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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    it was common practice for people to record a zillion covers and include on an album. i think the issue starts when you release a single or it becomes a centerpiece in your act.

    yes the Sups recorded lots of covers but they typically were only album filler. Im Gonna Make You Love Me is a clear exception and apparently Madeline Bell was NOT pleases as her version was only released a few months prior.

    I think it was less of an issue with Someday since 1) it had been released years prior 2) had no significant public knowledge or impact and 3) the writer was now the one doing the new version.

    Same with Composer - it was a motown song so not as big of a deal. Although it was a deal for Grapevine and GKATP. I wonder if Marvin had any major concerns about Diana's cover of Mountain. it does almost seem like the two Mountains are just entirely different songs and only share a title. maybe if Tammi had lived, it might have been an issue as they would have possibly toured, it was her first big hit, etc.
    Who cares if Madeline Bell was pleased or not? She released it as a single she got her chance to work it. Deedy Warwick recorded it before her and did a better job. Gladys wasn’t thrilled with Marvin doing Grapevine even though he recorded at first she tells it differently right now. None of these have anything to do with love hangover, it was not a cover it was a copy snuck out before the original artist had a chance to do it. There were dozens of covers of Aquarius 1969 and hundreds and hundreds more in the ensuing years. No one tried to release their version before the fifth dimension had a chance to get a platinum single and six weeks at number one.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    i heard that as well, I think that turned to laughter when she heard it.冷
    Naughty release date aside, it would be rather fun to know just what Bab’s and her team actually thought of the Supremes “Funny Girl” recording. Streisand unfortunately has never gone into detail.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    how long was Diana in Europe ....the dates??

    I didn't realize that the Fifths version got released beyond the US and the UK , but I see confirmed pressings in Italy, Trinidad and Germany. Boy ABC really went after it. I wonder why that label thought this a good idea.

    The B side is called WILL YOU BE THERE... also not on any album . Would like to hear it , but can't locate it on YouTube.

    Arrival in London on March 9, first concert on March 14, last concert in Europe on April 20.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Naughty release date aside, it would be rather fun to know just what Bab’s and her team actually thought of the Supremes “Funny Girl” recording. Streisand unfortunately has never gone into detail.

    i’m not a fan of that album, and Babs is too classy to say what she felt, or probably felt when she heard it. To me, it’s just awful. I like a couple of her vocals but it’s such a slap-Dash mess. Maybe it’s OK as a rush job I just can’t listen to it.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    i’m not a fan of that album, and Babs is too classy to say what she felt, or probably felt when she heard it. To me, it’s just awful. I like a couple of her vocals but it’s such a slap-Dash mess. Maybe it’s OK as a rush job I just can’t listen to it.
    I'm not a fan either except for If A Girl Isn't Pretty. I prefer the versions of People and I Am Woman they recorded with Flo in 1965. I was quite surprised out of all the albums that yet received the expanded treatment that this one was chosen.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Kenneth--I had both Star Dancing, which was for the most part excellent, and High On Sunshine, which was just dreadful. When I heard You're My Star I realized it was the worst song the group ever did, and that that would be the end of the group in terms of recording, and it was. I mean look that song up on Youtube and tell me I'm wrong. You could tell they were anything but a priority at Motown. It was sad. The group later recorded an album called Fantasy, yes the same song EWF did in the 70's, and it was a much better LP. Unfortunately the 5th's management at the time had some sort of argument with the label, and it was not released for many years--just online. A few years later they did a CD called In The House and it was just horrible--worse than High on Sunshine. It didn't even chart.
    Thanks so much for sharing your opinions with me. I will check out that song on YouTube and see if I can find some of the other ones you mentioned. It’s hard to believe they could ever make a bad album as they had so much talent and they were so unique.

    Thanks again!

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    Hey Kenneth--on the positive side, check out A Good Love by the 5th, also Lifetime Opera from Star Dancing! I think you'll be impressed!

  8. #58
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    Off-topic: I always found it a bit unbelievable Motown passed on signing the 5th Dimension. Unless Motown felt the mixed groups they had like the Elgins, the Monitors, and Gladys Knight & the Pips were enough, it really doesn't make much sense given how incredibly talented they were and how they fit into the crossover mold Motown was creating. They were leaps and bounds vocally better than the Elgins and Monitors. It's puzzling. Marc Gordon believed in them enough to leave the label, become their manager and take them to Johnny Rivers where they signed with his Soul City Records. Jimmy Webb quickly followed them and left Motown for Soul City.

