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    Diana '68 Solo 'My Man'

    Can anyone identify where this clip originated?


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    Wasn't it a Bob Hope special?

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    Here it is in color February 17, 1969

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    i believe this was part of their promotional work for the FG album. even though DRATS didn't include My Man on the album, it was in the film and associated with Fanny. the planned promotional work for the album [[that we know of so far) includes:

    *medley on Sullivan
    *Bob Hope special where they did Sam you made the pants too long and Coronet Man as a group and My Man as a solo for DR
    *planned medley on tcb

    wonder if they incorporated any of the content into their stage act? at least in the fall of 68?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    wonder if they incorporated any of the content into their stage act? at least in the fall of 68?
    Other than MY MAN [[which as you mentioned wasn't on the album), I don't think so. Considering the album flopped, maybe it wasn't worth paying for musical arrangements to put it into the act.

    But a slot on a tv show like Bob Hope's couldn't hurt if for nothing else, it showed their versatility.

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    well they'd already invested in the musical charts for Sullivan and TCB. My guess is they were anticipating this being a huge success and were ready to dive into promoting it.

    seems like the TCB stuff was never finished - wonder if that was more because they knew they were already in excess of content needed for the final broadcast rather than the flopping album. the taping for TCB was done in August and the album had only just been released

    whereas maybe by the time Sullivan came around, they figured "yikes - we better try another push of this thing and generate some sales" since that was late Sept that they did the performance. and probably by then they saw that sales are anemic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    well they'd already invested in the musical charts for Sullivan and TCB. My guess is they were anticipating this being a huge success and were ready to dive into promoting it.

    seems like the TCB stuff was never finished - wonder if that was more because they knew they were already in excess of content needed for the final broadcast rather than the flopping album. the taping for TCB was done in August and the album had only just been released

    whereas maybe by the time Sullivan came around, they figured "yikes - we better try another push of this thing and generate some sales" since that was late Sept that they did the performance. and probably by then they saw that sales are anemic.
    Like most tv specials, they probably filmed more than they would need. At the time of TCB's taping, FG was still new so they probably just didn't get around to finishing the number. If it had been completed and included in the special, it might have helped the FG album as TCB did very well in the ratings.

    But where in the show would they have placed it? It would be nice to know if there were more outtakes. Did the Tempts get a solo production number as well?
    Last edited by reese; 03-16-2022 at 07:14 PM.

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    I saw Diana Ross sing My Man in either the summer of '67 or '69. I know the theater where I saw her sing it but can't remember which year. She said that it was a new song that she was working on. She was alone on the stage and sat either at the edge of the stage or on a small stool. She also used the sheet music to familiarize herself with the lyrics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnjeb View Post
    I saw Diana Ross sing My Man in either the summer of '67 or '69. I know the theater where I saw her sing it but can't remember which year. She said that it was a new song that she was working on. She was alone on the stage and sat either at the edge of the stage or on a small stool. She also used the sheet music to familiarize herself with the lyrics.
    More than likely it was 1969. It was around that time that Jay Weston saw her perform it at the Waldorf and thought she'd be great as Billie Holiday in his upcoming film.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Like most tv specials, they probably filmed more than they would need. At the time of TCB's taping, FG was still new so they probably just didn't get around to finishing the number. If it had been completed and included in the special, it might have helped the FG album as TCB did very well in the ratings.

    But where in the show would they have placed it? It would be nice to know if there were more outtakes. Did the Tempts get a solo production number as well?
    i agree about taping more than they needed. similar to how gordy would have them record more than the necessary number of tracks for an album and pick and choose the best.

    i have no evidence or idea but i wonder if the Afro Vogue dance idea came up a little later? maybe that would have been the spot? or maybe they were thinking "we'll tape FG and Afro and see which turns out the best" clearly the strategy was to provide a showcase for Diana and if a solo segment of hers came out strong, it would definitely trump something with the group

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    More than likely it was 1969. It was around that time that Jay Weston saw her perform it at the Waldorf and thought she'd be great as Billie Holiday in his upcoming film.
    i agree that odds are its 69. i think in 67 they weren't quite to the point of having Diana doing a full solo number in the act. regardless of the song. they were most likely still doing the Copa 67 show at this time

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i agree about taping more than they needed. similar to how gordy would have them record more than the necessary number of tracks for an album and pick and choose the best.

    i have no evidence or idea but i wonder if the Afro Vogue dance idea came up a little later? maybe that would have been the spot? or maybe they were thinking "we'll tape FG and Afro and see which turns out the best" clearly the strategy was to provide a showcase for Diana and if a solo segment of hers came out strong, it would definitely trump something with the group
    I'm positive the Afro Vogue segment was planned well ahead just as the other numbers. You have to consider the arrangements, costumes, choreography, Diana's photo segments, etc. all had to be worked on ahead of time so it was ready when they began to film for those 3 days. They filmed more than they could fit into the special. The "I'm The Greatest Star" segment would have been a feature for the girls, but as George and Andy pointed out the tape with the music ran out so there was no way they could complete the number while they were filming it. It was probably decided right there as they were filming it that it couldn't be used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsupremes View Post
    I'm positive the Afro Vogue segment was planned well ahead just as the other numbers. You have to consider the arrangements, costumes, choreography, Diana's photo segments, etc. all had to be worked on ahead of time so it was ready when they began to film for those 3 days. They filmed more than they could fit into the special. The "I'm The Greatest Star" segment would have been a feature for the girls, but as George and Andy pointed out the tape with the music ran out so there was no way they could complete the number while they were filming it. It was probably decided right there as they were filming it that it couldn't be used.
    yeah you're right - they had that special outlined with all the segments well ahead of time

    what of TCB was recorded live and what was pre-recorded? there's the story in Randy's book about a tift between DMC during the Symphony performance and Diana saying the girls were flat, but Cindy saying their vocals were pre-recorded. But the orchestra is playing along so I was under the impression they were singing that segment live - all of them. But then you have the segments w/o the orchestra - the modern hits segment, Diana's solo for Somewhere [[except for the ending), the FG segment. My thought is those were pre-recorded vocals and applause added in?

    which that makes the incomplete FG tape so odd

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    Thanks, all, for identifying this and for the informative comments. I had not seen this cliip before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i agree about taping more than they needed. similar to how gordy would have them record more than the necessary number of tracks for an album and pick and choose the best.

    i have no evidence or idea but i wonder if the Afro Vogue dance idea came up a little later? maybe that would have been the spot? or maybe they were thinking "we'll tape FG and Afro and see which turns out the best" clearly the strategy was to provide a showcase for Diana and if a solo segment of hers came out strong, it would definitely trump something with the group
    I think Afro Vogue was filmed ahead of time. In Mary’s book she talks about being on the set for Afro Vogue and having pictures of her plastered all over the set but we know that isn’t true so, I believe that they had it set from the beginning because it was a statement that they wanted to make.

