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  1. #1
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    Supremes / Four Tops duets LP's question?

    Much has been discussed about the saturation of Supremes/Four Tops duets albums in 1970/1971. Most of these thoughts and theories have some through the eyes of the Supremes and/or fans.

    I'm wondering what the Four Tops might have thought about the three albums?

    With the Supremes, at least you had a solo release in between each duet album:

    Right On
    Mag 7
    New Ways
    Return of Mag 7
    Touch
    Dynamite

    But with the Four Tops, it literally was three duets albums in a row [[their next after the duet was incidentally their last for Motown until they returned years later).
    Last edited by marybrewster; 05-24-2021 at 11:24 AM.

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    Be nice if Duke would write a book. Maybe that would shed some light on the issue from the Tops' perspective. It's sad that of the big Motown acts, the Tops are the only ones who don't have a documented thorough history. Duke is the last remaining member. I can't imagine why this isn't a thing yet.

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    the first duet album performed quite well in the UK. i believe the album charted in the Top Ten. so it's possible that the subsequent albums were more for the UK market, but they still released them in both.

    also the holiday period was a HUGE time for gifting albums. motown would have been eager to get something/anything new for the Sups and the Tops for Christmas. I think that's why Dynamite was issued - just to have something new in the bins for shoppers.

    As for the Tops, they enjoyed a resurgence in 70 with the Still Water collection. the singles performed quite well and the lp did too. but then Changing Times [[in late 70) didn't do as well. it could be that the competition with Mag 7, which was released around the same time, impacted sales. but IMO Changing Times is nowhere near as enjoyable a set as Still Water or Nature Planned It.

    in 71 the Tops re-released Four Tops Now! as MacArthur Park. i think the story goes that somehow or other their rendition of MP started to get some interest again in 71 and so it was issued as a single. Rather than bother with pulling together a new album to house this single from 68 or so, they just re-released the older album with new cover art and title

    then in early 72 they released A Simple Game, which i believe was done with the Moody Blues. it did great in UK but bombed here. Guess they were trying to experiment and go in a new direction. but no luck in the states.

    In later 72 we got Nature Planned It. this is a very solid album and it's a shame it was their last one. perhaps if this had been issued as a follow up to Still Water back in late 70 or early 71, things might have been different

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    Love the first duet album but I hardly ever listen to the other two. I think they should have kept it with the one duet album and then continued on their own projects. Still water and nature planned it were and still are great albums. The later 2 duet albums just seem like a bit of a let down. I think I'll need to re-read the booklet from the expanded duet album. If I remember correctly they did enjoy the sessions together "Mary, Cindy and Duke all speak very positively in the booklet about them".

    Simple game is one of my all time fave Four Tops song. I wonder why it did to bad in the States. Got the feeling I've already asked this before lol.

    Another thing might be that they just didn't really know what to do with the Supremes during that period. I mean the promises kept sessions after the duet albums just doesn't seem to have any cohesiveness to me. I like some of the songs but I can't see a solid album with any song line-up.

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    Frank Wilson helmed the first Sups albums and those early 70s albums by the Tops. and yet his work on the duets was only so-so. He was the overall producer on Return and Dynamite [[although some individual tracks were by other producers). He had such a perfect ear for interesting songs, backing tracks, effects and more on the groups' individual albums that it's a shame that same level of production detail wasn't applied to the duets.

    it really seems that these were simply efforts to flood the market with material and gather up whatever sales possible. these definitely were not artist statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    Love the first duet album but I hardly ever listen to the other two. I think they should have kept it with the one duet album and then continued on their own projects. Still water and nature planned it were and still are great albums. The later 2 duet albums just seem like a bit of a let down. I think I'll need to re-read the booklet from the expanded duet album. If I remember correctly they did enjoy the sessions together "Mary, Cindy and Duke all speak very positively in the booklet about them".

    Simple game is one of my all time fave Four Tops song. I wonder why it did to bad in the States. Got the feeling I've already asked this before lol.

