray Charles gets his dues but I feel like the younger generation... When it comes to oldies for Rhythm and Blues/Soul, I've noticed their cut off point is the 70s, that's furthest they go back to, they rarely mention the 60s or 50s and Ray's best years were between 1954-1962 and his songs are hardly played on adverts [[commercial just in case the American users get confused), Ray's core fans are... Retired now and
    the lack of reissues etc, we're in a whole new era now to keep their names alive.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Posts
    101
    Rep Power
    53
    Ike and Tina as a duo could be up there too.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    3,942
    Rep Power
    436
    IMHO I don't think any one artist 'created' Soul Music in the 1950's since it was the inevitable outgrowth of the trends that dominated Black Music at that time; R&B, Blues, Gospel. I place artists like Sam Cooke, Ray Charles, Jackie Wilson, Ruth Brown, James Brown, LaVern Baker & Clyde McPhatter as the first Soul Artists. Singers that emerged later in the '50s like Jerry Butler, Ben E. King, Etta James [and others] moved the genre forward into the '60s and beyond.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    2,184
    Rep Power
    247
    Let's give some credit [although not a singer] to the memorable Alan Freed. Cleveland 1953.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    44,432
    Rep Power
    897
    Quote Originally Posted by woodward View Post
    Let's give some credit [although not a singer] to the memorable Alan Freed. Cleveland 1953.
    Respectfully, while Freed certainly is owed major credit for promoting early rock 'n' roll, he did not invent it whatsoever. I'm not sure that he belongs in a discussion about the invention of soul.
    Last edited by sansradio; 05-09-2022 at 10:24 AM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    8,629
    Rep Power
    516
    Quote Originally Posted by Motown Eddie View Post
    IMHO I don't think any one artist 'created' Soul Music in the 1950's since it was the inevitable outgrowth of the trends that dominated Black Music at that time; R&B, Blues, Gospel. I place artists like Sam Cooke, Ray Charles, Jackie Wilson, Ruth Brown, James Brown, LaVern Baker & Clyde McPhatter as the first Soul Artists. Singers that emerged later in the '50s like Jerry Butler, Ben E. King, Etta James [and others] moved the genre forward into the '60s and beyond.
    Yeah, agreed.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    8,629
    Rep Power
    516
    Quote Originally Posted by sansradio View Post
    Respectfully, while Freed certainly is owed major credit for promoting early rock 'n' roll, he did not invent it whatsoever. I'm not sure that he belongs in a discussion about the invention of soul.
    Yeah, major difference between being a component in the spread of popularity vs the creative engineering of it.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    44,432
    Rep Power
    897
    I would have to say, left to the choice between Ray and Sam, Brother Ray all the way. His "I Got a Woman" was revolutionary in secularizing the gospel sound, which is the essence of soul music; it also predates "Dale Cook's" "Lovable" by roughly 3 years.
    Last edited by sansradio; 05-09-2022 at 12:54 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    289
    Rep Power
    114
    I've heard it attributed to both.

    It's like the "who invented funk music?" I've heard James Brown most often, But the last few years I've heard Dyke & the Blazers mentioned

    At some point is comes down to a handful of people doing similar things at roughly the same time and it could be all around the country

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    13,337
    Rep Power
    100
    I heard Cannon Ball Adderley use the word on an album.1960 or so.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    8,629
    Rep Power
    516
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimal Saint View Post

    At some point is comes down to a handful of people doing similar things at roughly the same time and it could be all around the country
    Great take!

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    14,979
    Rep Power
    402
    Quote Originally Posted by woodward View Post
    Let's give some credit [although not a singer] to the memorable Alan Freed. Cleveland 1953.
    Name:  av-5.jpg
Views: 832
Size:  21.1 KB
    WHY???? Alan Freed was a DJ who was a Jazz fan, who happened to discover R&B music, and decided to bring that to the attention of his mainly "Caucasian" radio [[and later, TV, Film, and live audiences. He was more involved in increasing the popularity of vocal group harmony [[later coined "DooWop" music). I suppose his bringing R&B to the attention of largely "Whitebread" audiences allowed many of them to banch from general R&B into so-called "Soul Music" when R&B shifted its sound to what later would be called "Soul Music". But, I wouldn't say that was being "a pioneer of Soul Music".

