In And Out Of Love on The Ed Sullivan Show

[carlo]

Premiering Sunday evening on the official Ed Sullivan Show YouTube channel...

[RanRan79]

This was a nice performance for them. They could've kept "Thou Swell". This was definitely a different vibe from the last time the Supremes were on the show with Florence. Strange [[but not really) that swapping members can change the dynamic so easily. 2/3 of the group was the same, but it's almost an entirely different group, if that makes any sense.

[thanxal]

I've always liked "In and Out of Love". I know some hate it, but for me it's a nice tune. Is it "Stop" or "LILAIIMH"? No, but it is a bit catchy.

[TheMotownManiac]

This was a nice performance for them. They could've kept "Thou Swell". This was definitely a different vibe from the last time the Supremes were on the show with Florence. Strange [[but not really) that swapping members can change the dynamic so easily. 2/3 of the group was the same, but it's almost an entirely different group, if that makes any sense.

i’m with you 1000% on this. It is so not the same group. So not the same five. So not the same anything, it seems. But that in itself shows the over whelming dynamic that Florence Ballard brought to the group. I’m not nuts about the song or these gowns but it’s fine, but I remember when this first aired. Looking at Cindy was like looking at Rasputin. And of course she was doing a wonderful job, but as you said so succinctly, it is an entirely different group because the dynamic is so different, add to that the glory days of HDH were officially over.

But I adore Thou Swell.

[TheMotownManiac]

I've always liked "In and Out of Love". I know some hate it, but for me it's a nice tune. Is it "Stop" or "LILAIIMH"? No, but it is a bit catchy.

I just realized, upon reading your comment, but I didn’t mind the record new as much as I do now because it reminds me that it was just two more steps to oblivion, a.k.a. some things you never get used to it. After three years of killer nonstop mega hits, It was all over. So I associate this record with the confirmation and I have been fair to the record as it’s better than I give it credit for.

[Ollie9]

This was a nice performance for them. They could've kept "Thou Swell". This was definitely a different vibe from the last time the Supremes were on the show with Florence. Strange [[but not really) that swapping members can change the dynamic so easily. 2/3 of the group was the same, but it's almost an entirely different group, if that makes any sense.

I agree in that it was a very different vibe. It made one realise just what a huge contribution Flo made to the overall sound and personality of the group. Things were never quite the same after she left, no matter how polished they became.
Diana always sounded great when singing this song live. She makes it look so effortless.

[jobucats]

This tv performance definitely did usher in the 'new' Supremes visually to the viewing audience. Musically, the song is 'cute' and well arranged; however, it never grabbed me as a Motown song or as a Supremes song. I will say that I did love the elegance and softness of the gowns. Has this song ever been covered by any other artists OR has the song itself ever been sampled?

[floyjoy678]

I agree it was quite a change from when they were on there with Florence just a few months earlier.

Doesn't it seem like they literally grew up into ladies once Cindy came in? I have a hard time putting it exactly into words too. Maybe because Cindy was a few years older? It definitely wasn't the same after Flo left, both musically and visually.

[bradsupremes]

The white lace gowns were designed by LaVetta King of Beverly Hills. She was the group's first designer before they began to use Michael Travis in late 1967. LaVetta told me the inspiration for these were the Catholic altar boys uniforms.

[RanRan79]

I've always liked "In and Out of Love". I know some hate it, but for me it's a nice tune. Is it "Stop" or "LILAIIMH"? No, but it is a bit catchy.

I've always liked it also. Great lead vocal. The backing is catchy. But I never would have released it as a single. Sitting aside any validity to HDH's issues with Motown, I have to wonder what might the post "Reflections" Supremes been able to accomplish singles wise if HDH had continued their previous work output. I think that the decision to release "In and Out" was more about it being the only real choice the label had at that point with songs as potential singles, than the song itself screaming "hit". I imagine the same goes for "Forever Came Today". Perhaps if HDH had continued working on "Forever", it might have been the follow up to "Reflections". It'll be real interesting to hear what new mixes the song could get when, and if, a Reflections EE is released. [[Along with the Funk Bros version of In and Out. Maybe that's the track that should have been the single.)