    Going back on the story of Berry asking if "Up, Up And Away" was on the 5th's demo tape, there were a lot of songs Jimmy Webb wrote at Motown that they gave back to him - "By The Time I Get To Phoenix" being a notable one. Had Motown signed the 5th Dimension and Marc and Jimmy stayed, it's very likely "Up, Up And Away" would have been a Motown production.

    Someone also mentioned on here several years ago that Marilyn McCoo's name was mentioned by Motown executives as a possible replacement for Diana. Even though this is a lot of what ifs, had the 5th signed to Motown, it may have been Marilyn chosen as Diana's replacement and not Jean.
    Last edited by bradsupremes; 04-29-2022 at 08:28 PM.

  9. #59
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    Originally Posted by BobbyC Kenneth--I had both Star Dancing, which was for the most part excellent, and High On Sunshine, which was just dreadful. When I heard You're My Star I realized it was the worst song the group ever did, and that that would be the end of the group in terms of recording, and it was. I mean look that song up on Youtube and tell me I'm wrong. You could tell they were anything but a priority at Motown. It was sad. The group later recorded an album called Fantasy, yes the same song EWF did in the 70's, and it was a much better LP. Unfortunately the 5th's management at the time had some sort of argument with the label, and it was not released for many years--just online. A few years later they did a CD called In The House and it was just horrible--worse than High on Sunshine. It didn't even chart.
    Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    Thanks so much for sharing your opinions with me. I will check out that song on YouTube and see if I can find some of the other ones you mentioned. It’s hard to believe they could ever make a bad album as they had so much talent and they were so unique.

    Thanks again!
    keep in mind by the Motown years they were mere shadows of themselves, more had left than stayed ....like The Temptations.




    oh gawd did Billy Griffin write this during his LA epiphany [was the working title YOU HAVE TO BE A STAR TO BE IN MY SHOW]

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    Off-topic: I always found it a bit unbelievable Motown passed on signing the 5th Dimension. Unless Motown felt the mixed groups they had like the Elgins, the Monitors, and Gladys Knight & the Pips were enough, it really doesn't make much sense given how incredibly talented they were and how they fit into the crossover mold Motown was creating. They were leaps and bounds vocally better than the Elgins and Monitors. It's puzzling. Marc Gordon believed in them enough to leave the label, become their manager and took them to Johnny Rivers where they signed with his Soul City Records. Jimmy Webb quickly followed them and left Motown for Soul City.

    Going back on the story of Berry asking if "Up, Up And Away" was on the 5th's demo tape, there were a lot of songs Jimmy Webb wrote at Motown that they gave back to him - "By The Time I Get To Phoenix" being a notable one. Had Motown signed the 5th Dimension and Marc and Jimmy stayed, it's very likely "Up, Up And Away" would have a Motown production.

    Someone also mentioned on here that Marilyn McCoo's name was mentioned by Motown executives as a possible replacement for Diana. Even though this is a lot of what ifs, had the 5th signed to Motown, it may have been Marilyn chosen as Diana's replacement and not Jean.

    sorry Brad i stepped on your post

  11. #61
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    Yeah I wondered about the title being so similar to McCoo/Davis' song You Don't Have To Be A Star, and they both came out at the same time!
    Anyway--Brad I think it was a good thing that Motown passed on the 5th in the long run. Marc Gordon, their manager, knew that they'd have been lost in a sea of Supremes, Temptations, Tops etc. Marc took them over to Soul City, and the entire company was basically centered around the 5th Dimension--and it worked. When the group migrated to Bell records in 1970, they were never a top priority and within a year and a half, their record sales plummeted. The group was white hot in 1969 after Aquarius, Stoned Soul Picnic, Wedding Bell Blues, etc. so to think they'd fall so quickly after joining Bell Records is a cautionary tale. The politics at that time were crazy.

    Re: Berry turning the 5th Dimension down. My impression is that Berry was too busy trying to keep the Supremes on top, along with all his other acts, at the time they applied. He just didn't have the bandwidth. Oh and by the way, Marilyn was never seriously considered to replace Ross in the Supremes. Her name, if it happened at all, was mentioned when the Motown suits were brainstorming about a possible replacement but it was never seriously entertained. I asked Marilyn about this myself and she didn't even know she was [[sort of) in the running! The simple fact of the matter is that the 5th was on the rise in 1969, while the Supremes were faltering a bit, so Marilyn would have been foolish to jump ship at the time IMO.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Yeah I wondered about the title being so similar to McCoo/Davis' song You Don't Have To Be A Star, and they both came out at the same time!
    Anyway--Brad I think it was a good thing that Motown passed on the 5th in the long run. Marc Gordon, their manager, knew that they'd have been lost in a sea of Supremes, Temptations, Tops etc. Marc took them over to Soul City, and the entire company was basically centered around the 5th Dimension--and it worked. When the group migrated to Bell records in 1970, they were never a top priority and within a year and a half, their record sales plummeted. The group was white hot in 1969 after Aquarius, Stoned Soul Picnic, Wedding Bell Blues, etc. so to think they'd fall so quickly after joining Bell Records is a cautionary tale. The politics at that time were crazy.

