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  1. #1
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    Everything is Everything - what could have helped it do better?

    in another thread we mentioned Deke's idea of having Diana do a Beatles album while he was preparing content for the EIE set. I agree that probably wouldn't have been the strongest idea to advance her solo career

    with the EIE set, what would you have done to help it chart better and be a stronger concept?

    from the EE version, are some of the alt or unreleased tracks ones that could have helped it out?

    should they have waited and timed it's release to coincide with I'm Still Waiting as a US release?

    I don't think all of the tunes are terrible, though not as strong as the A&S stuff. and i don't think the EIE set had to be a misfire. it could have worked IMO

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    I think EIE is a pretty good album, although it doesn't approach the brilliance of Diana's Ashford and Simpson debut. Given that it didn't have a single release for almost a year, the fact that it reached #42 is pretty good.

    That said, one thing that I could think might have made it more successful was to include REMEMBER ME on it. Having a successful single on it couldn't hurt.

    Or they could have delayed its release a few months so that it coincided with her first solo tv special. Given that she sang two of its songs on it, that could have been a better promotional tool.

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    Diana needed more tv appearances in her early solo years to help push product.her ittenary didn't have the vigor of the supremes years

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    I assume they released it because she was red hot with ain’t no Mountain high enough. Gordy is too anal retentive to let another producer’s record go out after a big hit. he’d rather lose all of the top 40 momentum and release an album of cuts I enjoy [[except the title cut)but it’s the quintessential Motown hodgepodge - capped by no single release. I would have released I’m still waiting while ain’t no Mountain high enough dropped out of the top 20. It would’ve received another adds to debut somewhere between 55 and 45 and I believe would have hit . Once it hit, i’d release the album remember me a sticker on it that says featuring the hit single I’m still waiting. That would’ve given Ashford and Simpson enough time to get remember me ready for release, as well as fine-tune the next album that would eventually be called surrender. I do not believe that the album had enough time in it because it was commercially lackluster. I know everybody loves it but, there’s a bunch of people here that think touch should have been a hit single. The fact that it charted significantly lower than everything is everything is not a surprise to me.

    Side 1
    Remember me
    baby it’s love
    ain’t no sad song
    how about you
    wish I knew
    i’m still waiting

    Side 2
    My place
    come together
    The long and winding road
    I love you call me
    Close to you
    Doobie Doo Doobie

    I think with the available tracks, this hodgepodge would also go top 20.
    Last edited by TheMotownManiac; 04-21-2022 at 04:07 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I assume they released it because she was red hot with ain’t no Mountain high enough. Gordy is too anal retentive to let another producer’s record go out after a big hit. he’d rather lose all of the top 40 momentum and release an album of cuts I enjoy [[except the title cut)but it’s the quintessential Motown hodgepodge - capped by no single release. I would have released I’m still waiting while ain’t no Mountain high enough dropped out of the top 20. It would’ve received another adds to debut somewhere between 55 and 45 and I believe would have hit . Once it hit, i’d release the album remember me a sticker on it that says featuring the hit single I’m still waiting. That would’ve given Ashford and Simpson enough time to get remember me ready for release, as well as fine-tune the next album that would eventually be called surrender. I do not believe that the album had enough time in it because it was commercially lackluster. I know everybody loves it but, there’s a bunch of people here that think touch should have been a hit single. The fact that it charted significantly lower than everything is everything is not a surprise to me.

    Side 1
    Remember me
    baby it’s love
    ain’t no sad song
    how about you
    wish I knew
    i’m still waiting

    Side 2
    My place
    come together
    The long and winding road
    I love you call me
    Close to you
    Doobie Doo Doobie

    I think with the available tracks, this hodgepodge would also go top 20.
    An excellent concept, which is annoying as it’s always more fun to disagree lol. Your track listing above makes for a far more commercial and cohesive sounding album. Its ironic the album was named after the only truly duff track featured on it.
    In truth the album wasn’t really needed at all. “These Thing Will Keep Me Loving You” was another sure fire hit while “Your All I Need” and “Now That There’s You both held pop potential.

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    i might have made a few adjustments on the song lineup but i think the biggest issue was the poor timing of the release.

    after Mountain, i think Surrender [[the song) would have been the ideal follow up. Remember Me would then follow Surrender and the Surrender album too. Then probably skip Reach Out I'll Be There as a single. instead i would move into the EIE set. I'm Still Waiting would be a perfect follow up to Remember Me. then maybe My Place or I Just Started Livin' [[the original title for Doobee).

    Agree that timing the lp closer to the tv special would have been a good idea. i forgot about her doing some of the songs on there.

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    as for the song lineup, I really like Come Together. Winding Road is nice but 2 Beatles songs is a bit much. plus the other covers on here. So maybe i'd cut Winding and replace with Wish I Knew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    An excellent concept, which is annoying as it’s always more fun to disagree lol. Your track listing above makes for a far more commercial and cohesive sounding album. Its ironic the album was named after the only truly duff track featured on it.
    In truth the album wasn’t really needed at all. “These Thing Will Keep Me Loving You” was another sure fire hit while “Your All I Need” and “Now That There’s You both held pop potential.
    I hate to show my neuroses to the public, but I used to get embarrassed when the title song was played in front of anyone, I will never ever ever ever understand it’s inclusion in the album let alone making at the title song.

    there’s no way the sales department was going to allow just one album per year, they were used to more. Motown did the same BS with The Supremes and new ways but love stays [[a title I particularly love because it addressed the fact that there was a new group, but we are staying the course. So far there had been no liner notes or anything to acknowledge the fact that a major change has happened, so I really left the title for that reason). Anyway, that album should not have been released without a second single and in my opinion there’s not a second single on the album. It’s a wonderful album, but I got thrown under the bus because for whatever reason stones live didn’t generate enough interest. If there was just going to be one single on it, they should’ve had the follow up just downed live ready to go when it dropped. Both acts or horribly mismanaged in my opinion they both deserved a lot better.