    Another thing might be that they just didn't really know what to do with the Supremes during that period. I mean the promises kept sessions after the duet albums just doesn't seem to have any cohesiveness to me. I like some of the songs but I can't see a solid album with any song line-up.
    I agree, they should have kept it to the one. “Simple Game” is also one of my very favourite Four Tops songs. It did well here in the UK so am not sure what happened in the USA.
    A funk styled album with the Temptations might have been a better idea. It certainly would have broadened the groups appeal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Frank Wilson helmed the first Sups albums and those early 70s albums by the Tops. and yet his work on the duets was only so-so. He was the overall producer on Return and Dynamite [[although some individual tracks were by other producers). He had such a perfect ear for interesting songs, backing tracks, effects and more on the groups' individual albums that it's a shame that same level of production detail wasn't applied to the duets.

    it really seems that these were simply efforts to flood the market with material and gather up whatever sales possible. these definitely were not artist statements.
    They flooded the market with mediocre product.
    One album was more than enough.
    These albums were literally rushed out without much thought going into song quality.
    I can just about make a half decent album out of the trio that came out, but even that would be anything but a gem. They did nothing for the reputation of the Supremes or Four Tops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    They flooded the market with mediocre product.
    One album was more than enough.
    These albums were literally rushed out without much thought going into song quality.
    I can just about make a half decent album out of the trio that came out, but even that would be anything but a gem. They did nothing for the reputation of the Supremes or Four Tops.
    and your last point i think is one of the most important.

    this was such a critical point in time for the Supremes and the reputation was very precarious. to flood the market with crap, to have a half-hearted attempt at a really contemporary album like New Ways peter out, to have the girls still singing MOR standards on TV, to have people seeing them as giggly glamour girls is what really hurt their overall reputation

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    Would the Four Tops have fared better with Nature planned it if they had released it after the first duet album rather than after the 3rd, consecutive, duet album? Still water did well and is their third best charted album but these changing times didn't do much.

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    My mind is a bit foggy, but were't Mag 7 and Return Mag 7 separate recording sessions, and Dynamite just leftovers from both sessions?

    The choice of duet selection seems a bit uninspired.

    Maybe these albums would have worked better with one side Supremes, and one side Four Tops, ending each side with a duet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    My mind is a bit foggy, but were't Mag 7 and Return Mag 7 separate recording sessions, and Dynamite just leftovers from both sessions?

    The choice of duet selection seems a bit uninspired.

    Maybe these albums would have worked better with one side Supremes, and one side Four Tops, ending each side with a duet?
    Looking at recording dates, the majority of the tracks for THE RETURN... and DYNAMITE seem to be from sessions specifically for those albums.

    Most tracks started being recorded for THE RETURN in January of 1971 and the album was released the following June. Most of the tracks for DYNAMITE were recorded May / June of 1971 and released the following December. Both albums contained a few leftovers from 1970.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    Would the Four Tops have fared better with Nature planned it if they had released it after the first duet album rather than after the 3rd, consecutive, duet album? Still water did well and is their third best charted album but these changing times didn't do much.
    i agree. changing Times wasn't as strong of a collection. Seems like then the group pivoted and tried working with the moody blues. but that didn't click at all in the US. so they went back to Frank Wilson. but by then i think there'd been too much time since Still Water and their recording reputation needed a bigger boast in the arm. Jumping labels and a totally fresh take on things seems to do the trick

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    and your last point i think is one of the most important.

    this was such a critical point in time for the Supremes and the reputation was very precarious. to flood the market with crap, to have a half-hearted attempt at a really contemporary album like New Ways peter out, to have the girls still singing MOR standards on TV, to have people seeing them as giggly glamour girls is what really hurt their overall reputation
    Agree. Image is everything. They needed a less glam, more earthy presentation. MOR standards were the last thing they should have been performing. Those additional duet albums seemed to smack of desperation from a record company with no real vision or faith in where the group might be heading or what they were capable of.

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    I don't think any of the duet albums was bad. All three have their moments. If churning out good music for the sake of plain, ole good music was the goal, then I have no complaints. Some favorite cuts are on each album. But flooding the market with albums that didn't seem to have a purpose in elevating the new Supremes [[and the Tops, for that matter) in the consciousness of the public just seems like a waste of time. The first duet album should've been a one and done. Maybe revisit the pairing after about two years, and after some heavy thought had gone into production. I think the first album was very well produced. The second and third one remind me of the latter DRATS albums, sort of thrown together.