    I would guess that the funny girl segment would have replaced with a song in my heart and without a song and if they needed more time perhaps I hear a Symphony. Personally, I don’t care for the album or the arrangements or what they did on it Ed sullivan with it, so I think it’s lucky for everyone that it did not make it onto the special for whatever reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I think Afro Vogue was filmed ahead of time. In Mary’s book she talks about being on the set for Afro Vogue and having pictures of her plastered all over the set but we know that isn’t true
    Do we know that? Because I just read that part in Mary's book and nothing about it seems far from true with what we know was broadcast. Mary says the background was made up of photos of Diana. We do know that photos of Diana in African wardrobe were used in the telecast. Was the original idea for the photos to be the backdrop but was then dropped after rehearsal? Or were the photos positioned on the soundstage and recorded for their parts in the telecast? When Mary wrote her book TCB hadn't aired in nearly 20 years, so her memory could be fuzzy. But I wouldn't call it an "untruth" that Mary remembered the photos as she watched the filming [[or the rehearsal) just because it didn't make it onto the final broadcast.

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    Diana performed this on a Bob Hope special in early 1969. Afterward Hope came out and did a medley of songs with her mixing humor. That same medley was done verbatim four years later when Jean, Mary and Lynda did his special. The three ladies broke up Diana's solos among themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    That same medley was done verbatim four years later when Jean, Mary and Lynda did his special. The three ladies broke up Diana's solos among themselves.
    I don't believe I've ever seen this. Is this footage circulating around? Would be great to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I don't believe I've ever seen this. Is this footage circulating around? Would be great to see.

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    Not the best copy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Do we know that? Because I just read that part in Mary's book and nothing about it seems far from true with what we know was broadcast. Mary says the background was made up of photos of Diana. We do know that photos of Diana in African wardrobe were used in the telecast. Was the original idea for the photos to be the backdrop but was then dropped after rehearsal? Or were the photos positioned on the soundstage and recorded for their parts in the telecast? When Mary wrote her book TCB hadn't aired in nearly 20 years, so her memory could be fuzzy. But I wouldn't call it an "untruth" that Mary remembered the photos as she watched the filming [[or the rehearsal) just because it didn't make it onto the final broadcast.
    I would not stick my life on it, however, I though it is possible that they constructed a set for Afro vogue that they did not use and went with a plain background instead to keep the focus on Diana, I don’t think so. Visually it would be very distracting And I don’t think goes with the rest of the visual concept of the show, but certainly it’s possible. It’s also possible that she saw pictures on a desk and 20 years later remembered them being plastered all over the walls. It’s also possible she made this story up, like others in the book, to suggest yet another indignity that she suffered through. If she can remember that people brought a sandwich back to Eddie Kendricks during rehearsal, I think she could remember a set plastered with photos of just Diana, but possible, it is. Mary’s book is full of one-sided implications and exaggerations to construct her narrative and I believe this is an example, but I could be wrong. Personally, I don’t think Mary was even there when they shot Afro vogue. It might’ve taken an entire day to shoot it with the special flooring the special backgrounds all the costume changes and the choreography to be taught and shot. I’ve never heard of or read an account of anyone watching this segment being shot that I can recall anyway. I’ve personally spoken to Mary Cindy and Otis about TCB, none of them mentioned the segment at all, and I think it would’ve come up since other things did, but it’s possible. Eddie went out of his way, in an interview after the book came out, to correct the narrative of the sandwich story.

    when Mary is writing about TCB she mentions the fact that she experienced some unhappiness that they cut Mas Que Nada that she and Cindy shot with some of the Temptations. 20 years later she still didn’t seem pleased. One might have assumed that the reason why she feels it was cut was because Diana was not in it. She questioned, “why bother to learn it if we’re not going to use it? “. A year later, on G.I. T, Diana Mary and Cindy shot the medley with summertime, it was not used either. It also, if I recall, wasn’t mentioned. That’s the apparent narrative to me, and many others but, there’s no actual proof.
    Last edited by TheMotownManiac; 03-17-2022 at 07:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post


    Not the best copy.
    Thanks Reese! I have seen this before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I would not stick my life on it, however, I though it is possible that they constructed a set for Afro vogue that they did not use and went with a plain background instead to keep the focus on Diana, I don’t think so. Visually it would be very distracting And I don’t think goes with the rest of the visual concept of the show, but certainly it’s possible. It’s also possible that she saw pictures on a desk and 20 years later remembered them being plastered all over the walls. It’s also possible she made this story up, like others in the book, to suggest yet another indignity that she suffered through. If she can remember that people brought a sandwich back to Eddie Kendricks during rehearsal, I think she could remember a set plastered with photos of just Diana, but possible, it is. Mary’s book is full of one-sided implications and exaggerations to construct her narrative and I believe this is an example, but I could be wrong. Personally, I don’t think Mary was even there when they shot Afro vogue. It might’ve taken an entire day to shoot it with the special flooring the special backgrounds all the costume changes and the choreography to be taught and shot. I’ve never heard of or read an account of anyone watching this segment being shot that I can recall anyway. I’ve personally spoken to Mary Cindy and Otis about TCB, none of them mentioned the segment at all, and I think it would’ve come up since other things did, but it’s possible. Eddie went out of his way, in an interview after the book came out, to correct the narrative of the sandwich story.

