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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I cracked up at your #1 reason.

    Even Flo's vocal on the album version of "Makes No Difference Now" shows that she was perfectly capable of leading a ballad.

    I think Mary's early 60s voice lent itself so well to those "I'm a young girl in love but now I've lost my guy" type of ballads like "The Tears" and "Baby Don't Go". There's a pleading in her voice that really wraps itself around these type of tunes. As the 60s progressed, like 1965 and on, she developed this jazzy alto that was so perfect for a silky smooth slow cut.

    I don't think Flo could ever sound as "girl in love" as Mary did, so her singing "The Tears" or "Baby Don't Go", I don't know if it would've worked. Maybe it would. I don't know. But she definitely could've handled the more bluesy and/or soulful ballads, maybe like some of the stuff Martha and the Vs were recording. The lady really did have a voice drenched in soul.

    Diana's interpretation skills allowed her to use her voice in so many different ways to fit so many different songs. She was the one who really could handle just about anything. Not to say that she didn't have weaknesses. She did. There are definitely times when I listen to the group's work and think a particular song didn't play to Diana's strengths, but that same song would've been perfect for either Flo or Mary.
    a month or so ago, there was a post going on around Whisper You Love Me. and i think all 3 girls could have done a lovely and interesting lead on that. Diana's is of course wonderful. and we can all hear Mary doing it. But imagine Flo doing it, using mostly the style from Breathtaking Guy. maybe with a little touch of soul here and there but not too much. don't want to over sing

  2. #102
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    Just popping in because I read Mary and the tears/ baby don't go etc but I recently really started to like "pretty baby" and think Mary had such a great voice during them early years. Sorry completely of topic I know lol.

  3. #103
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    Benross I like how you noticed that it's the only live recording of Reflections where she got the lyrics right lol. Never even noticed it. Now I'll have to dig out all the live versions and listen again. it's such a great song.

    Yes the Greatest hits would have sold good anyway without "the Happening" on it. Only problem might have been that the Happening was a year old by the time Reflections LP was released in '68. I think the Happening could have been included if the LP was released before the end of '67. The inclusion of 2 big hits surely would have helped to boost the album sales.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    a month or so ago, there was a post going on around Whisper You Love Me. and i think all 3 girls could have done a lovely and interesting lead on that. Diana's is of course wonderful. and we can all hear Mary doing it. But imagine Flo doing it, using mostly the style from Breathtaking Guy. maybe with a little touch of soul here and there but not too much. don't want to over sing
    Maybe the version Chris Clark did would have suited Florence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPQn1AuPWsg

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Keep in mind the public's perception of the groups. I think the public probably already considered the Miracles "Smokey Robinson and...". Smokey was a well known songwriter and producer. He even had his name and photo on someone else's album [[the Tempts) two years before the name change. Although history is occasionally re-written around here, pretty much up until Flo's exit, the public and the industry considered the Supremes a true group, with three identifiable singers. I wasn't around back then, but it's hard for me to believe that anyone outside of some of the most diehard fans would've batted an eye if Pete or Ronnie or Bobby were replaced. Renaming a true group had to come with some backlash. Of course all is forgiven when the music is great, as proven when the Supremes teamed up with the Tempts, as well as the release of "Love Child" and "Someday".




    I have a differing view:
    It was my experience that
    ”the public” didn’t think any different between the two groups. Diana did 99% of the leads, only one regular studio album had a non-ross lead on it, and that was the very weak, in my opinion, come and get these memories. I didn’t know one person that liked it I just about everyone hated it. I don’t think the public ever thought about the Supremes being a “true group”or anything like that at all. I don’t think people even went there. It’s not like the Beatles or the stones or even the Beach boys or the mamas and the Papas…… The Supremes were a lead singer with two background singers and they were always that way from the time they hit. Most people never heard mary or Florence on anything but a few words here and there - if they were paying attention that closely, which I don’t think they were. I didn’t know many who were. I didn’t know one person that dissected whether or not this was a true group or a lead and a background group or anything like that they were just the Supremes that was just all there was to it. I don’t think anybody went the for and I don’t think many gave much of a damn about Smokey Robinson and the miracles either. They just played the records and that was that.

