[REMOVE ADS]




Results 1 to 39 of 39
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,491
    Rep Power
    188

    No Second Single from NEW WAYS

    I always found it interesting that after the success of "Stoned Love", a second single wasn't plucked off NEW WAYS to try and ride the tide. While there are a lot of covers, which I couldn't see Motown releasing as a next single, there were a few gems, including "Thank Him For Today" and my personal favorite, "I Wish I Were Your Mirror".

    I find the time line of "Stoned Love" and their next single "Nathan Jones" pretty interesting.

    SL was recorded in March, April, and May of 1970.
    SL was released in October, 1970, as well as NEW WAYS
    NJ was recorded in December, 1970.

    To my eyes, it looks as though there was never any intention to release a second single, seeing as Jean, Mary, and Cindy were already in the studio recording, while seemingly SL was still on the charts?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,423
    Rep Power
    148
    Perhaps this was due to the release of their Magnificent Seven LP with The Four Tops in September 1970 [along with it's hit single, "River Deep Mountain High"].

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,740
    Rep Power
    191
    Nathan Jones was recorded in Dec 70. my guess is that once SL fell off the charts [[it ran for a REALLY long time), everyone was so excited by this new and revolutionary record called Nathan Jones that they didn't want to sit on it. also the album bombed so trying to generate public interest in another song on it might not have been successful.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,491
    Rep Power
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Nathan Jones was recorded in Dec 70. my guess is that once SL fell off the charts [[it ran for a REALLY long time), everyone was so excited by this new and revolutionary record called Nathan Jones that they didn't want to sit on it. also the album bombed so trying to generate public interest in another song on it might not have been successful.
    It's funny how you can have an LP that has a smash on it, like New Ways, yet it only charted at #68 US.

    Then you have Floy Joy, with less successful singles at #54, or Rogers and Hart, with no singles, at #20.

    I wonder if a second single from NW might have brought it Top 40?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    2,392
    Rep Power
    157
    i thought Together we can make such sweet music was a possibility , but then the Spinners got the single release, but then, i would have went with Time To Break Down.
    to many covers but yet still a good album.
    my playlist version delettes most covers and adds All I Need and Love Train

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    7,375
    Rep Power
    210
    I think I WISH I WERE YOUR MIRROR would have made a great single.

    But in the end, there were probably too many releases out at the same time. Right after STONED LOVE, here comes RIVER DEEP. Now maybe they could slipped in another NWBLS single early in 1971, as I don't think NATHAN JONES was released until April. But by then, I suppose NWBLS was already falling down the chart.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    378
    Rep Power
    137
    Stoned Love was the biggest hit for the 70's Supremes, it was strange NWBLS did not chart so well. It could have been the cover or the multiple song covers. Strange, there were a number of very good songs to follow up. The same seemed to happen with High Energy, which charted better than NWBLS with no second single to follow the last top 40 hit. Not sure if it was Motown or management or the group that thought to follow the momentum with a new single and LP to these successes.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    388
    Rep Power
    127
    I think Stoned Love, my all time favourite Supremes song, was the only song worth a single release from the album. The other songs are great and I don't skip any song when listening to this album. "It's time to break down" is a groovy song but it doesn't make me get up and move my hips lol. As a single it could definitely do with a shorter version as it just goes on and on. It needed an added part to the songs with a bit more of a oomph nearer the end. I always looked at this song as a great 2nd single release from the album but after hearing it too often changed my mind,
    "Together we can make" would have probably overflowed the market as it was released by the Spinners, on their own New Ways album, as a B-side to their duet release etc. Shine on me was already on the B-side of Stoned Love. Thank him for today was a great way to finish the album and it's a cheerful song but not single material. Too many covers on the album, that's why I prefer Right on and Touch "both having a cover song included as well but not overflowing the album".
    As much as I like the Supremes I do think the album lacked a strong second single. I probably would have only bought the single and left the album in the store if I were around in the 70's.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,499
    Rep Power
    133
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I always found it interesting that after the success of "Stoned Love", a second single wasn't plucked off NEW WAYS to try and ride the tide. While there are a lot of covers, which I couldn't see Motown releasing as a next single, there were a few gems, including "Thank Him For Today" and my personal favorite, "I Wish I Were Your Mirror".

    I find the time line of "Stoned Love" and their next single "Nathan Jones" pretty interesting.

    SL was recorded in March, April, and May of 1970.
    SL was released in October, 1970, as well as NEW WAYS
    NJ was recorded in December, 1970.

    To my eyes, it looks as though there was never any intention to release a second single, seeing as Jean, Mary, and Cindy were already in the studio recording, while seemingly SL was still on the charts?
    have there been any interest from radio in any track from new ways Motown might’ve considered it but the only two songs I can think of that or even remote possibilities are I wish I were your mirror which has a great intro but it’s not that great after that. The other, it’s time to break down, needed additional work and a complete reedit, it just peters out and would go nowhere. Somewhere in that track I think there’s a possibility of a hit record but it’s not on that album as it is.

    folks often bring up together we can make such sweet music, but as I’ve said before I really think it’s a cornball song lyric wise that was several years past it’s relevancy.