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    I think it was an interesting idea to pair the new Supremes with the Tops. The Supremes had great success with the Tempts, and with the Tops arguably being the second biggest male group at Motown, it seems like a no brainer to give this one a go. Plus the Tops came across as very mature. Jean's voice, IMO, lent the Supremes a new maturity that Diana's voice didn't. So I think it was an intriguing prospect to combine these two groups at this point.

    However, I'm now starting to wonder if it wouldn't have been a more lucrative idea to pair the new group with the Temptations. Imagine Jean funkin' her way through a Norman Whitfield production, going back and forth with Eddie or Dennis or even Paul. I think that would've been some match up.

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    I wonder what a "new" Supremes and Spinners duet album might have yielded.

    Can anyone hear Jean on "Then Came You"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I think it was an interesting idea to pair the new Supremes with the Tops. The Supremes had great success with the Tempts, and with the Tops arguably being the second biggest male group at Motown, it seems like a no brainer to give this one a go. Plus the Tops came across as very mature. Jean's voice, IMO, lent the Supremes a new maturity that Diana's voice didn't. So I think it was an intriguing prospect to combine these two groups at this point.

    However, I'm now starting to wonder if it wouldn't have been a more lucrative idea to pair the new group with the Temptations. Imagine Jean funkin' her way through a Norman Whitfield production, going back and forth with Eddie or Dennis or even Paul. I think that would've been some match up.
    as a career strategy, i think on paper the pairing is brilliant. Jean and Levi - holy fuck what an amazing potential combination. And IMO River delivered on that.

    but River was, unfortunately, more the exception than the rule when it came to the content the pairing yielded. so had they really pulled together top notch songs, then there's much more of a reason for the pairing

    also the strategy of simply swamping the bins at store w product was probably lucrative but not the being long-term decision. and swamping with mediocre is definitely not ideal.

    so the idea was great. execution was poor

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    The Magnificent Seven's complete recordings CD illustrated one thing: there may have been 20 strong performances/productions, if that, and there were a lot that did not live up to the reputation of either group or each group's previous releases.

    The lost big single, for me, was The Magnificent Seven's remake of Bread's If. It was arranged with imagination and a certain bit of magic, and it was akin to The Four Tops' long string of remakes, post-HDH, that became hits all over again. Levi and Jean worked and traded the lyrics well on If, their voices were at their finest and it seemed they were actually in the same room when completing the recording!

    Otherwise, much of the material and much of its presentation seemed rushed, unfelt and unnecessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I wonder what a "new" Supremes and Spinners duet album might have yielded.

    Can anyone hear Jean on "Then Came You"?
    Wouldn't have made sense until the Spinners skyrocketed, and that wouldn't happen until they left Motown. And of course Motown wasn't gonna lend out the Supremes, even a Diana Ross-less Supremes, to any other label. Having said that, had the Supremes jumped ship when Jean and Lynda wanted to, I think the new group could have had an equally big hit teaming up with the Spinners on "Then Came You".

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    Quote Originally Posted by benross View Post
    The Magnificent Seven's complete recordings CD illustrated one thing: there may have been 20 strong performances/productions, if that, and there were a lot that did not live up to the reputation of either group or each group's previous releases.

    The lost big single, for me, was The Magnificent Seven's remake of Bread's If. It was arranged with imagination and a certain bit of magic, and it was akin to The Four Tops' long string of remakes, post-HDH, that became hits all over again. Levi and Jean worked and traded the lyrics well on If, their voices were at their finest and it seemed they were actually in the same room when completing the recording!

    Otherwise, much of the material and much of its presentation seemed rushed, unfelt and unnecessary.
    "If" is a nice one. But my money was on "Do You Love Me Just A Little" as a lost hit from Dynamite.

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    I just downloaded all these albums from the Magnificent collection. All sound great to me.