    no one I knew thought negatively about the name change and I never experienced any backlash or heard of anything until decades later. However, in the 90’s, I did meet a fan who had a catatonic fit because diana ross’ name appeared separately from the Supremes on the TCB titles.
    I didn’t witness any industry backlash and I don’t believe there was any. I can think of no examples I can provide proof that there wasn’t: the first single, reflections, radio was on it like a duck on a June bug and it had adds similar to the previous four #1’s. On the black chart, it far out performed its predecessor before thename change. I don’t think anyone gave a damn one way or another - fans or industry. They were a mega-group that moved a ton of product - “ the industry” was not emotionally invested at all in the group, or any group for that matter beyond what they sold because that’s what the industry cared about: sales. I never read one thing in the trades that was even slightly questionable about the name change The first single was a smash, the first album was the biggest Album Motown ever had for years…There was no apparent hesitation from radio from its chart performance at all. Ditto in my opinion, the weak follow up in an out of love. Of course when it Failed to perform like the previous singles, radio grew soft on it but that is normal for every record. A month after the name change, the greatest hits album came out and sold like crazy and was in just about everyone’s home that I knew and I never heard one casual fan say anything whatsoever about the name change.

    All this scrutiny happened after Dreamgirl when we were given a villainess. There WAS discussion among the supremes nutcase fans [[of which I was one) but there certainly was no backlash. Everybody just kept buying everything. Casual fans stopped buying the albums eventually because they weren’t
    enjoying the newer ones or a lot of the singles as the casual fan, even the mid-level fans, became fans because of the HDH Ross-led classic records that were coming out every 2 1/2 to 3 months. Those same people had absolutely no interest in some things you never get used to or forever came today or the composer all the albums that contained them.
    I was devastated when Flo disappeared and the non-Flo showed up everywhere on TV like she belonged or something. I didn’t really accept that Flo was gone until the reflections album came out And Cindy’s name appeared in the liner notes as it always been there. The die hards had lots to say initially and most of it wasn’t good, but the general public didn’t even notice. The general public didn’t know any of their names until the name change. I don’t even think their names were mentioned on a gogo or HDH. The public learned who diana ross was only after the name change.

    now there was plenty of backlash when Diana left the group and some of it continues 51 years later. The name change? Nothing basically.

    Oh I forgot, that same TCB friend was fit to be tied because the greatest hits album featured the name change even though all of the songs on it were recorded as just The Supremes. He likes everything to be tidy and “correct “and this did not fit that description at all. I doubt very much, that to this very day, he will wear white shoes after Labor Day because “ you aren’t supposed to.”
    Last edited by TheMotownManiac; 04-14-2021 at 03:57 AM.

  6. #106
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    Well written but I disagree on certain points to quote oprah " I had difficulty accepting Cindy myself.."..to quote our forum's late marv when I once wrote that diana was captivating on the sullivan " the happening " performance he replied " I wasn't watching her my eyes were on Mary..".....sadly we don't have the full videography of Supremes tv interviews but Mary and flo did speak..they had their own fans..they were school girl friends who represented the american dream..they were perceived by many fans as a unit..sisters..yes refections hit big but news spread slowly in that era but certainly the word on the streets of Detroit was flo had been done wrong plus the name change hdh exit and the more superglitz of the group did turn some people off.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    I would venture that Motown waited too long to release the album.

    It might have done better if they had released it in 1967, around the time of the title track or IN AND OUT OF LOVE. But they waited to release it until March 1968, and on the heels of a less-than-successful single, FOREVER CAME TODAY. Interest that the hit singles would have garnered was most likely gone and also, a lot of fans were probably still grabbing the GREATEST HITS collection.

    But #18 on the charts and a 28-week chart span isn't really all that bad, is it? If anything, it shows that the girls' automatic hit machine had slowed down.
    I totally agree but they couldn’t release it with the reflections single because Rogers and Hart was still on the chart, a gogo is still on the chart, HDH I think was still on, and a very expensive Greatest hits came out. I don’t know, but I imagine they didn’t expect greatest hits to be that Uber successful… Big? Certainly- Record stores in St. Louis had entire bins with nothing but the mono or the stereo. Plus, And I think this is big, I don’t think they expected the two singles following reflections to peak at number nine and number 28. They must have planned for them to be bigger As the previous 15 singles were all hits.