    I am also surprised at the album didn’t do well considering it’s hit record single, but that’s an indication of the dwindling support for the new group from the record buying public. I don’t buy into lack of promotion or they should’ve change the title or it should’ve had a different cover maybe all of those things would’ve improved it, but if you’ve got a record like stoned live and many people know that there’s a long version of it on this album, and they are still not running out and Buying it, regardless of what it looked like or what it was called, there is a reason _ and that reason is disinterest. Remember, right on I’ve done quite well and if people were into the music on it, the follow up album with with a much bigger single would have fared better than right on. One can only conclude that the new Supremes were not capturing the market. The dismal showing of magnificent seven gives you an indication of the lack of interest in the group.

    Two years before, Diana Ross and the Supremes and the Temptations had two albums in the top 10 at the same time, Supremes album in the top 20 Plus greatest hits and a live album still on the chart.

    One year earlier, Supremes had cream of the crop greatest hits volume three and GIT on Broadway selling at the same time Although nowhere near as well as the year before - but the music wasn’t as good either. However, there was still support.

    When the touch the album, with a great cover and a great single hit on it tanked, Motown wisely freaked out, dumped FrankWilson and tried some thing else. They released a second single off that album, the insipid “touch” - every once in a while I play that song and laugh out loud, that’s how bad I think it is. Now there’s nothing on new Waze that’s anywhere near as awful as attach, but still, it shows the disturbing trend and proves that radio would not support a weakling follow up single, like it did with Diana Ross and the Supremes several times.

    I do think they should have held back new ways but love stays until they had another single to put on it…… How long could it possibly have taken? FrankWilsonran couldn’t come up with anything in a timely manner, there were lots of producers at Motown that would have loved to work with Jean Marie and Cindy and that great record could have been inserted on the album as an anomaly - like these things will keep me loving you and Ross’s first album. I know they were attempting to have some sort of a concept album, and there is some merit to the work that they did, there’s just not another hit single there and I think it was shortsighted of Motown to put it out that way.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,740
    Rep Power
    191
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    have there been any interest from radio in any track from new ways Motown might’ve considered it but the only two songs I can think of that or even remote possibilities are I wish I were your mirror which has a great intro but it’s not that great after that. The other, it’s time to break down, needed additional work and a complete reedit, it just peters out and would go nowhere. Somewhere in that track I think there’s a possibility of a hit record but it’s not on that album as it is.

    folks often bring up together we can make such sweet music, but as I’ve said before I really think it’s a cornball song lyric wise that was several years past it’s relevancy.

    I am also surprised at the album didn’t do well considering it’s hit record single, but that’s an indication of the dwindling support for the new group from the record buying public. I don’t buy into lack of promotion or they should’ve change the title or it should’ve had a different cover maybe all of those things would’ve improved it, but if you’ve got a record like stoned live and many people know that there’s a long version of it on this album, and they are still not running out and Buying it, regardless of what it looked like or what it was called, there is a reason _ and that reason is disinterest. Remember, right on I’ve done quite well and if people were into the music on it, the follow up album with with a much bigger single would have fared better than right on. One can only conclude that the new Supremes were not capturing the market. The dismal showing of magnificent seven gives you an indication of the lack of interest in the group.

    Two years before, Diana Ross and the Supremes and the Temptations had two albums in the top 10 at the same time, Supremes album in the top 20 Plus greatest hits and a live album still on the chart.

    One year earlier, Supremes had cream of the crop greatest hits volume three and GIT on Broadway selling at the same time Although nowhere near as well as the year before - but the music wasn’t as good either. However, there was still support.

    When the touch the album, with a great cover and a great single hit on it tanked, Motown wisely freaked out, dumped FrankWilson and tried some thing else. They released a second single off that album, the insipid “touch” - every once in a while I play that song and laugh out loud, that’s how bad I think it is. Now there’s nothing on new Waze that’s anywhere near as awful as attach, but still, it shows the disturbing trend and proves that radio would not support a weakling follow up single, like it did with Diana Ross and the Supremes several times.

    I do think they should have held back new ways but love stays until they had another single to put on it…… How long could it possibly have taken? FrankWilsonran couldn’t come up with anything in a timely manner, there were lots of producers at Motown that would have loved to work with Jean Marie and Cindy and that great record could have been inserted on the album as an anomaly - like these things will keep me loving you and Ross’s first album. I know they were attempting to have some sort of a concept album, and there is some merit to the work that they did, there’s just not another hit single there and I think it was shortsighted of Motown to put it out that way.
    i love reading your posts Maniac. even if i don't agree with every point, i find your POV well informed, grounded and compelling!

    i would LOVE to get into the marketing budget distributions from motown at this time. i agree with your claim that there definitely was marketing money spent on the Sups at this time but was it the RIGHT money? FM stations were on the rise and there were major shifts in popular entertainment. Vegas was closing show rooms, youth culture was becoming more and more the predominant force in record sales. and then you have the prim and proper Supremes skipping along chirping their little ditties.

    with NW, had they made a couple changes, i think they could have had an album that might have had some appeal to these changes. obviously the dumb cover and title. and adjust a couple tracks and you could have had a really powerful soul-rock-opera album. with the new group they could have done more to evolve the image and positioning of the group to adapt to these changes

    so with these budgets, how much was spent on dj conventions, building relationships with station managers? and this really applies to DR, Four Tops and other motown groups at this time.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,740
    Rep Power
    191
    i've mentioned before that the chart activity for NW was really weird. it also got multiple billboard ads, which is really unusual.