[RanRan79]

I agree it was quite a change from when they were on there with Florence just a few months earlier.

Doesn't it seem like they literally grew up into ladies once Cindy came in? I have a hard time putting it exactly into words too. Maybe because Cindy was a few years older? It definitely wasn't the same after Flo left, both musically and visually.

Absolutely. DRATS was the grown women version of the Supremes. Cindy helped usher that in. With Flo, even as late as that Tonight Show appearance where they do "The Happening", they still seemed like young ladies from around the way. Flo's charm was a part of that.

[marybrewster]

Everything got so much grander after Flo left, and Cindy joined. The lashes got longer, the hair got bigger, the dresses got flashier. Diana and Mary look flawless.

Catch Cindy flubbing the backgrounds, towards the end of the performance.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

I've always liked 'In And Out of Love' and watched the Sullivan clip many times. It really did mark the end of an era due to the HDH situation [[though I do like 'Forever Came Today' also as a result of watching that Sullivan performance).

I wonder what percentage of Ed's viewers even realised there was a different 'back-up singer'. Though I'm sure some did know the girls' names, I reckon 80% wouldn't have had a clue.

[CoolKatz]

Absolutely. DRATS was the grown women version of the Supremes. Cindy helped usher that in. With Flo, even as late as that Tonight Show appearance where they do "The Happening", they still seemed like young ladies from around the way. Flo's charm was a part of that.

I honestly don't believe that Cindy had anything to do with though she carried it well. Remember she came from the Bluebelles and they did not utilize much glamor at all

The more glam [[and imo more dramatic) look was a rebranding of Diana Ross and the Supremes. Everything got bigger and brighter during this era. Cindy got a lot of Flo's gowns initially and she wore them that first year of her being in the group and the look remained the same until early to mid 1968ish. I think the group would have gone in this direction regardless of who was in it as we can see the evolution from 1964 to 1967.

Back on topic, I am looking forward to this performance because it was the same show that they performed with the Temps. I will also be happy once they release the Millie/Rose/Mame medley.

[jobeterob]

Flo in the background with Diana singing against her and the musicians could not be beat - it was like sweet and salty

It was never the same after she left - I don’t mean to sound harsh but especially Cindy was too indistinct but that was also what Mary Wilson’s voice suffered from - they just didn’t stand out; if there was a reason for the use of the Andantes, it may have been they stood out more - like the opening shriek in Love Child

[RanRan79]

I honestly don't believe that Cindy had anything to do with though she carried it well. Remember she came from the Bluebelles and they did not utilize much glamor at all

The more glam [[and imo more dramatic) look was a rebranding of Diana Ross and the Supremes. Everything got bigger and brighter during this era. Cindy got a lot of Flo's gowns initially and she wore them that first year of her being in the group and the look remained the same until early to mid 1968ish. I think the group would have gone in this direction regardless of who was in it as we can see the evolution from 1964 to 1967.

Back on topic, I am looking forward to this performance because it was the same show that they performed with the Temps. I will also be happy once they release the Millie/Rose/Mame medley.

My point wasn't that Cindy came in and was like "Okay girls, this is how we're going to do it...". I was pointing out that Cindy was a part of ushering in this new image. It fit her. Even when I see her with the Bluebelles, Cindy came across much more womanly than the other three. Somebody pointed out once that Cindy being older might have had something to do with it. Perhaps. But the dynamic of the group was entirely different post Florence.

[sup_fan]

i completely agree with the prior comments that in late 67, the group changed from being young girls to being adult women. you could almost say that prior, the girls were "playing dress up" to some degree. talented and beautiful girls dressing up in momma's gowns and makeup

but that definitely changed

maybe part of it was the name change. When someone at work is promoted to, say, a Vice President role, they might upgrade their dress and presence to a higher level. maybe with diana's "promotion" to star billing had her upgrade her stage presence. plus the girls were a year old and a year more mature. and they had another year of stage experience. probably is a combo of all of this

Berry was also keen to continue refining Diana's star persona, as was she. at this point she was already the full lead singer. and had already been interacting with hose and interviewers. but again, she was a "girl" doing it. it seems around this time that she starts being, as i've called it before, Mistress of Ceremonies. through 67 and into 68, her stage presence grows. and by late 68 she is host of Hollywood Palace and TCB. i think both were hugely important as they really did establish her more as that "mistress of ceremonies" and not just a pop star or just a lead singer.