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    i agree there are a handful of songs that could have been singles:

    river
    melodie
    i'm glad about it
    let's make love
    if
    bring back your love

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    I interviewed Jean Terrell in 1978 for her solo lp and we talked about the duet lps. She said she liked the first one and she felt she and Levi sounded good together and they did.

    Return of Mag 7 was a different story for Jean. She felt the material was sub par. Also because of time constraints the two groups were rarely in the studio together. They recorded the tracks and the producers mixed them in where they wanted them to be.

    Mary Wilson sang lead on Good Lovin' Ain't Easy To Come By. The producer didn't like her vocal so while the Supremes were performing in Chicago Jean was whisked into a recording studio the lay a vocal.

    Levi Stubbs was especially bitter about the failure of ROTMS and the single. When asked about it he said he didn't even want to talk about it. By this time the Tops were looking to leave Motown.

    I thought these lps were better than the Supremes/Temptations duets. I'd have to say ROTMS is my favorite as it has some original tracks on it. The others were mostly covers.

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    I kind of agree with Bayou. Song for song, I think I dig the duet albums with the Tops more than the ones with the Tempts. While I think Mag7 was the best produced of the three Tops lps, song for song it's probably my least favorite of the three, although side one is excellent from start to finish. Never was a fan of side 2. On the other hand, I love Join the Tempts. I have to be in the mood for TCB. I never listen to GIT and other than a few notable cuts, I'm not fond of Together either.

    Interesting note about "Good Lovin". I hope Mary's lead wasn't wiped.

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    I've also have preferred the duets with the Four Tops than with the Temptations. I've always loved the Four Tops more than the Temptations. And yes Jean and Levi are a great match together vocally. I know some fans don't like "Gotta Have Love" but I've always liked it.

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    I really like the Supremes and Four Tops albums and like floyjoy678 above, I like You Gotta Have Love.

    The real gem for me is the vaulted When I'm With You. Levi and Jean sing this song so very well. Magic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rovereab View Post
    I really like the Supremes and Four Tops albums and like floyjoy678 above, I like You Gotta Have Love.

    The real gem for me is the vaulted When I'm With You. Levi and Jean sing this song so very well. Magic!
    i agree that, once again, some of the vaulted tracks are stronger than released tracks.

    Return does have the plus of containing more original tunes but the plus dims when you realize that, while original, many are just weak songs. Too bad they didn't adjust or refine them. maybe put a bit more effort in and be less rushed. could have been magical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    I've also have preferred the duets with the Four Tops than with the Temptations. I've always loved the Four Tops more than the Temptations. And yes Jean and Levi are a great match together vocally. I know some fans don't like "Gotta Have Love" but I've always liked it.
    Same here floyjoy! It's not that I don't like the temps/supremes duets but the Four Tops is my favourite Motown act. I tend to only listen to I'm gonna make you love me from the Supremes/Temps duet albums. But listen far more regularly to all the songs of the Tops/ Supremes duet albums.

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    The LP cover for "Dynamite" is very blah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    The LP cover for "Dynamite" is very blah.
    as was the back cover - even worse actually

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    I would love to have heard a Jean & Levi duet album. No MOR numbers, perhaps a sprinkling of soul classics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    as was the back cover - even worse actually
    Isn't the back cover just the same as the front but mirrored or something? It looks cheap and something that was done in paint on a computer with cut and paste. I do love the cover of the expanded complete duet album.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    Isn't the back cover just the same as the front but mirrored or something? It looks cheap and something that was done in paint on a computer with cut and paste. I do love the cover of the expanded complete duet album.
    yep - my point exactly. while the front is blah it's at least SOMETHING. they at least put forth a bit of design effort. but the back was a complete cop out

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    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    I've also have preferred the duets with the Four Tops than with the Temptations. I've always loved the Four Tops more than the Temptations. And yes Jean and Levi are a great match together vocally. I know some fans don't like "Gotta Have Love" but I've always liked it.
    I love it too. Just think it needed a complete remix in order to make it work as a single.