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    now i don't mind EIE the song. it's far from the most exciting tune she ever recorded but i don't hate it.

    i do agree that it's a weak tune to be a title cut for an album. it was a relatively hip phrase at the time so that must be it

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    Going off topic, but in my head the title of JMC's second album will always be "New Ways but Jean stays".

    As for EIE, not a bad album, but other than fulfilling some perceived need to have another album product on Diana on the market at the time, I don't perceive any artistic or creative need or purpose of it.

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    I loved �� what are you doing the rest of your life.omg. great vocal.
    Should let Deke have more time instead rushing inferior product out
    Leave off come together.enough of that song.
    Hold the album back until early 71 as Surrender wasn't ready until mid 71.
    Wish I knew,.. was lovely.

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    BG wasnt sure Mountain was going to be a hit, and ordered Deke to have a follow up. he wanted it yesterday , and therefore a inferior album was released ,...instead of allowing Deke to have time to put an album together.
    there are some nice songs and vocals here but a few gems left in the vaults
    did we need another Come Together?
    i would have held this back until early 71
    i think My Place could been a single. better than Dobbe Do do be whatever mess BG thought this was going to be a hit.he was losing his touch

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    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    i think My Place could been a single. better than Dobbe Do do be whatever mess BG thought this was going to be a hit.he was losing his touch
    “Doobedood’ndoobe” was a UK only release, reaching #12 on the pop charts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    “Doobedood’ndoobe” was a UK only release, reaching #12 on the pop charts.
    I love this song. For both verses, there are two great melodies playing at the same time, one by the strings and one sung by Diana. It's this aspect that pulls me in. [This is not superficial stuff. It's clever composition and arranging.] The chorus less so, although it's hugely catchy.

    This single was also Mick Hucknall's first record purchase FWIW.
    Last edited by Sotosound; 04-22-2022 at 03:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    I love this song. For both verses, there are two great melodies playing at the same time, one by the strings and one sung by Diana. It's this aspect that pulls me in. [This is not superficial stuff. It's clever composition and arranging.] The chorus less so, although it's hugely catchy.

    This single was also Mick Hucknall's first record purchase FWIW.
    If it’s good enough for Mick it’s good enough for me. [[A mantra I always live by]]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    This single was also Mick Hucknall's first record purchase FWIW.
    So I believe. I have always thought “Shine”, the MH contribution to RHR&B held real hit potential. A wasted opportunity for sure.

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    EIE was hastily thrown together and it shows. Gordy ordered Richards into the studio when Reach Out and Touch failed to generate the hit sales Ross needed to launch her solo career. Richards had intended to do an lp on Ross and had already started some track sessions when Gordy put the project in overdrive.

    It's a situation where Gordy simply panicked. ANMHE gave him the huge hit he wanted for his star and he should simply have stuck with A&S. Instead, for budget's sake, he went ahead and released EIE and it confused record buyers who largely ignored the set.

    There's only a couple songs worthy of release on this lp in my opinion and they could have shown up on future sets. It was almost a year later before Gordy released another A&S set, the glorious Surrender lp. But by then Diana had cooled considerably, her records were stalling again, her first TV special had modest if not poor ratings and the new Supremes had overpowered her. Add to the mix she became pregnant and could not tour to promote Surrender and you have an artist who career was now in trouble.

    Lady Sings the Blues salvaged Diana Ross in late 1972.

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    great info Bayou. i just looked up the dates - Rhonda was born in August 71 and both the single and lp of Surrender were issued in July 71. makes for an interesting "what if" to go into what might have happened if she'd not had the baby at this time and if motown had had a more thoughtful approach to her career launch

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    great info Bayou. i just looked up the dates - Rhonda was born in August 71 and both the single and lp of Surrender were issued in July 71. makes for an interesting "what if" to go into what might have happened if she'd not had the baby at this time and if motown had had a more thoughtful approach to her career launch
    It is also interesting to note that all three singles off Surrender made the Pop Top 40 with pretty much no promotion work from Diana herself. And also, not looking to start any arguments, all of Diana’s pre LSTB albums still charted much higher on the Top 200 than any of the new Supremes albums with the exception of their debut and Diana’s solo debut still charted higher than that. In general, Motown did not do right by any of their female artists and groups.

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    This is another of those Groundhog Day subjects! I'll just say, as I have before, that it's a lovely, albeit minor album that I love to revisit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21 View Post
    Going off topic, but in my head the title of JMC's second album will always be "New Ways but Jean stays".

    As for EIE, not a bad album, but other than fulfilling some perceived need to have another album product on Diana on the market at the time, I don't perceive any artistic or creative need or purpose of it.

