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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Funny you say no one is providing a source to "sink Mary", yet you go on to assume she was asked about what she wanted for the album and got a "blank stare". Where was that documented?

    I think Mary's fault was trusting Motown would take care of her, as they did in the 60's. Motown, Berry, HDH, and others knew what course to take the Supremes. What sound was hot. What lyrics work. It was a promotional machine. Mary probably hoped the same would work for her solo career. It didn't.
    I do have sources, but they’ve asked not to be disclosed.

    Seriously, if you reread my post you’ll see language like “ I bet’, ‘I suspect’ … similar to your using words like “think” and ‘probably’ in your thoughts.

    I don’t have the answers and am offering my speculations like anyone else.
    Others may have it spot on, just asking for verification of certain claims of some sort if they exist. Otherwise , like mine , pontification is just fine, I find it quite an interesting situation Mary was faced with.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I wonder if Mary had secured a label across the pond for her debut if things might have turned out differently. In the States, even after 15 years with the Supremes, I don't know how recognizable her name was. In the UK however, Mary seemed to be the toast of the town. I think she even eluded that fans overseas, even in the 80's and 90's, had a greater appreciation for her. Not to say we didn't love our Mary here, but think about groups like the Three Degrees; just as popular today in Japan as 40 years ago.
    It's an interesting scenario, but I think Mary debuting on Motown makes sense for what it was: a settlement. But when Motown booted her out with her GD tracks, seems like it might have been a good idea to even reach out to Gus himself, being from the UK, and see what he could do. Perhaps had she been able to make something happen there, then it's possible her UK success may have spread to the US.

    One of Mary's problems was that she had no guidance. Diana excelled in the 70s because she had guidance, someone with know how behind her. When she ditched that at RCA...well we see what happened. Diana's RCA tenure wasn't a complete bust because by that point she was already a superstar. Can you imagine a Diana Ross career post Supremes if she was in charge of the whole thing herself? Yikes! Mary wasn't any more or less self aware as an artist as Diana was and she needed someone with music business smarts to get the job done. She didn't have that. If she did, perhaps the UK scenario you posed would have been on the table.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    It's an interesting scenario, but I think Mary debuting on Motown makes sense for what it was: a settlement. But when Motown booted her out with her GD tracks, seems like it might have been a good idea to even reach out to Gus himself, being from the UK, and see what he could do. Perhaps had she been able to make something happen there, then it's possible her UK success may have spread to the US.

    One of Mary's problems was that she had no guidance. Diana excelled in the 70s because she had guidance, someone with know how behind her. When she ditched that at RCA...well we see what happened. Diana's RCA tenure wasn't a complete bust because by that point she was already a superstar. Can you imagine a Diana Ross career post Supremes if she was in charge of the whole thing herself? Yikes! Mary wasn't any more or less self aware as an artist as Diana was and she needed someone with music business smarts to get the job done. She didn't have that. If she did, perhaps the UK scenario you posed would have been on the table.
    Yes your comment that Mary wasn’t any more self-aware than Diana is sort of my point about the blank stare statement.
    You would think [or rather I would think] that someone who’s been singing for 25 years and more would have a collection of songs that they favored or enjoyed singing or always wish they could sing and then when the opportunity finally comes that you’re going to put your name on your own record - to not have any input, to not jump at the chance, that strikes me as odd.
    And I think it’s correct that Diana didn’t have much awareness herself and when she went to RCA, when faced with similar options ,her first choice to finally sing was of all things ‘ “why do fools fall in love “ , which apparently was a song she always wanted to sing and so did. Likely that’s one of the earlier songs of her musical memories as a child, something she really was attached to, and when I think of it that way, good for her to record it and make it hers.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    Thank you Kenneth and Reese. So thus far no one is providing a source that lays it out that the intention was to sink Mary Wilson with this album.
    Reese I know you are pretty thorough in your referencing.
    Kenneth I agree that it was part of an agreement to provide an album if that’s what it took to resolve this, and I bet it likely Berry’s heart wasn’t in it , but was his heart into anything at this point? Did he have anything to do with Diana’s output at this point? Or any other artist ?
    I find it hard to believe that Berry would be upset that Mary had a big selling LP. I don’t think he ever expected it, but I doubt he wished it to not happen.

