Florence and Mary on Background Vocals

[jobucats]

As I was playing through some of the albums from 1965 and 1966 to focus on the background voices of Mary and Florence, I made a particular observation. Their harmonies were always so 'tight' and distinctively beautiful. When they would sing backgrounds in unison [[not harmonies), more times that not, Mary's voice stands out much more that Florence's. Of course, a prime example of that is "Where Did Our Love Go" where I question that Florence's voice is even on the recording at all. It sounds like a Diana-Mary duet to me.

Mary's smokey, thick voice did seem to soften the edge of Diana's lead lines; and I am beginning to wonder if Florence's voice was maybe somewhat too abrasive on those recordings thus she was placed further from the mic or mixed in at a much less volume level especially when she are singing a unison line. Florence definitely could belt out her gospelish style [[my opinion) voice which didn't seem to cater to the Supremes sound.

Which brings me to my next "I wonder." Vocally, did Berry see Cindy's much softer soprano as being more conducive to the direction he was wanting to take the Supremes as they expanded more in more into the pop and show buiness arena? And yes, Mary's voice, on those live recordings of DRATS is way more powerful than Cindy's.

[RanRan79]

Interesting thoughts Jobucats. In an interview conducted with Mary with Harry Weinger [[I think) from 2017 [[again, I think) Mary comments about really just hearing herself on "Where Did Our Love Go" in the background, but confirms that Florence was there. Harry also confirms this. I questioned in another thread if it is possible for the Vault Team to release a mix of "Where" where Flo is more audible. Either Andy or George responded that it couldn't be done for some reason or another that escapes me. I think it was something about Flo and Mary using the same mic? I don't know. I'm probably wrong on that. Just ignore me.

Anyway, to address the point of your post, it's possible that Berry saw Cindy's softer voice as an asset in his continuing plans for DRATS. I think he considered it a plus. I love Flo's voice, both as backing vocalist and lead vocalist, but she did often stand out, which I'm sure Gordy wouldn't have seen as an asset to the new phase where Diana is the absolute focal point. For the record, I don't think any of this had anything to do with Gordy's decision to eventually fire Florence.

Also important to note that toward the end of her time as a Supreme, Flo's voice was going through some changes. Whether it was due to a natural change of voice, which, believe it or not, women also go through, damage from alcohol and cigarettes, overuse of voice, misuse of voice, stress, or a combination of all of those things, one can only speculate. I mention it because on a lot of those R&H cuts, Flo is not the belter we had come to know and love. She fit right in the groove with Mary on those sophisticated tunes, so in actuality, going forward her voice may not have been an issue for a lot of those tunes like the Fats Waller Medley and such that the girls would record or perform so much during the DRATS period.

[reese]

Interesting thoughts Jobucats. In an interview conducted with Mary with Harry Weinger [[I think) from 2017 [[again, I think) Mary comments about really just hearing herself on "Where Did Our Love Go" in the background, but confirms that Florence was there. Harry also confirms this. I questioned in another thread if it is possible for the Vault Team to release a mix of "Where" where Flo is more audible. Either Andy or George responded that it couldn't be done for some reason or another that escapes me. I think it was something about Flo and Mary using the same mic? I don't know. I'm probably wrong on that. Just ignore me.

Anyway, to address the point of your post, it's possible that Berry saw Cindy's softer voice as an asset in his continuing plans for DRATS. I think he considered it a plus. I love Flo's voice, both as backing vocalist and lead vocalist, but she did often stand out, which I'm sure Gordy wouldn't have seen as an asset to the new phase where Diana is the absolute focal point. For the record, I don't think any of this had anything to do with Gordy's decision to eventually fire Florence.

Also important to note that toward the end of her time as a Supreme, Flo's voice was going through some changes. Whether it was due to a natural change of voice, which, believe it or not, women also go through, damage from alcohol and cigarettes, overuse of voice, misuse of voice, stress, or a combination of all of those things, one can only speculate. I mention it because on a lot of those R&H cuts, Flo is not the belter we had come to know and love. She fit right in the groove with Mary on those sophisticated tunes, so in actuality, going forward her voice may not have been an issue for a lot of those tunes like the Fats Waller Medley and such that the girls would record or perform so much during the DRATS period.

Re Flo on WDOLG, I think that recording might have been an example of HDH having Flo stand further back from the mike so that she wouldn't overpower Mary since they were probably sharing the same mike and also their vocals would be on the same track.

Re Berry liking Cindy's softer soprano, that is an interesting thought. There was at least one story [myth] spread that when first looking at Cindy, Berry was actually listening to Sarah Dash, whose voice was much more piercing.