[CoolKatz]

My point wasn't that Cindy came in and was like "Okay girls, this is how we're going to do it...". I was pointing out that Cindy was a part of ushering in this new image. It fit her. Even when I see her with the Bluebelles, Cindy came across much more womanly than the other three. Somebody pointed out once that Cindy being older might have had something to do with it. Perhaps. But the dynamic of the group was entirely different post Florence.

Not my point either. Cindy just happen to come in at that time and she was great for the part. If anybody said "girls here's how we're going to do it", it would have been Diana...and even then Gordy and the Motown management at that time had the final say. Cindy fit well with the new image but with the name change they were on this trajectory anyway. As I stated it was a rebranding to be bigger and greater. They were no longer just the Supremes [[the three girls from Brewster) but now Diana Ross and the Supremes with a grander image and style.

[RanRan79]

Not my point either. Cindy just happen to come in at that time and she was great for the part. If anybody said "girls here's how we're going to do it", it would have been Diana...and even then Gordy and the Motown management at that time had the final say. As I said earlier Cindy fit the era well but should would have likely been good with whatever they were doing. As I stated it was a rebranding to be bigger and greater. They were no longer just the Supremes [[the three girls from Brewster) but now Diana Ross and the Supremes with a grander image and style.

Yes, and Cindy was a part of that. Sorry, but if Flo had been replaced with Betty Kelly of the Vandellas, I do not think that DRATS would have looked as sophisticated and "grown up" as they did with Cindy, no matter how glitzed and glammed their gowns became. Even when DRATS "dresses down" like the Love Child outfits or those ugly pantsuits they wore for "Shame" on Sullivan, there's an element of sophistication that exists, and I credit Cindy with adding to that dynamic.

Before Flo was fired, DRATS was already on deck. Finding her replacement meant finding someone who could fit the direction. No one knew what kind of Supreme Cindy was ultimately going to be until she actually became one. Who she is added to the DRATS image as opposed to taking away from it. That's all. I am no way giving Cindy credit for decisions regarding DRATS. I'm giving her props for her intangible contributions to the group.

[CoolKatz]

Nor am I taking away from Ms.B. Cindy was/is a class act however there were many ladies [[Barbara Randolph comes to mind) who could have brought the Las Vegasy supper club glam to the image they were going for. Sadly it was not a look or image that was good with the changing racial/political climate. It worked well for Ms.Ross even now. It is her brand!

Anyone who ever watched the Blubelles could see that Cindy exuded class and sophistication above the others. Cindy was always very articulate and a more laid back energy

[RanRan79]

Nor am I taking away from Ms.B. Cindy was/is a class act however there were many ladies [[Barbara Randolph comes to mind) who could have brought the Las Vegasy supper club glam to the image they were going for. Sadly it was not a look or image that was good with the changing racial/political climate. It worked well for Ms.Ross even now. It is her brand!

Anyone who ever watched the Blubelles could see that Cindy exuded class and sophistication above the others. Cindy was always very articulate and a more laid back energy

I think you're still misunderstanding me. I wasn't implying that only Cindy could have fit into the image. Sure, there were thousands of Black women in and outside of the industry who could have stepped into Flo's position and contributed to the new direction the group was taking. But it was Cindy who got the job, and for what she contributed, it was Cindy who can be credited with adding to the new imagery.

You bring up a good point about the changing times. We often talk about DRATS popularity waning because of lack of hits, but I wonder how much the changing times played against this over the top glammed out Supremes. Is there a way they could have changed with the new landscape and still been able to move up the nightclub ladder to bigger and better money?

[Boogiedown]

It’s the choreography that pulls this appearance off .
Nice look, maybe bridal veils would complete it ? .…


Pleasant enough little tune , not offensive in any way.

[bradsupremes]

Jumping in quickly on this...

