What if Mary had recorded " holiday" ?

[djessie]

Madonna told "smash hits" magazine in 1987 she had written a song for bryan ferry but it never materialized..I assume pat leonard was involved in the track as ferry's album released at the time was co produced by him... madonna's lost demos and songs for others I find fascinating

Interesting, I had completely forgotten about this.

Madonna has given away some excellent tunes, but my favorite is probably "Just A Dream". Written for the Like A Prayer album, she gave it to her backup singer Donna De Lory when she released her debut solo album in the early 90s. Love that song, especially the lyrics.

It really is a shame that there has been so much tension between Madonna and Diana through the years. But when two very strong personalities come together...

[Ollie9]

Bluebrock, it's very interesting to know about these occurrences. Not surprising, for sure.

The fact is, I don't exactly why, but everything Diana was involved in those years seemed to be filled with turbulence: VH1 Divas, the whole Return To Love debacle, the heathrow controversy... how can someone get so much in trouble in so little time?

I wonder if Diana unconsciously didn't like all the trouble, the fist fights... the backstage stories are always the same: a very challenging diva who was always upset, angry or in disagreement with something around her. Too much trouble for just one person!!!!!

Who was it who once said to Diana “why are you always so angry”?. I certainly remember reading it.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Interesting how the subject turned from Mary possibly having a hit with Holiday to Diana's relationship with Madonna. I think Mary may have had a minor club dance hit with it but certainly not as big as Madonna's. Mary was able to see that it would probably not be her big ticket and then thought of course she could sing it by the time Madonna said yes. I just wonder what record company was releasing it since Mary had no contract, would it be Jellybean? Plus, it had also been turned down by Phyllis Hyman. In 1983, Mary had no contract. She would have been able to impart a feeling of fun for the lyric, maybe using her ows and honey ad libs. It wasn't until 1992 that she had a contract with CEO Records that folded on the day it was released. As for Diana, I remember reading someone asked her why she was always so angry, not sure if it was during her EST trainings or not. Still, her anger was probably related to childhood where she fought for attention, the Supremes were she fought to be the center of attention and from show business where as an African American woman she still had to fight even after success after success. Ross' need to be the center of attention may have been the reason why she is so close to her children but seemingly has self admitted problems attaining close friendships, something she has stated herself.

[RanRan79]

Interesting how the subject turned from Mary possibly having a hit with Holiday to Diana's relationship with Madonna. I think Mary may have had a minor club dance hit with it but certainly not as big as Madonna's. Mary was able to see that it would probably not be her big ticket and then thought of course she could sing it by the time Madonna said yes. I just wonder what record company was releasing it since Mary had no contract, would it be Jellybean? Plus, it had also been turned down by Phyllis Hyman. In 1983, Mary had no contract. She would have been able to impart a feeling of fun for the lyric, maybe using her ows and honey ad libs. It wasn't until 1992 that she had a contract with CEO Records that folded on the day it was released.

Topics around here go off topic all the time. It's just the flow of conversation. However, in a twist on what someone once replied to me when I brought up Mary in a Diana thread, "Back to Mary".

Mary's forte was not dance music, as proven with her disastrous solo debut. Jellybean, who is great at what he does, obviously heard something in Mary that he thought fit the song. He had to be convinced on some level that she could turn it into a hit. I don't think the club criteria was quite the same as the general radio listener/record buyer. Things like "identifiable sound" with the singer wasn't usually what drove a club hit. So as such, I think Mary probably would've ended up with a successful dance cut in that arena. Whether or not radio would've gotten behind it is something else entirely. 1983 was the point where people like Anita Baker and Sade were becoming big stars doing this r&b/smooth jazz/pop hybrid, which would've been perfect for Mary. If she had any chance at all of being a successful recording artist at this point in her life, that was the blueprint she should've been following.

[RanRan79]

As for Diana, I remember reading someone asked her why she was always so angry, not sure if it was during her EST trainings or not. Still, her anger was probably related to childhood where she fought for attention, the Supremes were she fought to be the center of attention and from show business where as an African American woman she still had to fight even after success after success. Ross' need to be the center of attention may have been the reason why she is so close to her children but seemingly has self admitted problems attaining close friendships, something she has stated herself.

All excellent points. I'd add that Diana was also an extremely stressed out person throughout much of her life. The early clashes, during the Primettes and early Supremes years, were par for the course of being a young girl. Diana may have found herself in the middle of more drama than Flo or Mary, but there's no doubt that Flo and Mary had her own share of girly drama about "who said what about who", boys, etc. But when the Supremes' rocketed up into history, Diana had a lot of load on her shoulders. She may have wanted to be as famous as she was, as did Flo and Mary, but also like Flo and Mary, she may not have been as prepared for it, mentally, as would have made the transition from "nobody" to "somebody" more smooth. Add to that the fact that she may have alienated a lot of people at the time. Let's be real, strong willed women, especially strong willed Black women, can be a hard pill to swallow for some folks, including other women. Had Diana been a male with the same shenanigans, would the people who grew so annoyed with [[maybe even outright disliked) her have responded to the guy in the same way?