[sup_fan]

if it is possible for the Vault Team to release a mix of "Where" where Flo is more audible. Either Andy or George responded that it couldn't be done for some reason or another that escapes me. I think it was something about Flo and Mary using the same mic? I don't know. I'm probably wrong on that.

yeah i don't think this is possible. i'm not up to speed on the exact technical verbiage. i don't know if it's because they're on 1 mic or their mics fed into 1 track. but it isn't possible to split them.

someone mentioned this is the same case for the Jimmy Webb tracks. i guess the Blossoms were in the studio with MJL and they all sang together. it's not like how the Andantes were added to something like Going Down 3rd Time where its separate and you coud remove. or the Funny Girl songs

[rod_rick]

I never bought that line that Berry was looking at Cindy but hearing Sarah because remember Cindy auditioned for Berry so he knew exactly what he was getting vocally. Also by 1967 Florence voice had changed her soprano was not as bright as it was previously

[rod_rick]

If you listen closely you can faintly hear Flo on the "Baby Baby, Oo Baby Baby". You can hear that brightness that Flo projected with her voice ever so slightly. It was said Mary was right on the mic and Flo was some distance away.

[SatansBlues]

They both played well against Diana's vocals and I think the back and forth was intentional. Listening to their earlier work there are certain songs where it's Diana and Mary, that you hear prominently while on some other tracks it's Diana and Florence, where Florence is the prominent background voice. And they both sounded great with Diana. I noticed this also with Martha & The Vandellas to a lesser extent, where you hear Roz Ashford prominently in the back playing against Martha's vocals.

On other songs Florence and Mary's voices blend perfectly and they sound like one person. Two of my favorite examples of this are on the tracks Love Is In Our Hearts where it's with Mary and Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered with Florence singing like a shadow co-lead. Or you get Florence and Diana on Let Me Go The Right Way and Mary and Diana on Where Did Our Love Go. I don't think this was by accident, but producers wanted to capture a certain sound with the group.

I do wonder if this also became a problem within the group. Once the group took off and became more successful Mary and Florence were blended more into the background. Or even having the Andantes on certain songs and albums [[Christmas album) that also became a source of friction within the group in '66 and '67.

[blackguy69]

Love is in our hearts is Mary and Marlene

They both played well against Diana's vocals and I think the back and forth was intentional. Listening to their earlier work there are certain songs where it's Diana and Mary, that you hear prominently while on some other tracks it's Diana and Florence, where Florence is the prominent background voice. And they both sounded great with Diana. I noticed this also with Martha & The Vandellas to a lesser extent, where you hear Roz Ashford prominently in the back playing against Martha's vocals.

On other songs Florence and Mary's voices blend perfectly and they sound like one person. Two of my favorite examples of this are on the tracks Love Is In Our Hearts where it's with Mary and Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered with Florence singing like a shadow co-lead. Or you get Florence and Diana on Let Me Go The Right Way and Mary and Diana on Where Did Our Love Go. I don't think this was by accident, but producers wanted to capture a certain sound with the group.

I do wonder if this also became a problem within the group. Once the group took off and became more successful Mary and Florence were blended more into the background. Or even having the Andantes on certain songs and albums [[Christmas album) that also became a source of friction within the group in '66 and '67.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Where Did Our Love Go certainly has Mary prominent on the backgrounds. As said one of the Holland Brothers suggested Mary as lead since it was a soft, rocking ballad right up her alley. To get that sound it makes sense that she is the predominant background voice and it is the perfect counterpoint to Diana. Mary always offered warmth and grounded the vocals of both Diana and Florence. Whenever they wanted the sound to be less grounded and similar Florence was more prominent.. On Rogers & Hart, they really had such great harmony and it was great to hear Mary compliment Diana with her lead lines on Falling in Love with Love. It became more focused on the lead vocals and rather than focus on what sound the group had together, Motown seemed to want to have the focus away from the group and more on the lead, this was especially true when it became DRATS and Cindy replaced Florence and the Andantes replaced them in the studio. Diana was a unique vocalist, but the entire group had a unique sound and harmony. The decision to take away what made the group sound special would obviously cause tension, even if it wasn't verbalized.

[RanRan79]

If you listen closely you can faintly hear Flo on the "Baby Baby, Oo Baby Baby". You can hear that brightness that Flo projected with her voice ever so slightly. It was said Mary was right on the mic and Flo was some distance away.

Agreed! I can detect her ever so slightly.

[RanRan79]

Love is in our hearts is Mary and Marlene

I believe you're wrong about that one BG. Definitely Mary and Florence.