The image of the group was entirely created by the ladies themselves. Motown never pushed them into the glitz and glamour or directed on how they were going to look. Mary told me it was a group decision to step up on the look - more makeup, more sequins and beads, more everything.

The image overhaul in late 1967 was the product of Michael Travis. When I interviewed him just before his death, he mentioned to me that he had always wanted to design for them and felt they needed a boost in their glamour look. As he told me "What they had was nice, but I wanted them to wow and that's exactly what I did." When the ladies were scheduled to appear on the Tennessee Ernie Ford special and he was the costume designer he saw it as an opportunity to approach them with some of his designs and the ladies loved it. From that point forward, any new gowns were designer made specifically for them.

[sup_fan]

Jumping in quickly on this...

The image of the group was entirely created by the ladies themselves. Motown never pushed them into the glitz and glamour or directed on how they were going to look. Mary told me it was a group decision to step up on the look - more makeup, more sequins and beads, more everything.

The image overhaul in late 1967 was the product of Michael Travis. When I interviewed him just before his death, he mentioned to me that he had always wanted to design for them and felt they needed a boost in their glamour look. As he told me "What they had was nice, but I wanted them to wow and that's exactly what I did." When the ladies were scheduled to appear on the Tennessee Ernie Ford special and he was the costume designer he saw it as an opportunity to approach them with some of his designs and the ladies loved it. From that point forward, any new gowns were designer made specifically for them.

great story! did he share other thoughts and stories? like his approach to TCB? were there outfits never made? etc?

totally agree that what they had was nice although I would say the initial outfits from Bob Mackie upped their game a bit too - the things on R&H and the cream sequin gowns with the diagonal pearl and gold stripes. but yes. mostly prior to Travis the outfits were lovely but not wow

[floyjoy678]

Another thing I noticed is Cindy seems a lot more laid back on stage compared to Flo who would ham it up especially when she was on her A-game.

[Boogiedown]

Minor tidbit:
Only from watching this, after all these decades, am I noticing Diana echos herself on the word “love” each time she sings :
“keep falling in and out of love-love”

Just a little something extra worked in there that someone thought added something , maybe Diana herself came up with it….

[copley]

Great performance of a very mediocre single! Didn't like it then and nothing has changed. Spoiled a run of 17 great singles.

This version is much better IMHO!

[Ollie9]

Jumping in quickly on this...

The image of the group was entirely created by the ladies themselves. Motown never pushed them into the glitz and glamour or directed on how they were going to look. Mary told me it was a group decision to step up on the look - more makeup, more sequins and beads, more everything.

The image overhaul in late 1967 was the product of Michael Travis. When I interviewed him just before his death, he mentioned to me that he had always wanted to design for them and felt they needed a boost in their glamour look. As he told me "What they had was nice, but I wanted them to wow and that's exactly what I did." When the ladies were scheduled to appear on the Tennessee Ernie Ford special and he was the costume designer he saw it as an opportunity to approach them with some of his designs and the ladies loved it. From that point forward, any new gowns were designer made specifically for them.

Very interesting. Thanks for the info brad. I wonder who was responsible for the Love Child image of shorts and sweatshirts. Complete with obligatory false eyelashes of course...

[SatansBlues]

This is an ok song, nothing special, especially being released after Reflections. It's more in the same pop vein as the Happening. Neither song is the best in the HDH songbook, IMO. I think this song is too much like Falling In Love With Love from their Sings Rodgers and Hart album.

[brothadc]

I would have to disagree that the live concert performance was much better than the Ed Sullivan performance. I say that mainly because the bass player screwed up at least three times either going to a change prematurely, or going to a change that wasn't supposed to be there. The only thing I think would be considered better is that Diana didn't miss the line "That kind of love that keeps burning bright..." like she did in the Ed Sullivan performance, but on an overall level because of fewer mistakes I think the Ed Sullivan performance should be considered better. Also, Diana does not sing the word "love" twice. What she's doing is stretching the word "love" and giving it an extra syllable making it more rhythmic musically. If what she's singing were to be spelled out phonetically, it would read "Keep falling in and out of lo---ooo-wove".