    Re: Berry turning the 5th Dimension down. My impression is that Berry was too busy trying to keep the Supremes on top, along with all his other acts, at the time they applied. He just didn't have the bandwidth. Oh and by the way, Marilyn was never seriously considered to replace Ross in the Supremes. Her name, if it happened at all, was mentioned when the Motown suits were brainstorming about a possible replacement but it was never seriously entertained. I asked Marilyn about this myself and she didn't even know she was [[sort of) in the running! The simple fact of the matter is that the 5th was on the rise in 1969, while the Supremes were faltering a bit, so Marilyn would have been foolish to jump ship at the time IMO.
    I know Marilyn wasn’t seriously considered, but it was said her name was bounced around early in suggestion like Freda, Edna Wright, Barbara Randolph, etc were. It would have been too much to buy out Marilyn’s contract, if she was interested, and the 5th were gaining momentum in 1968/1969. By that time, she was ruled out. Jean was a perfect choice, but if there had to be an equally perfect choice it would be Marilyn. She checked all the Supreme boxes.

  13. #63
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    Brad--right. Except I'm not sure if Marilyn would make a good Supreme. I'm not really sure why I think that.

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    I think visually Marilyn would have made a great Supreme. Not sure vocally though. She had a lower range which we already had Mary doing.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    MoManiac--I was not misrepresenting what you said, I was just telling you what LaMonte said in his book. That's all. I don't know why he'd just make it up, especially since he had nothing to gain. On the other hand, I went through all the trades [[Billboard, Cashbox, etc) of that time and the truth nobody seems to remember is that DR's version of Love Hangover was getting enormous amounts of club play before either she or the 5th released it was a single. It was #1 on many club lists, or at least top 5 on most. So there was a huge buzz around the song before anybody thought to release it to pop radio. LaMonte, in his book, said he'd heard the song and knew it was the right dance song that his group wanted at that precarious time in their careers. He didn't mention that it was already huge in the clubs.
    I don’t know why he made it up either, but clearly he did. The same reason lots of people make up things in their books because they want to have a story to tell and add some drama. You didn’t expect him to say we heard this great record on diana ross‘s new album that was getting lots of club play, so, While she was following up her number one hit mahogany with another Michael Masser song, we decided to do what no group or artist with any moral compass at all wouldn’t do, And that is release it ourselves and then years later tell people that we put it out first and then Diana heard it on the radio, threw a fit and then demanded that her single be edited, pressed, put out to stores and radio and by some miracle it charted the same day ours did. That would make his group appear to be shady. There’s more money to be made shading Ross.

  16. #66
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    I suggest that a couple of bonafide #1 Smash Hits would've made Let The Sunshine In a better LP [the closest that the album comes to a big hit was the top ten hit "I'm Living In Shame"]. Also, the set sufferers from too many remakes of then contemporary hits by other artists. Still, my favorite LP cuts from LTSN are "Will This Be The Day" & "Discover Me [And You'll Discover Love]".

  17. #67
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    This is my second least fave DR&TS LP - Together gets the top prize. I don’t care if it’s cohesive or not, just good tracks is enough to pass muster. This mess, however, doesn’t qualify. My list:

    Side 1
    Are You Sure Love Is The Name Of This Game
    I’m Living In Shame
    You Gave Me Love
    The Composer
    The Nitty Gritty
    No Matter What Sign You Are

    Side 2
    Aint No Sun
    What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted
    Wish I Knew
    Discover Me
    I’m Glad I Got Somebody
    Can I Get A Witness

  18. #68
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    Sadly it’s always been a rather dull little album. On the majority of its songs, Diana’s voice sounds overworked and somewhat disinterested. It’s so unlike the “COTC” album, where love it or hate it she’s vocally in great form.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    I think visually Marilyn would have made a great Supreme. Not sure vocally though. She had a lower range which we already had Mary doing.
    I don't necessarily think Marilyn had a lower range like Mary. They had similar timbres, but Marilyn had a wider vocal range. Plus she always sang the soprano part while with the 5th Dimension. I could easily hear Marilyn doing "Up The Ladder To The Roof."
    Last edited by bradsupremes; 05-02-2022 at 01:20 PM.