[blackguy69]

I’m not wrong we discussed this song before it was one of the block of songs that Mary and Marlene did

I believe you're wrong about that one BG. Definitely Mary and Florence.

[SatansBlues]

I’m not wrong we discussed this song before it was one of the block of songs that Mary and Marlene did

Were these a group of songs recorded by the group in the summer months of '66? I think a couple others were Just A little Misunderstanding and Misery Makes My Heart It's Home and YCHL?

[blackguy69]

Yep yep those are the one

Were these a group of songs recorded by the group in the summer months of '66? I think a couple others were Just A little Misunderstanding and Misery Makes My Heart It's Home and YCHL?

[RanRan79]

The songs where Flo is missing and Marlene subs for her were recorded July 4-5. "Love Is In Our Hearts" was completed on June 17, when Diana's lead was recorded. Backing vocals recorded in April. It is not a part of the clutch of songs that Marlene subs for Flo, unless the Vault Team explains that Marlene subbing for Flo started "long" before the July 4/5 recording sessions. They make it a point to mention Flo missing the sessions during that 4th and 5th day of July. Nothing about April.

[floyjoy678]

I'm still not entirely convinced Flo isn't on You Cant Hurry Love.

I loved Flo and Mary in the background. Always. Never preferred the Andantes or Cindy or Marlene to them. One of my favorite Mary and Flo moments is on Come See About Me. They really add something special to that song and add to the urgency of the song that just builds up more and more throughout the song and ends beautifully with Flo and Mary harmonizing the chorus as opposed to in unison during the first two choruses. Flo legitimately sounds like she's crying her "Come See About Meeee"s at the end there and really adds a desperate tone to the end of the song.

[sup_fan]

I'm still not entirely convinced Flo isn't on You Cant Hurry Love.

I loved Flo and Mary in the background. Always. Never preferred the Andantes or Cindy or Marlene to them. One of my favorite Mary and Flo moments is on Come See About Me. They really add something special to that song and add to the urgency of the song that just builds up more and more throughout the song and ends beautifully with Flo and Mary harmonizing the chorus as opposed to in unison during the first two choruses. Flo legitimately sounds like she's crying her "Come See About Meeee"s at the end there and really adds a desperate tone to the end of the song.

i thought i was sure about it too but according to the A Go Go booklet, Flo was a no-show on the date where the sessions logs show vocals recorded for YCHL. it could be possible that they tossed this BG vocal and re-recorded late with M and F but not likely

[RanRan79]

I'm still not entirely convinced Flo isn't on You Cant Hurry Love.

I loved Flo and Mary in the background. Always. Never preferred the Andantes or Cindy or Marlene to them. One of my favorite Mary and Flo moments is on Come See About Me. They really add something special to that song and add to the urgency of the song that just builds up more and more throughout the song and ends beautifully with Flo and Mary harmonizing the chorus as opposed to in unison during the first two choruses. Flo legitimately sounds like she's crying her "Come See About Meeee"s at the end there and really adds a desperate tone to the end of the song.

In the A Go Go booklet, the fellas make a point of mentioning the block of songs Flo is absent from the sessions for July 4-5. "You Can't Hurry Love" falls within the dates. If you pay real close attention to the backing vocals, it makes sense that the voice being heard is Marlene and not Florence. While the two had some similarities, I think Marlene's voice was much more bell like and clear, versus Flo's more full and robust voice. You can really hear Marlene on "Come On and See Me". To my ears it does sound like the same voice on "Hurry" as "Come On and See Me". Of course it would be nice to be wrong about this. Loving Flo as I do, I hate the thought of her being absent on one of the group's biggest and most iconic songs.

I do find it strange that the Vault Gang didn't just come out and say Flo isn't on the song, since they make it a point to list by name some of the ones from this block of sessions that she missed. Maybe they aren't sure if she's there or not. Certainly leaves the door open to speculation one way or the other, which in the end might be better than ending the mystery altogether. It gives us something to ponder every now and then.

[thanxal]

I do find it strange that the Vault Gang didn't just come out and say Flo isn't on the song,

They didn't because they're smart and know the fans.

[RanRan79]

They didn't because they're smart and know the fans.

But why even go there in the first place? Why not just skip the part about Flo missing the session if there's no wish to rile up the wacky part of the fandom? That's why I think it's possible that when it comes to "Hurry" maybe the guys just aren't sure themselves.

[George Solomon]

They didn't because they're smart and know the fans.

Some things are better left unsaid. Some things have been specifically requested to remain private. And Some things you never get used to.