[nomis]

Always been one of my favorite supremes singles for some reason Diana's interpretation of the lyrics and her energy reminds me of Garland..I don't know why but I can imagine the 1960s Judy doing the song..

[marybrewster]

Jumping in quickly on this...

The image of the group was entirely created by the ladies themselves. Motown never pushed them into the glitz and glamour or directed on how they were going to look. Mary told me it was a group decision to step up on the look - more makeup, more sequins and beads, more everything.

The image overhaul in late 1967 was the product of Michael Travis. When I interviewed him just before his death, he mentioned to me that he had always wanted to design for them and felt they needed a boost in their glamour look. As he told me "What they had was nice, but I wanted them to wow and that's exactly what I did." When the ladies were scheduled to appear on the Tennessee Ernie Ford special and he was the costume designer he saw it as an opportunity to approach them with some of his designs and the ladies loved it. From that point forward, any new gowns were designer made specifically for them.

I'm sure I'll get boo'ed for this, but I always thought that Cindy joining the group was the turning point from glitz to glam for the Supremes. New member, new name, so they had to up the game. I can't see Flo in a TCB swirl gown or a butterfly gown.

[floyjoy678]

Always been one of my favorite supremes singles for some reason Diana's interpretation of the lyrics and her energy reminds me of Garland..I don't know why but I can imagine the 1960s Judy doing the song..

I can too Nomis. I actually always thought Diana was channeling Judy for a bit there in 1967. I don't know why but especially during the period where Flo was on probation, Diana gave off a Garland vibe to me. Maybe because she was so nervous around that time lol.

[floyjoy678]

I'm sure I'll get boo'ed for this, but I always thought that Cindy joining the group was the turning point from glitz to glam for the Supremes. New member, new name, so they had to up the game. I can't see Flo in a TCB swirl gown or a butterfly gown.

Yeah I've tried to picture Flo in the TCB swirl gown with her short do and I just can't see it. I do think Flo would have rocked the black outfits from Forever Came Today on Sullivan though.

[nomis]

I can too Nomis. I actually always thought Diana was channeling Judy for a bit there in 1967. I don't know why but especially during the period where Flo was on probation, Diana gave off a Garland vibe to me. Maybe because she was so nervous around that time lol.

I like the story of when The Supremes opened for Garland at the Houston Astrodome in '65..on the day of the concert Diana kept pestering for a meet with the beloved but troubled Garland to be finally be told by an assistant " miss Garland is sleeping " to which a pushy Ross replied "well can we watch her sleep??"

[nomis]

Mary looks stunning in the short blonde tinted wig.. ordinarily she is a beautiful lady but with this look she is sensational.. Diana's wig is much better than the pics of the one she wore at the dress rehearsal..

[Ollie9]

I'm sure I'll get boo'ed for this, but I always thought that Cindy joining the group was the turning point from glitz to glam for the Supremes. New member, new name, so they had to up the game. I can't see Flo in a TCB swirl gown or a butterfly gown.

Boo lol. I think Flo would have done just fine in the glamour stakes. The difference being she and Cindy gave out such different vibes. Cindy was soft and comely, with Flo being more strident in a kind of don’t mess with me way. The only thing Flo would probably have struggled with would be the more intricate choreography.

[jim aka jtigre99]

It is a nice song, but surprisingly it charted about as well as Up The Ladder To The Roof. It just seems to not have lasted as much as a memorable Supremes song. Cindy and Mary seemed to visually compliment each other more than Flo and Mary did. Although Cindy and Flo visually resembled each other they didn't have the same manner. Either way, Flo projected an earthy and girl next door look while Cindy had a sweet yet glamourous look. Both were integral to the success of the group in their own ways. Mary looks exceptionally lovely here. Diana had seemed to start her more theatrical glamour look during this period. Still, a nice song if not a memorable one.

[TheMotownManiac]

Always been one of my favorite supremes singles for some reason Diana's interpretation of the lyrics and her energy reminds me of Garland..I don't know why but I can imagine the 1960s Judy doing the song..

this is a conversation I never thought I would see. I have always felt that a stronger voice like Martha or Gladys could have hit with this, but Judy never crossed my mind. I can hear it, however strange as it seems. This is going to be a fun discussion with my Judy friends, thank you!