    NW was on the charts for 17 weeks which isn't a horrible run. not the best but not too bad. RO was on for 19, for instance.

    NW and Mag7 entered the charts within 1 week of each other and there's no denying the cannibalistic effect of this.

    also NW would rise and fall and rise again, which is also very unusual

    165-123-115-80-73-78-82-82-71-71-68-69-69-68-78-102-130

    the rising sort of time with when the girls appeared on tv. The chart entry level is a bit low but not unheard of with a Sups album. many DRATS era records entered at this level. interestingly, RO entered at 37. it spent many weeks bubbling around in the 30s and 20s.

    37-29-26-25-28-36-48-64-72-74-84-84-93-95-124-138-136-139-137

    so something was definitely going on here with both albums. RO had a VERY strong start and could have probably gone higher with some additional effort. NW seems like a car's motor that's trying and trying to get going but never quite does

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,499
    Rep Power
    133
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i love reading your posts Maniac. even if i don't agree with every point, i find your POV well informed, grounded and compelling!

    i would LOVE to get into the marketing budget distributions from motown at this time. i agree with your claim that there definitely was marketing money spent on the Sups at this time but was it the RIGHT money? FM stations were on the rise and there were major shifts in popular entertainment. Vegas was closing show rooms, youth culture was becoming more and more the predominant force in record sales. and then you have the prim and proper Supremes skipping along chirping their little ditties.

    with NW, had they made a couple changes, i think they could have had an album that might have had some appeal to these changes. obviously the dumb cover and title. and adjust a couple tracks and you could have had a really powerful soul-rock-opera album. with the new group they could have done more to evolve the image and positioning of the group to adapt to these changes

    so with these budgets, how much was spent on dj conventions, building relationships with station managers? and this really applies to DR, Four Tops and other motown groups at this time.
    thank you very much, I enjoy yours as well of course. I remember when I bought right on, I couldn’t play side one enough. I remember when I bought new Waze but love stays also. I loved the title and still do. I think it’s clever in that it suggests that yes we’re still the Supremes but we’re taking you into a new direction. Oh I loved the central photograph, and wasn’t as crazy about the glam photographs, but that’s a whole Nother issue that I won’t get involved in right now, but the photographs illustrated the title beautifully. Looking back 50 years, it’s easy to poke holes in the cover but at the time I didn’t hear anybody crabbing about the cover at all, I think it would’ve been better with the Afro pictures only, but for its day, it was well done, just a little too Barbie doll-ish. Anyway, I digress again. When I first play the album I rolled my eyes at the first cut until it’s segued into stone glove and I was going apeshit I loved it so much [[of course my love was tempered by the tempered stereo mix of stoned love, but that’s another story.) I thought bridge over troubled water was ambitious, but I wasn’t knocked out by it. Time to break down was a good slow groove that was wonderful and breaking wonderful new ground for the supremes. The rest we have hashed out 5 million times, but I thought it was a very solid effort that just wasn’t grabbing me like it would the general public, only it didn’t grab the general public either. Once again, However, I was faced with the dilemma Of wanting to like it more than I did. This was still THE SUPREMES, and as such, I should be enthralled and I wasn’t. Looking back, as great a singer has a Jean Terrell is, she’s no Dennis Edwards. They needed a Dennis Edwards, someone who would forge a new direction without being compared and it didn’t happen that way. With Dennis Joining the Temptations, no one ever even mentioned David Ruffin after that and he was so damn huge and wonderful and irreplaceable, until he was replaced with Dennis Edwards. To me it felt like this was not the Supremes, because I never really excepted Cindy, and now we have another new one, and now all we have left is my least favorite to begin with, and I had issues with that but still I couldn’t comprehend them not being in my heart. But they were not in my heart, really. I know many people who felt the same way, but whether or not this was the prevalent feeling at the time I don’t know. I do now that after the first year, I noticed that nobody gave a damn about the Supremes anymore as a group as an iconic entity, they were just another girl group but the highest level of just another girl group. And I think that’s why they’re album sales suffered so much after right on which as you pointed out did extremely well. With a big hit record, an album prominently displayed around stores, and a long version to that big hit, I can’t help but think this was not a marketing deal mistake, I think people were jumping off the Supremes train, many weren’t even waiting until the next stop. The dismal showings of their albums I think can suggest nothing else. I think if they had a killer album that knocked it out of the park, they could’ve had a whole new following like Marvin Gaye got after what’s going on. Even grapevine didn’t do it for him. What’s going on made him God.

    and Mary, may she rest in peace, blames everything on lack of support and Motown because I personally don’t believe that she could live with the fact that the group couldn’t make it without diana ross. They might have been able to with better material or a different lead singer, or maybe better vision for the group image, but as it played out, it just wasn’t enough to be caption of the hearts of the existing Supremes fans or new ones.

