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  1. #51
    I agree about the look of the Supremes late in the decade. I hated all the bouffant wigs, the overdone makeup and all that. We 70's kids wanted a more modern look that singers like Chaka, Natalie Cole, Patti and others had. When the Supremes started they had a sexy, naturally pretty look with dresses that didn't hide their curves. What happened? I know some fans love the glitz but I didn't. I think during the Mary, Scherrie Susaye years they were getting on track with the 70's but it was too late

  2. #52
    They started wearing their own hair once Scherrie came aboard
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    I agree about the look of the Supremes late in the decade. I hated all the bouffant wigs, the overdone makeup and all that. We 70's kids wanted a more modern look that singers like Chaka, Natalie Cole, Patti and others had. When the Supremes started they had a sexy, naturally pretty look with dresses that didn't hide their curves. What happened? I know some fans love the glitz but I didn't. I think during the Mary, Scherrie Susaye years they were getting on track with the 70's but it was too late

  3. #53
    That I can agree with
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    To be fair I felt that way about the group in most of 1969. The Supremes in general were fizzling out even before Jean came in.

  4. #54
    Like I mentioned in the past, the girls were caught in a catch 22. People complained when they wore the gowns and people complained when they didn’t. It seems like for some no matter what they did someone will let it be known. And if we’re gonna be truthful they were doomed the moment they became Diana Ross and the Supremes.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    oh, I agree. I wasnít clear. Iím fine with the gowns - as gowns - but not as dance costumes. Mary wore it well. There are a few TV appearances where I just saw DOOM written all over them. This is one. Tom Jones was the first. How could THE SUPREMES have sunk to this? I remember when they were on Tom Jones I thought ďitís over for them, I love the records but this is so terrible.Ē I couldnít believe my eyes.
    oh see i think the Tom Jones show was a great one! those green fringe pantsuits were awesome! the medley was a little hokey but Jean and her gospel ad libs were great.

    now the choreography for Stoned Love on TJ was jacked up lol. after that complex and energetic opening medley, i think they could have kept it more simple for SL.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Like I mentioned in the past, the girls were caught in a catch 22. People complained when they wore the gowns and people complained when they didn’t. It seems like for some no matter what they did someone will let it be known. And if we’re gonna be truthful they were doomed the moment they became Diana Ross and the Supremes.
    agreed! MJL tried to tone down the Vegas glitz look a bit with some simpler but still attractive outfits. but on here everyone has heart palpitations over those outfits lol

  7. #57
    I could tell! I thought Scherrie was hot.

  8. #58
    There's a clip of "Bad Weather" from BOB HOPE. The Supremes have on these great white evening gowns; Jean and Lynda looked FANTASTIC. Mary is wearing her real hair and it looks so out of place. Maybe wigs should have been worn with the gowns, and "naturals" for the more "street" type costumes.

  9. #59
    Mary’s hair wasn’t out of place it was relaxed and styled simple
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    There's a clip of "Bad Weather" from BOB HOPE. The Supremes have on these great white evening gowns; Jean and Lynda looked FANTASTIC. Mary is wearing her real hair and it looks so out of place. Maybe wigs should have been worn with the gowns, and "naturals" for the more "street" type costumes.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    There's a clip of "Bad Weather" from BOB HOPE. The Supremes have on these great white evening gowns; Jean and Lynda looked FANTASTIC. Mary is wearing her real hair and it looks so out of place. Maybe wigs should have been worn with the gowns, and "naturals" for the more "street" type costumes.
    In the age of Black Is Beautiful? That was the point. A Black woman could be natural and glam all at once.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    In the age of Black Is Beautiful? That was the point. A Black woman could be natural and glam all at once.
    Jean and Lynda must have missed the memo.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Maryís hair wasnít out of place it was relaxed and styled simple
    Next to Jean and Lynda, her hair was a mess.

  13. #63
    No it wasn’t
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Next to Jean and Lynda, her hair was a mess.

  14. #64
    Can someone please post this video. There is a habit discussing songs or performances- but no videos or at least a link to what is being discussed. Ok, off my soapbox now 🙂

  15. #65
    Here it is
    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    Can someone please post this video. There is a habit discussing songs or performances- but no videos or at least a link to what is being discussed. Ok, off my soapbox now 

  16. #66

  17. #67
    Thank you blackguy69.

