The Hollands at Motown as independents

[Kamasu_Jr]

Have we discussed how the Holland brothers [[Brian & Eddie) went back to Motown as independent producers in the 1970s? It's mentioned briefly in the liner notes of the Supremes' The Final Sessions, but not discussed in detail. Was Motown trying to catch lightening in a bottle twice or trying to settle some of the lawsuit the Hollands & Lamont ozier had against it.

When you look back at it, the arrangement didn't produce any major hits, although the Hollands got wo work with the Supremes, the Jackson 5 plus Michael and the Temptations again. Strange they weren't paired with Diana Ross or Marvin Gaye, who was basically producing himself by 1975.

The arrangement saw some talents like Michael Lovesmith, who was signed to the Hollands, produce albums for Motown.

Were the Hollands paid upfront for their work and does anyone know how much they charged?

Lamont Dozier was also working indepepently.

What is the general opinion of the Hollands' second time at Motown? Did it add to their legacy; Or should they have stayed away?

[144man]

I can remember liking Eddie Kendricks' "Come Get the Cream Off the Top" and Diana Ross' "We Can Never Light That Old Flame Again", but somehow the old magic wasn't there without Lamont Dozier.

[Glenpwood]

I thought they did work with Diana, it just got shelved. Isn't Water Don't Burn on the "Diana" Deluxe Edition a Holland production?

The Hollands second term at Motown is bound to seem slight by comparison to their sixties run but that's only because the sheer amount of classics they produced during that first go round. Granted, "High Energy" is no "Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart" but it's still a great song and was in the right pocket sonically for its era. It's like picking apart every new Paul McCartney album and saying there's no "Yesterday" here even if theres plenty of quality material on it.

[bradsupremes]

I always thought some of the Holland brothers work in the 70's return to Motown had potential to be big hits. Michael Jackson's "We're Almost There" and the Supremes' "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" have certain quality about them that say number one hit. They're both outstanding songs and I think the reason why they didn't climb higher on the charts was due to the fact that Motown wasn't pushing the singles. I think if Motown really threw themselves behind those two songs, both Michael and the Supremes would have had big hits.

[telekin]

I also thought the Hollands, Brian Holland particularly, were very underrated as producers during this time. Aside from the Supremes stuff, which I love, there was a lot of other good stuff like the album he did for Jr. Walker: Hot Shot, Moving Violation by the J5, as well as I Can't Go On Living Without Your Love for Thelma Houston and some of the tracks they did for Three Ounces of Love [[ie. "I've Got A Right To Be Loved" in a very latter day Supremes style). I don't think they should have stayed away. They may not had any massive hits, but at least they put out some strong material that we can still look to and appreciate today. I thought it was fitting that The Supremes ended up going out with [[part of) the same team that really brought them in..

Personally, what I'm curious about is how they were still able to promote themselves as Holland-Dozier-Holland productions, when Lamont Dozier was no longer involved. I know on Supremes '75 at least, credit is given to Holland-Dozier-Holland productions first [[ie. produced by Holland-Dozier-Holland productions, producer: Brian Holland) to trade on the HDH name recognition, even if it was slightly misleading. To this day, I still hear/read people wrongly refer to the Supremes' disco material as HDH productions.

[smark21]

Could one argue that in the 60's, HDH were setting trends in pop and r and B music production, but in the mid 70's, it seems they were trying to keep up with what was current, rather than setting the standard?

[telekin]

Could one argue that in the 60's, HDH were setting trends in pop and r and B music production, but in the mid 70's, it seems they were trying to keep up with what was current, rather than setting the standard?

I think that's a legitimate argument. I'd say that even if they weren't the trendsetters that they once were, they still put out very good, if not excellent product. I'd probably extend that argument to the entire Motown label at the time, as well. The Holland Brothers weren't the golden boys that they once were, but by the same token, Motown wasn't the label that it once was either.

From the 70's onward, it seems Motown was always a bit slow to catch on to new trends [[which left the label in dire straits by the time of its sale in 1988). Disco was one example of this. While there were a lot of good dance records [[and significant disco hits) on the label, Motown still lagged early on, and from what I can tell, never really promoted them with the same creativity and force that labels like Casablanca, Prelude or Salsoul and majors like Atlantic were able to. Even though there were many great records on Motown, along with some major hits in the late 70's/early 80's, they were never as influential as they were in the 60's.