    I would love to know in the year end chart rankings from billboard Where diana ross, diana ross and the Supremes, and the Supremes, all landed. I think it would tell quite a different story that what Mary suggested in dream girl.
    Last edited by TheMotownManiac; 06-02-2021 at 11:04 AM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    6,027
    Rep Power
    113
    Marketing is a valuable tool in the music business. To discount it leaves the conversation void of possible factors. No doubt in my mind that the album does a whole lot better had it been titled "Stoned Love". Everybody knew the song, it was a hit, title the album after the hit. Seems like a no brainer. The same can be applied to Touch. Title it Nathan Jones and the numbers improve. I think the cover art should've been the afro photo [[or any other from that session) without the other pics and without the pink coloring. The dramatic photo by itself would've been more eye catching, more intriguing.

    I don't think it's as simple as nobody cared and so the album didn't sale. A second single would've also helped. This is the same label that thought releasing "The Composer", "The Weight", and "Everybody's Got the Right To Love" were good ideas. Y'all trying to tell me that it was a stretch for somebody at the label to think "Mirror", "Breakdown", "Shine" or some other song from New Ways wasn't worth the time? Yeah right.

    Motown messed the Supremes up at this point. Mag7 and NW definitely cannibalized each other. Making matter worst, they did the same thing with Touch, as if the public was screaming for another Supremes-Tops album. Nothing about this release schedule makes sense. Nothing about teaming these two groups up for three- THREE- albums made any sense.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,491
    Rep Power
    188
    To my point, what is also interesting is the NWBLS is one of very few Supremes releases to only have one single lifted. Most always had at least two, often three. Besides the "specialty" albums, JIMMY WEBB is the only other LP I can think of that only had one single.

    Of course comparing NWBLS to JW is like comparing apples to oranges. With one you had the group still at the peak; the other it was more of a valley.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,740
    Rep Power
    191
    given that Diana's record sales and chart performance wasn't stellar, i think the issue is more that maybe Motown as becoming a bit passe at this time. for Diana's debut album to only go to 19 is concerning. plus she had 1 mega hit and a bunch of ok songs. yes, yes. we fans adore Remember Me but it's chart run isn't particularly noteworthy and it really doesn't have much recognition outside of the fan circle today. same with Surrender and Reach out i'll be there. I would speculate that ROAT is only remembered today because of it's creative use as an anchor song in her shows for decades.

    Marvin and Stevie broke the mold of motown by pushing into the lp market. The Temps seem to have had some success here too during the early 70s because they also broke the mold - their psychedelic soul style and their harder hitting songs. J5 worked because EVERY kid until 12 bought their stuff lol

    and this also brings us back to my questions about HOW the marketing budget was spent. where there massive cardboard in-store displays for NW or for RO? what special deals and window art was created?

    i don't think the entire problem of NW is able to be blamed solely on the pink cover. but i think it was all just part of the problem:
    *pink cover
    *title not calling out the hit
    *wasted inner cover space of gatefold - put in some cool info, pics, content on the girls, etc something to make people curious
    *interviews with the girls still giggling about how much they go shopping
    *on tv shows still singing MOR songs

    both mary and diana have said that even if she had stayed with the group, they would have had to make some major changes. the "supremes" concept was about run out and so they needed something totally new, regardless of members

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    7,375
    Rep Power
    210
    I must admit that I never thought the lack of success with NWBLS was due to its cover design or that it wasn't titled STONED LOVE after the hit.

    First, I actually think NWBLS is a cool title. Second, I love the rear Afros photo but you still had a stunning Afros photo taking up the majority of the front cover. Titling it STONED LOVE might have been a no-brainer, although I could swear I saw some copies with a STONED LOVE sticker on the front.

    But RIGHT ON wasn't titled after any of its singles either, plus it had the group posed in Diana-era gowns and it still managed to hit #25. Maybe some of the people who bought RIGHT ON didn't enjoy it enough to purchase the follow-up. Plus I still think having NWBLS and THE MAGNIFICENT 7 album released so close together might have diluted sales for both. Each had a hit single so there was obviously potential interest but it seems like Motown didn't give either project enough time to reach its full potential before shipping out something else.
    Last edited by reese; 06-02-2021 at 12:01 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    4,584
    Rep Power
    102
    Any of the ideas suggested [all of which have been suggested for decades) could have made a positive impact on lp sales, but I stand by my theory, formed by anecdotal I-was-there experience, that the general public simply tired of the group after the post-Diana 'new girl' novelty had worn off. Individual singles here and there had some chart impact but said impact was based on public response to the song, not the group name.
    Last edited by PeaceNHarmony; 06-02-2021 at 01:10 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,740
    Rep Power
    191
    there was a general decline in interest in Supremes records starting with Reflections in 67. Yes there were moments of big sellers - Join Tempts and TCB. those two lps greatly benefited by this HUGE phenomenon of these super groups partnering. The single was huge, the album was released in Nov, just prior to the huge tv special. if you look at the chart run, the album was greatly boosted by the tv show.

    LC did ok but given earlier Sups albums, hitting #14 and having a song a HUGE as the title track isn't a major success.

    Everything else really only did so-so.

    So there was a clear trend DOWN on the group starting in 67.