Anyway, as the Supremes went along, Diana had Gordy on one side and he was not always the nicest person, even to her. He pushed her to the point of exhaustion. He could be cruel. Then on the other side, she had Flo and Mary, who had grown to resent her for a couple different reasons. That's a high stress environment, considering that these people spent the majority of their lives together during that time. Then DRATS ramps up the responsibilities, as well as the fact that this was Diana solo test run, it had to hang over her head. Then the solo career comes, and there's not just music to consider, but also a movie career. Her love life was in a crazy place, babies were coming. Everyday brought a new desire for more independence from Berry. She wanted to take control of her own career, and when she did, the stress had to be a ton.

Stressed out people are quite often some of the hardest people to deal with. And Diana strikes me as someone back in the day who often didn't have a chill button. Some people are able to navigate this stress successfully. I think Diana navigated it mostly fine from a financial standpoint, but didn't do it very well when maintaining some important things in the personal department. When you look at her today she appears so relaxed. I think most of those stresses have disappeared. She's being more sociable. Some fences are mended. And that's life, so they say.

[Bluebrock]

Who was it who once said to Diana “why are you always so angry”?. I certainly remember reading it.

I suspect many people have said that to her over the years, or at the very least wanted to say it.
Thankfully she has gradually mellowed with age. I think part of her problem was sheer exhaustion due to a very heavy workload. It is also very true to say she did not eat enough food for many years. Hunger brings anger! I know from personal experience how a lack of food can bring out the worst in us. It was only in the 80's that she was finally comfortable in her own body and she began to eat certain foods she would previously have avoided at all costs to maintain her figure.
Getting married in 1986 played an important role in her search for inner peace and contentment. We all know the marriage turned sour, but for a good few years she was blissfully happy, and it was lovely to see.

[Ollie9]

All excellent points. I'd add that Diana was also an extremely stressed out person throughout much of her life. The early clashes, during the Primettes and early Supremes years, were par for the course of being a young girl. Diana may have found herself in the middle of more drama than Flo or Mary, but there's no doubt that Flo and Mary had her own share of girly drama about "who said what about who", boys, etc. But when the Supremes' rocketed up into history, Diana had a lot of load on her shoulders. She may have wanted to be as famous as she was, as did Flo and Mary, but also like Flo and Mary, she may not have been as prepared for it, mentally, as would have made the transition from "nobody" to "somebody" more smooth. Add to that the fact that she may have alienated a lot of people at the time. Let's be real, strong willed women, especially strong willed Black women, can be a hard pill to swallow for some folks, including other women. Had Diana been a male with the same shenanigans, would the people who grew so annoyed with [[maybe even outright disliked) her have responded to the guy in the same way?

Anyway, as the Supremes went along, Diana had Gordy on one side and he was not always the nicest person, even to her. He pushed her to the point of exhaustion. He could be cruel. Then on the other side, she had Flo and Mary, who had grown to resent her for a couple different reasons. That's a high stress environment, considering that these people spent the majority of their lives together during that time. Then DRATS ramps up the responsibilities, as well as the fact that this was Diana solo test run, it had to hang over her head. Then the solo career comes, and there's not just music to consider, but also a movie career. Her love life was in a crazy place, babies were coming. Everyday brought a new desire for more independence from Berry. She wanted to take control of her own career, and when she did, the stress had to be a ton.

Stressed out people are quite often some of the hardest people to deal with. And Diana strikes me as someone back in the day who often didn't have a chill button. Some people are able to navigate this stress successfully. I think Diana navigated it mostly fine from a financial standpoint, but didn't do it very well when maintaining some important things in the personal department. When you look at her today she appears so relaxed. I think most of those stresses have disappeared. She's being more sociable. Some fences are mended. And that's life, so they say.

If you can’t chill out at 76 then when can you i say.....
I wish I could remember who made that comment about Diana always being angry. I know it wasn’t Madonna. I don’t think even she would be that brave.

[reese]

If you can’t chill out at 76 then when can you i say.....
I wish I could remember who made that comment about Diana always being angry. I know it wasn’t Madonna. I don’t think even she would be that brave.

In CALL HER MISS ROSS, an employee is said to have asked that question, not long before they were terminated. Allegedly, after her experience with est, Diana wanted her employees to take the classes as well but became frustrated with the questions some would pose after they become more assertive.

[RanRan79]

If you can’t chill out at 76 then when can you i say.....
I wish I could remember who made that comment about Diana always being angry. I know it wasn’t Madonna. I don’t think even she would be that brave.