[daddyacey]

I can agree with what both "smark 21" and "telikin" have posted.
The return of HDH to Motown ,IMO was like ..[[now use your imagination) , you was having mega sex and you stopped to go to the bathroom. It's damn near impossible to get that groove back. Know what I'm saying? The whole lawsuit and Invictus/Hot Wax issues and the passage of time and change in the music played a big part in the going back to the recapture or continue the" just as great as what it was" idea. That however does not take away from the fact that HDH could not or did not produce quality product the second time around. It only shows in retrospect how Berry's failure to provide them with a sub label within MOTOWN was a major mistake. The fact that HDH did have the sucsess they did have with INVICTUS/HOT WAX without the support of MOTOWN and would have had more of a chance to survive with being a part of MOTOWN ,shows that I.M.O. The second time around does not always work out to being sucsessful results. Especially when both parties were the pioneers of the original state of the art at one time and others have come along and emulated as well as added to what you have created. I always believe that it is hard to out do yourself. The curse that comes with being a pioneer or being #1 at anything is that as just being #1 ,there is always that M.F. out there looking to equal and or top you. That's the nature of any game.

[theboyfromxtown]

Did you guys pick up on the Mavis Staples album. Loved it

I bought all those subsequent releases Boyz of Detroit, Cassandra, Rick Littleton, Bryan Carter, Liquid Heat etc

[reese]

Did you guys pick up on the Mavis Staples album. Loved it

I bought all those subsequent releases Boyz of Detroit, Cassandra, Rick Littleton, Bryan Carter, Liquid Heat etc

The Mavis Staples project had some good tracks on it. In the US, only LOVE GONE BAD was issued at the time [[1984). The rest of the material wasn't released until the 90s when she became somewhat popular again with her Prince material. Was it released in the 80s in the UK?

[theboyfromxtown]

Not to my knowledge Reese. I got the 45 when it was out and then, as you say, the album followed a long time later.

But by that time, US Brits could get US releases almost as easy as domestic releases. I only remember the Liquid Heat being a hard album to find but my US pals were always good to me and found it after a determined search.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Could one argue that in the 60's, HDH were setting trends in pop and r and B music production, but in the mid 70's, it seems they were trying to keep up with what was current, rather than setting the standard?

Interesting points. I had forgotten some of the other songs, the Hollands produced for Motown like Get the Cream Off The Top. Their songwriting and production had changed so radically by 1875 that it's hard to believe they were the same guys who wrote and produced Stop! In the Name Of Love, Ask the Lonely and Reflections. Tunes like Get the Cream Off the Top were very bold sexually and explicit. Maybe it had to do with the times or the absence of Lamont Dozier?
I'd still like to know who was involved in the Holland's returning to work at Motown?
Was Berry Gordy still involved on a daily basis or did they return because someone else was in charge?
Intersting that Motown did not solidly promote and of the Hollands' seventies productions. As Smark21 and Telekin said, maybe it was because the Hollands and Motown no longer dominated popular music in 1975-76, the way they had in 1965.

[chestersong]

i didn't know the Hollands had been writing songs since "1875"; what a nice long career the style you speak of must explain why the supremes went from singing "la la la" on "Ask Any Girl" to a grunting and a groaning on "Sweet Dream Machine", alternate version!

[motown01]

What's the story with 'We Can Never Light That Old Flame Again'? Was it released to capitalize on the success of another RCA single release?

[theboyfromxtown]

Kamasu

Do you recall that well publicised picture of HDH versus Norman Whitfield - Four Tops versus The Temptations?

I would guess, My Gordy wasn't too far away.

[reese]

What's the story with 'We Can Never Light That Old Flame Again'? Was it released to capitalize on the success of another RCA single release?

I read that it was recorded in 1978. But from the sound of Diana's voice, I would say it's a few years earlier. It was released in 1982, in between Diana's RCA singles WORK THAT BODY and MUSCLES.

[mysterysinger]

What I find remarkable is the range of artists they produced during that period. Again I'd like to find out what the mechanism was for the Holland's involvement because things were different in LA weren't they? Who at Motown would have commissioned them to work with, for example, the Dynamic Superiors or Thelma Houston?

[BayouMotownMan]

The way I remember it, the Holland's returned to Motown as part of a legal settlement over past royalties. HDH declared bankruptcy on Invictus. Lamont Dozier declined to accompany them and signed with Dunhill as a solo artist. He had some limited success.

Back at Motown, they still made high quality music and DJs took interest in the Supremes again when they were paired like in the 60s. But success was limited as music was changing. Brian Holland was the main producer and he tried to follow the disco trend but it wasn't commercial. I remember a nearly 10 minute disco remake of Nowhere To Run by the Dynamic Superiors, was pretty awful.

It wasn't long before Eddie Holland started with lawsuits again which continued until Gordy sold Motown and the Hollands departed again by 1980

[jsmith]

Motown's A&R team had lost the plot by the mid 70's. Good acts they had were neglected or sent down the disco cul-de-sac. Lots of great potential left unrealised during those years [[1975 thru to the 80's). Guess the Hollands MIGHT have achieved more if they had been given different direction, but Motown was floundering by the time they returned.
Motown was just following trends during those years [[no longer creating original music -- the acts that did do well for them were generally doing 'their own thing').
Lamont Dozier was a different story. His 70's solo stuff was great [[but had no Motown connection).