    I do agree with some of the comments on here that maybe people were just "sequinned out"

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,491
    Rep Power
    188
    I've always thought "NEW WAYS BUT LOVE STAYS" would have been the PERFECT title for their first album. With Diana leaving and the group name changing back, it just made sense. Maybe "RIGHT ON" would have been a better title for their second album?

    As it was, I think the cover for "RIGHT ON" is spot on. You've got a close-up of the group, in sequins [[as expected?), and a gatefold with each member signing their name [[so you knew who was who?). The album, to my ears at least, was still very much "pop", and to I think the package as a whole is "supreme". Well, maybe not Jean's missing beads, but whatever.

    "NEW WAYS BUT LOVE STAYS" is a whole other beast. You've got the group going into a more "soulful" sound, yet the cover is anything but: hot pink and sequins and bouffant wigs. A big disconnect. I'll bet it was around this time that Jean started getting tired of "the image".

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1,899
    Rep Power
    126
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Well, maybe not Jean's missing beads, but whatever.
    Oh noes! The "missing beads" police are coming for you! LOL!

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    4,584
    Rep Power
    102
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    there was a general decline in interest in Supremes records starting with Reflections in 67. Yes there were moments of big sellers - Join Tempts and TCB. those two lps greatly benefited by this HUGE phenomenon of these super groups partnering. The single was huge, the album was released in Nov, just prior to the huge tv special. if you look at the chart run, the album was greatly boosted by the tv show.

    LC did ok but given earlier Sups albums, hitting #14 and having a song a HUGE as the title track isn't a major success.

    Everything else really only did so-so.

    So there was a clear trend DOWN on the group starting in 67.

    I do agree with some of the comments on here that maybe people were just "sequinned out"
    'Sequinned out' - LOVE it! And after Jean's initial run of hits newer and younger trios were beginning to establish themselves while seeming more modern than the decade-recording Supremes. Aging out is a part of the issue as well. It's great that the Supremes have a loyal following that continues to think the group shoulda-woulda-coulda been superstars forevermore if not for bad album cover choices/incorrect singles issued/wrong wigs/record label chicanery etc, but there is really no precedent for that in the business in general.
    Last edited by PeaceNHarmony; 06-02-2021 at 04:20 PM.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Posts
    627
    Rep Power
    29
    I think the Supremes during this period simply reflected Motown's divided attention. It's worth repeating that during this time period Motown's number one priority was the Jackson 5 and not the Supremes. Not to mention that Berry Gordy's attention was shifting towards making movies and moving the company's headquarters from Detroit to LA. I think Stevie's and Marvin's careers flourished during this period because they were less reliant on Motown's in-house writers and producers. Motown suffered greatly from the departure of HDH in early '68. The Four Tops and Martha & the Vandellas never fully recovered, and by '72 both groups were gone from Motown.

    Regarding New Ways, why put out an album where you could not at least pull a second hit single from? I love the album but I just think Motown didn't really care about albums and their business model was still more focused on the sale of hit 45s.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    672
    Rep Power
    68
    Why do some like to make it seem as if the Supremes in the early 70ís looked like someoneís grandma? Not everyone younger wore hot pants and had an Afro. Glamour has always been a staple in the black community. So that style was not outdated. Same with the wigs. All one has to to is look at old family photo albums.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,491
    Rep Power
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    Why do some like to make it seem as if the Supremes in the early 70ís looked like someoneís grandma? Not everyone younger wore hot pants and had an Afro. Glamour has always been a staple in the black community. So that style was not outdated. Same with the wigs. All one has to to is look at old family photo albums.
    It may not have been outdated in the general public, but put Jean, Mary, and Cindy in their falls and Diana-era dresses up against the Three Degrees and Honey Cone, and they look like three bridemaids.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,740
    Rep Power
    191
    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    I think the Supremes during this period simply reflected Motown's divided attention. It's worth repeating that during this time period Motown's number one priority was the Jackson 5 and not the Supremes. Not to mention that Berry Gordy's attention was shifting towards making movies and moving the company's headquarters from Detroit to LA. I think Stevie's and Marvin's careers flourished during this period because they were less reliant on Motown's in-house writers and producers. Motown suffered greatly from the departure of HDH in early '68. The Four Tops and Martha & the Vandellas never fully recovered, and by '72 both groups were gone from Motown.

    Regarding New Ways, why put out an album where you could not at least pull a second hit single from? I love the album but I just think Motown didn't really care about albums and their business model was still more focused on the sale of hit 45s.
    i think you're right in that Motown was focused on sales, and primarily 45 sales. they were not looking for "artistic statements" but for money.

    DR 70 only got to 19 but was on the charts for 28 weeks. so even though it charted only slightly higher than Right On, it was much more successful in terms of units sold.

    And i've always contended that was the whole rationale behind the duet albums with the Tops. even though they didn't sell all that well, they certainly sold more units than NOT releasing an album. never mind that they might have eroded the brand image of the group.