    when Mary is writing about TCB she mentions the fact that she experienced some unhappiness that they cut Mas Que Nada that she and Cindy shot with some of the Temptations. 20 years later she still didn’t seem pleased. One might have assumed that the reason why she feels it was cut was because Diana was not in it. She questioned, “why bother to learn it if we’re not going to use it? “. A year later, on G.I. T, Diana Mary and Cindy shot the medley with summertime, it was not used either. It also, if I recall, wasn’t mentioned. That’s the apparent narrative to me, and many others but, there’s no actual proof.
    I guess my issue is- and by issue I mean my desire to understand- is why mention anything about it being true or false? It's not like Mary said she watched it and the background was rainbows and leprechauns, shooting stars and purple horseshoes. She said the background had photos of Diana. I don't see what's so unbelievable about it. We know photos were taken, likely dozens upon dozens, judging by the shots used in the telecast, and it's not a stretch to think that the photos were present during the shooting. I'm not well versed on the technology of the time, so I have to wonder if the photographs were present and filmed or if the technology of the time allowed for interspersing the film with the photos? I also suspect that the entire program was shot in the scheduled time allotted from the studio and "AV" would almost surely have been taped when everything else was taped, and Mary was likely present.

    It just seems to me like the oddest thing to accuse Mary of lying about at this time.

    Yes, Mary's book[[s) were one sided, as most, if not all, autobiographies are. It was her side of the story. Was she supposed to tell it from anybody else's perspective? And I know there were times that the narrative was embellished in some way or other. Some things have been debunked. Were they all lies, or was it sometimes "misremembering"? Mary was faaaaaarrrr from perfect, and her mouth was no prayer book, but it seems like such a silly thing to make up, her recollection of "Afro Vogue".

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I guess my issue is- and by issue I mean my desire to understand- is why mention anything about it being true or false? It's not like Mary said she watched it and the background was rainbows and leprechauns, shooting stars and purple horseshoes. She said the background had photos of Diana. I don't see what's so unbelievable about it. We know photos were taken, likely dozens upon dozens, judging by the shots used in the telecast, and it's not a stretch to think that the photos were present during the shooting. I'm not well versed on the technology of the time, so I have to wonder if the photographs were present and filmed or if the technology of the time allowed for interspersing the film with the photos? I also suspect that the entire program was shot in the scheduled time allotted from the studio and "AV" would almost surely have been taped when everything else was taped, and Mary was likely present.

    It just seems to me like the oddest thing to accuse Mary of lying about at this time.

    Yes, Mary's book[[s) were one sided, as most, if not all, autobiographies are. It was her side of the story. Was she supposed to tell it from anybody else's perspective? And I know there were times that the narrative was embellished in some way or other. Some things have been debunked. Were they all lies, or was it sometimes "misremembering"? Mary was faaaaaarrrr from perfect, and her mouth was no prayer book, but it seems like such a silly thing to make up, her recollection of "Afro Vogue".
    It's important to remember that Mary didn't actually write "Dream girl" [[and I mean that with no disrespect to her)..she told her stories to Patricia Romanowski and Ahrgus Juilliard who wrote it into text then Mary reviewed the manuscript...it's highly probable that that explaining the photos interspersed in the segment got lost in translation

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I guess my issue is- and by issue I mean my desire to understand- is why mention anything about it being true or false? It's not like Mary said she watched it and the background was rainbows and leprechauns, shooting stars and purple horseshoes. She said the background had photos of Diana. I don't see what's so unbelievable about it. We know photos were taken, likely dozens upon dozens, judging by the shots used in the telecast, and it's not a stretch to think that the photos were present during the shooting. I'm not well versed on the technology of the time, so I have to wonder if the photographs were present and filmed or if the technology of the time allowed for interspersing the film with the photos? I also suspect that the entire program was shot in the scheduled time allotted from the studio and "AV" would almost surely have been taped when everything else was taped, and Mary was likely present.

    It just seems to me like the oddest thing to accuse Mary of lying about at this time.

    Yes, Mary's book[[s) were one sided, as most, if not all, autobiographies are. It was her side of the story. Was she supposed to tell it from anybody else's perspective? And I know there were times that the narrative was embellished in some way or other. Some things have been debunked. Were they all lies, or was it sometimes "misremembering"? Mary was faaaaaarrrr from perfect, and her mouth was no prayer book, but it seems like such a silly thing to make up, her recollection of "Afro Vogue".
    of course it should be from Mary’s perspective. Who said otherwise? I’m not talking perspective with this or other similar comments - I’m talking about agenda. You can write from your own perspective without an agenda, if you wish. This comment, to me, falls under the category of agenda because it furthers the narrative that she is pushing throughout the book suggesting that she and Florence were victims of The evil Motown machine and diana ross and here’s another example of what she was forced to endure. How I feel, most, if not all the exaggerations misremembrances or whatever you wanna call them in her books seem to further that agenda. I didn’t mention it to infer that Mary’s a big fat liar or to have a discussion about Mary’s intent with her book’s contents, but if you’d like that, it should be another thread. Personally, I think it’s been done. I mentioned it to support my theory that I believe Afro Vogue was taped separately- very possibly on another day when the others might not have been there. From the thing is that Otis said about the two specials, I think if he were there when they filmed Afro vogue that he would’ve mentioned it.