    I have always liked the album except for the title cut and initially wished that close to you wasn’t on it, probably still wish that. But even then I knew it was a hodgepodge, a crazy collection of miss matched tracks. I’m Still Waiting Seemed to be a sure fire hit to me. I also thought Doobie would hit, but I wasn’t sure that it was a good idea to release it, but there didn’t seem to be anything else on the album worthy of a single release. One single from an album simply wasn’t done back then. However, if I knew remember me was waiting in the wings by that time, I would’ve put it out just as I’m still waiting began to drop out of the top 20 that will hopefully have given Ashford and Simpson more time to rework reach out I’ll be there and fine tune surrender. Since ross wasn’t doing television, and the majority of her gigs were clubs, there was very little chance for her to work her magic on her singles. Since Motown was not able to get sufficient airplay for reach out and touch, it’s doubtful that they would’ve been more successful with the other Ashford and Simpson singles as they were.

    I think the Jackson 5 hitting so hard through the entire organization into a busy busy mess. Even Gordy’s wildest dream would not have been that those little kids would be filling Madison Square Garden six months after their first record peaked. I think they were all stretched too thin and they began to make bad decisions.

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    yep - you had the convergence of quite a few things: Diana's solo launch, the J5, moving the HQ to LA and Lady Sings the Blues. all of these took attention away from things like how motown should handle the emergence of album sales vs hodge podge, how to evolve established groups like the Sups, 4 Tops and Vandellas

    also it was around this time [[i think) that Ewart Abner took over as president of the music side of things. in the long run, it seems that wasn't a good move.

    the company was stretched thin and it showed in sales and performance

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    the chart activity for the DR and Sups 70s albums are a fascinating story

    RO - peaked at 25 and was on the charts for 19 weeks
    NW - #68 for 17 weeks, it also went up and down the charts multiple times
    Touch - 85 for 10 weeks, it too went up and down on the charts
    FJ - 54, for 15 weeks

    DR - 19, for 28 weeks. it too yoyo'd up and down the charts
    Diana! - 46 for 15 weeks
    EIE - 42 for 16 weeks
    Surrender - 56 for 14 weeks. also yoyo'd

    NW is a real conundrum. it just petered out so on the charts. it is unusual that NW and several other albums would climb the charts, hit some sort of peak, start to decline, then rebound and climb again. sometimes even surpassing that earlier peak.

    NWs entry point of 165 was low but not unusual. the sup albums either entered in the mid 100s or else considerably ABOVE 100. GIT entered at 61, Farewell at 54, RO at 37 whereas Reflections was 120, TOTT 138 Join the Tempts 200, LC 158.

    But NW just didn't make those jumps. it's possible that the market was flooded between Nov 69 and Dec 70 we had Together, Cream, GIT, GH3, Farewell, RO, Mag7, NW, Diana solo and EIE. that's a shit ton of material if you're a fan of the girls.

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    Was I'm Still Waiting even in the running as a single in the US until the fluke circumstances in the UK saw it go massive here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by florence View Post
    Was I'm Still Waiting even in the running as a single in the US until the fluke circumstances in the UK saw it go massive here?
    It was only by chance the song was ever released as a single in the UK, so I would say the answer is no.
    MotownManiac mentioned he felt “Waiting” should have been the followup To “Mountain”.
    Did anyone else view “I’m Still Waiting” as a potential mega hit at the time EIE was released or just a nice album track?.
    I absolutely adore the song.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    It was only by chance the song was ever released as a single in the UK, so I would say the answer is no.
    MotownManiac mentioned he felt “Waiting” should have been the followup To “Mountain”.
    Did anyone else view “I’m Still Waiting” as a potential mega hit at the time EIE was released or just a nice album track?.
    I absolutely adore the song.
    When I became a DR fan in 1975, this was the first album I purchased. I had no idea of the history of I’m Still Waiting, but it and My Place were my favorites. I wasn’t completely surprised when I later learned it was massive in the UK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyB View Post
    When I became a DR fan in 1975, this was the first album I purchased. I had no idea of the history of I’m Still Waiting, but it and My Place were my favorites. I wasn’t completely surprised when I later learned it was massive in the UK.
    Thank Johnny. So it obviously had something that made it stand out. I remember reading the song was thought not worthy of her when she performed it in concert during her visit to the UK in 73. The huge cheers the song received every night from the audience proved its inclusion was a wise choice.

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    "Now That There's You", "You're All I Need to Get By" and "These Things" [[will keep me loving you) are still musically alive and sounding fresh today!

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    I think the EIE would be improved if they expanded it. Oh I see they did and whad'ya know it's getting a re-release very soon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterysinger View Post
    I think the EIE would be improved if they expanded it. Oh I see they did and whad'ya know it's getting a re-release very soon!
    Hmmm? Any details?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    EIE was hastily thrown together and it shows. Gordy ordered Richards into the studio when Reach Out and Touch failed to generate the hit sales Ross needed to launch her solo career. Richards had intended to do an lp on Ross and had already started some track sessions when Gordy put the project in overdrive.

    It's a situation where Gordy simply panicked. ANMHE gave him the huge hit he wanted for his star and he should simply have stuck with A&S. Instead, for budget's sake, he went ahead and released EIE and it confused record buyers who largely ignored the set.

    There's only a couple songs worthy of release on this lp in my opinion and they could have shown up on future sets. It was almost a year later before Gordy released another A&S set, the glorious Surrender lp. But by then Diana had cooled considerably, her records were stalling again, her first TV special had modest if not poor ratings and the new Supremes had overpowered her. Add to the mix she became pregnant and could not tour to promote Surrender and you have an artist who career was now in trouble.

    Lady Sings the Blues salvaged Diana Ross in late 1972.
    I disagree with a few things. I don’t know any record buyers who were confused, those that were interested in it purchased it. I don’t believe it was largely ignored because it was the third highest charting album by Diana Ross or the Supremes during the Jean Terrell tenure. This is especially remarkable considering there was no single release fueling it’s chart ascent.