    Let's say that sales forecasts for New Ways was 200K with a stretch goal of 250K if things really go well. Motown could issue Mag 7 at the same time and probably erode some sales of NW. so maybe NW drops to 175K and Mag 7 does 100K. well you're now at a total of 275K sold, which is more than the 250K stretch goal of NW just by itself.

    so at the end of the day more sales and more money was made by offering these competing albums. no one was thinking "well maybe NW would be a classic and we need to preserve the equity of the brand "The Supremes"

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    2,392
    Rep Power
    157
    Thought the ladies looked and sounded great, but in 1970 the standards needed to go and the group concentrate on their own music.
    Every now and then I would like a new number like Where you lead, we've only just begun but , personally .give me the hits

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,499
    Rep Power
    133
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    It may not have been outdated in the general public, but put Jean, Mary, and Cindy in their falls and Diana-era dresses up against the Three Degrees and Honey Cone, and they look like three bridemaids.
    thatís so very true, and none of them at the time actually had the glam factor to carry off the lock. The Supremes look worked overtime because diana ross had that something extra that said, ďyes Iím wearing this Outrageous million dollar dress, so what? ď allowing the others to fit in as well. When you look at JML, MSS, MSC, and a lot of JCM - they often look ridiculous because the clothes are wearing them not the other way around. Thatís why a new look was desperately needed. The photographs on the return of magnificent seven are an embarrassment to both groups. They look ridiculous. If I was Jean Terrell, I would not have worn one gown from Diana Ross and the Supremes. New sound, new look, new attitudeÖ Thatís what the new Supremes needed

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,499
    Rep Power
    133
    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    I think the Supremes during this period simply reflected Motown's divided attention. It's worth repeating that during this time period Motown's number one priority was the Jackson 5 and not the Supremes. Not to mention that Berry Gordy's attention was shifting towards making movies and moving the company's headquarters from Detroit to LA. I think Stevie's and Marvin's careers flourished during this period because they were less reliant on Motown's in-house writers and producers. Motown suffered greatly from the departure of HDH in early '68. The Four Tops and Martha & the Vandellas never fully recovered, and by '72 both groups were gone from Motown.

    Regarding New Ways, why put out an album where you could not at least pull a second hit single from? I love the album but I just think Motown didn't really care about albums and their business model was still more focused on the sale of hit 45s.
    I couldn’t agree more. The loss of Holland Dozier Holland left a gaping Maw in the material pool at Motown. It’s Possible that Motown felt stoned love was so strong that they thought the album would do well with it just with one single, based on the sales of right on it seemed absolutely certain to them that the next album would do even better with that sure fire hit like stone love. I honestly think that must be what they were thinking. And if some album track caught on, they would’ve jumped on it and issued it as a single. I think the thinking was that same thought process for the magnificent seven. About the Supremes and four tops were coming off successful albums - They had a great single they had every reason to think that album was going to do well also. I do not believe that they cannibalize each other at all because of what I said previously. Both the Supremes and the Temptations I had two and three albums in the top 20 at a time.
    Last edited by TheMotownManiac; 06-02-2021 at 08:15 PM.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,499
    Rep Power
    133
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Marketing is a valuable tool in the music business. To discount it leaves the conversation void of possible factors. No doubt in my mind that the album does a whole lot better had it been titled "Stoned Love". Everybody knew the song, it was a hit, title the album after the hit. Seems like a no brainer. The same can be applied to Touch. Title it Nathan Jones and the numbers improve. I think the cover art should've been the afro photo [[or any other from that session) without the other pics and without the pink coloring. The dramatic photo by itself would've been more eye catching, more intriguing.

    I don't think it's as simple as nobody cared and so the album didn't sale. A second single would've also helped. This is the same label that thought releasing "The Composer", "The Weight", and "Everybody's Got the Right To Love" were good ideas. Y'all trying to tell me that it was a stretch for somebody at the label to think "Mirror", "Breakdown", "Shine" or some other song from New Ways wasn't worth the time? Yeah right.

    Motown messed the Supremes up at this point. Mag7 and NW definitely cannibalized each other. Making matter worst, they did the same thing with Touch, as if the public was screaming for another Supremes-Tops album. Nothing about this release schedule makes sense. Nothing about teaming these two groups up for three- THREE- albums made any sense.
    there were stickers on the outside of the album that said includes the hit single Stoned Love so there was no mistaking what was on that album. And probably I’m more hits album cover would’ve helped some, but Motown did pretty well with some shitty album covers like Diana Ross and the Supremes join the Temptations, Supremes and temptstogether - The failure of new ways but loves days I do not think can be attributed to the cover or to marketing because the best marketing tool of all is a hit single and it had that. Word of mouth on a good album is the second best marketing tool. The Ford tops weren’t selling any albums at all anymore and the still waters album sold like crazy because of word-of-mouth, diana ross is chic album blasted out of the gate with absolutely no single, no television promotion no radio support - And word-of-mouth was instantaneous. And it makes sense that there would be less interest in Supremes albums because by this time it was apparent that there was less interest in Supremes concerts and the year of bookings that they had pre-booked prior to diana ross leaving the Supremes had been played out, and the new gigs were often a step down or two. And I do think just the Afro pic Cover would’ve helped a great deal with the album sale and the Supremes image, but they were still parading around in old Supremes gowns that were ridiculously out of step with the current market.