    The San Jose Medley was lipped and may not have been done in front of a live audience. I believe respect was live, but I don’t think the backgrounds were. TCB was lipped as well. Had they included funny girl, they probably would’ve had to replace with a song in my heart medley and something else which I believe would be for once in my life or I hear a Symphony. And I don’t think the temps would’ve been too thrilled if it replaced for once in my life. Anyway I think the special was absolutely perfect just the way it was it went over like a sledgehammer everyone watched it everyone was looking forward to watching it and everyone I talked to loved it. Manny thought that Paul stole the show others that Diana stole the show with somewhere but most people just left the whole damn thing except for Afro Vogue. Some people loved it and some people hated it. the fact that the album went to number one kind of confirms the show was fairly perfect. Would’ve gone to number one if it was that long funny girl Medley there? I don’t know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomis View Post
    It's important to remember that Mary didn't actually write "Dream girl" [[and I mean that with no disrespect to her)..she told her stories to Patricia Romanowski and Ahrgus Juilliard who wrote it into text then Mary reviewed the manuscript...it's highly probable that that explaining the photos interspersed in the segment got lost in translation
    Perhaps. I just think the more likely scenario is that Mary recollected the taping of the "AV" segment either a little differently than how it was- 20 years later- or accurately, having been present and seeing what we- the audience- do not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    of course it should be from Mary’s perspective. Who said otherwise? I’m not talking perspective with this or other similar comments - I’m talking about agenda. You can write from your own perspective without an agenda, if you wish. This comment, to me, falls under the category of agenda because it furthers the narrative that she is pushing throughout the book suggesting that she and Florence were victims of The evil Motown machine and diana ross and here’s another example of what she was forced to endure. How I feel, most, if not all the exaggerations misremembrances or whatever you wanna call them in her books seem to further that agenda. I didn’t mention it to infer that Mary’s a big fat liar or to have a discussion about Mary’s intent with her book’s contents, but if you’d like that, it should be another thread. Personally, I think it’s been done. I mentioned it to support my theory that I believe Afro Vogue was taped separately- very possibly on another day when the others might not have been there. From the thing is that Otis said about the two specials, I think if he were there when they filmed Afro vogue that he would’ve mentioned it.

    The San Jose Medley was lipped and may not have been done in front of a live audience. I believe respect was live, but I don’t think the backgrounds were. TCB was lipped as well. Had they included funny girl, they probably would’ve had to replace with a song in my heart medley and something else which I believe would be for once in my life or I hear a Symphony. And I don’t think the temps would’ve been too thrilled if it replaced for once in my life. Anyway I think the special was absolutely perfect just the way it was it went over like a sledgehammer everyone watched it everyone was looking forward to watching it and everyone I talked to loved it. Manny thought that Paul stole the show others that Diana stole the show with somewhere but most people just left the whole damn thing except for Afro Vogue. Some people loved it and some people hated it. the fact that the album went to number one kind of confirms the show was fairly perfect. Would’ve gone to number one if it was that long funny girl Medley there? I don’t know.
    You say agenda, Mary might have said "telling it like T.I.is". Mary made it clear with her books and subsequent interviews that there were times when she felt like Motown was in Diana's corner and not hers, and definitely not Florence's. There was also times when she felt like Diana was happy with this set up. Whether or not that's exactly how it was, perception is often a person's reality, and both Mary and Flo recalled feeling this way.

    Did Mary have an agenda? Probably. I think most autobios are written with some kind of agenda in mind. Personally, I think Mary had a couple of agendas, some positive, some negative, with writing her first book, if not also her second. So what? Gordy had an agenda with everything he did. So did Diana. Mary was human and subject to the same motivations as the rest of us at any given time.

    For me, the fact of the matter is that Mary's first book is the only source, or the first source, that I can think of that gives Diana her props for that groundbreaking scene. Mary writes about her experience filming TCB. She has some gripes. Isn't she allowed that? Lord knows that if Diana actually wrote a real book about her real life experiences, she'd recount some times as a Supreme and a soloist where she felt disrespected or pushed aside, or just downright annoyed by a particular experience, and lay blame with others if she felt that was appropriate.

    As for Otis, why would he go out of his way to mention "Afro Vogue"? It's been eons since I read his book, but I can't imagine that he mentioned every single detail of the taping of TCB. There is no way I believe that AV was filmed apart from the rest of the taping. That's not typically how TV was done back then, from my understanding. Plus the Supremes' schedule was so busy, anything that needed to be done for TCB had to be done in a certain amount of time. This wasn't filmed at various studios for the Supremes and Temptations' convenience. It was all filmed in one studio. I don't believe Mary is lying about watching the taping.

    Yes, your comment did read to me like you were going out of your way to call Mary a big fat liar. Of all the things to call her that, her recollection of AV seems like a weird one to choose. I think her memories of Tony Turner- calling around to find the Supremes hotel, getting autographs from Flo as she passed them to him from her suite door- were far less believable. After all, we all know Flo was calling him to tell him where they would be, and spent way more up and close personal time with Florence than getting autographs at her suite door.

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    we need to keep in mind that being a Supreme was a JOB for mary and for diana. whereas it's an obsession for us avid fans. those are VERY different perspectives.

    M and D most likely really liked their job. I like my job too [[marketing) but lord knows i could never be expected to remember every detail of every marketing campaign over decades of a career. There are things I'd surely mix and all, even if i was to write a biography on it [[not sure who'd want to read it lol but you get what i'm saying).

    the majority of us on this forum are not just average or casual fans. we know EVERY detail because we obsess over them. we stare at the pics, absorb all of the info, rewatch the vids, etc. That's a level of attention to detail FAR beyond what the average person would most likely capture in their biography. perhaps Mary and the others should have passed their manuscripts by a few of us lol

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    Tempers, tempers guys, remember the TCB and GIT specials were taped so long ago that only a select few of those involved are still with us.

    Motown signed with NBC to do the special in early 1968 while Diana Ross and the Supremes were coming off of three hot sales years and the Tempts were riding almost as high. The taping came around I believe in August 1968. At this point BG had a problem. The whole point of the special was to highlight his two biggest acts while showcasing Ross as he planned to pull her out as a solo by years end. However, because of lagging record sales that didn't happen until 1970.

    As taping began the Supremes were cold. The Tempts were matching or exceeding their sales. So BG couldn't showcase Ross as much as he wanted because of the cooling off period. When Love Child exploded Diana was front and center hotter than ever as the lead vocalist. So some wizardry in the editing room gave her more closeups and segments were cut. The Funny Girl lp tanked so that segment was cut out. If you notice, the songs she does with the Temptations, the emphasis was on her.

    This is why it is called show business. You go where the money is and by the time the show aired in 1968, Diana Ross was the reigning goddess of pop music. In December 1968 when the show aired the Supremes had a hit lp, Love Child, a catalog Greatest Hits that was still selling in big numbers, and two No 1 lps with the Tempts. Add to this several other lps still reaping enough sales to stay in Motown's available catalog. Hers was the only name showcased on these lps. The Temptations were in a delicate situation with a new member that the public might not accept, so Motown was in the process of rebuilding that act. All of these changes happened immediately after the special was planned and was unnerving to Gordy.