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    I have a related question... is "Love The One You're With" from New Ways But Love Stays exactly the same as on Dynamite? Are the Tops just on backing vocals?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomatoTom123 View Post
    I have a related question... is "Love The One You're With" from New Ways But Love Stays exactly the same as on Dynamite? Are the Tops just on backing vocals?
    yes - not really sure why the opted to include that song in the NW cd but for some reason they did. it was recorded well after the NW album was released. i guess because it's the 1 song of the duets that's really NOT a duet since Levi had no lead lines on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yes - not really sure why the opted to include that song in the NW cd but for some reason they did. it was recorded well after the NW album was released. i guess because it's the 1 song of the duets that's really NOT a duet since Levi had no lead lines on it.
    Ah thanks sup! I actually didn’t know it was a CD only bonus track! I thought it was on the original album, but no, just added to the CD reissue, which like you say is probably because it’s not really an actual duet.

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    on the Reflections cd they also added 2 non-album songs. All I know and Stay In My Lonely Arms. All I Know makes some sense - it was the B side of Happening but was the only Sups 45 song to NOT be included on any studio album.

    but none of the other cds from the 90s had bonus tracks added to them. and there really never was any explanation other than "here ya go" lol

    not sure if they were trying to get more of the catalog out, if the 90s cds originally were going to include alt tracks and unreleased songs [[sort of like mini EEs) or whomever was working on that release wanted to include it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    on the Reflections cd they also added 2 non-album songs. All I know and Stay In My Lonely Arms. All I Know makes some sense - it was the B side of Happening but was the only Sups 45 song to NOT be included on any studio album.

    but none of the other cds from the 90s had bonus tracks added to them. and there really never was any explanation other than "here ya go" lol

    not sure if they were trying to get more of the catalog out, if the 90s cds originally were going to include alt tracks and unreleased songs [[sort of like mini EEs) or whomever was working on that release wanted to include it.
    Sadly, when WE REMEMBER SAM COOKE was reissued on cd, GOOD NEWS was labeled as a bonus cut available on cd only, even though it was on the original album! Even worse, I believe it was deleted from the cassette reissue.
    Last edited by reese; 06-02-2021 at 11:43 AM.

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    [QUOTE=sup_fan;632709]on the Reflections cd they also added 2 non-album songs. All I know and Stay In My Lonely Arms. All I Know makes some sense - it was the B side of Happening but was the only Sups 45 song to NOT be included on any studio album.[Quote]

    Stay In My Lonely Arms was a previously unreleased track included on Motown 5380ML
    Never Before Released Masters From Motown's Brightest Stars: The 1960's. I suspect that there were requests to release it [and likely, the entire lp) on cd. As that lp was never put out on cd, this was a way to get the tune out to the greater public again.
    Perhaps George Solomon may have the inside track here? George, where are you? Where are you? Are you in the Magic Kingdom with Diane- "Isn't that Diane?'

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Sadly, when WE REMEMBER SAM COOKE was reissued on cd, GOOD NEWS labeled as a bonus cut available on cd only, even though it was on the original album! Even worse, I believe it was deleted from the cassette reissue.
    I bought the cassette. I had to order it from Camelot, if I remember correctly. Took about a week. Now that I think about it, it was Musicland, because I remember going into the mall to pick it up. Anyway, when I looked at the tracklist and saw that "Good News" wasn't on it, I was livid. Swore up and down that Motown had found a new way to stick it to Florence. I can still remember how pissed I was. Anyway, got it home and reluctantly started to play it, grumbling the whole time, not giving a shit that anything I was hearing was any good, disappointed that it wouldn't all end with "Good News". To my surprise, after "Change Gonna Come" went off, I was just about to angrily eject the tape when the intro to "Good News" started. It was there after all, just not listed on the tracklist for some very odd reason. And thank God, because it's possible that I would've been so disillusioned by that experience that I wouldn't have bothered to buy another Supremes album and my fandom would've waned. I think We Remember was the 3rd non compilation album of the Supremes I had [[proceeded by Meet and IHAS).