  18. #68
    I like how the group looks in this Bad Weather video, it was a step in the right direction. These dresses were form-fitting, as it should be!!

  19. #69
    i really like these gowns too and they look sensational in them. but i'm not sure if they were fashion forward. they got these in late 71 with the MJC lineup. stunning and gorgeous but at this time the girls needed to be hip and cutting edge. these look like DRATS gowns to me.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    To be fair I felt that way about the group in most of 1969. The Supremes in general were fizzling out even before Jean came in.

    They certainly were slipping, but, they still filled arenas, were in demand globally and could name any show they wanted to be on. They were fizzling out with class, style and the highest possible level of achievement for the presentation they had chosen. JMC looked like fools on Tom Jones in those hideous gold pantsuits matched with hairstyles that were inappropriate for the look, the awful choreography for Stoned Love, the hot mess of irs time to break down on flip - Such a great track and absolutely no focus on it at all visually look with ridiculous choreography and glam pantsuit with distracting fringe flying around. That song is a mood piece and They performed it like it was thereís no business like show business. They had a brilliant singer in Jean Terrell and sheís barely had a close up in order to possibly get the point of the song across while they were doing side steps with kicks. My heart was breaking watching them implode. It never crossed my mind on January 14, 1970 that I would be cringing at them on television.

    DR&TS had an ineffective Performance on Ed Sullivan with no matter what sign you are, I doubt very much it sold any records at all from that performance. It was so much movement you couldnít possibly pay attention to that busy, wordy song. But they didnít look like rubes. The proof us in the pudding as they went downhill rather quickly while boasting 4 hits in their first 18 months, but albums and tickets were slipping badly. I wish Suzanne de Passe wasnít working so hard on the Jackson 5 at the time because I think someone with vision and style couldíve saved this group. Motown was wise to get rid of Frank wilson, although I donít know that smoky was the answer but at least they were trying to change things musically. I just donít think that was the problem, I think it was the visual presentation isnít very much interest in the group as a group except for the diehard fans and they were dropping off steadily.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Like I mentioned in the past, the girls were caught in a catch 22. People complained when they wore the gowns and people complained when they didn’t. It seems like for some no matter what they did someone will let it be known. And if we’re gonna be truthful they were doomed the moment they became Diana Ross and the Supremes.
    You wouldn’t say that if you saw them at the Kiehl hockey Arena in late 67 and the spring of 69. They had to add a second show in 1969 they did it at 2 PM. It’s the only time I ever heard I’m living in shame live. I know they had slipped in some smaller markets, I don’t think they were doomed plus they still sold a lot of records considering they didn’t have HDH.
    Last edited by TheMotownManiac; 04-26-2021 at 02:32 AM.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    oh see i think the Tom Jones show was a great one! those green fringe pantsuits were awesome! the medley was a little hokey but Jean and her gospel ad libs were great.

    now the choreography for Stoned Love on TJ was jacked up lol. after that complex and energetic opening medley, i think they could have kept it more simple for SL.
    I love them also! And they are absolutely perfect for that fast-paced medley - which Jean excels on. That’s what drives me crazy - they had the talent, but They needed to bring in new fans because of the number of fans they lost from diana ross’ departure- and they just didn’t. This green fringe medley, as wonderful as it was, was not going to do anything to bring them new young fans in the kinds of numbers they needed. I know I rag on them a lot, but it’s just like when I first heard the I love you album - There may be a little bit of it that I like but this is not gonna get you anywhere. I never wanted to lose the Supremes in my heart or in the public, I held onto the bitter end because I was fortunate enough to be able to hang with the girls sometimes and that changed everything. My friends were not happy when I showed up at parties with Floy Joy. They didn’t want my diana ross albums either, but it didn’t matter because she was above all of that especially after lady sings the blues - but even before. After she got in the radio, she was doing great business for first gig in New York broke box office records at the Waldorf. The Supremes had something to prove evidently and they couldn’t prove it.
    Last edited by TheMotownManiac; 04-26-2021 at 09:22 PM.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    There's a clip of "Bad Weather" from BOB HOPE. The Supremes have on these great white evening gowns; Jean and Lynda looked FANTASTIC. Mary is wearing her real hair and it looks so out of place. Maybe wigs should have been worn with the gowns, and "naturals" for the more "street" type costumes.
    I said I thousand times that’s what’s great about this forum! I love Mary’s hair. Jean looks great and is working the song - albeit to a Kate Smith audience LOL - If ever there was a demographic that was not going to buy this record, it is this demographic!

    long live varied opinions!!