    I believe Motown did not release a second single because they didn’t have any belief in one of them being able to take off. This is important because Motown didn’t want to put a record out, promote it to their sales people and the program directors around the country and lean on them to play it, just to have a tank Because then it lessens their power and ability to flex a little muscle on the next record to come out. I believe they thought the composer and the weight could hit.

    I don’t think naming the touch album Nathan Jones would’ve helped because it wasn’t that big of a hit. I mean it was a hit, but it wasn’t any bigger than river deep mountain high and look where that got the magnificent seven. Supremes fans like the touch album, Yeah but I think it was a disjointed mess with absolutely no commercial appeal whatsoever. I agree with you that Motown was making mistakes, look at the way they bungle diana ross’ first 2 years as a solo artist… It’s ridiculous. “From the company that brought you touch by the Supremes, we now present sleepin’ by diana ross “ only one single from Touch me in the morning…… They were Cray Cray…… But the writing was on the wall by the end of 1970, and whoever was in charge of the Supremes, or the supreme‘s themselves, or Mary “in-hindsight” Wilson Should’ve taking the bull by the horns get a stylist or two or three and reinvent the group. Instead, they went down with the ship thinking maybe that gaping hole would stop leading water in.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    20,556
    Rep Power
    339
    There wasnít another single on NW - certainly not Together we Can Make. There were many decent songs but no hit singles.

    Some of the ideas here would have helped a little bit but the Supremes were old by 1969; there was a small resurgence in 1970 with Up The Ladder but Right On never sold well nor did any subsequent album.

    They looked outdated and releasing Touch as a single sank them and to me, that was the beginning of the end.

    They needed to combine NW and Touch, get a whole new look which would cost $$$ they didnít have and release Nathan after Stoned Love, have them on the same album and ditch the single Touch totally.

    The trouble is I donít think that even all of that would have saved them.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    523
    Rep Power
    55
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post

    I donít think naming the touch album Nathan Jones wouldíve helped because it wasnít that big of a hit. I mean it was a hit, but it wasnít any bigger than river deep mountain high and look where that got the magnificent seven. Supremes fans like the touch album, Yeah but I think it was a disjointed mess with absolutely no commercial appeal whatsoever. I agree with you that Motown was making mistakes, look at the way they bungle diana rossí first 2 years as a solo artistÖ
    Name:  2021-06-02 20_58_54-Free Screencapture.jpg
Views: 219
Size:  12.9 KB

    From my viewpoint, Touch is a wonderful album title that co-ordinates well with the cover photo, gently pulling one in to deeper levels. Presented not in staid left-over Diana or new out-dated show biz wear, it offers a more natural depiction of the Supremes clad quite lightly, imagery both inviting and enticing. Mary, Cindy & Jean here exude confidence and softness, sexuality and strength. As the saying goes 'Black is beautiful" and their inner and outer beauty was ebullient.
    Although one could not touch any of them physically or emotionally at that moment, one could allow the music to caress one's soul and spirit here and now.
    The black and white photo is surrounded not by small cut-away framed performance and posed shots as in their previous effort [New Ways But Love Stays], but by rays of color eminating either from above or from within, based on one's interpretation, bespeaking the energy and layering of vocals that would eminate forth from the trio and the elements of earth and heaven lyrically intermixed.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,740
    Rep Power
    191
    when DR went solo, she kept much of the glitter but she also evolved her image. DR 70 and Surrender are high quality albums. and there was moderate interest in her material. But other than Mountain, none of her pre-Lady material did nearly as well as it should have. had she not made that massive splash with the movie, she would probably have never reached the peaks that she did. that career movie did more for her than any 1 other solo effort or recording. it elevated her to mega-star status and totally reinvented her persona

    the supremes made some modifications to their image but never totally reinvented themselves. being a group, they couldn't really do something like Lady. or at least to the degree that Diana did. so not sure what else they really could have done. no group really lasts for decades and so hence my comment about the girls be "sequinned out." They certainly though could have maintained a more consistent level of product and kept more in step with trends. as we've discussed their stage act, the endless covers, the giggling glam girls was played out by this time

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,488
    Rep Power
    140
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddh View Post
    i thought Together we can make such sweet music was a possibility , but then the Spinners got the single release, but then, i would have went with Time To Break Down.
    to many covers but yet still a good album.
    my playlist version delettes most covers and adds All I Need and Love Train
    When I first heard the New Ways lp I assumed Together would be the first single and SL the second. When SL came out most of us just assumed Together would follow. Then when the ladies did Breakdown on Flip Wilson I started to think that would be the next single and I don't think Breakdown was single material. The only other single possibilities I hear on New Ways is Together or Thank Him For Today.

    Motown was sluggish on following up Stoned Love. This is because Mary had demanded an accounting of her income from Motown and was wanting more control of the group. Motown did not take well to this and this started a downward spiral that the Supremes never recovered from.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,740
    Rep Power
    191
    Quote Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan View Post
    When I first heard the New Ways lp I assumed Together would be the first single and SL the second. When SL came out most of us just assumed Together would follow. Then when the ladies did Breakdown on Flip Wilson I started to think that would be the next single and I don't think Breakdown was single material. The only other single possibilities I hear on New Ways is Together or Thank Him For Today.