    The Supremes and The Temptations became Diana's supporting players. This became more apparent in GIT when she got a 10 minute solo spot out of a 42 minute show. Things were cut again to showcase her and within days of the airing of GIT the announcement was made, to no one's surprise, that she was leaving the group.

    All in all, both specials accomplished what Motown wanted. Diana was now set out as a soloist, the Supremes were hot enough to introduce a new lead singer and continue selling records, and the Temptations emerged with Dennis Edwards hotter than ever.

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    And Dennis Edwards' performance off "I'm Losin' You" on TCB pretty much confirmed that the Temptations had found a force to be reckoned with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomis View Post
    It's important to remember that Mary didn't actually write "Dream girl" [[and I mean that with no disrespect to her)..she told her stories to Patricia Romanowski and Ahrgus Juilliard who wrote it into text then Mary reviewed the manuscript...it's highly probable that that explaining the photos interspersed in the segment got lost in translation
    As well, Mary had to rely on hypnosis to unearth forgotten incidents, and in the decades after Mary's dictation of the book hypnosis and 'recalled memory' have been defined as a highly unreliable source of fact as when under hypnosis patients are unable to separate true memories vs. desired experiences and outright dreams. The technique caused a lot of trouble during the Satanic Panic investigations and more. The more boisterous fans of Mary don't like to hear this, but ... Just the facts, 'mam.
    Last edited by PeaceNHarmony; 03-18-2022 at 11:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    As well, Mary had to rely on hypnosis to unearth forgotten incidents, and in the decades after Mary's dictation of the book hypnosis and 'recalled memory' have been defined as a highly unreliable source of fact as when under hypnosis patients are unable to separate true memories vs. desired experiences and outright dreams. The technique caused a lot of trouble during the Satanic Panic investigations and more. The more boisterous fans of Mary don't like to hear this, but ... Just the facts, 'mam.
    Quite true Peace. Hypnosis is a very limited technology and relies mostly on the persons desire to believe in it. One can "believe" they see and do things if chosen. This is not to criticize the practice, only to explain it.

    Mary relied not only on her diaries but consulted the many fans whose memories were far more in tuned to what happened. Some facts in her and Randy's books as well were not totally accurate or, at times, inaccurate. I don't remember if Mary wrote this or said it in an interview, but she claimed she lost contact with Milton Jenkins. Yet it was revealed he married Flo's sister. How could she not know this?

    The books by and far complimented each other and were mostly accurate. When one writes about an incident twenty plus years later, memory is bound to become less dependable. I have learned over time and many interviews that the so called "rift" between Flo and Diana was short lived and not as toxic as stated. In all honesty, there were far more probems amongst the 70s Supremes as there were among the original group.

    For example, a relative of Flo's who participated in the E programs I did recalled being at Flo's house in early 1970 shortly after the Farewell performance. Diana came over one afternoon to Flo's house. They embraced and went upstairs to talk in private while this relative babysat. They could hear the laughter between the two ladies emanating from upstairs during the visit. The visit ended with Flo and Diana hugging at the front door and Diana hugging and kissing Flo's twins. No one knows what was discussed between them, likely just girl talk, but there was nothing but warmth between them. Yet no one has written about this. Also no one discusses that Flo had cold feet about the bio she was writing in her last days because she didn't want to hurt Diana. Her anger was strictly directed at Gordy.

    I remember in 1978 I interviewed Jean Terrell when her solo lp was issued. She was gracious and gave me two hours. When I pressed her about the demise of the group, and particularly the failure of the Jimmy Webb lp, she got a bit exasperated and said, "you know, it's hard for me to talk about these things because there is so much that I just don't remember. Had we talked about this then I probably could tell you more about it." That was a totally accurate statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Quite true Peace. Hypnosis is a very limited technology and relies mostly on the persons desire to believe in it. One can "believe" they see and do things if chosen. This is not to criticize the practice, only to explain it.

    Mary relied not only on her diaries but consulted the many fans whose memories were far more in tuned to what happened. Some facts in her and Randy's books as well were not totally accurate or, at times, inaccurate. I don't remember if Mary wrote this or said it in an interview, but she claimed she lost contact with Milton Jenkins. Yet it was revealed he married Flo's sister. How could she not know this?

    The books by and far complimented each other and were mostly accurate. When one writes about an incident twenty plus years later, memory is bound to become less dependable. I have learned over time and many interviews that the so called "rift" between Flo and Diana was short lived and not as toxic as stated. In all honesty, there were far more probems amongst the 70s Supremes as there were among the original group.

    For example, a relative of Flo's who participated in the E programs I did recalled being at Flo's house in early 1970 shortly after the Farewell performance. Diana came over one afternoon to Flo's house. They embraced and went upstairs to talk in private while this relative babysat. They could hear the laughter between the two ladies emanating from upstairs during the visit. The visit ended with Flo and Diana hugging at the front door and Diana hugging and kissing Flo's twins. No one knows what was discussed between them, likely just girl talk, but there was nothing but warmth between them. Yet no one has written about this. Also no one discusses that Flo had cold feet about the bio she was writing in her last days because she didn't want to hurt Diana. Her anger was strictly directed at Gordy.

    I remember in 1978 I interviewed Jean Terrell when her solo lp was issued. She was gracious and gave me two hours. When I pressed her about the demise of the group, and particularly the failure of the Jimmy Webb lp, she got a bit exasperated and said, "you know, it's hard for me to talk about these things because there is so much that I just don't remember. Had we talked about this then I probably could tell you more about it." That was a totally accurate statement.
    Bayou - i always so thoroughly enjoy your posts. again, i'll repeat my comments about not only time causing memories to fade but the fact that us fans are sponges for every fact and story. we just take it all in and comment to lifelong memory.

    what a beautiful story about D and F. Was it you that also shared a story from Gil about how both D and M were very involved with protecting Flo during her initial decline while in the group and the girls did very much truly care for each other. and i think the story was the Berry for a while was also very concerned and wanting her to get back together. i don't think any of them were maliciously trying to oust her. it's just the perhaps B and then D finally came to the realization that enough was enough and there's only so much we can do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Bayou - i always so thoroughly enjoy your posts. again, i'll repeat my comments about not only time causing memories to fade but the fact that us fans are sponges for every fact and story. we just take it all in and comment to lifelong memory.

    what a beautiful story about D and F. Was it you that also shared a story from Gil about how both D and M were very involved with protecting Flo during her initial decline while in the group and the girls did very much truly care for each other. and i think the story was the Berry for a while was also very concerned and wanting her to get back together. i don't think any of them were maliciously trying to oust her. it's just the perhaps B and then D finally came to the realization that enough was enough and there's only so much we can do.