    Motown was rife with disgruntled employees and litigations and people came and went.
    Was anybody permanently banned ??
    when Eddie and David caused disruption didn’t Berry nonetheless want them to be successful? A&S returned as did HDH.
    I suspect the deal was made including a not too shabby Hal Davis as the producer. Maybe Mary requested him knowing what he’d done for Diana.
    But when she showed up at the planning and was asked what she wanted on her album, and all they got from her was a blank stare, it went downhill from there.
    This is indeed conjecture , trying to imagine how this played out.

    So what are the options here? Fact:
    Mary is granted an album of her own , it’ll have her name across the front and nobody else’s. It’ll be the first time in her long career. as a performer. This album represents HER.

    Option one :] Her mind is swirling with possibilities , she goes in with lists of songs she’d like to sing , subject matter for writing a certain song[s], preferred songwriters, producers, or at a very minimum , a style she’d like to pursue, an image to be developed. Everybody’s on board and Mary makes the album of her dreams.

    Option 2] she does exactly all that and Gets total resistance and is told , “Don’t worry about any of that,” and she just says “ok”. [ however that situation would likely have been revealed in her books’ recounting]

    option 3 ] she simply puts her solo career in the hands of Motown as she was used to, and is flabbergasted she’s to sing an entire album of songs written by two nobodies [ However that situation would likely have been covered in her books as well.]

    option 4] Mary goes into the studio, sings whatever they put in front of her never even notices the songs are all written by whoever with nothing else mixed in by any other whoevers : meaning she didn’t really care.

    option 5] the one I’m leaning toward: Mary meets with Hal Davis, has no idea what she wants to sing [ the blank stare] and Hal losing innovation therefore himself , provides her with whatever.

    I suppose one other option could be that Hal Davis thought these new guys had come up with songs that were pure genius and every one of their songs needed to be on this album exclusively , but that probably requires the biggest stretch when imagining this.

    have I missed another way this may have gone down??
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 11-04-2021 at 08:49 PM.

  5. #55
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    I’m leaning towards she met up with Hal and music with backgrounds already cut and all Mary had to do is lay her vocals down

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    I’m leaning towards she met up with Hal and music with backgrounds already cut and all Mary had to do is lay her vocals down
    Very good. That would be option 3 —- correction; option 4

    Mary just showed up and did as directed and didn’t really care about or concern herself with the content .
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 11-04-2021 at 08:46 PM.

  7. #57
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    I’m sure she didn’t really have a choice
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    Very good. That would be option 3 —- correction; option 4

    Mary just showed up and did as directed and didn’t really care about or concern herself with the content .

  8. #58
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    I remember a Mike Douglas interview ,where she performed Red Hot shortly after its release, she stated she didnt want to record a disco album because she saw herself more as a ballad ,jazz singer but they convinced her to do the disco because it was 1979 and disco was in. she regretted it. the 2 best cuts were the ballads

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    I remember a Mike Douglas interview ,where she performed Red Hot shortly after its release, she stated she didnt want to record a disco album because she saw herself more as a ballad ,jazz singer but they convinced her to do the disco because it was 1979 and disco was in. she regretted it. the 2 best cuts were the ballads
    I remember seeing the Mike Douglas appearance. In addition to performing RED HOT and PICK UP THE PIECES, she also did bits of BABY LOVE and WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO where she only sang her backup part.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    I’m sure she didn’t really have a choice
    Your opine is as good as any…
    seems like if she were forced into recording those songs with no choice, she would have complained about it in her writings …. Or did she ??