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i really like these gowns too and they look sensational in them. but i'm not sure if they were fashion forward. they got these in late 71 with the MJC lineup. stunning and gorgeous but at this time the girls needed to be hip and cutting edge. these look like DRATS gowns to me.
    it was too late by now. They needed a total reinvention like Patty Labelle, and that only last in a little while.

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    They certainly were slipping, but, they still filled arenas, were in demand globally and could name any show they wanted to be on. They were fizzling out with class, style and the highest possible level of achievement for the presentation they had chosen. JMC looked like fools on Tom Jones in those hideous gold pantsuits matched with hairstyles that were inappropriate for the look, the awful choreography for Stoned Love, the hot mess of irs time to break down on flip - Such a great track and absolutely no focus on it at all visually look with ridiculous choreography and glam pantsuit with distracting fringe flying around. That song is a mood piece and They performed it like it was there’s no business like show business. They had a brilliant singer in Jean Terrell and she’s barely had a close up in order to possibly get the point of the song across while they were doing side steps with kicks. My heart was breaking watching them implode. It never crossed my mind on January 14, 1970 that I would be cringing at them on television.

    DR&TS had an ineffective Performance on Ed Sullivan with no matter what sign you are, I doubt very much it sold any records at all from that performance. It was so much movement you couldn’t possibly pay attention to that busy, wordy song. But they didn’t look like rubes. The proof us in the pudding as they went downhill rather quickly while boasting 4 hits in their first 18 months, but albums and tickets were slipping badly. I wish Suzanne de Passe wasn’t working so hard on the Jackson 5 at the time because I think someone with vision and style could’ve saved this group. Motown was wise to get rid of Frank wilson, although I don’t know that smoky was the answer but at least they were trying to change things musically. I just don’t think that was the problem, I think it was the visual presentation isn’t very much interest in the group as a group except for the diehard fans and they were dropping off steadily.
    i agree that they were trying too hard with the choreography. I've always found the Time To Break Down on Flip to be disappointing. completely agree with your assessment. Not every word in the song needs a hand motion or step. it is ok to simply stand and sing.

    Maybe instead of drilling all of that dumb choreography, they should have spent more time training Jean to be more dynamic on stage. I get it to some degree that M and C would want to change the approach for their tv appearances. in the 60s M and F and then M and C only got occasional shots. but that's frankly how you SHOULD do a group performance. you need to have more time on the lead singer so that people know where to look. too many wide or group shots just has your eyes wandering all around.

    the group on Sullivan for Ladder was great. M and C had their little lines and got close ups for that. but there was plenty of Jean time and you knew she was singing the lead.

    For SL on Tom Jones or the flip clips, it's too random and all over the place.

  26. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i agree that they were trying too hard with the choreography. I've always found the Time To Break Down on Flip to be disappointing. completely agree with your assessment. Not every word in the song needs a hand motion or step. it is ok to simply stand and sing.

    Maybe instead of drilling all of that dumb choreography, they should have spent more time training Jean to be more dynamic on stage. I get it to some degree that M and C would want to change the approach for their tv appearances. in the 60s M and F and then M and C only got occasional shots. but that's frankly how you SHOULD do a group performance. you need to have more time on the lead singer so that people know where to look. too many wide or group shots just has your eyes wandering all around.

    the group on Sullivan for Ladder was great. M and C had their little lines and got close ups for that. but there was plenty of Jean time and you knew she was singing the lead.

    For SL on Tom Jones or the flip clips, it's too random and all over the place.
    The Supremes were never really known for their choreography anyway. Their early hits like Baby Love and Come See About Me had choreography but they didn't do much with the hits from '65 and on.

  27. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i agree that they were trying too hard with the choreography. I've always found the Time To Break Down on Flip to be disappointing. completely agree with your assessment. Not every word in the song needs a hand motion or step. it is ok to simply stand and sing.