    I agree that the path Ross is solo career was taking early on was not what they intended. They also didn’t intend for her to get pregnant less than a year after she left the group. That put a big big roadblock into her ability to promote her records if they were going to do so. They also didn’t plan on getting a movie deal so quickly and having to devote every minute of spare time after the baby was born into the film. I completely believe that had the baby and or the film not happened when they did, that a lot more effort would’ve been put into getting some hip material for her. Gordy relying on Ashford and Simpson to come up with subsequent material is a big mistake because they didn’t have anything. Reach out was a mess, and surrender has its good moments but it’s hardly a classic and even if she was on TV doing it every day, it would’ve struggled in my opinion to become a hit in the states. Diana gives it everything she’s got, she even sells that corny, beneath her second verse. When the Supremes slipped in late 67, it was corrected. I believe it would’ve been corrected for her solo career. I don’t think there was any fear at Motown that she was in trouble, or they would’ve had her back in the studio trying to get a hit record out.

    I remember thinking when the special aired on Sunday night at 10 o’clock, what kind of time is that to era special that has a large audience of young people who may not be able to stay up that late. I was under the impression the ratings were OK but not great, what number did it come in at?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    the chart activity for the DR and Sups 70s albums are a fascinating story

    RO - peaked at 25 and was on the charts for 19 weeks
    NW - #68 for 17 weeks, it also went up and down the charts multiple times
    Touch - 85 for 10 weeks, it too went up and down on the charts
    FJ - 54, for 15 weeks

    DR - 19, for 28 weeks. it too yoyo'd up and down the charts
    Diana! - 46 for 15 weeks
    EIE - 42 for 16 weeks
    Surrender - 56 for 14 weeks. also yoyo'd

    NW is a real conundrum. it just petered out so on the charts. it is unusual that NW and several other albums would climb the charts, hit some sort of peak, start to decline, then rebound and climb again. sometimes even surpassing that earlier peak.

    NWs entry point of 165 was low but not unusual. the sup albums either entered in the mid 100s or else considerably ABOVE 100. GIT entered at 61, Farewell at 54, RO at 37 whereas Reflections was 120, TOTT 138 Join the Tempts 200, LC 158.

    But NW just didn't make those jumps. it's possible that the market was flooded between Nov 69 and Dec 70 we had Together, Cream, GIT, GH3, Farewell, RO, Mag7, NW, Diana solo and EIE. that's a shit ton of material if you're a fan of the girls.
    I don’t think it was a competition thing, because right on didn’t have any trouble doing well and mag seven didn’t generate enough sales to offset anything. Every album has a chance to succeed on its own merits just by word-of-mouth. Like the still waters album, it has a dog successful single on it but it went into the stratosphere compared to their other albums recently. That’s word of mouth. The Diana Album was already a huge hit before upside down even got released. Word of mouth. Many albums catch on this way. I have no explanation why new Ways did so poorly, I liked it. But when people‘s friends heard it they didn’t run out and buy it, which Has to be the reason why people stayed away from magnificent seven in droves. I believe that right on did well for several reasons, not the least of which being the superb lead single it contained. People wanted to hear more like that. I think with many of those that purchased that album decided is that they may like a song here or there, but not invested enough in the group to plunk down the hard earned cash for an album. Like ross, they needed a big slam dunk hit and they never got one. And let’s face it, a number of fans bailed because Diana wasn’t there anymore. If I was Gordy and not getting the material I needed, I would’ve brought an outside producers for both acts. I think Nathan Jones was the right track for them to go in, even though it need a little work it was unique and special and they could’ve had an identity being a little more cutting edge. I think they needed some sort of identity. He should have brought in gamble and half, or made nice with Holland Dozier Holland, Frank Wilson was great but he wasn’t prolific. So many acts declined at Motown because of the lack of material, it’s often blamed on the act when they were starving for a hit. Band of Gold would’ve been a great hit for Diana or the Supremes or Martha, anyone would’ve had a hit with that. That didn’t have to be an Invictus record. I just don’t think he planned very well. Even making Someday a Supremes record I think was a mistake . Sure fire number ones are not that easy to come by.
    Last edited by TheMotownManiac; 04-25-2022 at 07:07 AM.

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    Regardless of chart position and as Mary Wilson said, the albums after Diana left just didn’t sell and that was very damaging because the money stopped flowing in and then the concert bookings and promotion slowed. Right On was a very good album and Touch was pretty good but for whatever reason, the sales just weren’t there

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    I've always loved the 'Everything' album, although I agree the title song is a little much and really needed better lyrics. But to me, the debut album is too much of a "one note" album, and I think suffers from too many songs that sound alike. To me several tracks on the album, "Can't it Wait Until Tomorrow," "Where There Was Darkness," and "Dark Side of the World," just seem like reworkings of the same song structure and melody.

    I think Gordy was trying too hard to make a Barbra Streisand album. Everything about the debut album seems to want to remind you how important it is. I find it dull.