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    I remember a Mike Douglas interview ,where she performed Red Hot shortly after its release, she stated she didnt want to record a disco album because she saw herself more as a ballad ,jazz singer but they convinced her to do the disco because it was 1979 and disco was in. she regretted it. the 2 best cuts were the ballads
    well that adds some meat to the topic. Who was the “they” that convinced her ?
    Im betting at this point Mary’s goal was to prove herself marketable. She had no idea this project would turn out to be her one and only.
    she likely felt the future would provide her opportunity to streamline her content in her albums once she got the ball rolling.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    well that adds some meat to the topic. Who was the “they” that convinced her ?
    Im betting at this point Mary’s goal was to prove herself marketable. She had no idea this project would turn out to be her one and only.
    she likely felt the future would provide her opportunity to streamline her content in her albums once she got the ball rolling.
    Since at the time she recorded that disco was still very popular, Motown probably wanted to continue to capitalize on that market, witness some of the other releases-even the Boss and diana. I read an article decades ago that Mary gave to Jeffrey Wilson where she stated that her initial album was just a starting point and that she looked at it as a starting point and planned to develop further from there. When she went to Gus Dudgeon and had 4 songs that were terrific development for her, she was released from her contract and given her masters back and was told they were only releasing dance music. So, yes she looked at the debut as just a launching point and was determined to develop and streamline from there. Had Motown not released her and completed a second album with the Dudgeon tracks among others, she may have had a fighting chance to be marketable as a recording artist. Just a thought that really shows Motown did not really want her as a soloist. In 1983, when Suzanne DePasse was thinking a Supremes reunion ala the Tempts with Mary, Scherrie & Cindy-Mary wrote that they wanted Scherrie to do all of the leads. Plus DePasse told Mary she had an "interesting" voice and there was "something they could do with it". Mary said she dropped her guard long enough because that was the first time anyone at Motown had ever complimented her. So, do we think that Motown really wanted to promote her as a solo? I honestly feel it was just to get her to drop the lawsuit, they put minimal investment in her solo work in order to get some return on their investment or that as a business they could write it off as a loss.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    Since at the time she recorded that disco was still very popular, Motown probably wanted to continue to capitalize on that market, witness some of the other releases-even the Boss and diana. I read an article decades ago that Mary gave to Jeffrey Wilson where she stated that her initial album was just a starting point and that she looked at it as a starting point and planned to develop further from there. When she went to Gus Dudgeon and had 4 songs that were terrific development for her, she was released from her contract and given her masters back and was told they were only releasing dance music. So, yes she looked at the debut as just a launching point and was determined to develop and streamline from there. Had Motown not released her and completed a second album with the Dudgeon tracks among others, she may have had a fighting chance to be marketable as a recording artist. Just a thought that really shows Motown did not really want her as a soloist. In 1983, when Suzanne DePasse was thinking a Supremes reunion ala the Tempts with Mary, Scherrie & Cindy-Mary wrote that they wanted Scherrie to do all of the leads. Plus DePasse told Mary she had an "interesting" voice and there was "something they could do with it". Mary said she dropped her guard long enough because that was the first time anyone at Motown had ever complimented her. So, do we think that Motown really wanted to promote her as a solo? I honestly feel it was just to get her to drop the lawsuit, they put minimal investment in her solo work in order to get some return on their investment or that as a business they could write it off as a loss.
    Interesting. So I have to conclude the dudgeon tracks were terrible.
    still not understanding why Motown would want her to fail ? Why ?
    it’s in their favor for her to exceed. If nothing else, for no better reason, it revitalizes interest in the supremes catalogue. And anybody that helps pay the bills ….
    As I’ve already said plenty of people sued Motown , caused problems, returned or continued without vilification.
    the Bottom line was always the bottom line with Motown, not taking the high road, or being principled.
    was Mary Wilson therefore really that hatable that they wanted nothing else but to destroy her? I don’t believe it, not for a second.

    also Weren’t Diana and Mary at least friendly at this point ? So soon after flo’s passing. I wonder if Mary Wilson reached out to Diana Ross for advice at this crossroads in her life?
    “Hi Diane ….. blah blah blah … and so , I’m about to record my first solo LP, any thoughts or helpful input?”