[TheMotownManiac]

Boo lol. I think Flo would have done just fine in the glamour stakes. The difference being she and Cindy gave out such different vibes. Cindy was soft and comely, with Flo being more strident in a kind of don’t mess with me way. The only thing Flo would probably have struggled with would be the more intricate choreography.

I think what Florence would have brought to the group would’ve been more than made up for any shortcomings she might have had with choreography. I agree that she could’ve handled the glam, but she would’ve had to keep her weight down.

[Ollie9]

this is a conversation I never thought I would see. I have always felt that a stronger voice like Martha or Gladys could have hit with this, but Judy never crossed my mind. I can hear it, however strange as it seems. This is going to be a fun discussion with my Judy friends, thank you!

The fact they both played Dorothy in a film is about the only similarity that springs to my mind when comparing the two women lol. Well that and the fact they both have a legion of gay fans
The only Judy vibe I ever got from Diana is at the start of the “One Shining Moment” video, where she’s leaning back from the microphone wearing tight pants, a sparkly jacket and short hair. Very born in a trunk.

[sup_fan]

Boo lol. I think Flo would have done just fine in the glamour stakes. The difference being she and Cindy gave out such different vibes. Cindy was soft and comely, with Flo being more strident in a kind of don’t mess with me way. The only thing Flo would probably have struggled with would be the more intricate choreography.

yeah i have to agree with this. I think Flo would have pulled of the high-glam image fine. she would have continued her down-to-earth personality which would have still worked. they basically just gave mary all of Flo's lines in the act.

The girls were already upping their game in 66. Bob mackie designed the red sequin gowns used on R&H. then there were the silver ones from Sullivan, the navy blue ones from Andy Williams, the cream with diagonal gold & pearl stripes. So Flo could definitely pull off the high glamour

where she would have struggled would have been some of the more complex dance routines. I Get A Kick Out Of You, Sam You Made the Pants Too Long, Fats Waller medley. Cindy was simply better at the choreography.

[mysterysinger]

"In and Out of Love" is one of my favourite Diana Ross & The Supremes songs - nice and bouncy, melodic and slightly mysterious. Lovely backing and very nice lead by Diana. I'm very happy with it.

[luke]

The version that Copley posted is simply smashing. Their energy and vocals makes it a whole new song. And the crowd loved it. Electric! The band is fantastic! Diana at top of her game and you can really hear Mary.

[Roberta75]

I'm sure I'll get boo'ed for this, but I always thought that Cindy joining the group was the turning point from glitz to glam for the Supremes. New member, new name, so they had to up the game. I can't see Flo in a TCB swirl gown or a butterfly gown.

Well they can boo me as well as Diana and Mary and Cindy were my favorite grouping.

[grangertim]

Are Cindy and Mary actually singing live in this performance though? Or are they lip-synching to the Mary/Flo/Andantes backing track? It sounds like the Andantes to me, but I am not sure.

I do love the performance though. It is second only to the Fats Waller medley as my favourite Supremes’ Ed Sullivan performance.

Actually I have a question about Ed Sullivan. It was THE programme in the 1960s, and undoubtedly their performances were an important contributor to the Supremes’ chart successes. But, post 1969, the solo Diana never appeared on it. What happened? Did Ed Sullivan suddenly lose his impact and influence in 1970? [[I am not American, by the way.)

[reese]

Are Cindy and Mary actually singing live in this performance though? Or are they lip-synching to the Mary/Flo/Andan

I believe Mary and Cindy are lipsyncing to their own pre-recorded vocals.

[RanRan79]

Boo lol. I think Flo would have done just fine in the glamour stakes. The difference being she and Cindy gave out such different vibes. Cindy was soft and comely, with Flo being more strident in a kind of don’t mess with me way. The only thing Flo would probably have struggled with would be the more intricate choreography.

Ah yes, that frumpy Florence, with her off the rack Supremes dresses. She neeeevvveerrr could've pulled off the swirl gowns.

With the curves Florence had, she would've killed in those tight ass dresses.