    And I agree that 28 weeks is pretty good for an album that was a disappointment to most. I was disappointed but there was lots I liked there. Still, the HDH magic was missing. The sound was more mature as was Ross’ voice. I venture to guess a lot of people that bought this album never bought another Supremes album. The Love Child album stalling at 14 is proof of that. The single was SO huge, it’s album should have done way better and charted longer.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post

    I have a differing view:
    It was my experience that
    ”the public” didn’t think any different between the two groups. Diana did 99% of the leads, only one regular studio album had a non-ross lead on it, and that was the very weak, in my opinion, come and get these memories. I didn’t know one person that liked it I just about everyone hated it. I don’t think the public ever thought about the Supremes being a “true group”or anything like that at all. I don’t think people even went there. It’s not like the Beatles or the stones or even the Beach boys or the mamas and the Papas…… The Supremes were a lead singer with two background singers and they were always that way from the time they hit.


    I cannot disagree with your memories regarding the Supremes. That was your experience. As I pointed out, I was not around during this time and can only go on the evidence of oral recollections and what has been written. Based off of the recollections of many others I am aware that the Supremes were a unit in the eyes of the world. Yes, they had a lead singer, but each Supreme was popular in her own right during the days of Flo. No, everyone did not know each of their names. The fact that you recall the people you knew didn't know Diana's name until the name change is more to my point of the Supremes being viewed as an equal unit. The fact that when Flo left it was "big" news and the press didn't yawn is also evidence that the individual members of the group mattered. Whether or not radio programmers had an issue with the name change [[which was the question that prompted the response you quote) is only something that can be speculated on. But IMO there is no denying that the Supremes were viewed in an entirely different way than the Miracles and Martha and the Vandellas. I did not become a Supreme fan until I was a teenager, but I knew the names of Flo and Mary, alongside Diana, because the adults in my family spoke of them. All these years later and I still have not heard a single person offline mention the names of Ronnie, Pete, Bobby, Roz, Annette or Betty. The Supremes were a true group in the eyes of the general public, not a singer who grabbed a couple of background vocalists for no good reason. My opinion stands.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomis View Post
    Well written but I disagree on certain points to quote oprah " I had difficulty accepting Cindy myself.."..to quote our forum's late marv when I once wrote that diana was captivating on the sullivan " the happening " performance he replied " I wasn't watching her my eyes were on Mary..".....sadly we don't have the full videography of Supremes tv interviews but Mary and flo did speak..they had their own fans..they were school girl friends who represented the american dream..they were perceived by many fans as a unit..sisters..yes refections hit big but news spread slowly in that era but certainly the word on the streets of Detroit was flo had been done wrong plus the name change hdh exit and the more superglitz of the group did turn some people off.
    Yeah, maybe it depended on where a person lived, etc, as to how they saw the group. Diana was the focal point from "Where" on because she sang lead. No different than any other group. Eventually Gordy planned Diana's ascension to DRATS, but right up until the end the Supremes were just that...the Supremes. That's why the idea of Gordy sort of flippantly getting rid of Flo as if she didn't matter is bunk. Gordy may not have been Flo's biggest fan, but he recognized her contribution to the group, including her popularity. Getting rid of any of them was always going to be a last resort. If at any point during 1964-1967 Diana Ross had walked across any stage, television or live, without Flo and Mary, there would have been a problem. She was not the group.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I cannot disagree with your memories regarding the Supremes. That was your experience. As I pointed out, I was not around during this time and can only go on the evidence of oral recollections and what has been written. Based off of the recollections of many others I am aware that the Supremes were a unit in the eyes of the world. Yes, they had a lead singer, but each Supreme was popular in her own right during the days of Flo. No, everyone did not know each of their names. The fact that you recall the people you knew didn't know Diana's name until the name change is more to my point of the Supremes being viewed as an equal unit. The fact that when Flo left it was "big" news and the press didn't yawn is also evidence that the individual members of the group mattered. Whether or not radio programmers had an issue with the name change [[which was the question that prompted the response you quote) is only something that can be speculated on. But IMO there is no denying that the Supremes were viewed in an entirely different way than the Miracles and Martha and the Vandellas. I did not become a Supreme fan until I was a teenager, but I knew the names of Flo and Mary, alongside Diana, because the adults in my family spoke of them. All these years later and I still have not heard a single person offline mention the names of Ronnie, Pete, Bobby, Roz, Annette or Betty. The Supremes were a true group in the eyes of the general public, not a singer who grabbed a couple of background vocalists for no good reason. My opinion stands.[/INDENT]
    Well said. Ask anyone in my family who their favorite Supreme was and they'll tell you Flo or Jean.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Yeah, maybe it depended on where a person lived, etc, as to how they saw the group. Diana was the focal point from "Where" on because she sang lead. No different than any other group. Eventually Gordy planned Diana's ascension to DRATS, but right up until the end the Supremes were just that...the Supremes. That's why the idea of Gordy sort of flippantly getting rid of Flo as if she didn't matter is bunk. Gordy may not have been Flo's biggest fan, but he recognized her contribution to the group, including her popularity. Getting rid of any of them was always going to be a last resort. If at any point during 1964-1967 Diana Ross had walked across any stage, television or live, without Flo and Mary, there would have been a problem. She was not the group.
    It was all strategically planned. I really think Gordy wanted Flo out much earlier but he saw that the public loved all three of them. I notice that the singles in 1966 really have Flo and Mary turned down and half of their backing vocals were muted on You Keep Me Hanging On. Its just too coincidental to me that they were turned down so low but once they became Diana Ross and The Supremes [[Andantes) the backgrounds were back to being loud and clear. I really think Gordy was trying to diminish them in little ways like that so that only Diana would matter and the other two could be expendable. Though they were still the Supremes up until Flo left, it was obvious the dynamics had changed by May '67 and it was also obvious where things were heading.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnjeb View Post
    Maybe the version Chris Clark did would have suited Florence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPQn1AuPWsg
    i agree - Chris' version has more sass to it which could have worked well for Flo. But i'd still like to hear her work on developing that short segment from Breathtaking Guy. could that line she sang and how beautifully she sang it be translated into a full song?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i agree - Chris' version has more sass to it which could have worked well for Flo. But i'd still like to hear her work on developing that short segment from Breathtaking Guy. could that line she sang and how beautifully she sang it be translated into a full song?
    The potential with Flo was definitely there. It just was never worked on. Have you heard the alternate version for It Makes No Difference Now? That's a style of Flo I'd like to have heard more of.