[Ollie9]

Some things are better left unsaid. Some things have been specifically requested to remain private. And Some things you never get used to.

Lol. I guess that’s a ​No then.

[floyjoy678]

I mean listen I get the evidence is there but I'm just always puzzled why Mary, Diana or HDH never said anything about it. They didn't have any problems saying which songs Mary and Cindy weren't on. I also have thought wouldn't something like this push Flo over the edge?

[reese]

I mean listen I get the evidence is there but I'm just always puzzled why Mary, Diana or HDH never said anything about it. They didn't have any problems saying which songs Mary and Cindy weren't on. I also have thought wouldn't something like this push Flo over the edge?

Diana has mentioned Flo not showing up to recording sessions. She just hasn't specified which songs were affected by it. She probably doesn't even remember.

[jobeterob]

Ten or more years ago, one of the Vault Crew said fans should not ask questions if they aren’t going to like the answers they get.

[CoolKatz]

But why even go there in the first place? Why not just skip the part about Flo missing the session if there's no wish to rile up the wacky part of the fandom? That's why I think it's possible that when it comes to "Hurry" maybe the guys just aren't sure themselves.

I agree. Motown was known for it's horrible record keeping. A person could spend the rest of their lives trying to piece it together and still never be able to come to a conclusion. There are still recordings and shows that are lost or never mentioned. The team is still releasing on off recordings that they didn't know existed? The Motown school of marketing still at play

[CoolKatz]

They didn't because they're smart and know the fans.

They also know what can hurt sales. People purchased the Supremes records because they were under they impression that it was the Supremes, not Marlene or the Andantes or whoever. Even today it can affect sales for the hardcore fans.

I will admit that some of these late stage revelations however true or not has turned me off for two reasons. Either there is some truth to them [[which I can except, it happens in the music industry) or the machine is still spouting off slanted rhetoric. The latter one really turns me off. Also one must remember that key players are still alive and a certain narrative and facade must me maintained and protected. Also keep in mind that this is all opinion and often a fans biased opinion at that. No matter how great your ears are of what fancy equipment you might use to try to decipher things we where not there! In fact at this point even some who where there can't even tell you, because memories fade.

Oddly enough the male groups [[who often had missing members and stand ins) are never treated with such scrutiny.

[jobeterob]

They also know what kills sales. People purchased the Supremes records because they were under they impression that it was the Supremes, not Marlene or the Andantes or whoever. Even today it can affect sales. I will admit that some of these late stage revelations however true or not has turned me off for two reasons. Either there is some truth to them [[which I can except, it happens in the music industry) or the machine is still spouting off slanted rhetoric. One must remember that key players are still alive and that fantasy must be protected. Which is a bigger turn off for me. Also one must keep in mind that this is all opinion. No matter how great your ears are of what fancy equipment you might use to try and figure things out you where not there! In fact at this point even some who where there can't even tell you, because memories fade. Oddly enough the male groups [[who often had missing members and stand ins) are never treated with such scrutiny

It's true about the male groups. But they never had such an identifiable personality as Diana Ross in any of those groups and none of them went to the movies and were nominated for an Academy Award or did Central Park as a solo act. Even amongst background singers, Mary Wilson was much more identifiable than most; in fact she was as identifiable or more so than Otis Williams or Levi Stubbs.

[CoolKatz]

It's true about the male groups. But they never had such an identifiable personality as Diana Ross in any of those groups and none of them went to the movies and were nominated for an Academy Award or did Central Park as a solo act. Even amongst background singers, Mary Wilson was much more identifiable than most; in fact she was as identifiable or more so than Otis Williams or Levi Stubbs.

.

You do have a point. Flo, Mary and later Cindy's faces were so identifiable that it seems more personal to fans than with guy groups.

[floyjoy678]

I do buy Marlene being on Reflections because Flo was on her way out by then.

And yes Flo and Mary were identifiable. Oprah said she had a hard time accepting Cindy when she replaced Flo.

[jobeterob]

About 10 years ago, one of the Vault Crew said fans should not ask questions if they weren’t going to like the answers they got.

I always took that to mean there are Andantes, Marlene and others in places that would surprise us.

[Spreadinglove21]

Vocally, I believe Levi Stubbs is more distinct and known than Mary Wilson. Or Florence Ballard.

[Spreadinglove21]

About 10 years ago, one of the Vault Crew said fans should not ask questions if they weren’t going to like the answers they got.

I always took that to mean there are Andantes, Marlene and others in places that would surprise us.