    I agree timing of the "Everything" release didn't make any sense, but I still enjoy it is an album which contains a lot of versatility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I don’t think it was a competition thing, because right on didn’t have any trouble doing well and mag seven didn’t generate enough sales to offset anything. Every album has a chance to succeed on its own merits just by word-of-mouth. Like the still waters album, it has a dog successful single on it but it went into the stratosphere compared to their other albums recently. That’s word of mouth. The Diana Album was already a huge hit before upside down even got released. Where of mouth. Many albums catch on this way. I have no explanation why new Waze did so poorly, I liked it. But when people‘s friends heard it they didn’t run out and buy it, which Has to be the reason why people stayed away from magnificent seven in droves. I believe that right on did well for several reasons, not the least of which being the superb lead single it contained. People wanted to hear more like that. I think with many of those that purchased that album decided is that they may like a song here or there, but not invested enough in the group to plunk down the hard earned cash for an album. Like ross, they needed a big slam dunk hit and they never got one. And let’s face it, a number of fans bailed because Diana wasn’t there anymore. If I was Gordy and not getting the material I needed, I would’ve brought an outside producers for both acts. I think Nathan Jones was the right track for them to go in, even though I need a little work it was unique and special and they could’ve had an identity being a little more cutting edge. I think they needed some sort of identity. He should have brought in gamble and half, or made nice with Holland Dozier Holland, Frank Wilson was great but he wasn’t prolific. So many acts declined at Motown because of the lack of material, it’s often blamed on the act when they were starving for a hit. Band of Gold would’ve been a great hit for Diana or the Supremes or Martha, anyone would’ve had a hit with that. That didn’t have to be an Invictus record. I just don’t think he planned very well. Even making some de Supremes record I think was a mistake . Sure fire number ones are not that easy to come by.
    if the success of Ladder lead to customers being curious about the RO album, then the same [[or even more so) should have been said about Stoned Love and NW. SL outperformed Ladder, was a massive hit and should have lead people to the album.

    my point about the competition is so much that people were confused but that there was just too many things to choose from and they diluted one another. let's say you invited me to your bday party and i decided to buy you a Supremes album as a present since i know you're a fan. I go to the store and there are 10 different albums all from the last year. that's a ton to pick from.

    In addition, every marketing department has a finite amount of $ to spend. The Supremes were a top act but even with them there's a limit of both time and money. which records go in print ads? which records get outdoor space such as billboards? which albums do you record radio spots for? which records do the PR team work with the top station programmers to incorporate into their playlists?

    and that last point is another one we should consider, especially with the motown approach of releases pabulum. the teen and youth markets had exploded in the late sixties in a way unlike most previous generations. radio stations were tuning into [[pun intended lol) what trends were hip and cool with the young adults, with college kids. frankly the supremes had mostly fallen out with this group prior to the split of DR and the Sups. but things like EIE and Mag 7 being rushed out without a lot of effort or care simply reinforced the corporate greed approach of motown and further eroded the willingness of radio stations to really support them

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    I've always loved the 'Everything' album, although I agree the title song is a little much and really needed better lyrics. But to me, the debut album is too much of a "one note" album, and I think suffers from too many songs that sound alike. To me several tracks on the album, "Can't it Wait Until Tomorrow," "Where There Was Darkness," and "Dark Side of the World," just seem like reworkings of the same song structure and melody.

    I think Gordy was trying too hard to make a Barbra Streisand album. Everything about the debut album seems to want to remind you how important it is. I find it dull.

    I agree timing of the "Everything" release didn't make any sense, but I still enjoy it is an album which contains a lot of versatility.
    I disagree. The debut album benefits from having the brilliant team of A & S writing and producing virtually all the songs. It was more about making quality, adult orientated music as opposed to stick a bit of everything on and hope something sticks. It’s a far more cohesive sounding album then EIE, and along with ‘Surrender’ will always be considered one of her best. For some, the light and bright EIE album might have made for a welcome change of pace, but it inevitably pales when compared to the sheer quality of the two A & S produced albums.
    IMO of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    if the success of Ladder lead to customers being curious about the RO album, then the same [[or even more so) should have been said about Stoned Love and NW. SL outperformed Ladder, was a massive hit and should have lead people to the album.

    my point about the competition is so much that people were confused but that there was just too many things to choose from and they diluted one another. let's say you invited me to your bday party and i decided to buy you a Supremes album as a present since i know you're a fan. I go to the store and there are 10 different albums all from the last year. that's a ton to pick from.

    In addition, every marketing department has a finite amount of $ to spend. The Supremes were a top act but even with them there's a limit of both time and money. which records go in print ads? which records get outdoor space such as billboards? which albums do you record radio spots for? which records do the PR team work with the top station programmers to incorporate into their playlists?

    and that last point is another one we should consider, especially with the motown approach of releases pabulum. the teen and youth markets had exploded in the late sixties in a way unlike most previous generations. radio stations were tuning into [[pun intended lol) what trends were hip and cool with the young adults, with college kids. frankly the supremes had mostly fallen out with this group prior to the split of DR and the Sups. but things like EIE and Mag 7 being rushed out without a lot of effort or care simply reinforced the corporate greed approach of motown and further eroded the willingness of radio stations to really support them
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    if the success of Ladder lead to customers being curious about the RO album, then the same [[or even more so) should have been said about Stoned Love and NW. SL outperformed Ladder, was a massive hit and should have lead people to the album.

    my point about the competition is so much that people were confused but that there was just too many things to choose from and they diluted one another. let's say you invited me to your bday party and i decided to buy you a Supremes album as a present since i know you're a fan. I go to the store and there are 10 different albums all from the last year. that's a ton to pick from.