  14. #114
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    the record buying public typically focuses on the person singing the melody. your ear is trained to follow this element of the music. they're communicating the lyrics of the song. therefore they are often positioned forward of others so that tv cameras and all can follow them.

    it isn't because they're necessarily THE STAR. it would be odd to hear someone singing and not visually see them.

    When groups like the Stones or Beatles appeared on Sullivan, you typically had the cameras mostly on whomever was doing the lead. sure there are shots around to the others but they can't be for too long. otherwise you're watching someone drum or play keyboards but hearing a voice from someone and somewhere else

    another example is the Carpenters. Karen was originally the drummer of the group and that was her real passion. her real gift though was her beautiful voice and phrasing so she was also the lead singer. For a while they tried having her do her leads from the drum set but that just didn't work. on stage and on tv she needed to be standing out closer to the audience, closer to the tv cameras.

    But then they too suffered from the same old show biz problem of someone being singled out. Richard Carpenter was the mastermind behind the group - he arranged some of their hits, composed some of them, helped guide the style and direction of the group. yet he was usually stuck over to the side playing the keyboards

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    Diana, Mary and Florence had a combination of things most other female singing groups at the time did - strong, engaging personalities, charisma, innate style, singing talent.

    At their age, the 3 of them really were unique. their personalities came across the stage more strongly than typical performers their age. Of course the Artist Dev program honed this and polished it. But look at their TAMI performance and then look at similar groups from that time on Shindig or Hullabaloo. even the other motown acts.

    *there's a great clip of the Crystals doing Da Doo Ron Ron on Shindig and while La La has some facial expressions and is slightly engaging to watch doing her lead, the others are just sort of there. they smile and look pretty. but just sort of sing the song

    *MRATV doing Dancing in the Street on Sullivan. the girls look pretty, sound good. they smile nicely and all. But there's something in their expressions that's a bit lifeless.

    DMF just had some sort of spark. That's why IMO the group catapulted above the other singing groups of the time. combine that with the songwriting talent of HDH and you have perfection

    but the three girls still are individuals and while they all had a spark, Diana's was just a bigger and hotter spark

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    I love Diana's version of What the World Needs Now is Love on the Reflections album. It's the second best version of this song. The best version is Diana's version on her Christmas album. She was older and wiser about love and it shines through in that version. Diana Ross is magical. She is the voice of the heart. She is the voice of love.

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