What if Kim Weston hadn't left Motown?

[rovereab]

I'm just listening to some of the unreleased tracks by Marvin and Kim, i.e. Too Much To Hope For and That'll Be The Day. It's got me wondering several Kim related points:

* Would Marvin and Tammi have happened if Kim had stayed at Motown?
* Would there have been a run of Marvin and Kim duet albums?
* Would Kim have had a successful solo career at Motown on the back of It Takes Two?

I realise it's all theoretical but I wonder if other SDFers have any thoughts on this?

Season's Greetings to all.

[motony]

Kim Weston was married to Mickey Stevenson & it was really HE leaving Motown & signing production deal with MGM that sparked her exit which I think was already in the works when "It Takes Two" hit big.

[Motown Eddie]

Good questions! I suggest that if Kim Weston had stayed at Motown there would've been more duets [and more duet albums] with Marvin Gaye on the back of "It Takes Two" [and as a result, we might not have had the classic duets with Tammi Terrell]. And Kim could've had a bigger solo career provided she got another killer song like "Take Me In Your Arms [Rock Me A Little While]".

[Motown Eddie]

I also suggest that William 'Mickey' Stevenson would've stayed at Motown if he began to see some major successes for his then wife, Kim Weston.

[motony]

I don't think Kim Westons' success was Mickeys' priority.

[BayouMotownMan]

I don't think Kim Westons' success was Mickeys' priority.

Kim and Mickey both knew Gordy's sights were set on Diana and the Supremes, Kim's priority was behind Martha, the Marvelettes and Gladys Knight and that her chances for stardom at Motown were slim.

[drlorne]

Kim has such a great voice and when I listen to her, she's very comfortable with what she can do with her instrument. She sings like her voice is an instrument that she can mold and she's just so good at it. And she's never screechy or out of her range.

[drlorne]

I was always curious as to why she didn't get more attention because of her obvious talent and wondered if maybe she was difficult to work with.

[Philles/Motown Gary]

I've always loved Kim Weston's Motown recordings. To this day, I can't understand for the life of me why "Helpless" wasn't a huge hit. It had 1966 HDH stamped all over it, and it was the perfect follow-up to "Take Me In Your Arms", yet nothing. My local AM radio station, WGVA [[Geneva, NY), played tons of Motown throughout the '60s including Kim's "Take Me In Your Arms", and "It Takes Two" with Marvin, but I don't remember them ever playing "Helpless". In fact, I had never even heard of "Helpless" until the release of the LP "A Collection Of 16 Original Big Hits [[Vol. 6)" in 1967. I do remember reading in one of the many Motown books that Berry Gordy had expressed frustration in not knowing what to do with Kim's voice. She had so many great records, but so few hits. It's a shame because, to me, Kim's records were every bit as good as her fellow Motown artists' recordings. She deserved hit status for all of her chart entries.

[Boogiedown]

I've always loved Kim Weston's Motown recordings. To this day, I can't understand for the life of me why "Helpless" wasn't a huge hit. It had 1966 HDH stamped all over it, and it was the perfect follow-up to "Take Me In Your Arms", yet nothing. My local AM radio station, WGVA [[Geneva, NY), played tons of Motown throughout the '60s including Kim's "Take Me In Your Arms", and "It Takes Two" with Marvin, but I don't remember them ever playing "Helpless". In fact, I had never even heard of "Helpless" until the release of the LP "A Collection Of 16 Original Big Hits [[Vol. 6)" in 1967. I do remember reading in one of the many Motown books that Berry Gordy had expressed frustration in not knowing what to do with Kim's voice. She had so many great records, but so few hits. It's a shame because, to me, Kim's records were every bit as good as her fellow Motown artists' recordings. She deserved hit status for all of her chart entries.

Familiar sounding and immediately likable ! Likely just gets better:






and the winner is ..... !.....?

[Boogiedown]

I had the amazing opportunity to talk to her a few times by phone and the overall impression I got was that Kim was a lady who was most proud of her community work. She seems to not have any bitterness about her years at Motown and in fact, would rather talk about the work she was doing at the time for military veterans to give them the recognition she felt they weren't receiving.
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nice !

[Motown Eddie]

Kim and Mickey both knew Gordy's sights were set on Diana and the Supremes, Kim's priority was behind Martha, the Marvelettes and Gladys Knight and that her chances for stardom at Motown were slim.

I have to agree with you there. Also add that Kim Weston would've been behind Tammi Terrell in the company's 'pecking order' since Tammi quickly became a star at Motown thanks to her hits with Marvin Gaye.