    In addition, every marketing department has a finite amount of $ to spend. The Supremes were a top act but even with them there's a limit of both time and money. which records go in print ads? which records get outdoor space such as billboards? which albums do you record radio spots for? which records do the PR team work with the top station programmers to incorporate into their playlists?

    and that last point is another one we should consider, especially with the motown approach of releases pabulum. the teen and youth markets had exploded in the late sixties in a way unlike most previous generations. radio stations were tuning into [[pun intended lol) what trends were hip and cool with the young adults, with college kids. frankly the supremes had mostly fallen out with this group prior to the split of DR and the Sups. but things like EIE and Mag 7 being rushed out without a lot of effort or care simply reinforced the corporate greed approach of motown and further eroded the willingness of radio stations to really support them
    normally I agree with you on so many things, but in this case I think it is clearly an indication the public was not buying into the new group. Many of the Supremes fans were still there, but they were not finding a new audience in any significant numbers. There should be a basic amount of album sales that you can count on for any specific act, the wretched sales for new ways compared to expectations was just the beginning of a free fall. Having a huge hit record is the best promotion any album could ever ever ask for , people bought the single but they weren’t invested enough to buy the album. And radio was supporting the Supremes big time. When they were serviced with the long version of Stoned love, it was getting a fair amount of play. Ditto River deep, So I don’t think radio had any problem with Motown’s greed. All they really care about are ratings. Nothing else. Which is why playlists are so so tight.

    I agree with you about the youth market changing in the late 60s. Had ross stayed with the group, I am confident the Supremes would’ve gone in new directions. They were already experimenting with this while ross was still with the group.

    I think that most people, when buying something for a birthday party, would buy the newest album with the biggest hit on it. I don’t think anybody would choose a Supremes album with diana ross on it in late 1970 because it was already old. And the diehards were going to buy both if they wanted both regardless of how much they cost. In late 68, the Supremes had three albums in the top 20, and two in the top three! - plus Talk of the town.

    to me, the only explanation is lack of interest in the group. And they were not alone. I’m not impressed at all with the number 19 showing for Ross‘s debut album. With a gigantic huge hit like ain’t no Mountain high enough, if the general public was really behind her that album would’ve climbed higher. That’s only six chart points higher than right on, and ross’ first two singles far out performed the Supremes first two singles in combined chart points - because of mountain. However, her strength of core audience was stronger than the Supremes due to the showing of everything and the Diana TV soundtrack coming in at 42 and 44 no hit singles. And that Diana album performed well considering there was so much cornball schtick on it. How many times can you listen to Danny Thomas, Bill Cosby, and the Jackson 5 sing songs you already had on 45? It was a great package though.

    someday we’ll be together is another example, one would think with a giant hit on it that cream of the crop would’ve charted higher, but it really did have competition with greatest hits volume three. But we also have to take into consideration that this album followed the release of two dismal, ridiculous slapdash a Albums like together and let the sunshine in. I’m surprised anybody by The Supremes album after that. And I think cream of the crop is a pretty decent album. Someone has to be invested to spend that huge amount of money, they don’t want to get burned again like they had in the past.

    I will end my rant with this: Motown was not helping their artists with the shitty album covers they were putting out time and time and time again. For every cloud nine album cover, there are 10 if I were your woman or together covers. Barbra Streisand the Beatles Janis Joplin Carole King their album covers were pieces of art, Motown was taking its number one prestige act and putting publicity photos blown up on the cover of albums. There were some good ones, but most of them were an embarrassment.

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    love your posts Maniac - always super interesting and insightful

    it might be that we're both saying the same thing, just in different ways. my big gripe with motown and the 70s Sups isn't that they totally abandoned the girls on Day 1 [[i don't think they did that at all). it was that the management of the group totally failed them - the complete lack of an up to date strategy for the group was missing.

    you're right - the reason NW failed to chart is that it failed to gain the critical sales numbers to give it those big chart jumps. but the question is WHY. there must have been a reason or reasons as to why people weren't buying the albums when the group was still selling significant singles, steadily on tv and sold out concerts. Some people have said the group was declining since 1967 and i think that is accurate. starting with Reflections you had albums, for the most part, stuck in the lower teens on the charts. then in 68 and 69, the albums are stuck in the lower 30s. While RO was a resurgence a bit possibly due to the excitement of the new grouping, NW and Touch continued the decline. now down in the 60s and 70s on the charts. it's like a long slow bleed.

    part of this is the fact, as you mention, that motown was slow to realize albums were now important. I can excuse them in 67 of missing out on this. In May 66 you had the groundbreaking Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys and then in May of 67 is Sgt Pepper. so in 67 and even into 68 you could maybe excuse their lack of adapting with the albums. but by 70 things should have changed.

    I think the DR albums greatly underperformed. the debut album bobbled around for weeks never really doing much. yes it did finally creep into the Top 20 but barely. and IMO that was due to rampant pushing by motown because they HAD to have a successful solo launch. but the rest of Diana's, while doing better than the sups, really didn't do any better than the later DRATS albums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I disagree. The debut album benefits from having the brilliant team of A & S writing and producing virtually all the songs. It was more about making quality, adult orientated music as opposed to stick a bit of everything on and hope something sticks. It’s a far more cohesive sounding album then EIE, and along with ‘Surrender’ will always be considered one of her best. For some, the light and bright EIE album might have made for a welcome change of pace, but it inevitably pales when compared to the sheer quality of the two A & S produced albums.
    IMO of course.
    I agree with you on all your points except for some reason I come to a different conclusion. Certainly the debut album is cohesive and much more so than the second album. Perhaps it is just the overall production by Ashford and Simpson that leaves me somewhat cold. I am not sure if they did entire albums for any other Motown artists around that time. I think they shared production duties with other persons on the Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell albums except maybe the third one which has its own questionable history. Honestly I’m not all that familiar with even their work together as singers. Absolutely there’s no doubt they produce brilliant singles but maybe it’s when they’re in charge of a whole album that for some reason their effort just fails to move me. Perhaps not surprisingly, the album “Surrender” is also one of my least favorites from Diane’s first Motown period. Obviously I’m in the minority as regards my opinion on both of these two albums.