When it was revealed that Mary and Flo weren't on a version of Stop in the Name of Love here, some major fan wars broke out. Some were gleeful and some were angered and enraged.

[jobeterob]

Vocally, I believe Levi Stubbs is more distinct and known than Mary Wilson. Or Florence Ballard.

It is hard to argue that Levi is less distinct - he definitely is more distinct. Sadly, I’m not sure he’s better known but perhaps.

It seems quite obvious that the single version of Stop had backgrounds that were clearly not much of Mary and Florence

[RanRan79]

Some things are better left unsaid. Some things have been specifically requested to remain private. And Some things you never get used to.

The boldened remark is most interesting and I'm guessing is the reason for dancing around the issue in the booklet.

[RanRan79]

About 10 years ago, one of the Vault Crew said fans should not ask questions if they weren’t going to like the answers they got.

I always took that to mean there are Andantes, Marlene and others in places that would surprise us.

If you pay attention to the music, though, it's easy to figure out that the Supremes were sometimes augmented or replaced. I would assume the fellas were politely saying "If you ask us who's on what, shut the fuck up with your crying and whining and combative attitude when we answer the question not to your liking." At least that's how I would take it.

[RanRan79]

Vocally, I believe Levi Stubbs is more distinct and known than Mary Wilson. Or Florence Ballard.

Perhaps, and namely because he was the lead singer of some of the most iconic songs of all time. Regardless of anyone's thoughts and feelings on backing vocalists, they will never compare to the instant identification of a lead voice, no matter how prevalent they are as singers. But Rob has a point about name recognition. I think more of the general public might know the names Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard more than they do Levi Stubbs. Had the group become Levi Stubbs and the Tops, as it's rumored Gordy wanted to do, this would certainly have made the difference.

[RanRan79]

When it was revealed that Mary and Flo weren't on a version of Stop in the Name of Love here, some major fan wars broke out. Some were gleeful and some were angered and enraged.

Yeah, that was a couple years ago. It says your join date was in April of this year. In another thread you mentioned something about Marv, who was dead six or so months before you joined. Were you here before?

Flo and Mary are on every version of "Stop". Andy made a comment that I believe was misinterpreted. Thankfully George cleared it up. Flo and Mary were augmented by one or more Andantes. I do recall that there were members who seemed to react to the news with some weird form of glee. It was the strangest thing.

[thanxal]

The boldened remark is most interesting and I'm guessing is the reason for dancing around the issue in the booklet.

I’ll reiterate… the “vault guys” know more than us AND are wiser.

I would file it under “things I’ll never really get the answer to, and that’s ok”.

[floyjoy678]

The consensus was always that there are some extra voices with Mary and Flo on "Stop!". I suspected this years and years ago and back in the yahoo group days I asked Louvain Demps about this and she said that they beefed up the song and that Jackie helped out on "Lovelight" and "Run". She never said they replaced them. I think like Ranran said, people misinterpreted it as Mary and Flo being completely replaced on the songs. And the die hard Ross fans ran with it.

[jobeterob]

It would be interesting to me to know what voice is the one I hear on the initial STOP on the 45 - for me it isn’t Diana Mary or Flo but someone else overpowering them in some fashion

On the other hand, that’s kind of useless information that only a semi loyal rational fan of Motown would care about.

I always assumed I hear Jackie Louvain or Marlene on that first word.

[floyjoy678]

It would be interesting to me to know what voice is the one I hear on the initial STOP on the 45 - for me it isn’t Diana Mary or Flo but someone else overpowering them in some fashion

On the other hand, that’s kind of useless information that only a semi loyal rational fan of Motown would care about.

I always assumed I hear Jackie Louvain or Marlene on that first word.

Rob that's Jackie's voice you're hearing. Flo comes through during the "baby baby"s during the verses.

[jobeterob]

Rob that's Jackie's voice you're hearing. Flo comes through during the "baby baby"s during the verses.

Oh thank you; I've always loved it and I never knew. And probably for a while, you weren't supposed to ask.

[Spreadinglove21]

Yeah, that was a couple years ago. It says your join date was in April of this year. In another thread you mentioned something about Marv, who was dead six or so months before you joined. Were you here before?

Flo and Mary are on every version of "Stop". Andy made a comment that I believe was misinterpreted. Thankfully George cleared it up. Flo and Mary were augmented by one or more Andantes. I do recall that there were members who seemed to react to the news with some weird form of glee. It was the strangest thing.

Yeah, I've been here in the past under other names. And I've lurked. I can't quit this place. I'm trying to behave better now. I've been a part of these Supremes groups starting back in Yahoo in the RTL days.