    See how close you all came to not having to deal with my insane Supremes opinions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I bought the cassette. I had to order it from Camelot, if I remember correctly. Took about a week. Now that I think about it, it was Musicland, because I remember going into the mall to pick it up. Anyway, when I looked at the tracklist and saw that "Good News" wasn't on it, I was livid. Swore up and down that Motown had found a new way to stick it to Florence. I can still remember how pissed I was. Anyway, got it home and reluctantly started to play it, grumbling the whole time, not giving a shit that anything I was hearing was any good, disappointed that it wouldn't all end with "Good News". To my surprise, after "Change Gonna Come" went off, I was just about to angrily eject the tape when the intro to "Good News" started. It was there after all, just not listed on the tracklist for some very odd reason. And thank God, because it's possible that I would've been so disillusioned by that experience that I wouldn't have bothered to buy another Supremes album and my fandom would've waned. I think We Remember was the 3rd non compilation album of the Supremes I had [[proceeded by Meet and IHAS).

    See how close you all came to not having to deal with my insane Supremes opinions?
    It is good to know that GOOD NEWS was indeed on the cassette and that we have your insane Supremes opinions to look forward to.

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    I might have touched on this subject before. I have no idea how "Good News" got listed as a bonus track and yet I was responsible for getting Sam Cooke on CD. Nobody could give me an answer on the mistake or omission from the cassette. There was no way I would have turned in the track list that way. Until I read this post I didn't realize that it actually was there on the cassette. I was in the studio when that CD was mastered and even found the full stereo version of "You Send Me" and replaced the one that faded on "at first I thought it was infatuation." I never understood that fade. I first heard that version on the Anthology. The Sam Cooke album I grew up with was mono so I only knew the full version of "You Send Me."
    At that time I'd do anything to get some extra songs on a Supremes CD. That is why I used so many songs from Jimmy Webb and Supremes 75 on Greatest Hits & Rare Classics. I was told those albums definitely would not get a CD release. The same with Dynamite. I didn't want to not have "Love The One You're With" somewhere on CD [[I didn't use it on Best Of Supremes & Four Tops). And since it didn't have a Levi lead and was co-produced by Frank Wilson, I thought I'd toss it on New Ways. My debate was where to place it. I didn't want to put it at the end because "Thank Him For Today" wrapped up the album so well. I placed it after "Is There A Place" which wasn't produced by Frank at all.
    At the time it seemed like these were the only chances we would ever have to get these songs on CD. The same with "All I Know About You" and "Stay In My Lonely Arms." Who knew? I can't say all my decisions were genius. LOL. Most of the time you wait forever then suddenly you're given 5 minutes to make a decision. I can't say it's much different now!
    I hope this is somewhat clear. I had to read it 3 times to understand it and I wrote it!

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    haha - thanks George! we can always count on you to get whatever you can out to us fans!

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    Thanks for the information George. I love "Love the one you're with" on the CD version of New ways. I think it suits the album better than "Is there a place".

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    I've mentioned before I don't know much about post- Ross Supremes but I enjoy reading threads like this that give me an insight to the group in this period..I looked up these duets albums in the discography included in the 40 th box set..[[ we Supremes fanatics like to have books and cd booklets at the ready to check facts)..my question is this - I see the albums all did much,much better on r & b charts than billboard..but did those charting positions actually translate to a volume of product actually sold ?...also did the ladies or the tops actually have a say in 3 releases or did they have no input into this ? I'm thinking after the 2nd release Jean, Mary or Levi could have expressed concern to Motown management that a third release could be a mistake ?

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    my understanding is that the sales with an R&B top ten hit versus a Pop top ten hit are vastly different. i'm trying to remember what some of the fans here have stated over the years. My memory might be fading but i thought BayouMotownMan stated something like 2 or 3X the record sales. but don't quote me on that

    and it's even more of a difference for the Dance/Disco charts that came out in the mid 70s. a Top Ten on that didn't sell nearly the amount that a Top Ten R&B hit would.

    as for release selection and schedule, the groups essentially had little to no involvement in that. Even Diana had very little say. I think Stevie was able to get that authority into his contracts. But marvin didn't. the whole "In Our Lifetime" or whatever that album was called that was his final release for the company

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