    But I appreciate your sharing your opinion and thanks for not attacking me for mine! I probably shouldn’t have to say that but somehow I felt like I had to!
    Last edited by kenneth; 04-25-2022 at 10:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    I agree with you on all your points except for some reason I come to a different conclusion. Certainly the debut album is cohesive and much more so than the second album. Perhaps it is just the overall production by Ashford and Simpson that leaves me somewhat cold. I am not sure if they did entire albums for any other Motown artists around that time. I think they shared production duties with other persons on the Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell albums except maybe the third one which has its own questionable history. Honestly I’m not all that familiar with even their work together as singers. Absolutely there’s no doubt they produce brilliant singles but maybe it’s when they’re in charge of a whole album that for some reason their effort just fails to move me. Perhaps not surprisingly, the album “Surrender” is also one of my least favorites from Diane’s first Motown period. Obviously I’m in the minority as regards my opinion on both of these two albums.

    But I appreciate your sharing your opinion and thanks for not attacking me for mine! I probably shouldn’t have to say that but somehow I felt like I had to!
    Why on earth would i ever think of attacking you Kenneth lol. It’s great we all share different opinions, even if yours is wrong. [[Joke)
    Diana’s recording career has been so incredibly diverse, it’s no wonder we all have our own individual faves. Some are not really into the jazz vibe while others deem the rca years her very best work. Different strokes for different folks.
    As for me, i consider Dianas weakest albums to be the ones where you have a mixed bag of songs thrown together with no particular theme. Diana Ross 76 being the exception. I think it fair to say that even today, her three A&S albums are still considered amongst the most cohesive and creative recordings of her solo career.
    Last edited by Ollie9; 04-25-2022 at 01:41 PM.

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    i just relistened to Surrender this weekend. i was struck a bit by the darker tone to the album. and not just with the song topics but also the general sound of the songs. they're heavier. there's a sadness, a bit of melancholy

    compare that to The Boss which has a more joyous sound overall. take the song Ain't Been Licked. clearly the song focuses on love lost but on the positive side. not letting that keep you pinned down. and the track and the vocals reflect this.

    on both Diana sings with all her might. but i think the positive elements on The Boss help to elevate it above Surrender. still both are excellent works

    compare both of these albums with Baby It's Me. while not absolute, i do think Diana sounds her best with there's a grandness so her song. the big soap opera heart wrenching of the Masser productions, the glory of the gospel-infused The Boss, the mega R&B sound on DR 70 and Surrender. to me BIM is just not quite capturing DR. it almost goes to this peak level at times but seems a bit timid, never quite getting there and therefore never quite fulfilling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Why on earth would i ever think of attacking you Kenneth lol. It’s great we all share different opinions, even if yours is wrong. [[Joke)
    Diana’s recording career has been so incredibly diverse, it’s no wonder we all have our own individual faves. Some are not really into the jazz vibe while others deem the rca years her very best work. Different strokes for different folks.
    As for me, i consider Dianas weakest albums to be the ones where you have a mixed bag of songs thrown together with no particular theme. Diana Ross 76 being the exception. I think it fair to say that even today, her three A&S albums are still considered amongst the most cohesive and creative recordings of her solo career.
    Actually, that reminded me that I love the album “The Boss.” I’d forgotten that one was also produced by A&S.

    My favorite is “To Love Again” because of the Michael Masser contributions.

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    Actually, that reminded me that I love the album “The Boss.” I’d forgotten that one was also produced by A&S.

    My favorite is “To Love Again” because of the Michael Masser contributions.

    Thanks!
    I never thought the themed Masser tribute a particularly good idea for the time. A tv advertised 20 Golden Greats album had been a massive seller in late 79, so it was a little to soon to be featuring the same songs yet again. Had the album been released later in the year, to include “Endless Love”, “Dreaming Of You” and selected album cuts such as “Come In From The Rain” etc it might have gone top ten.
    I love the expanded version.