    Last comment is totally accurate. In 1967, the Supremes were the hottest act worldwide commanding top dollar for appearances. Only Elvis, the Beatles [[who rarely performed) and perhaps the Stones made more money. While it is very true that Gordy overworked the girls to thorough exhaustion, it was obvious that Flo's problems were more psychological in nature and the exhaustion was making it worse. Gordy and Ross were keenly aware of the importance of Flo's role in the group. The public loved all the Supremes. While they were certainly sympathetic, when you are working a break-neck schedule and constantly having to stop to appease one person, it does grate on one's nerves, which are already stressed to the max.

    From a business standpoint, Florence's problems were serious enough to warrant change. She was erratic, angry, moody and one never knew what to expect. She was given more than one chance. In fact, after the verdict came down in Gordy manor that Berry, Diana AND Mary had voted Flo out, she still got a reprieve when certain venues wanted to cancel bookings if Flo was not there. Also Gordy had to negotiate Cindy out of her group. Flo's return in the spring and early summer of 67 was known to be tenuous and likely temporary. This would have been the best time for Flo to turn over a new leaf and go along with Berry's plan to make Diana a solo star. Had she been cooperative she likely would have taken over lead chops after Diana left.

    In Flo's exhaustion and confusion she just couldn't see that far ahead. Falling in love with Tommy and listening to him probably didn't help. Although Tommy claimed to have encouraged Flo to hang on to her position, Flo's behavior suggests otherwise. The drinking continued and then the final appearance in Vegas where she went onstage drunk. It was as if Flo was seeing just how far she could push Gordy and Ross. That was the breaking point.

    Nobody wanted to see Florence fade away like she did. It is interesting, though never stated, that while Flo visited Mary in 74 and made a brief stage appearance with the group, the last show biz call she made only a few months before she died was to Diana Ross. It was a healing moment for both and Flo had vowed that she was going to get her life back on track and pursue singing. Tommy's coming back in the picture after Flo got a settlement likely did not help this either and within weeks Florence was dead.

    When you have a well-oiled, money-making machine like the Supremes hauling in loads of cash...you have musicians to pay, constumers, agents, choreographers etc. etc...they don't want to hear that one of the girls is unhappy and won't perform. When that happens a lot of people don't get paid and future bookings could likely be cancelled if the group is deemed undependable. Florence just had to go, plain and simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    You say agenda, Mary might have said "telling it like T.I.is". Mary made it clear with her books and subsequent interviews that there were times when she felt like Motown was in Diana's corner and not hers, and definitely not Florence's. There was also times when she felt like Diana was happy with this set up. Whether or not that's exactly how it was, perception is often a person's reality, and both Mary and Flo recalled feeling this way.

    Did Mary have an agenda? Probably. I think most autobios are written with some kind of agenda in mind. Personally, I think Mary had a couple of agendas, some positive, some negative, with writing her first book, if not also her second. So what? Gordy had an agenda with everything he did. So did Diana. Mary was human and subject to the same motivations as the rest of us at any given time.

    For me, the fact of the matter is that Mary's first book is the only source, or the first source, that I can think of that gives Diana her props for that groundbreaking scene. Mary writes about her experience filming TCB. She has some gripes. Isn't she allowed that? Lord knows that if Diana actually wrote a real book about her real life experiences, she'd recount some times as a Supreme and a soloist where she felt disrespected or pushed aside, or just downright annoyed by a particular experience, and lay blame with others if she felt that was appropriate.

    As for Otis, why would he go out of his way to mention "Afro Vogue"? It's been eons since I read his book, but I can't imagine that he mentioned every single detail of the taping of TCB. There is no way I believe that AV was filmed apart from the rest of the taping. That's not typically how TV was done back then, from my understanding. Plus the Supremes' schedule was so busy, anything that needed to be done for TCB had to be done in a certain amount of time. This wasn't filmed at various studios for the Supremes and Temptations' convenience. It was all filmed in one studio. I don't believe Mary is lying about watching the taping.

    Yes, your comment did read to me like you were going out of your way to call Mary a big fat liar. Of all the things to call her that, her recollection of AV seems like a weird one to choose. I think her memories of Tony Turner- calling around to find the Supremes hotel, getting autographs from Flo as she passed them to him from her suite door- were far less believable. After all, we all know Flo was calling him to tell him where they would be, and spent way more up and close personal time with Florence than getting autographs at her suite door.
    look I think you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill, and had I realized I was stepping on such a deeply felt principal, it was just an offhand comment, I could’ve said there’s no visual evidence or form of reason to believe that statement television is not produced that way and it was not produced that way back then. When performers are not needed for a long period of time they generally are not called for that day or that portion of the day. This can be true even for a 30 second cut in. I don’t believe they were on the sand or ever sought. I had long talks and none of them ever mentioned that set, and yes Otis I believe would have mentioned it because he sure mentioned everything else about TCB and GIT. I think he would’ve had plenty to say if he was there for the taping of Afro Vogue and or the leading Lady medley. All three of them would. If you don’t think so we disagree it’s OK.

    of course many books have an agenda maybe all books have an agenda, my problem with Mary‘s agenda is that it included a very one-sided view of her experience which included exaggerations and untruths to bolster the many truths she had to tell. You don’t seem to have a problem with that that’s fine. But when we use a source of information, presented as fact, then we’re led to believe things were a certain way when they were not. We might believe that the andantes weren’t used until after Florence left the group. That fit the narrative that Mary wanted to project. Perhaps it’s possible she forgot that she recorded you can’t hurry love with Marlene Barrow and not Florence, or that they weren’t on the Christmas album at all and what that must’ve felt like when they learned the album was done without them. Which was the case. For a long time they had no idea the album was finished without them. And they were not happy about it. That’s not in the book, and I believe it is not because it does not further her agenda. I had to have an entire album come out and not be on it I would imagine would make the cut what goes in and does not go in the book. Unless there’s a reason . so we can disagree on this and it’s fine. Remember we are talking about someone who did dozens of interviews in a period of five months claiming the preposterous notion that diana ross has been paid $20 million for RTL when she knew it wasn’t true, couldn’t be true, was impossible anyway you want to figure it, impossible. When Mary had an agenda, she went for it.