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    Marilyn McCoo has a 4 1/2 octave range. She can sing reasonably low, but can also soar into the stratosphere like almost nobody else can. Florence LaRue is an alto, with a tremendous head voice that can get up there with Marilyn when she needs to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Sadly it’s always been a rather dull little album. On the majority of its songs, Diana’s voice sounds overworked and somewhat disinterested. It’s so unlike the “COTC” album, where love it or hate it she’s vocally in great form.
    Motown wasn’t even spending one second of effort to protect her voice and have it be in good condition for recording. She is so hoarse on some of those records I can’t listen to them. Like copa 67, why on earth would they record an album with her voice so rough? Plus I would imagine there’s some exhaustion factor in there, along with the bad material. It would be hard to sparkle when you were tired and your throat hurt. I agree with you she does not sound good on a lot of this album. The title track she sounds anemic and it matches the anemic arrangement I don’t know what they were thinking.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    I don't necessarily think Marilyn had a lower range like Mary. They had similar timbres, but Marilyn had a wider vocal range. Plus she always sang the soprano part while with the 5th Dimension. I could easily hear Marilyn doing "Up The Ladder To The Roof."
    I agree. I think Marilyn is the most underrated singer of my generation. What a voice!

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Motown wasn’t even spending one second of effort to protect her voice and have it be in good condition for recording. She is so hoarse on some of those records I can’t listen to them. Like copa 67, why on earth would they record an album with her voice so rough? Plus I would imagine there’s some exhaustion factor in there, along with the bad material. It would be hard to sparkle when you were tired and your throat hurt. I agree with you she does not sound good on a lot of this album. The title track she sounds anemic and it matches the anemic arrangement I don’t know what they were thinking.
    at Copa 67 Diana was suffering from a cold, hence the poor voice. the reason it was recorded was for Cindy to learn the show. i don't believe there was ever any intention of releasing it as a public album. the copa had the recording equipment in place to allow for this, as many albums had been recorded there.

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    I will say her version of "One Less Bell To Answer" is one of my all time favorite songs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    ok - here's an album we don't discuss much. and with the L&F set, we do have quite a bit of material from the vaults.

    IMO this is where the hodge podge effects of grabbing whatever really caused an album to suffer. so many covers!!

    and this IMO is a rare instance where Side 2 is stronger than Side 1. Songs like Discover Me, Will this be the Day, I'm So Glad were interesting and contemporary sounding.
    Side two is definitely the stronger side. I actually enjoy this album. Of the 12 songs there are only three that don't do anything for me: "Everyday People", "Shame" and "Aquarius". I will, however, let "Aquarius" play through sometime because I do like to hear Diana do "Let the Sunshine In". All the other cuts are good to great for me, my favs being "The Composer", "Western Union", "Discover", "Will This Be the Day", "With a Child's Heart", "Brokenhearted" and "Let the Music Play".

    Commercially, the album's downfalls were, perhaps, too many covers, but most certainly the lack of hits. "Shame" was obviously a decent seller, and certainly was a bonafide hit, but if the massiveness of "Love Child" wasn't enough to turn the LC album into the kind of seller that the Flo era singles albums were, relying on "Shame" to sell LTSI was silly. The other two singles didn't wow the public at all, so the album really was going to be dead on arrival.

    I don't fault Motown for "Sign". I think this is one that the public "got wrong", not the label. But "The Composer", as much as I love it, didn't have anything about it that anyone should have thought this was the move to make. I like to think that if it were me, I would have gone with both "Discover Me" and "I'm So Glad", both of which would've needed excellent mixed singles. "Discover" has a fresh and exciting vibe to it that would have been interesting to see the public's reaction to. Similarly to the way "Love Child" was a new direction, I think "Discover" takes the group into a direction that made them edgy and relatable. "I'm So Glad" could have been cut by any of the major players at Motown and been a hit, so I think it would've been a no brainer for the group, keeping their sound contemporary. The essence of "The Composer" is honestly one in which the song could've been recorded by the Barbara era Supremes, or the Flo era Supremes. There was nothing about it that moved the group into fresh waters with the public and so there was little interest. LTSI had potential, but Motown took the lazy route.

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    MoManiac--I was not misrepresenting what you said, I was just telling you what LaMonte said in his book. That's all. I don't know why he'd just make it up, especially since he had nothing to gain.
    That's because it's probably not made up. Remember, LaMonte is speaking from his experience and recollection, not commenting on a forum about people he's unconnected to eons later. Did it happen exactly as he said it did? Maybe, maybe not. Per your posts, this is how the situation was relayed to him. It's possible she had a fit and it was a domino effect, reaching Motown and Motown doing what it needed to do to handle the situation. I'm sure these things happened all the time in the industry. Big deal.