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    Motown really did fixate on singles, rather than albums and it took some time before they made their albums more than just singles with the rest being "filler". As a preteen in 1970-1, there were a huge amount of albums coming out from both Ross and the Supremes. I saved and bought all of them. In my area, Everything is Everything was not heavily promoted so I was surprised to see this album at KMart when I did. I think it was similar in structure to New Ways. It had a cover that was in some ways dated in that it would have been better in the 60's. Coming after the stark image on her debut and the close up on Surrender, the EIE cover seemed less eye catching even though she was quite beautiful in that gorgeous outfit. The LP didn't seem cohesive and had a number of cover songs and filler. Her debut and Surrender seemed far more cohesive with a sense of uniformity in quality and structure. New Ways was my favorite back then but the cover and type on the LP looked like something from a few years before. I loved their cover songs because they seemed to make them their own and made them sound fresh. The other songs were all good and didn't seem like filler. Jean had a great voice, but unlike RO her voice started to be a little more nasal on NW and she didn't seem to click with audiences. Originally it was three members who were different personalities that all clicked to some degree individually with the public. When Cindy came in, she also managed to blend well visually and vocally with Mary. Both of them caught your eye with Ross but with Terrell they caught your attention visually more than Jean did. i think even if they kept the New Ways title I agree with Mary that the cover should have been the one in the simple dark turtlenecks with a completely different type. But it was true, there was so much out there that for Christmas my parents didn't know which was the new album I really wanted. The cover for the Magnificent 7? Don't get me started on that one-it made New Ways look like artwork. The followup had a better cover but the first had better songs. It was too much being put out even for Ross, without a seemingly structured plan. It was almost as if they said let's put out as much product as we can and see what sticks. Granted, I bought them all at the time and was excited to get them but this is just a reflection on maybe what should have been.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNSUN View Post
    "Now That There's You", "You're All I Need to Get By" and "These Things" [[will keep me loving you) are still musically alive and sounding fresh today!
    Diana’s early 70’s albums were chock full of potential hit singles. After the massive success of “Mountain” EIE might have been put on ice and some of the stronger tracks used to complete Last Time I Saw Him”. Who know, we might have ended up with yet another classic album.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Motown really did fixate on singles, rather than albums and it took some time before they made their albums more than just singles with the rest being "filler". As a preteen in 1970-1, there were a huge amount of albums coming out from both Ross and the Supremes. I saved and bought all of them. In my area, Everything is Everything was not heavily promoted so I was surprised to see this album at KMart when I did. I think it was similar in structure to New Ways. It had a cover that was in some ways dated in that it would have been better in the 60's. Coming after the stark image on her debut and the close up on Surrender, the EIE cover seemed less eye catching even though she was quite beautiful in that gorgeous outfit. The LP didn't seem cohesive and had a number of cover songs and filler. Her debut and Surrender seemed far more cohesive with a sense of uniformity in quality and structure. New Ways was my favorite back then but the cover and type on the LP looked like something from a few years before. I loved their cover songs because they seemed to make them their own and made them sound fresh. The other songs were all good and didn't seem like filler. Jean had a great voice, but unlike RO her voice started to be a little more nasal on NW and she didn't seem to click with audiences. Originally it was three members who were different personalities that all clicked to some degree individually with the public. When Cindy came in, she also managed to blend well visually and vocally with Mary. Both of them caught your eye with Ross but with Terrell they caught your attention visually more than Jean did. i think even if they kept the New Ways title I agree with Mary that the cover should have been the one in the simple dark turtlenecks with a completely different type. But it was true, there was so much out there that for Christmas my parents didn't know which was the new album I really wanted. The cover for the Magnificent 7? Don't get me started on that one-it made New Ways look like artwork. The followup had a better cover but the first had better songs. It was too much being put out even for Ross, without a seemingly structured plan. It was almost as if they said let's put out as much product as we can and see what sticks. Granted, I bought them all at the time and was excited to get them but this is just a reflection on maybe what should have been.
    This all sounds very exciting ! Great time to be invested as a fan supporting both as they splintered and developed. I bet both Mary and Diana were up to their eyeballs but loving every minute of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I hate to show my neuroses to the public, but I used to get embarrassed when the title song was played in front of anyone, I will never ever ever ever understand it’s inclusion in the album let alone making at the title song.

    there’s no way the sales department was going to allow just one album per year, they were used to more. Motown did the same BS with The Supremes and new ways but love stays [[a title I particularly love because it addressed the fact that there was a new group, but we are staying the course. So far there had been no liner notes or anything to acknowledge the fact that a major change has happened, so I really left the title for that reason). Anyway, that album should not have been released without a second single and in my opinion there’s not a second single on the album. It’s a wonderful album, but I got thrown under the bus because for whatever reason stones live didn’t generate enough interest. If there was just going to be one single on it, they should’ve had the follow up just downed live ready to go when it dropped. Both acts or horribly mismanaged in my opinion they both deserved a lot better.
    I've always thought that the titles of the first two Supremes albums should have been swapped; the debut being "New Ways but Love Stays" referring to Jean joining [[new ways) and the Supremes continuing [[but love stays). With the success of "Up the Ladder", "RIGHT ON!" seems more appropriate?

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    to me both NW and RO imply the same thing. I realize you can only use song titles so often with titling an album. for the debut album, i think using either NW or RO works. frankly i like RO better but just personal preference

    when you have a song as massive as SL and you're still building this new "New Supremes" brand, it was idiotic to not use the song title. i think even if the only change made for the album was the title, it would have helped. wouldn't have solved all of the problems with the album but i def think the title of Stoned Love would have drawn consumer attention to it among the zillions of other Sups albums in the bin at the store and people would have picked it up. it could have at least gone into the 20s or 30s on the chart.

    for EIE, maybe using one of the poses where Diana isn't quite so broadly smiling. a shot that is a bit more pensive or something. as is, it's just a bit too cheesy and glam.

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    I agree, the cover photo on "Everything" is somewhat...well...cheesy...and not in a good way.

    I always liked the back cover photo though.

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    Last edited by kenneth; 04-26-2022 at 07:16 PM.

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    I think the only surefire hit, and ‘classic’, on Everything Is Everything is "I'm Still Waiting". I think the difference between EIE and the debut is not only the lack of cohesion, but it’s just a slightly weaker set of original songs [and also more covers].

    Having said that, I like and enjoy "My Place", and Diana's versions of "[They Long To Be] Close To You" and "I Love You [Call Me]" are lovely. And, I even like "Doobe" but it’s really quite a ridiculous premise to build a song, chorus, and title around.
    Last edited by TomatoTom123; 04-26-2022 at 08:14 PM.

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