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    4,675
    Rep Power
    308
    Quote Originally Posted by ralpht View Post
    I heard Cannon Ball Adderley use the word on an album.1960 or so.
    this?

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    44,432
    Rep Power
    897
    Quote Originally Posted by ralpht View Post
    I heard Cannon Ball Adderley use the word on an album.1960 or so.
    Yep. Also, think of Betty Carter's "Jazz [Ain't Nothin' but Soul]" or John Coltrane's Soul Trane. Maybe jazz musicians like these were in search of a wider audience or the commercial rewards and relevance that soul music was enjoying at the time.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    13,337
    Rep Power
    100
    Good find, Boog.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    4,675
    Rep Power
    308
    Quote Originally Posted by sansradio View Post
    Yep. Also, think of Betty Carter's "Jazz [Ain't Nothin' but Soul]" or John Coltrane's Soul Trane. Maybe jazz musicians like these were in search of a wider audience or the commercial rewards and relevance that soul music was enjoying at the time.

    wow this is fantastic ....birth of "soul" indeed !



    living high off nickels and dimes ...



    is this a reach in its relevance??


  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    4,675
    Rep Power
    308
    Quote Originally Posted by ralpht View Post
    Good find, Boog.
    I am not familiar with Cannonball and I let his music run on youtube in the background while on the computer and found it pleasantly listenable even an hour into it.

    Usually I find an artist distracting by then. I'll add him to my go tos .

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    13,337
    Rep Power
    100
    When I was in The Sunliners,Boog, we played some of his songs. Titles are lost in my aging brain.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,475
    Rep Power
    121
    Didn't Cannonball have a son in the biz?

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    44,432
    Rep Power
    897
    Quote Originally Posted by nativeNY63 View Post
    Didn't Cannonball have a son in the biz?
    You may be thinking of his nephew Nat Jr., who was one of Luther V.’s main collaborators.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    6,823
    Rep Power
    256
    When it comes to the early days of soul, I think we should give an honourable mention to Brook Benton and Jackie Wilson… as well as Motown's Miracles and Marv Johnson!



    [I see Eddie already mentioned Jackie now ]
    Last edited by TomatoTom123; 05-15-2022 at 08:01 PM.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,475
    Rep Power
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by TomatoTom123 View Post
    When it comes to the early days of soul, I think we should give an honourable mention to Brook Benton and Jackie Wilson… as well as Motown's Miracles and Marv Johnson!



    [I see Eddie already mentioned Jackie now ]
    I agree with your mention of Brook Benton, TomT! On my Soul playlist.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    981
    Rep Power
    201
    Ella Fitzgearld and Louis Jordan!

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    44,432
    Rep Power
    897
    Quote Originally Posted by bob_olhsson View Post
    Ella Fitzgearld and Louis Jordan!
    Especially Louis Jordan. The average listener today doesn't even know his name, let alone how massive he was. Great call!

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,475
    Rep Power
    121
    I believe James Brown himself noted him as an influence, in an old interview.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    981
    Rep Power
    201
    Both Jordan and Fitzgearld had sung in Cab Calloway's band. This was Fitzgearld's early career as a pop superstar prior to her jazz career in the 1950s. Music history got rewritten during the 1950s. Little Richard and Chuck Berry amounted to Louis Jordan cover bands. Ella and Cab pioneered the swing dance.

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    227
    Rep Power
    215
    How about Wilson "Wicked" Pickett ? I think he belongs on the list with other great soul singers in the 60's.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

[REMOVE ADS]

Ralph Terrana
MODERATOR

Welcome to Soulful Detroit! Kindly Consider Turning Off Your Ad BlockingX
Soulful Detroit is a free service that relies on revenue from ad display [regrettably] and donations. We notice that you are using an ad-blocking program that prevents us from earning revenue during your visit.
Ads are REMOVED for Members who donate to Soulful Detroit. [You must be logged in for ads to disappear]
DONATE HERE »
And have Ads removed.