    I don't believe LaMonte is lying at all. He, like most people, have better things to do than make up stories about Diana Ross.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    at Copa 67 Diana was suffering from a cold, hence the poor voice. the reason it was recorded was for Cindy to learn the show. i don't believe there was ever any intention of releasing it as a public album. the copa had the recording equipment in place to allow for this, as many albums had been recorded there.

    Oh, now that makes sense. Her voice is so rough on What’s My Line That I’m surprised she had to do two or three shows at night feeling like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Motown wasn’t even spending one second of effort to protect her voice and have it be in good condition for recording. She is so hoarse on some of those records I can’t listen to them. I would imagine there’s some exhaustion factor in there, along with the bad material. It would be hard to sparkle when you were tired and your throat hurt. I agree with you she does not sound good on a lot of this album. The title track she sounds anemic and it matches the anemic arrangement I don’t know what they were thinking.
    The groups wok schedule was plain nuts. On this album in particular you can clearly hear the strain it put on Diana’s voice. It’s mainly for this reason i also find much of the album uncomfortable listening.
    As regards singles, i would certainly have put “Discover Me” ahead of the lightweight “Composer”. “Let the Sunshine In/Aquarius were big production numbers very popular at the time. All part of Berry’s plan to prove Diana could do it all.

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    Ran ran--I don't see how any of the drama around Love Hangover seems so out of character for Diana Ross to some people. It seems exactly within her character. I'm not a Ross basher--I think her attitude and personality helped her attain what she got! To act like she is not territorial about her songs doesn't jive with what dozens of other people have attested to over the years. Mary Wilson, Florence Ballard, LaMonte, and so many others have said variations of the same thing. They can't all be making up stories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Ran ran--I don't see how any of the drama around Love Hangover seems so out of character for Diana Ross to some people. It seems exactly within her character. I'm not a Ross basher--I think her attitude and personality helped her attain what she got! To act like she is not territorial about her songs doesn't jive with what dozens of other people have attested to over the years. Mary Wilson, Florence Ballard, LaMonte, and so many others have said variations of the same thing. They can't all be making up stories.
    Replace Diana's name with any other singer and the story is what it is. No one would think to question it. Lots of singers are territorial and competitive, and quite honestly, if it played out like LaMonte claims it did, I aint mad at Diana for that. The work she put into "Love Hangover", she deserved the hit. No disrespect to the 5D, but it was her song first, so she should get priority on it being a hit. Sometimes we get a bit too touchy when our favorites aren't the subject of a story that explicitly paints them in a good light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Replace Diana's name with any other singer and the story is what it is. No one would think to question it. Lots of singers are territorial and competitive, and quite honestly, if it played out like LaMonte claims it did, I aint mad at Diana for that. The work she put into "Love Hangover", she deserved the hit. No disrespect to the 5D, but it was her song first, so she should get priority on it being a hit. Sometimes we get a bit too touchy when our favorites aren't the subject of a story that explicitly paints them in a good light.
    it’s not out of character at all, I would’ve had hissy fits also, I’m not questioning whether or not she had a fit because I’m sure she had mini. I’m simply stating it could not have happened that way because there was not time enough to go from hearing a song on the radio to getting it to getting another version press distributed and charting so that both songs debut the same week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Side two is definitely the stronger side. I actually enjoy this album. Of the 12 songs there are only three that don't do anything for me: "Everyday People", "Shame" and "Aquarius". I will, however, let "Aquarius" play through sometime because I do like to hear Diana do "Let the Sunshine In". All the other cuts are good to great for me, my favs being "The Composer", "Western Union", "Discover", "Will This Be the Day", "With a Child's Heart", "Brokenhearted" and "Let the Music Play".

    Commercially, the album's downfalls were, perhaps, too many covers, but most certainly the lack of hits. "Shame" was obviously a decent seller, and certainly was a bonafide hit, but if the massiveness of "Love Child" wasn't enough to turn the LC album into the kind of seller that the Flo era singles albums were, relying on "Shame" to sell LTSI was silly. The other two singles didn't wow the public at all, so the album really was going to be dead on arrival.