    Motown was sluggish on following up Stoned Love. This is because Mary had demanded an accounting of her income from Motown and was wanting more control of the group. Motown did not take well to this and this started a downward spiral that the Supremes never recovered from.
    fascinating info Bayou!! and talk about a "what if" scenario. damn. i'm not discrediting Mary for asking for accounting and all. but maybe it was a little premature. if SL had gone #1 and NW been a huge hit album, maybe THAT would have been the time to do that. when the act was super hot again and completely re-established after the Diana exit.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,423
    Rep Power
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    I think the Supremes during this period simply reflected Motown's divided attention. It's worth repeating that during this time period Motown's number one priority was the Jackson 5 and not the Supremes.

    Regarding New Ways, why put out an album where you could not at least pull a second hit single from? I love the album but I just think Motown didn't really care about albums and their business model was still more focused on the sale of hit 45s.
    First of all, Motown's First Priority in the early '70s was Diana Ross [followed by The Jackson Five and then all the others still doing well at the company]. As far as pulling a second single from the New Ways... LP, I think that Motown saw that having them have a big hit with the duet with The Four Tops on "River Deep-Mountain High" was enough after "Stoned Love" so they just moved on to The Supremes next album, Touch. And as I've learned from another thread on this site, Motown couldn't afford to just release whatever single they wanted [since each one of them took manufacturing & promotional costs]. Finally, add to all of that Berry Gordy's shift away from the music business and into Movies & TV Specials.

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,423
    Rep Power
    148
    It's also worth noting that the follow up albums to The Supremes' New Ways But Love Stays had multiple singles taken from them. Touch had "Nathan Jones" & the title track while Floy Joy had "Automatically Sunshine", "Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" and the title song. IMHO, the real downturn for The Supremes kicked in with "I Guess I'll Miss The Man" [and the Produced & Arranged by Jim Webb album].
    Last edited by Motown Eddie; 06-05-2021 at 02:23 PM.

  37. #37
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    388
    Rep Power
    127
    Sometimes we just want too much . I think with the Tops duets the market was overflowing with Supremes for another single release. Same with the time they released Love Child, the Temps Duet and TCB etc.

    Jimmy webb LP had far less potential for a second single release than New ways. Although I still think Once in the morning should have been released despite the drugs reference, just what I read somewhere. Melody wise it's probably my favourite from the album. Also like it because it doesn't have the heavy background vocals like some of the other songs.

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    6,027
    Rep Power
    113
    It's also worth considering that the 70s crowd just didn't care about female groups anymore. The fact remains that, song for song, the 70s Supremes were still the most successful female singing group of the 70s. No other female group had more top 40 hits than they did. I wrote up a whole comparison between the 70s Supremes and the other female groups of the decade in another post some time ago and I'm too lazy to look it up. But I believe the big difference was in the fact that groups like Labelle and the Emotions and the Honey Cone managed to secure a number one pop hit, which escaped the 70s Supremes. I think Labelle, the Emotions, Love Unlimited, the Pointer Sisters [[during the Supremes existence) managed a certified gold album and/or had one album go top 10, which of course also escaped the 70s Supremes. [[Just checked, the Pointers had two gold albums during the 70s Supremes existence.) For all the talk about the 3 Degrees, the truth is that aside from "When Will I See You" [[and their presence on "TSOP"), they too were largely ignored in the States during their time and for my personal taste, they recorded much better music than the 70s Supremes did.

    For some reason the public has this love/hate relationship with female groups. There was this explosion during the early 60s and then by the mid 60s there was barely anybody left standing except the Supremes and Martha and the Vandellas. Eventually there was no one left but the Supremes. Then the 70s saw some more ladies hit the scene but of the successful ones no one could really sustain the popularity beyond a mega hit. And then many of the groups basically disappeared until really only the Pointers were left, and they managed to find a groove and ride it out well into the 80s. The 90s saw another female group explosion but by the turn of the century, the number had dwindled to Destiny's Child and one or two others. When DC called it quits, there was no one left and unless I'm mistaken, there hasn't been a female group since that has made any real impact in the business. Meanwhile, groups of males have never ceased being a thing. There isn't a period when a male group/band isn't among the top artists of the period.

    Maybe the 70s Supremes were just a victim of this strange phenomenon.

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    5,740
    Rep Power
    191
    Ran - you could also look at trends with types/genres of music. there are periods where boy bands and "pop" is hot, other times other categories are king. You're right that there are periods where female groups are the IT thing and times when they're not. I think that's part of the cycle of popular music. individual artists are more flexible and free to adjust to trends. While they too typically have some specific genres they focus on, they can pivot more easily than a group. seems like groups have a more pre-defined image

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

[REMOVE ADS]

Ralph Terrana
MODERATOR

Welcome to Soulful Detroit! Kindly Consider Turning Off Your Ad BlockingX
Soulful Detroit is a free service that relies on revenue from ad display [regrettably] and donations. We notice that you are using an ad-blocking program that prevents us from earning revenue during your visit.
Ads are REMOVED for Members who donate to Soulful Detroit. [You must be logged in for ads to disappear]
DONATE HERE »
And have Ads removed.