[mysterysinger]

Lamont Dozier was a different story. His 70's solo stuff was great [[but had no Motown connection).

But oddly Lamont Dozier was also drafted in to produce an album on The Originals called "California Sunset" in 1975. So presumably this would have been part of the same deal that brought the Hollands back to Motown.

Later, too, Lamont had 2 albums out of Motown standards done in his way - "Reflections Of" 2004 and "Reimagination" 2018.

[1382hitsville]

On wiki:

"In 1967, H-D-H entered into a dispute with Berry Gordy Jr. over profit-sharing and royalties.[1] Eddie Holland had the others stage a work slowdown and, by early 1968, the trio had left the label.[1] They started their own labels, Invictus Records and Hot Wax Records, which were modestly successful.[1] When Motown sued for breach of contract, H-D-H countersued. The subsequent litigation was one of the longest legal battles in music industry history. Because they were legally contracted to Motown's publishing arm, Jobete, they could not use their own names on songs they wrote, and their material was credited to Wayne-Dunbar. Edith Wayne was a friend of the Holland family, and Ron Dunbar was an associate who was a songwriter and producer.[5] The lawsuit was settled in 1977.

Dozier left Holland–Dozier–Holland Productions, Inc. [[HDHP) in 1973 and resumed his career as a solo performing artist.[1] In 1975, HDHP and Invictus Records sued Dozier and 31 others, claiming conspiracy to restrain trade and other charges. The suit was dismissed by a federal judge in 1982.[6] From the mid-1970s onwards, HDHP, with Harold Beatty replacing Dozier, wrote and produced songs for a number of artists. HDHP even worked on material for Motown artists in the 1970s, including The Supremes and Michael Jackson, while its litigation against the company was still pending. Dozier commented in 2008, "The lawsuit was just our way of taking care of business that needed to be taken care of—just like Berry Gordy had to take care of his business which resulted in the lawsuit. Business is business, love is love."[7]

Dozier had his own production company and continued to work as a solo artist, producer and recording artist, while the Holland Brothers own HDH Records and Productions [[without any participation from Dozier), which issues recordings from the Invictus and Hot Wax catalogs as well as new material.[1]"

[jobucats]

First of all, I have searched and looked at the archives for the answer to this question; however, I was unsuccessful.

Regarding Brian Holland, Lamont Dozier, and Eddie Holland, what was each person's strength [[area of expertise) in their songwriting and producing?

From an 3 year old interview I recently saw, it was implied to me that Eddie was more of the lyricist and Brian was more of the actual production guru. That leaves Lamont?
Which one was probably the go-to for the melodies; and which one came up with the chord structures and the rhythmic motifs?

And am I correct that its Brian and Lamont who were the actual producers...at least the credit was mostly given to them? ...Thanks

[jsmith]

While Lamont didn't usually arrange / produce his 70's solo tracks, he did write a lot of the songs single handed [[or at least they were only credited to him as the writer).

[MIKEW-UK]

From Lamont's autobiography "How sweet it is".

Eddie had a good voice, but he suffered from stage fright. He liked making records, but he didn’t really want to go out on the road because he didn’t enjoy getting up in front of a crowd and being an entertainer. He wanted to stay in the game, but he wanted to stay home. Eddie could see that Brian and I had our hands full with keeping up with the demand for new material, so he proposed to Brian that he permanently join our team to take up some of the slack. Not only that, but Eddie had worked out a system for exactly how to structure our partnership. Brian usually worked on music, while I worked on both lyrics and music. Under Eddie’s plan, I would be the idea man. I’d bring in a lyrical concept and Brian and I would develop a piece of music around it. Once we had a title or a chorus lyric or a framework mapped out, we’d hand off the song to Eddie to finish the lyrics. That way we could move on to the next song while he completed and fine-tuned the words. If Motown was a hit factory, we could be a factory within a factory. It would make the team of Holland-Dozier-Holland more efficient because we could churn out more work but keep quality high. That idea was the birth of Holland-Dozier-Holland. Eddie taught himself to be a great lyricist, so I didn’t have to worry about that side of the equation. He learned the craft and worked on writing and rewriting until Brian and I were satisfied. The three of us were a songwriting team while Brian and I continued to work as a duo on the production side. We’d finalize the song and cut the master while Eddie was working on the lyrics. It was very rare that the three of us would sit down in a room together and create a song from beginning to end. Instead, Eddie would go away and do his thing, so Brian and I could go back in the studio to come up with more ideas. Then Eddie would come in and sing the vocal on the track as a guide for the artist who would later record it. Brian was all music, Eddie was all lyrics, and I was the idea man who bridged both. It was that division of labor that was the secret to our success, and it became the template by which we functioned for the rest of our years at Motown together.