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    Interesting. So I have to conclude the dudgeon tracks were terrible.
    still not understanding why Motown would want her to fail ? Why ?
    it’s in their favor for her to exceed. If nothing else, for no better reason, it revitalizes interest in the supremes catalogue. And anybody that helps pay the bills ….
    As I’ve already said plenty of people sued Motown , caused problems, returned or continued without vilification.
    the Bottom line was always the bottom line with Motown, not taking the high road, or being principled.
    was Mary Wilson therefore really that hatable that they wanted nothing else but to destroy her? I don’t believe it, not for a second.

    also Weren’t Diana and Mary at least friendly at this point ? So soon after flo’s passing. I wonder if Mary Wilson reached out to Diana Ross for advice at this crossroads in her life?
    “Hi Diane ….. blah blah blah … and so , I’m about to record my first solo LP, any thoughts or helpful input?”
    The Gus Dudgeon tracks were actually terrific. Her work on the ballads Love Talk and You Dance My Heart Around The Stars[[which when finally released on a compilation album in 2018 put her vocals in preliminary consideration for a Grammy Nomination)are beautiful and very strong vocally, she does a beautiful job on all of the tracks.. Diana and Mary were still friendly as far as the casual observer could see. Diana herself was trying to liberate herself from Motown's long arm as she moved to NYC area after The Wiz and started her journey to leave the label a few years later. I don't know how much time she may have had since she was going through some growth of her own at the time. Mary said Diana was gracious enough to consent to be Turkessa's Godmother and that she came to Mary's opening night and was very supportive[[The lovely Miss Ross also did so for Cindy Birdsong when she went solo in the UK) she wrote that Diana and her had some moments for some private girl talk after her debut and that she was supportive and complimentary, that she was really there for her and that it was a pleasure to have her there.
    I don't think Mary was "hateable" and that Motown plotted and schemed to destroy her solo efforts, they were just looking at the bottom line. By 1979, the Supremes were a memory to this new era. Motown failed to keep them in the top 40 between 1973-1976 and after 1976. Launching Mary at that time was calculated just to have her drop her lawsuit. Mary was considered an outcast and rebel since she had stood up for herself. Gordy never saw her as anything but a "capable background singer" so if his heart wasn't in it neither was the label. He was behind Diana and making movies. He wasn't really behind the Terrell and Payne led years in the Supremes, they had just enough support to keep going but not what the premiere group on the label should have-the focus was on Diana and the Jackson 5 much like it had been on The Supremes beforehand. Gordy let them coast on their name for success in the 70's and Mary saw the value in the name of the group she helped to co-find and continued to fight for the name for many years. It is not an easy answer but one of speculation. Plus, I can speculate that Motown did not care at all for Pedro Ferrer, her husband and manager. That may have had a minute possibility of any "hateable" factor. Like any business, if you have to deal with someone you don't like people usually don't give it their all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boogiedown View Post
    Interesting. So I have to conclude the dudgeon tracks were terrible.
    still not understanding why Motown would want her to fail ? Why ?
    it’s in their favor for her to exceed. If nothing else, for no better reason, it revitalizes interest in the supremes catalogue. And anybody that helps pay the bills ….
    As I’ve already said plenty of people sued Motown , caused problems, returned or continued without vilification.
    the Bottom line was always the bottom line with Motown, not taking the high road, or being principled.
    was Mary Wilson therefore really that hatable that they wanted nothing else but to destroy her? I don’t believe it, not for a second.