    I am sorry that this discussion, and my offhand comment turned into this amount of palaver, it certainly wasn’t my intention. It doesn’t make Mary a bad person everyone who knew her knew she was a wonderful person and as I stated last week, those tributes that people recited at the Grammy tribute we’re 100% my experience with Mary. She was a blast to be around and kind and gentle and fun, but she had a blind spot and she couldn’t help it. I think she felt hurt and threatened by the politics in the group and it left scars. It’s completely understandable. So for the record, I did not call Mary a big fat liar nor did I imply it or intend to suggest it. What I said was it was untrue. That can mean many things other than big fat liar, and it this case, it did mean other things.
    Last edited by TheMotownManiac; 03-18-2022 at 07:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Tempers, tempers guys, remember the TCB and GIT specials were taped so long ago that only a select few of those involved are still with us.

    Motown signed with NBC to do the special in early 1968 while Diana Ross and the Supremes were coming off of three hot sales years and the Tempts were riding almost as high. The taping came around I believe in August 1968. At this point BG had a problem. The whole point of the special was to highlight his two biggest acts while showcasing Ross as he planned to pull her out as a solo by years end. However, because of lagging record sales that didn't happen until 1970.

    As taping began the Supremes were cold. The Tempts were matching or exceeding their sales. So BG couldn't showcase Ross as much as he wanted because of the cooling off period. When Love Child exploded Diana was front and center hotter than ever as the lead vocalist. So some wizardry in the editing room gave her more closeups and segments were cut. The Funny Girl lp tanked so that segment was cut out. If you notice, the songs she does with the Temptations, the emphasis was on her.

    This is why it is called show business. You go where the money is and by the time the show aired in 1968, Diana Ross was the reigning goddess of pop music. In December 1968 when the show aired the Supremes had a hit lp, Love Child, a catalog Greatest Hits that was still selling in big numbers, and two No 1 lps with the Tempts. Add to this several other lps still reaping enough sales to stay in Motown's available catalog. Hers was the only name showcased on these lps. The Temptations were in a delicate situation with a new member that the public might not accept, so Motown was in the process of rebuilding that act. All of these changes happened immediately after the special was planned and was unnerving to Gordy.

    The Supremes and The Temptations became Diana's supporting players. This became more apparent in GIT when she got a 10 minute solo spot out of a 42 minute show. Things were cut again to showcase her and within days of the airing of GIT the announcement was made, to no one's surprise, that she was leaving the group.

    All in all, both specials accomplished what Motown wanted. Diana was now set out as a soloist, the Supremes were hot enough to introduce a new lead singer and continue selling records, and the Temptations emerged with Dennis Edwards hotter than ever.
    i’m fine I’m not angry at all I just don’t understand the great big fuss over me not believing there was ever a set constructed with diana‘s picture all over the place. And I still don’t believe it. And you are absolutely right about them pushing Diana, and Otis Mary and Cindy told me they were not thrilled with the Scripts. Diana had two solo spots on TCB three if you account are introduction by The Temptations. Four if you count Eleanor Rigby. That is a fair amount of screen time without Mary and Cindy. GIT was practically 1/3 Diana‘s new solo act. The leading Lady Medley and rhythm of life. And they understood what was going on that doesn’t mean they had to like it.

    Aside from the shock of seeing diana ross’s name appear by itself on the screen after the announcer says “starring diana ross” And all of the solo time she got, we find out that the guy picked to do the impossible, replace David Ruffin, actually did the impossible! I can’t think of a time when a group changed popular, iconic lead singers and maintained the pace or bettered it. Plus he was cute as hell! TCB was a wonderful night.

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    There was no great big fuss. I told you from the beginning that I wanted understanding. Without understanding, the conclusions reached can be erroneous. From there we had what I thought was healthy discourse. We've been corresponding in this forum for years now, long enough to know that there are times when we agree and times when we disagree. True, I read what you said as "Mary's a big liar". If that wasn't your intention, I'm good with that. Anyone with enough time on their hands can certainly find my critical analysis of Mary's books right here in this forum, so the comment about what I "believe" isn't true.

    I asked a question, you answered. I reckon there's nothing left for me to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    [/B]Last comment is totally accurate. In 1967, the Supremes were the hottest act worldwide commanding top dollar for appearances. Only Elvis, the Beatles [[who rarely performed) and perhaps the Stones made more money. While it is very true that Gordy overworked the girls to thorough exhaustion, it was obvious that Flo's problems were more psychological in nature and the exhaustion was making it worse. Gordy and Ross were keenly aware of the importance of Flo's role in the group. The public loved all the Supremes. While they were certainly sympathetic, when you are working a break-neck schedule and constantly having to stop to appease one person, it does grate on one's nerves, which are already stressed to the max.

    From a business standpoint, Florence's problems were serious enough to warrant change. She was erratic, angry, moody and one never knew what to expect. She was given more than one chance. In fact, after the verdict came down in Gordy manor that Berry, Diana AND Mary had voted Flo out, she still got a reprieve when certain venues wanted to cancel bookings if Flo was not there. Also Gordy had to negotiate Cindy out of her group. Flo's return in the spring and early summer of 67 was known to be tenuous and likely temporary. This would have been the best time for Flo to turn over a new leaf and go along with Berry's plan to make Diana a solo star. Had she been cooperative she likely would have taken over lead chops after Diana left.