[motony]

Tammi never had a solo hit, I bought & loved both of her solo releases but they only made it to #25 on the Soul Charts & #80 on the Hot 100. Kims biggest solo record was "Take Me In Your Arms" # 4 Soul Charts & #50 Hot 100. Brenda had 2 actual hits, although I loved & bought all her Motown 45's. Motown did NOT promote any solo female singer after Mary Wells left the company in May 1964 until Diana Ross went solo in 1970.

[copley]

Blinky, Chris, Brenda, Kim, Carolyn, Barbara R, Tammi [[solo wise) were all pushed aside for one reason and one reason alone. Does not take a genius to figure that one out!

[SatansBlues]

Blinky, Chris, Brenda, Kim, Carolyn, Barbara R, Tammi [[solo wise) were all pushed aside for one reason and one reason alone. Does not take a genius to figure that one out!

I disagree. People seem to either forget or ignore the fact that other groups besides the Supremes were very successful between 64-70. The Miracles, The Temptations, The Four Tops, Jr. Walker & The All Stars, Marth & The Vandellas, the Marvelettes, along with Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder. All those groups had multiple top 40 hits during the height of the Supremes success.

[jobeterob]

[QUOTE=SatansBlues;677053]I disagree. People seem to either forget or ignore the fact that other groups besides the Supremes were very successful between 64-70. The Miracles, The Temptations, The Four Tops, Jr. Walker & The All Stars, Marth & The Vandellas, the Marvelettes, along with Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder. All those groups had multiple top 40 hits during the height of the Supremes success.

Kim might have been more successful if she’d stayed at Motown - just like everyone else who left, they rarely saw greater success - outside of Michael Jackson and Gladys Knight

Very few of the huskier voiced female singers were big successes - you needed a higher pitch like Aretha Franklin. The 60’s was the group era; the 70’s were the era of the singer songwriter

[robb_k]

I hated when Mary Wells left, but was glad that the next several songs that would have gone to her went to Brenda Holloway. Had Kim remained with Motown a few years longer, I wonder which great songs would have gone to her after "Helpless"? Which singer[[s) got the songs that would have gone to her? Would she still have been singing Stevenson-Hunter and HDH songs, or would she have gotten songs written by other writing teams, like Dean-Weatherspoon, or Fuqua-Bristol, or gone back to Smokey? I certain of one thing, I would have liked the sound of her songs better had she remained with Motown [[at least through 1969, or so).

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

"Fancy Meeting You Here" points the way Kim could have developed at Motown. It's really an adult song though; it's wit and sophistication would have been lost on Top 40 Radio. I class it with the Marvelettes' "I Can't Turn Around"; both songs allowed their singers to display a maturity that would have been right at home on 70's radio amongst songs by Carole King and Carly Simon.

[copley]

I disagree. People seem to either forget or ignore the fact that other groups besides the Supremes were very successful between 64-70. The Miracles, The Temptations, The Four Tops, Jr. Walker & The All Stars, Marth & The Vandellas, the Marvelettes, along with Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder. All those groups had multiple top 40 hits during the height of the Supremes success.

Why are you disagreeing, we are not taking about groups here? Of course I'm well aware that many groups had success but this is about Motown female artists, especially Kim. After Mary left [[silly Mary) Motown never had another major solo female act in the '60's and I include Brenda in that who had more unreleased material than you could imagine. The fact is that all the ladies I mentioned with perhaps the exception of Carolyn & Barbara R had multiple recordings vaulted and all had amazing talent but Gordy did not promote them! Why? What exactly was the point in signing them, having them record day & night and then not release or promote their material. It still does not make sense to me.

[SatansBlues]

Why are you disagreeing, we are not taking about groups here? Of course I'm well aware that many groups had success but this is about Motown female artists, especially Kim. After Mary left [[silly Mary) Motown never had another major solo female act in the '60's and I include Brenda in that who had more unreleased material than you could imagine. The fact is that all the ladies I mentioned with perhaps the exception of Carolyn & Barbara R had multiple recordings vaulted and all had amazing talent but Gordy did not promote them! Why? What exactly was the point in signing them, having them record day & night and then not release or promote their material. It still does not make sense to me.

It wasn't just female solo artists but also other groups and male solo artists that had to "wait their turn" for promotion. In Martha Reeve's autobiography, Confessions of a Motown Diva, she recounts where during Motown's European tour in '65 she complained about all the attention that the Supremes were getting at the time. And I believe it was Bobby Rodgers of the Miracles who told her that it was just the Supreme's turn for Motown's big push, just like Motown had pushed both the Miracles and Martha & The Vandellas.