    Maybe instead of drilling all of that dumb choreography, they should have spent more time training Jean to be more dynamic on stage. I get it to some degree that M and C would want to change the approach for their tv appearances. in the 60s M and F and then M and C only got occasional shots. but that's frankly how you SHOULD do a group performance. you need to have more time on the lead singer so that people know where to look. too many wide or group shots just has your eyes wandering all around.

    the group on Sullivan for Ladder was great. M and C had their little lines and got close ups for that. but there was plenty of Jean time and you knew she was singing the lead.

    For SL on Tom Jones or the flip clips, it's too random and all over the place.
    I know I could be boiled in oil for this, but Iím not a fan of being ďfairĒ to non-lead group members. Cindy is the sweetest thing, but her voice, to me, is a nothing and I would never have featured her even on one line while the group was getting off its feet. I donít know if Iíd give Mary many - if any - unless she really had the best sound for the line. Closeups of the other two are great when the lead isnít singing, but, again, Jean was the centerpiece of the song. Ed Sullivan was great for camera blocking, they featured the girls appropriately- especially on Irving Berlin etc. I believe Motown or Sullivan was right with their focus on DR&TS, and JMC on Sullivan.

    To me, selling the group was paramount. I think they may have fared better, perhaps not much, but better with more attention on the leads - OMG especially with Scherrie. Heís My Man here is like a Mary solo with her in the center flailing her arms like sheís trying to get chosen on Letís Make A Deal. And, if I was managing the group, Iíd have had Maryís heels an inch or two shorter to help the group visually. I just wanted them to make it so much. I was not prepared for a life without The Supremes. Jean was developing beautifully- IGIMTM on Mike Douglas is exquisite- I think my fave TV appearance of hers. But sheís great on Brother Loveís.

  28. #78
    i think even during the DMF and DMC they could have provided a bit more of a balance. I enjoy some of the incidental pieces incorporating more vocals from M, F and C. As I said with the JMC debut on Sullivan, giving M and C their lines and all was a wonderful move. it did help broaden the appeal of the group but certainly didn't pull any real attention away from Jean and her amazing vocals.

    DMF did some more complex choreography like the Hullabaloo clip for Back In My Arms. but the intricate moves were in the intro. a fabulous way to show the charm and appeal of the group but then after that cute intro, they mostly stand and sing. do some light arm movements and sways. same with clips like Symphony, Happening, You keep me hanging on and more. none of it took any of the attention away from the singing

    now if we fast forward to MSS, when they did the High Energy videos, i think the complex full choreography they did worked really well. they're of course lip syncing so you don't have to worry about being breathless and all. but then when the girls were live and doing Let Yourself Go, they unfortunately kept nearly all of the choreography and they were always worn out and gasping for air at the end of the song. So they should have had a far pruned down version for when they were live.

  29. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i think even during the DMF and DMC they could have provided a bit more of a balance. I enjoy some of the incidental pieces incorporating more vocals from M, F and C. As I said with the JMC debut on Sullivan, giving M and C their lines and all was a wonderful move. it did help broaden the appeal of the group but certainly didn't pull any real attention away from Jean and her amazing vocals.

    DMF did some more complex choreography like the Hullabaloo clip for Back In My Arms. but the intricate moves were in the intro. a fabulous way to show the charm and appeal of the group but then after that cute intro, they mostly stand and sing. do some light arm movements and sways. same with clips like Symphony, Happening, You keep me hanging on and more. none of it took any of the attention away from the singing

    now if we fast forward to MSS, when they did the High Energy videos, i think the complex full choreography they did worked really well. they're of course lip syncing so you don't have to worry about being breathless and all. but then when the girls were live and doing Let Yourself Go, they unfortunately kept nearly all of the choreography and they were always worn out and gasping for air at the end of the song. So they should have had a far pruned down version for when they were live.
    MSS were a hot mess live. They were literally all over the place and seemingly competing against each other on stage. It was not a pretty sight seeing Mary trying but failing to keep up with Scherrie, whilst Scherrie was trying but failing to keep up with Susaye who just seemed to be doing her own thing.
    After witnessing the MSC line up and vowing never to see the ladies again, i broke my own vow and witnessed the car crash that was MSS live. They sounded fine on record, but their live shows were disastrous. I was relieved when they called it a day and saved us from further pain. Such a shame.