[Quinn]

With the exception of "Peddlin' Music On The Side" and "Bittersweet", he usually did produce his solo projects. Legal issues with the Holland's regarding his leaving Invictus caused him to have to protect his copyrights through using different names. By 1975, he was finally able to take credit for his work.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

Im surprised to hear that Eddie didn't like performing live on stage. After all of those years performing live with The Temptations, you would think he'd be used to it by then. Then, again, performing solo on stage is a whole other ballgame compared to performing with a group. I really can't blame him.

[MIKEW-UK]

Eddie Holland didn't like performing. Eddie Kendricks had no issues with it.

[snakepit]

Im surprised to hear that Eddie didn't like performing live on stage. After all of those years performing live with The Temptations, you would think he'd be used to it by then. Then, again, performing solo on stage is a whole other ballgame compared to performing with a group. I really can't blame him.

You've got your Eddie's mixed up.

[jobucats]

Thank you, MIKEW-UK, for sharing that excerpt from Mr. Dozier's book which answered my questions about the strengths/roles of each of the Holland-Dozier-Team.
As a side note, although their favorites may vary from interview to interview, it was interesting that, in the 3 year old interview I recently saw, Eddie and Lamont listed "I Hear a Symphony", "Love is Here and Now You're Gone", and "Bernadette" as their favorite productions. It is important to note; however, that they were somewhat reluctant to name those three as their favoritesfavorites [[just as one would never have a favorite child, lol)

[MIKEW-UK]

Lamont autobiography:

"est acts in the world. We followed up “You Can’t Hurry Love” with “You Keep Me Hangin’ On.” That provided a great opportunity to experiment in the recording studio. My dad used to listen to Walter Winchell’s news bulletins on the radio, and I remembered that staccato alert sound that preceded the announcement of the news. I got the idea to try to replicate that with guitars. We usually used three guitars on our sessions, but we got four guitarists and had them all play that opening pattern in unison. I thought that would be a cool way for us to sonically say, “Hey, pay attention!” I guess it worked since it became a number-one hit for The Supremes. Then it became a Top 10 hit for Vanilla Fudge the following year. Then it became a number-one hit once again when Kim Wilde recorded it twenty years later. A few years after that, country artist Reba McEntire cut a version of it that shot up the Billboard Hot Dance Club Play chart. I think that’s probably one of my favorite songs in our catalog because of the way it has continued to resonate with different people through different versions for different generations over all these years".

[MIKEW-UK]

Lamont"

Unfortunately, our next couple of singles for Martha and the Vandellas didn’t do as well as our first ones. “Live Wire” probably pushed the “Heat Wave” and “Quicksand” formula a little too far. We cut that song twice for some reason but ended up going with the first version after all. I probably should have listened to my gut that we needed to do something different, but there was a lot of pressure on us to keep cranking out hits. It did OK, but it didn’t make the Top 10 on the R&B chart or the Top 40 on the pop chart. I was much more disappointed when the follow-up, “In My Lonely Room,” didn’t fare much better. We did get an R&B Top 10 on it, but it did a little worse on the pop chart than “Live Wire.” That one has always been one of my favorite Holland-Dozier-Holland songs. I really like the melody and the feeling of the chords. I mentioned that we often wrote happy-sounding upbeat music to go along with sad lyrics, but the way it actually worked was that I would come in with a sad idea, and Brian and I would write the melody as a ballad. Then, once we were finished, we’d speed it up to give it that pop feel. If you slow down some of those feel-good Holland-Dozier-Holland hits, you realize a lot of them are hurtin’ songs. “In My Lonely Room” is a prime example.

[MIKEW-UK]

Lamont autobiography:

Unfortunately, our next couple of singles for Martha and the Vandellas didn’t do as well as our first ones. “Live Wire” probably pushed the “Heat Wave” and “Quicksand” formula a little too far. We cut that song twice for some reason but ended up going with the first version after all. I probably should have listened to my gut that we needed to do something different, but there was a lot of pressure on us to keep cranking out hits. It did OK, but it didn’t make the Top 10 on the R&B chart or the Top 40 on the pop chart. I was much more disappointed when the follow-up, “In My Lonely Room,” didn’t fare much better. We did get an R&B Top 10 on it, but it did a little worse on the pop chart than “Live Wire.” That one has always been one of my favorite Holland-Dozier-Holland songs. I really like the melody and the feeling of the chords. I mentioned that we often wrote happy-sounding upbeat music to go along with sad lyrics, but the way it actually worked was that I would come in with a sad idea, and Brian and I would write the melody as a ballad. Then, once we were finished, we’d speed it up to give it that pop feel. If you slow down some of those feel-good Holland-Dozier-Holland hits, you realize a lot of them are hurtin’ songs. “In My Lonely Room” is a prime example.