In regards to promotion I don't see where Motown made a distinction between solo acts and groups. If an act caught fire and had a big record then naturally they got more of a promotional push from Motown. Just glancing thru any volume of TCMS you will see the number of acts signed to Motown that just never broke out and had successful records. Both female solo artists, male solo artists, and male and female groups.

And if my memory is correct, Brenda Holloway is the only solo female artists to have any Top 40 hits after Mary Well's My Guy in '64 up until Reach Out in Touch in 1970. When I'm Gone peaked at #25 in '65 and You've Made Me So Very Happy peaked at #39 in 1967. No other solo female artists had any songs that made the Top 40. But please correct me if I missed a song.

[Motown Eddie]

I hated when Mary Wells left, but was glad that the next several songs that would have gone to her went to Brenda Holloway. Had Kim remained with Motown a few years longer, I wonder which great songs would have gone to her after "Helpless"? Which singer[[s) got the songs that would have gone to her? Would she still have been singing Stevenson-Hunter and HDH songs, or would she have gotten songs written by other writing teams, like Dean-Weatherspoon, or Fuqua-Bristol, or gone back to Smokey? I certain of one thing, I would have liked the sound of her songs better had she remained with Motown [[at least through 1969, or so).

I suggest that if Kim Weston had stayed with Motown, she would've had to turn to songs by other writers & producers on the label's roster like Fuqua/Bristol, Dean/Weatherspoon, Ashford/Simpson or Smokey [since both Mickey Stevenson & H-D-H were leaving the company in 1967]. And like you, I would've liked to see what Kim could've done with The Motown Sound as it moved into the late '60s.

[bradsupremes]

Going off what others discussed earlier, but it always struck me that Motown didn't promote its solo women artists in the 60s. They had no problem with promoting both the male soloists and guy groups [[Marvin, Stevie, Edwin Starr, Jimmy Ruffin, Four Tops, Temptations) and yet for the women, after Mary Wells left it was if Motown couldn't juggle pushing both the women soloists and girl groups. I think the eventual solo path for Diana had a lot to do with it and Berry didn't want competition for her on the label, but in 1965 and 1966, was it so difficult to really push "Take Me In Your Arms [[Rock Me A Little While)" or Brenda's "Just Look What You Done" to go top 10. Was it really going to threaten Diana/Supremes that much? This is one area where I wish Gordy could have lightened up a bit on his Diana goals and allowed other women at the label to get some of the spotlight.

[TheMotownManiac]

I don’t think we know exactly what kind of effort was put behind other females that Motown. What we do know is that the fortunes of the Supremes, Motown, and the civil rights movement improved 1000,000 fold between August and December 1964. We aren’t talking about a group getting a hit record, we are talking about a phenomenon. And phenomenons get support. I’m sure there were many acts at Capitol records complaining because the Beatles got all the support. Who are they supposed to support, the dog pause? There wasn’t any female at Motown that could compete with diana ross, let alone the Supremes. Ross had that magic gold dust, and with her superb talents and stage personalities a Florence Ballard an Mary Wilson . I don’t want to say anything disparaging about any other groups, but no other girl group could compare. And I absolutely do not believe that Kim Weston or Brenda or Gladys or Martha had any chance of disturbing the gold dust surrounding the Supremes. I do not believe that Barry Gordy continue design female artists just so he could put halfhearted attempt behind them because he had nothing better to do with his time. The man was pulling his hair out half the time , there was no way Motown was prepared to deal with the success of not only the Supremes, but the gigantic success of the Temptations and the tops. It may 1964 Gordy was delighted to have a number one record with Mary Wells. A year later he had seven more number ones on three different acts and their albums were doing well. There was only so much material at Motown, only so many producers. Holland Dozier Holland couldn’t work with everybody so they concentrated on the Supremes and the Four Tops because that’s who was paying the bills. The incredible album success of the Supremes dictated that they deserved all the attention they got. There’s not another female artist at Motown whoever rivaled their album success. Not even after they left Motown when competition was no longer an excuse. I believe wholeheartedly Gordy would have loved for Brenda to be a number one selling artist , ditto Martha and The Marvelettes and Gladys. I don’t believe that he signed Gladys Knight and the pips in 1966 to take a Chitlin circuit group going nowhere, to keep them going nowhere. It’s completely irrational. There were lots of R&B groups that Motown never touched , who may have been very talented and just didn’t get the brakes. He took Gladys Knight, unknown to the majority of America, and made her a household name. by the time she left Motown, she had a ton of television exposure including several appearances on Ed Sullivan, had played the COPA, had sold millions of records and she still squawking about not getting enough attention. She left Motown was a gigantic pop and soul hit that won her first Grammy, and her highest charting album of her entire career. Barry Gordy had to beg her to record if I were your woman because he knew it was perfect for her. That does not sound to me like he was afraid of competition for his fledgling new female star diana ross. I just don’t buy it, I could be wrong, but I don’t buy it. It makes a nice headline though, “I wound up in the gutter because of diana ross”

[TheMotownManiac]

I'm just listening to some of the unreleased tracks by Marvin and Kim, i.e. Too Much To Hope For and That'll Be The Day. It's got me wondering several Kim related points:

* Would Marvin and Tammi have happened if Kim had stayed at Motown?
* Would there have been a run of Marvin and Kim duet albums?
* Would Kim have had a successful solo career at Motown on the back of It Takes Two?