    In Flo's exhaustion and confusion she just couldn't see that far ahead. Falling in love with Tommy and listening to him probably didn't help. Although Tommy claimed to have encouraged Flo to hang on to her position, Flo's behavior suggests otherwise. The drinking continued and then the final appearance in Vegas where she went onstage drunk. It was as if Flo was seeing just how far she could push Gordy and Ross. That was the breaking point.

    Nobody wanted to see Florence fade away like she did. It is interesting, though never stated, that while Flo visited Mary in 74 and made a brief stage appearance with the group, the last show biz call she made only a few months before she died was to Diana Ross. It was a healing moment for both and Flo had vowed that she was going to get her life back on track and pursue singing. Tommy's coming back in the picture after Flo got a settlement likely did not help this either and within weeks Florence was dead.

    When you have a well-oiled, money-making machine like the Supremes hauling in loads of cash...you have musicians to pay, constumers, agents, choreographers etc. etc...they don't want to hear that one of the girls is unhappy and won't perform. When that happens a lot of people don't get paid and future bookings could likely be cancelled if the group is deemed undependable. Florence just had to go, plain and simple.
    I don’t think Flo would have been allowed to take the lead once Diana left. Her voice just wasn’t commercial or versatile enough to be leading Supremes songs.

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    I sometimes wondered when reading that 'My Man' was performed in the 60s if there was a plan to put Diana into a Billie Holliday movie from even those early pre-solo days. But when you see/hear this cut, you think 'no way' could Diane do justice to Billie's songs. In this clip it even looks like she has accidentally put on one of Cindy's wigs.

    Thank the lord she had some help with at least phrasing a few years later, because the LSTB cuts were fine but Diana from the 60s would not have been right for the movie/soundtrack.

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    Oh - I see we are back to the pre-Covid arguments of 'Mary bad Diana good' [[or vice versa).

    I'm out of here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi Stubbs Tears View Post
    I sometimes wondered when reading that 'My Man' was performed in the 60s if there was a plan to put Diana into a Billie Holliday movie from even those early pre-solo days. But when you see/hear this cut, you think 'no way' could Diane do justice to Billie's songs. In this clip it even looks like she has accidentally put on one of Cindy's wigs.

    Thank the lord she had some help with at least phrasing a few years later, because the LSTB cuts were fine but Diana from the 60s would not have been right for the movie/soundtrack.
    I think when they had Diana sing My Man in the late 60s it wasn't to pay tribute to Billie Holliday, but to promote Diana as the Black Streisand as Streisand sang the song in Funny Girl, as it was a standard for Fanny Brice.

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    the FG album was clearly designed to establish DR as a black BS and to further cement her position as a versatile entertainer, not just a pop singer. the group had already successfully pushed this boundary with the Copa runs, Lincoln Center, Sing R&H lp and their tv appearances. my guess is that by doing a full show album it would begin to show theater and movie industry that DR was more than just a pop figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    the FG album was clearly designed to establish DR as a black BS and to further cement her position as a versatile entertainer, not just a pop singer. the group had already successfully pushed this boundary with the Copa runs, Lincoln Center, Sing R&H lp and their tv appearances. my guess is that by doing a full show album it would begin to show theater and movie industry that DR was more than just a pop figure.
    The irony of it all was that by early 70s Streisand was working on adding contemporary pop singer to her persona with Stoney End and songs of that sort to keep relevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21 View Post
    The irony of it all was that by early 70s Streisand was working on adding contemporary pop singer to her persona with Stoney End and songs of that sort to keep relevant.
    you could certainly make an argument that both DR and the 70s Sups needed to spend a bit more time maintaining their current relevancy with the young adult and college audiences. sure both had huge hits but both were focusing on the Vegas crowds. Lady Sings is what, IMO, saved Diana. that broke her into the stratosphere. had that not happened, she would never have really become DIANA ROSS. the sups started new and fresh in 70 with Jean but needed to keep evolving and they didn't. the duets just bogged them down and degraded their reputation. plus the corny MOR content and vegas glitz just was running down

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21 View Post
    I think when they had Diana sing My Man in the late 60s it wasn't to pay tribute to Billie Holliday, but to promote Diana as the Black Streisand as Streisand sang the song in Funny Girl, as it was a standard for Fanny Brice.

    there’s a lot of chicken in the egg here I believe. Jay Weston claim to have seen Diana‘s TV special and wanted her for Lady. That was April 1971, and she was recording the songs in August. That’s pretty fast to get a deal done etc. in the cover story on diana ross it looked magazine October 69, she was talking about Billie Holiday and talking about studying Billie Holiday. Gordy must’ve had some sort of plan in mind, and it was about this time that she started doing the song. And then there’s that story JRT has in CHMR. “I supposed to cut all be true….. There was talk of The Black Barbra Streisand…. I never cared for that moniker because while there were similarities, Ross was considered much more of a popstar than the traditional Streisand. By the time she left the group, popular culture had divided with the majority of the culture going towards the more hippie kind of trend and she was not considered a trendsetter anymore. Babs never was, except her short bob was copied a lot for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21 View Post
    The irony of it all was that by early 70s Streisand was working on adding contemporary pop singer to her persona with Stoney End and songs of that sort to keep relevant.
    even more ironic with Arrangements bones Howe did for diana ross that got rejected!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    There was no great big fuss. I told you from the beginning that I wanted understanding. Without understanding, the conclusions reached can be erroneous. From there we had what I thought was healthy discourse. We've been corresponding in this forum for years now, long enough to know that there are times when we agree and times when we disagree. True, I read what you said as "Mary's a big liar". If that wasn't your intention, I'm good with that. Anyone with enough time on their hands can certainly find my critical analysis of Mary's books right here in this forum, so the comment about what I "believe" isn't true.

    I asked a question, you answered. I reckon there's nothing left for me to say.
    I reckon you’re right…no biggie….peace.

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    I love this version. The arrangement has a Broadway persona. Diana Ross adds alot drama to it which makes it a signature song for her.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNSUN View Post
    I love this version. The arrangement has a Broadway persona. Diana Ross adds alot drama to it which makes it a signature song for her.
    I was never keen on this song; however the Motown 60 version was a show stopper and even by the 1980's Diana had learned how to make this a great part of her show.

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