    I don't fault Motown for "Sign". I think this is one that the public "got wrong", not the label. But "The Composer", as much as I love it, didn't have anything about it that anyone should have thought this was the move to make. I like to think that if it were me, I would have gone with both "Discover Me" and "I'm So Glad", both of which would've needed excellent mixed singles. "Discover" has a fresh and exciting vibe to it that would have been interesting to see the public's reaction to. Similarly to the way "Love Child" was a new direction, I think "Discover" takes the group into a direction that made them edgy and relatable. "I'm So Glad" could have been cut by any of the major players at Motown and been a hit, so I think it would've been a no brainer for the group, keeping their sound contemporary. The essence of "The Composer" is honestly one in which the song could've been recorded by the Barbara era Supremes, or the Flo era Supremes. There was nothing about it that moved the group into fresh waters with the public and so there was little interest. LTSI had potential, but Motown took the lazy route.
    i completely agree - Discover is probably one of the standouts on the album and frankly one most of us just don't pay enough attention too. i bet most of us forget to regularly include it in playlists and all. while it might not be as strong as Going Down 3rd Time or Ask Any Girl, it is a very very solid album track. and it was a new and relevant sound

    if i had been Exec Producer for the group, i would have definitely done Love Child. but then I think the follow up should have been Evening Train. Living In Shame is as useless in my mind as Twistin Postman was for the M's. Train though is a great tune and captures the anguish and mature new sound they developed on LC.

    Discover could have been the lead single for this album and followed Train

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i completely agree - Discover is probably one of the standouts on the album and frankly one most of us just don't pay enough attention too. i bet most of us forget to regularly include it in playlists and all. while it might not be as strong as Going Down 3rd Time or Ask Any Girl, it is a very very solid album track. and it was a new and relevant sound

    if i had been Exec Producer for the group, i would have definitely done Love Child. but then I think the follow up should have been Evening Train. Living In Shame is as useless in my mind as Twistin Postman was for the M's. Train though is a great tune and captures the anguish and mature new sound they developed on LC.

    Discover could have been the lead single for this album and followed Train
    The moody and slightly edgy sounding “Discover Me” certainly held real hit potential. It’s hard to understand why it was so overlooked being it’s sound matches the vibe of previous Supremes hits perfectly.
    My only criticism being i wish the background vocals were turned up just a smidgeon.

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    The wisdom of expanding an album like LTSI might raise eyebrows, considering how well it performed and what, if any, possible unreleased cuts could be included. But for me one of the best arguments for a set is the possibilities of the guys remixing cuts like "Discover Me" and "I'm So Glad I Got Somebody" so that we might get an idea of just how good of singles they may have been with new mixes. Just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    The wisdom of expanding an album like LTSI might raise eyebrows, considering how well it performed and what, if any, possible unreleased cuts could be included. But for me one of the best arguments for a set is the possibilities of the guys remixing cuts like "Discover Me" and "I'm So Glad I Got Somebody" so that we might get an idea of just how good of singles they may have been with new mixes. Just a thought.
    Good idea and good point, Ranran!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    The wisdom of expanding an album like LTSI might raise eyebrows, considering how well it performed and what, if any, possible unreleased cuts could be included. But for me one of the best arguments for a set is the possibilities of the guys remixing cuts like "Discover Me" and "I'm So Glad I Got Somebody" so that we might get an idea of just how good of singles they may have been with new mixes. Just a thought.
    yeah given that everything during this time was really tied to Diana's departure, i don't think they were approaching the Sups recording sessions like they had in the past. certainly they weren't establishing some sort of unifying structure like what they did with Symphony or A Go Go. or finding a new ongoing producer like they ended up doing with Frank and the new Sups, who could manage the overall approach to an lp

    had Sign been successful, the album would have been titled that and would have still included the patchwork set of singles. i imagine that the album was simply a grab bag of whatever sounded good at the time and throwing in a few high-recognition cover tunes.

    so without some sort of guiding principle for the album or the recording process, an EE for Sunshine would simply be a gathering of studio tracks between dates XX/XX/XXXX and YY/YY/YYYY. we already have L&F so not sure how much is left. and given they were really focusing on pulling diana out, i'd guess there was minimal studio work for the group. just find a hit, release it and let's go

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    I like "Discover Me" but personally I don’t think it’s a hit single. I really like "The Composer" as well, but I agree that it did nothing to advance the Supremes' new ‘sound’.

    For me, "I'm Livin' In Shame" and "No Matter What Sign You Are" are the best tracks off the album, and indeed the best choices for singles.

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    As usual I read these comments and now find myself wanting to have a listen.
    The only song I remember is Let The Music Play.
    My memory is a bunch of adult contemporary out takes.a total mish mish of songs.
    But I'm off to have a listen

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    Off-topic: I always found it a bit unbelievable Motown passed on signing the 5th Dimension. Unless Motown felt the mixed groups they had like the Elgins, the Monitors, and Gladys Knight & the Pips were enough, it really doesn't make much sense given how incredibly talented they were and how they fit into the crossover mold Motown was creating. They were leaps and bounds vocally better than the Elgins and Monitors. It's puzzling. Marc Gordon believed in them enough to leave the label, become their manager and take them to Johnny Rivers where they signed with his Soul City Records. Jimmy Webb quickly followed them and left Motown for Soul City.