  30. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    MSS were a hot mess live. They were literally all over the place and seemingly competing against each other on stage. It was not a pretty sight seeing Mary trying but failing to keep up with Scherrie, whilst Scherrie was trying but failing to keep up with Susaye who just seemed to be doing her own thing.
    After witnessing the MSC line up and vowing never to see the ladies again, i broke my own vow and witnessed the car crash that was MSS live. They sounded fine on record, but their live shows were disastrous. I was relieved when they called it a day and saved us from further pain. Such a shame.
    agreed. i would say pretty much every single thing of the live shows needed to be throw out. they needed to greatly reduce the choreography and running around all over the stage, shift more of the lead vocal emphasis onto Scherrie, ditch Dream medley and most of the MOR junk. And honestly they needed to reduce the amount of 3-part singing. there is so much of it in the bootlegs of the live shows i have that it's tiring. there's nothing wrong with have 1 person singing lead and then the other two accompanying with backing vocals. then when you do incorporate the 3 part harmony, it's an amazing effect. but overkill ruins it

    and the ad libs needed to be WAY toned down. there should be specific areas in songs where someone might have an opportunity to go slightly off script. but no - no one needs to just be running off doing whatever, whenever

  31. #81
    another example of a GREAT tv appearance of MJC was the Andy Williams show. the choreography was simple but elegant and effective. M and C had occasional spotlight moments that showed what a wonderful group effort they were doing.

  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I said I thousand times that’s what’s great about this forum! I love Mary’s hair. Jean looks great and is working the song - albeit to a Kate Smith audience LOL - If ever there was a demographic that was not going to buy this record, it is this demographic!

    long live varied opinions!!
    Amen to you! I respect your opinion, and appreciate an "agree to disagree" response to my post, rather than saying I am wrong, my words or invalid, or "no it's not". We all see things through different eyes. And in my eyes, Mary's hair was a HOT MESS in the "Bad Weather" clip".

  33. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    another example of a GREAT tv appearance of MJC was the Andy Williams show. the choreography was simple but elegant and effective. M and C had occasional spotlight moments that showed what a wonderful group effort they were doing.
    That's really a divine clip; probably the best JMC clip, next to the Sullivan debut.

  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    MSS were a hot mess live. They were literally all over the place and seemingly competing against each other on stage. It was not a pretty sight seeing Mary trying but failing to keep up with Scherrie, whilst Scherrie was trying but failing to keep up with Susaye who just seemed to be doing her own thing.
    After witnessing the MSC line up and vowing never to see the ladies again, i broke my own vow and witnessed the car crash that was MSS live. They sounded fine on record, but their live shows were disastrous. I was relieved when they called it a day and saved us from further pain. Such a shame.
    There's a clip of MSS on Merv or Mike Douglas; they're singing "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" in the red "Sullivan" pantsuits. Mary looks like she's an amazon next to Scherrie and Susaye. The entire performance is a bunch of hooting and hollering; let's face it, both S and S could sing circles around M, as evidenced in this clip. Towards the end, it seems like a competition between S and S who can make the most runs, and who can screech the loudest. Mary resigns herself to singing "do the walkin'" over and over. On record? Fantastic. Live? Yikes.

  35. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    There's a clip of MSS on Merv or Mike Douglas; they're singing "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking" in the red "Sullivan" pantsuits. Mary looks like she's an amazon next to Scherrie and Susaye. The entire performance is a bunch of hooting and hollering; let's face it, both S and S could sing circles around M, as evidenced in this clip. Towards the end, it seems like a competition between S and S who can make the most runs, and who can screech the loudest. Mary resigns herself to singing "do the walkin'" over and over. On record? Fantastic. Live? Yikes.
    not only was Mary much taller than S or S but for this clip she's also on the largest of the 3 pedestal boxes. so they simply amplified things

    there are some of the outfits where the height difference isn't quite as glaring. the blue fringe udo gowns and their Jan 77 appearance on soul train.

    but the tuxes they wore made Mary look like she was 10 feet taller than them. the jesus robes simply swamped Susaye in a sea of fabric.

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