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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatmaninthethirdrow View Post
    In UK, the BBC has decided in its arrogant wisdom the plural of certain latin words adopted directly into English that end in "um" shall no longer end in "a" but in "s"

    Thus

    Stadiums instead of Stadia

    And to think that we Brits are threatened with a criminal record if we fail to pay the BBC Licence Fee which is essentially a non avoidable impost.

    They are even threatening 90 year olds with prison for not paying!
    The BBC also seems to make a point of using voice-over people who can't pronounce "th" correctly, or who have the faux-Jamaican accent that seems to have permeated through some of the youth of the country.

    I guess that it's about inclusivity, but when that involves things that are to the detriment of spoken English I feel that it's gone too far.

  2. #52
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    Watching our Education Secretary on TV, Mr Williamson, I recon his THE is pronounced with a V instead of TH - Ve

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sotosound View Post
    The BBC also seems to make a point of using voice-over people who can't pronounce "th" correctly...
    Quote Originally Posted by mysterysinger View Post
    Watching our Education Secretary on TV, Mr Williamson, I recon his THE is pronounced with a V instead of TH - Ve
    I've noticed some people doing that over the years but I didn't think much about it - maybe I just thought these people found "th" difficult to pronounce, if I thought about it at all. But now I see it's really "a fing", called "th-fronting", and it's apparently been around for a while:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th-fronting

    I should have realized it, as I don't remember hearing that when I grew up in the US.
    Last edited by calvin; 08-22-2021 at 06:12 AM.

  4. #54
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    Isn't that sound made normally by a particular speech impediment? A similar situation to the legend that a Spanish king [[forget which) had a lisp, and eventually, enough Castillian citizens copied that sound, out of fear of being thought to be mocking his impediment, by speaking correctly and naturally. Of course that theory of the development of "The Castilian Lisp, is utter rubbish. But maybe the situation is analogous. Why would national media announcers voluntarily take up a mannerism of a speech impediment?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by calvin View Post
    I was walking with my friend and she was showing me around the city when I saw, on a church, some graffiti that I understood and read out loud: “Geef de paus een strippenkaart.” [Probably no longer around, that was a strip of bus/tram tickets.] My friend hadn’t seen the graffiti and gave me a “wtf?” look - I then pointed to the graffiti, she couldn’t stop laughing for several minutes.

    Funny the things we remember, but those were good times...
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    Notice that paus [[Pope) is NOT capitalised! That is deliberate.
    Last edited by robb_k; 08-21-2021 at 02:12 PM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatmaninthethirdrow View Post
    In UK, the BBC has decided in its arrogant wisdom the plural of certain latin words adopted directly into English that end in "um" shall no longer end in "a" but in "s"

    Thus

    Stadiums instead of Stadia
    I must use my Encyclopediums Brittanicum as a reference.

  7. #57
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    My 13 year-old granddaughter and eight year-old grandson use th-fronting because it's widely present in their peer groups, plus their father and their paternal grandmother use it.

    I'm guessing that my grandson will change this as he gets older since he's quite detailed and analytical by nature, and since he will probably not be so concerned with conforming as with communicating correctly when he gets older.

    I'm also guessing that my granddaughter will retain this speech pattern, as she places less value on correctly spoken English.

  8. #58
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    I hear so many different accents and pronunciations [from both native and non-native English speakers] that, as long as I understand what's being said, I don't really think about it - except maybe to guess where the person comes from.

    Th-fronting seems, at least to me, on the subtle side - I might have to listen closely to be sure of it. A pronunciation that I can't help but notice is when someone drops the "t" sound in a word like "butter", saying something like "buh-er". [I see it's called t-glottalization.]

    I used to pronounce "butter" like "budder", as many Americans do. It's a bit easier to say with a voiced "d" instead of a voiceless "t" between the two [voiced] vowels, that's probably why some started saying it that way. I pronounced it "budder" because those around me did when I was a child, not because it was easier.

    Saying "th" as "f" or "v" is also easier as one doesn't need to move the tongue.

    From what I've just read, th-fronting is spreading, not only geographically but it's also been making it's way into the middle class from its origins in the working class. And now if the BBC is ok with it...
    Last edited by calvin; 08-22-2021 at 03:16 PM.

  9. #59
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    Back in the mid-80s, I met the BBC’s - apparently legendary - Angela Bond and one of her acolytes for a job interview, which was part of a vain attempt by me to find a proper job associated with music after becoming disillusioned with record wholesaling, wherein I might as well have been selling shoes.

    Although during the interview it quickly became clear to me that the BBC and I would never work out, one thing that I did glean from Ms Bond was that the BBC’s mission was to “educate and entertain”.

    At the time, I felt that this was an arrogant and presumptuous mission, inasmuch as the “educate” part of the mission placed the BBC above the rest of us mere mortals in terms of its self-perception, and without any real basis for doing so.

    When I recall that mission statement and contrast it with the BBC today, wherein badly spoken English appears to be actively encouraged, perhaps in an attempt by those “above” to demonstrate inclusivity, it does make me wonder exactly what mission the BBC is on in 2021.

    I get that not everyone in broadcasting should be expected to have a “BBC” accent, but if someone says “I’m free” and I then have to determine whether they’re very young or have just escaped from prison, it makes me feel a little sad.

    Language can be such a beautiful thing, and we really need to look after it.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysterysinger View Post
    As a UK member, it is, and always will be Elgins with a hard G as in the Scottish town and the Elgin Marbles.
    Sorry, but in the 60s Tony Blackburn always pronounced The Elgins with a soft G and insisted he was pronouncing it correctly.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatmaninthethirdrow View Post
    In UK, the BBC has decided in its arrogant wisdom the plural of certain latin words adopted directly into English that end in "um" shall no longer end in "a" but in "s"

    Thus

    Stadiums instead of Stadia

    And to think that we Brits are threatened with a criminal record if we fail to pay the BBC Licence Fee which is essentially a non avoidable impost.