    Going back on the story of Berry asking if "Up, Up And Away" was on the 5th's demo tape, there were a lot of songs Jimmy Webb wrote at Motown that they gave back to him - "By The Time I Get To Phoenix" being a notable one. Had Motown signed the 5th Dimension and Marc and Jimmy stayed, it's very likely "Up, Up And Away" would have been a Motown production.

    Someone also mentioned on here several years ago that Marilyn McCoo's name was mentioned by Motown executives as a possible replacement for Diana. Even though this is a lot of what ifs, had the 5th signed to Motown, it may have been Marilyn chosen as Diana's replacement and not Jean.
    Marilyn McCoo was never considered as a replacement for Ross. She was already under exclusive contract and had emerged as the lead singer for the Fifth Dimension. Going into 1970, the Dimension were hotter than the Supremes. Jean Terrell always had the most priority for the job, Syreeta second and anyone else was merely talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Marilyn McCoo was never considered as a replacement for Ross. She was already under exclusive contract and had emerged as the lead singer for the Fifth Dimension. Going into 1970, the Dimension were hotter than the Supremes. Jean Terrell always had the most priority for the job, Syreeta second and anyone else was merely talk.
    Yes, I know that. I already posted that she was not seriously considered but that her name was tossed around in the early stages. In fact, I remember several years back you posted that her name was among those briefly mentioned as a consideration before the search seriously began.

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    That's true, Brad--I remember it as well. I also recall Bayou saying Marilyn's name was mentioned informally early on--pretty much a brainstorming session. This reminds me of the 5th Dimension's FB group where somebody posted that Jean Terrell was in the running to take Marilyn McCoo's place in the group but that wasn't true. Ron Townson approached her and she immediately said no. Jean didn't like show biz and she didn't like a lot of the people in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    That's true, Brad--I remember it as well. I also recall Bayou saying Marilyn's name was mentioned informally early on--pretty much a brainstorming session. This reminds me of the 5th Dimension's FB group where somebody posted that Jean Terrell was in the running to take Marilyn McCoo's place in the group but that wasn't true. Ron Townson approached her and she immediately said no. Jean didn't like show biz and she didn't like a lot of the people in it.
    True. Jean was an incredible singer and loved to sing she just wasn't cut out for the music business and maintaining a successful career. Her experience with Motown left a sour and jaded note with her and I think its the reason why she didn't go anywhere with A&M. She didn't want to put in the effort. Even if the Supremes left Motown in 1973 for ABC I doubt she would have stayed with the group for long. The clock was ticking and I don't think she was willing to adjust to the changing trends.

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    Agreed, Brad

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    True. Jean was an incredible singer and loved to sing she just wasn't cut out for the music business and maintaining a successful career. Her experience with Motown left a sour and jaded note with her and I think its the reason why she didn't go anywhere with A&M. She didn't want to put in the effort. Even if the Supremes left Motown in 1973 for ABC I doubt she would have stayed with the group for long. The clock was ticking and I don't think she was willing to adjust to the changing trends.
    You can kind of understand why Mary was reluctant to leave the label as Jean could be unpredictable.

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    yeah i think Mary frankly made the right decision to not leave motown with L and J. there had been strain between M and J pretty much since she joined the group. Not that they were like cats in a bag but they had different approaches to how the group should be run and direction they should go. and starting out at a new label would have been 1000X more challenging than what they experienced in 70 with Diana's departure. the level of work and effort they'd have had to commit would have been considerable and Jean just didn't seem to be committed to show biz at this level.

    she was a singer more than an entertainer. she seems to have loved the artistic process and all. rather than what Diana and Mary have mentioned over the years of their "love the audience"

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    Besides it probably seemed a bit phony to Jean,
    singing these classics on stage as if …..
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 05-10-2022 at 01:29 PM.

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    It'd be one thing to fill in as the lead replacement if it meant doing an old hit or two but this repertoire of The Supremes required Jean doing virtually entire shows based on another performer's songs.

    Not very appealing/satisfying ...unless you were an Elvis Presley impersonator.
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 05-11-2022 at 01:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    It'd be one thing to fill in as the lead replacement if it meant doing an old hit or two but this repertoire of The Supremes required Jean doing virtually entire shows based on another performer's songs.