    also Weren’t Diana and Mary at least friendly at this point ? So soon after flo’s passing. I wonder if Mary Wilson reached out to Diana Ross for advice at this crossroads in her life?
    “Hi Diane ….. blah blah blah … and so , I’m about to record my first solo LP, any thoughts or helpful input?”
    I don’t think she was hated, but the fact she was shown the door so soon speaks volumes. I wonder how Diana herself felt about Mary being dropped from the label. I guess she was probably to busy with her own career to give it much thought.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I don’t think she was hated, but the fact she was shown the door so soon speaks volumes. I wonder how Diana herself felt about Mary being dropped from the label. I guess she was probably to busy with her own career to give it much thought.
    Diana Ross tried to help Mary secure a record deal after Motown dropped her and she left the label a few months later. Mary refused her assistance

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    The Gus Dudgeon tracks were actually terrific. Her work on the ballads Love Talk and You Dance My Heart Around The Stars[[which when finally released on a compilation album in 2018 put her vocals in preliminary consideration for a Grammy Nomination)are beautiful and very strong vocally, she does a beautiful job on all of the tracks.. Diana and Mary were still friendly as far as the casual observer could see. Diana herself was trying to liberate herself from Motown's long arm as she moved to NYC area after The Wiz and started her journey to leave the label a few years later. I don't know how much time she may have had since she was going through some growth of her own at the time. Mary said Diana was gracious enough to consent to be Turkessa's Godmother and that she came to Mary's opening night and was very supportive[[The lovely Miss Ross also did so for Cindy Birdsong when she went solo in the UK) she wrote that Diana and her had some moments for some private girl talk after her debut and that she was supportive and complimentary, that she was really there for her and that it was a pleasure to have her there.
    I don't think Mary was "hateable" and that Motown plotted and schemed to destroy her solo efforts, they were just looking at the bottom line. By 1979, the Supremes were a memory to this new era. Motown failed to keep them in the top 40 between 1973-1976 and after 1976. Launching Mary at that time was calculated just to have her drop her lawsuit. Mary was considered an outcast and rebel since she had stood up for herself. Gordy never saw her as anything but a "capable background singer" so if his heart wasn't in it neither was the label. He was behind Diana and making movies. He wasn't really behind the Terrell and Payne led years in the Supremes, they had just enough support to keep going but not what the premiere group on the label should have-the focus was on Diana and the Jackson 5 much like it had been on The Supremes beforehand. Gordy let them coast on their name for success in the 70's and Mary saw the value in the name of the group she helped to co-find and continued to fight for the name for many years. It is not an easy answer but one of speculation. Plus, I can speculate that Motown did not care at all for Pedro Ferrer, her husband and manager. That may have had a minute possibility of any "hateable" factor. Like any business, if you have to deal with someone you don't like people usually don't give it their all.
    I wouldn't even go so far as to say Gordy didn't like Mary. I think she threatened the money and that was an issue for him. It seems to me, from the outside looking in, that the old Motown family from the early days would always hold a special place for Gordy, who believe it or not, could be quite sentimental. Sure, there were probably times when certain "family" got on his bad side and stayed there. Florence comes to mind. I do think there came a point where he disliked her, and she obviously disliked him. I don't know that anything between Mary and Berry ever got that bad, including the lawsuit. But talent wise, he, and by extension Motown, held no interest in what Mary could do and so when the album tanked, Berry had no more use for her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Diana Ross tried to help Mary secure a record deal after Motown dropped her and she left the label a few months later. Mary refused her assistance
    Bayou, how credible is that report? Seems weird that Mary would go to Diana for financial assistance but have too much pride to let her help musically. Unless this was Diana's first attempt at "managing" other artists, at which point I can see Mary laughing and declining all at once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Diana Ross tried to help Mary secure a record deal after Motown dropped her and she left the label a few months later. Mary refused her assistance
    Interesting info Bayou. Is this documented somewhere as I have yet to read it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    Diana Ross tried to help Mary secure a record deal after Motown dropped her and she left the label a few months later. Mary refused her assistance
    Curious, the source for this story would be good.
    What does ‘tried to help’ mean ? How?
    Mary ‘refused’ , why ?

    maybe because the label Diana tried to hook her up with was ABC

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