    They are even threatening 90 year olds with prison for not paying!
    I shall trust in my Concise Oxford Dictionary and continue to use "stadia" or "stadium" as the correct plural forms.
    If the BBC wants to find itself a mission, it would do better in trying to stop adverbs becoming an endangered species.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by 144man View Post
    Sorry, but in the 60s Tony Blackburn always pronounced The Elgins with a soft G and insisted he was pronouncing it correctly.
    And he got it right.

  13. #63
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    Now that it’s settled - it’s “The Elgins” with a soft g and it’s “stadia”, not “stadiums” - maybe it's time to discuss some Motown alba in these SoulfulDetroit fora?
    Last edited by calvin; 08-25-2021 at 01:10 PM.

  14. #64
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    That should put ba on seats.

  15. #65
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    I always get kind of annoyed when people call Four Tops, The Four Tops...I always thought on all their 45's on Motown they were Four Tops - at least that's what we called them in NJ.

    Jackson5 same thing?

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by tjl View Post
    I always get kind of annoyed when people call Four Tops, The Four Tops...I always thought on all their 45's on Motown they were Four Tops - at least that's what we called them in NJ.

    Jackson5 same thing?
    It can be very awkward though when referencing [[the) Four Tops in conversation or print if you don't put a "the" in front. You can't go around saying "Oh I'm a big fan of Four Tops!" "Do you like Reach Out by Four Tops?" It ends up sounding like you have a stilted sense of syntax. Or worse, it could sound as if you're saying you're a fan of 4, toy, spinning tops.

  17. #67
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    I always heard people say "the Four Tops", and of course when someone is speaking you can't tell if "the" is capitalized or not. I thought it was "The Four Tops" until about 15 years ago.

    In many contexts, hearing "Four Tops" without an article sounds a bit jarring, so I still say "the Four Tops."

    On the classic Motown website, the first sentence for the group is: "Levi Stubbs’ awesome lead vocals bestow upon the Four Tops a powerful identity as well as commercial authority..."

    The first Motown album I bought as a child was "The Motown Story" and on the box their songs are credited to "The Four Tops". I'm pretty sure the narrator says it as well. That's probably why I thought it was part of the name for so long.

    https://www.discogs.com/Various-The-...U6MjUyNjEwMzk=
    Last edited by calvin; 09-02-2021 at 02:21 PM.

  18. #68
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    The word "the" is so unimportant that I don't think it matters one way or another whether it's included in a group's official name. It's always not taken into account in indexes otherwise 99% of the groups would end up being categorised under the letter T.

  19. #69
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    YOU GUYS ARE TOO SMART FOR ME,I'M MORE CONFUSED THAN EVER..[and I'm always confused]YOU SAY[POTATO AND I SAY POTAATA]!!!

  20. #70
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    I never thought of them as spinning toys, more as 4 guys "Tops" at what they do, but I always credit the Andantes too.

    My syntax would be - we've got 4 Tops favorites, "I've Got A Felling" and "I'll Turn To Stone" here for you right now....
    Last edited by tjl; 09-04-2021 at 09:13 AM.

  21. #71
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    I agree with 144man, this is not important. It just means you don't capitalize "the" when writing and there are some cases where you could drop "the" altogether. I would always say "by the Four Tops" and not "by Four Tops" because I'm referring to the specific group, not a non-specific collection of four "tops".

    It's the same with sports teams - officially it's "Detroit Lions" but one normally says "the Detroit Lions" or just "the Lions" because it refers to the specific team.

    Taking a look at a couple entries in one of the Complete Motown Singles books, I find "the Four Tops" and also just "the Tops" used in the book. It's ok to write so it's also ok to say.

    Motown wasn't always consistent about the group's name. I noted "The Motown Story" [1970] above but there are also the albums the Tops did together with The Supremes - all three say "The Supremes & The Four Tops" on the cover. They could have left out "The" and it would have sounded fine but they included it. I guess if the Four Tops cared it would have been changed.
    Last edited by calvin; 09-05-2021 at 03:26 PM.

  22. #72
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    [QUOTE=tjl;654793]I never thought of them as spinning toys, more as 4 guys "Tops" at what they do, but I always credit the Andantes too.

    As a broadcaster, my syntax would be - we've got Four Tops favorites, "I've Got A Felling" and "I'll Turn To Stone" here for you right now....

    Also as someone who frequently licenses from our friends at UNI, "Four Tops" is provided in the label copy supplied by UNI/Motown on all single records - you have to use the groups names as originally released. [[e.g.; from the lp Four Tops On Top, or Four Tops second album) Same thing with The Miracles and most of their singles through 67 - then later Smokey Robinson & The Miracles, then back to the Miracles. I can't recall a NJ or Philly jock calling them "The Four Tops" - it was usually something like here's Four Tops or with Jocko-o Henderson type wrap/flair, E to the Ops, here's Four Tops, sing your song...or something he'd refer to them as "The Finger Poppin' Daddies when playing "Baby I Need Your Loving".

    Martha was specific to point out to to me a few times that it was always "Martha Reeves and The Vandellas" not Martha & The Vandellas.
    Last edited by tjl; 09-04-2021 at 09:12 AM.

  23. #73
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    Perhaps martha should look at some of her old lp's,where it clearly states-martha and the vandellas..the only group whose leader's last name was used before[1966]was-jr.walker.

  24. #74
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    We were talking about 45's and flip side's when she made her observation, not albums.

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