    Not very appealing/satisfying ...unless you were an Elvis Presley impersonator.
    i don't know if i would state it quite this way. I think i get what you're going for but i think it echos what I mentioned earlier. Diana and Mary were all about the live performance - being able to thrill an audience. they had trained, and frankly always enjoyed, singing a variety of music from a variety of genres. whether with the Sups or solo, Diana always included way more "other" music versus her own. even as she did finally begin including more of her album content [[like the 79 Caesar show promoting The Boss), there is still ample "other" material.

    it's not that D or M didn't enjoy recording or didn't like recording new and unique material of their own. it's just that they also really enjoyed the live part and entertaining their fans

    Jean on the other hand seems to really focus on her interpretation and unique singing abilities of specific songs. Stoned Love was pretty much always in the act, even when much of the other 70s material was cut or reduced. Jean seems to sing it different EVERY time. how she ad libs, where she scats and brings in some jazz flair, where she alters the melody line, etc. While that might be satisfying to her as an artist, it could make it challenging for audience members to connect. they know the vinyl version and enjoy hearing what they're familiar with and sing along. they're not necessarily there to hear "the jean terrell january 17, 1972 version of..." jean was probably hoping that they would enjoy hearing how she changed it up. and certainly some probably did. but that is more of a risk then just singing it as expected.

    also i think Jean does/did enjoy singing a variety of songs. my guess is that she objected to 1) singing a ton of other songs at the EXCLUSION of her own 2) having more representation of her predecessor's songs in the show than her own and 3) having little to no input in what non-Supremes material they would sing. The girls didn't have much of a voice in building the overall stage show or repertoire. i'm sure if they had a fav song, they could ask Gil and the others to maybe incorporate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i don't know if i would state it quite this way. I think i get what you're going for but i think it echos what I mentioned earlier. Diana and Mary were all about the live performance - being able to thrill an audience. they had trained, and frankly always enjoyed, singing a variety of music from a variety of genres. whether with the Sups or solo, Diana always included way more "other" music versus her own. even as she did finally begin including more of her album content [[like the 79 Caesar show promoting The Boss), there is still ample "other" material.

    it's not that D or M didn't enjoy recording or didn't like recording new and unique material of their own. it's just that they also really enjoyed the live part and entertaining their fans

    Jean on the other hand seems to really focus on her interpretation and unique singing abilities of specific songs. Stoned Love was pretty much always in the act, even when much of the other 70s material was cut or reduced. Jean seems to sing it different EVERY time. how she ad libs, where she scats and brings in some jazz flair, where she alters the melody line, etc. While that might be satisfying to her as an artist, it could make it challenging for audience members to connect. they know the vinyl version and enjoy hearing what they're familiar with and sing along. they're not necessarily there to hear "the jean terrell january 17, 1972 version of..." jean was probably hoping that they would enjoy hearing how she changed it up. and certainly some probably did. but that is more of a risk then just singing it as expected.

    also i think Jean does/did enjoy singing a variety of songs. my guess is that she objected to 1) singing a ton of other songs at the EXCLUSION of her own 2) having more representation of her predecessor's songs in the show than her own and 3) having little to no input in what non-Supremes material they would sing. The girls didn't have much of a voice in building the overall stage show or repertoire. i'm sure if they had a fav song, they could ask Gil and the others to maybe incorporate it.

    In thinking about this, perhaps it was that STONED LOVE was one of the few performed songs Jean felt was really hers, and as its owner , it was hers to play with, have fun with . Whereas with the rest of the stuff, the DRATS hits, if she varied too far from the predicted version, some fans might be indignant, thinking it disrespectful, alienating .....complaining, "if you don't want to do these songs correctly, why did you take this gig in the first place ?'

    I'm sure when Jean accepted this gift to be an instant Supreme, it didn't fully occur to her the degree she'd be standing in the shadows of Diana which as time went on was probably starting to feel too ongoing.
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 05-13-2022 at 02:01 AM.

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    yeah i think jean's free-willed interpretation of all of the songs became an issue. when she did Stop, yeah she went so far off the rails that it was almost indistinguishable. sometimes you couldn't even follow the lyrics.

    Fans, in general, want to sing along with songs. whether on the radio or at a concert. I've always felt this was a bit of the problem with some of the flop 45s like Forever Came Today and Bad Weather. the melody lines for those songs are quite a bit more challenging than Baby Love or Love Child or Ladder. one producer made a comment along the lines of "if you can't easily whistle the song, it could struggle to be a hit - keep it simple"

    fans of the supremes want to hear supremes songs. they want to sing along, enjoy whatever memories those songs bring up. and if nearly all of the hits at the live show are so foreign, that's a problem.

    now to occasionally re-imagine a song, can work. what they did with My World was brilliant. frankly it should have been a stand-alone and not crammed into a medley. and here jean could be much more free with ad libs, veering away from the standard melody, etc.

    there's a time and place for it, IMO. not every song and every instance of singing it

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