I realise it's all theoretical but I wonder if other SDFers have any thoughts on this?

Season's Greetings to all.

what a great topic! I think Marvin and Kim, two stellar voices, sound so good together, I believe they could have had continued success if they got the right material. The problem is Motown had more acts than they did hit material. Mikie Stevenson was good but, very hit and miss.
what really worries me about this scenario is: what would’ve happened to Ashford and Simpson if they didn’t have their successes with Marvin and Tammi? Maybe they would’ve wound up with Marvin and Kym, maybe they wouldn’t of had great success and moved on To another label, who would’ve produced Rosses solo album? There is so much a ripple effect to all of these decisions, it’s mine boggling. Maybe we never would’ve even heard of Tammi Terrel if those songs had gone to Marvin and Kim. An amazing talent like that floundering because of the success of it takes two.

I think Kym could’ve had a successful solo career at Motown if there was material available, because that’s what kept Martha and Gladys from having more success. Gladys Knight is one of the great voices of all time in my opinion, but even she couldn’t make top 10 records out of some of the crap they gave her to record. The Supremes were suffering also. Somethings you never get used to, the composer??? Single releases??? Look at some of the awful tracks that wound up on their post HDH albums. Or worse, some of the dogs on the Supremes in Temptations duets.

I love Kim’s voice, but it takes more than that to be a success. Queen Mary Wells found out.

‘’great topic!

[WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance]

I don’t think we know exactly what kind of effort was put behind other females that Motown. What we do know is that the fortunes of the Supremes, Motown, and the civil rights movement improved 1000,000 fold between August and December 1964. We aren’t talking about a group getting a hit record, we are talking about a phenomenon. And phenomenons get support. I’m sure there were many acts at Capitol records complaining because the Beatles got all the support. Who are they supposed to support, the dog pause? There wasn’t any female at Motown that could compete with diana ross, let alone the Supremes. Ross had that magic gold dust, and with her superb talents and stage personalities a Florence Ballard an Mary Wilson . I don’t want to say anything disparaging about any other groups, but no other girl group could compare. And I absolutely do not believe that Kim Weston or Brenda or Gladys or Martha had any chance of disturbing the gold dust surrounding the Supremes. I do not believe that Barry Gordy continue design female artists just so he could put halfhearted attempt behind them because he had nothing better to do with his time. The man was pulling his hair out half the time , there was no way Motown was prepared to deal with the success of not only the Supremes, but the gigantic success of the Temptations and the tops. It may 1964 Gordy was delighted to have a number one record with Mary Wells. A year later he had seven more number ones on three different acts and their albums were doing well. There was only so much material at Motown, only so many producers. Holland Dozier Holland couldn’t work with everybody so they concentrated on the Supremes and the Four Tops because that’s who was paying the bills. The incredible album success of the Supremes dictated that they deserved all the attention they got. There’s not another female artist at Motown whoever rivaled their album success. Not even after they left Motown when competition was no longer an excuse. I believe wholeheartedly Gordy would have loved for Brenda to be a number one selling artist , ditto Martha and The Marvelettes and Gladys. I don’t believe that he signed Gladys Knight and the pips in 1966 to take a Chitlin circuit group going nowhere, to keep them going nowhere. It’s completely irrational. There were lots of R&B groups that Motown never touched , who may have been very talented and just didn’t get the brakes. He took Gladys Knight, unknown to the majority of America, and made her a household name. by the time she left Motown, she had a ton of television exposure including several appearances on Ed Sullivan, had played the COPA, had sold millions of records and she still squawking about not getting enough attention. She left Motown was a gigantic pop and soul hit that won her first Grammy, and her highest charting album of her entire career. Barry Gordy had to beg her to record if I were your woman because he knew it was perfect for her. That does not sound to me like he was afraid of competition for his fledgling new female star diana ross. I just don’t buy it, I could be wrong, but I don’t buy it. It makes a nice headline though, “I wound up in the gutter because of diana ross”

I like what I just read. Some very rational points were made.