It was Mary Wilson. Tee hee hee.

[RanRan79]

One more thing to add about Diana. She probably didn't trust many people either after a certain point in her life. Big stars always have to contend with the tons of people trying to get close, for one reason or another. There has to be a certain amount of paranoia. "Why do you want to be my friend?", I can imagine is something that ran through her mind whenever someone attempted to get close. Even with those who had been close to her at one time or another may have found themselves on the outs simply because she just didn't know who to trust.

Mary, on the other hand, apparently didn't care. She was a social butterfly. Any backstabbers in her camp were probably simply replaced with someone Mary felt was worthy. She apparently didn't meet any strangers and it's so good to see that in the wake of her passing just how many people were touched and moved by her. And not just her entertainment skills, but how they related to her as a person. It's been such a beautiful thing to see.

Btw, has anyone seen or heard from Smokey and Stevie about Mary? I don't recall statements issued.

[reese]

Btw, has anyone seen or heard from Smokey and Stevie about Mary? I don't recall statements issued.

Maybe a day or two after Mary's death, Smokey appeared on TMZ LIVE and spoke about Mary.

[BobbyC]

Sorry guys but I cannot stand Madonna. I remember standing next to her in an almost empty club in Manhattan before she got famous. She was nasty then even before she had a career. All of my show biz friends DESPISE her. Diana Ross had trouble being nice to people but I always sensed she did certain things because she was high strung, controlling, and wanted everything to be perfect--but she wasn't nasty for the sake of being nasty. Madonna is the exact opposite. She gets off on humiliating people who work for her. This is a fact. Madonna was a Labelle fan and used them as an inspiration to keep reinventing herself. When I explained that to "someone in the Labellle organization, the response I got was, and I do quote, "I'm surprised that woman would give credit to anybody." Did you all know that right before her 80's career resurgence, Patti was backstage at an awards show and Madonna literally stepped on her foot and didn't even say sorry? Patti said Madonna was rushing to get to "someone more important." The following year, Patti had a bunch of hits and played Live Aid, and Patti was at another awards with Madonna, and Madonna was suddenly interested and polite. Patti let her know that she had been incredibly rude to her the year before, and that just because she was a big star didn't mean she got a free pass to treat other people like garbage. Madonna was all apologies but Patti didn't think she was sincere. She is not a good person

[Ollie9]

In CALL HER MISS ROSS, an employee is said to have asked that question, not long before they were terminated. Allegedly, after her experience with est, Diana wanted her employees to take the classes as well but became frustrated with the questions some would pose after they become more assertive.

Many thanks indeed reese. In the words of Celine “Its all coming back to me”.
The quote about Diana becoming frustrated with employees who with help of EST became more assertive is perplexing but also quite funny really. As Bluebrock has mentioned before, a complicated lady.

[Boogiedown]

This is a good thread lots of good reading!
HOLIDAY was not the record waiting to reintroduce Mary Wilson, imo. It's a well-crafted dance tune , club stuff, but even with Madonna performing it, an artist who would later rarely miss the top 10 it peaked at number 16.
By Supremes standards ,that would've been seen as a miss for Mary Wilson. She needed something like Tina Turner's "what's love got to do with it", something that dominated radio as the song of the moment, to really be perceived as a comeback.... or an arrival.
Benitez was new and unproven,
Seems like using a fresh artist with his fresh sound made the most sense. Madonna was young and fresh.
I doubt Mary would've brought anything additional to the song that would've made it any stronger. I don't think there's anything more to the song to tap into.
The dance scene was starving for music at this time , a perfect avenue for new stars like Janet Jackson and Whitney and Madonna and culture club and Duran Duran etc.
Not so much a good career move for aging artists, with a couple of exceptions ...I guess you could say it worked for Aretha ...

[nomis]

Sorry guys but I cannot stand Madonna. I remember standing next to her in an almost empty club in Manhattan before she got famous. She was nasty then even before she had a career. All of my show biz friends DESPISE her. Diana Ross had trouble being nice to people but I always sensed she did certain things because she was high strung, controlling, and wanted everything to be perfect--but she wasn't nasty for the sake of being nasty. Madonna is the exact opposite. She gets off on humiliating people who work for her. This is a fact. Madonna was a Labelle fan and used them as an inspiration to keep reinventing herself. When I explained that to "someone in the Labellle organization, the response I got was, and I do quote, "I'm surprised that woman would give credit to anybody." Did you all know that right before her 80's career resurgence, Patti was backstage at an awards show and Madonna literally stepped on her foot and didn't even say sorry? Patti said Madonna was rushing to get to "someone more important." The following year, Patti had a bunch of hits and played Live Aid, and Patti was at another awards with Madonna, and Madonna was suddenly interested and polite. Patti let her know that she had been incredibly rude to her the year before, and that just because she was a big star didn't mean she got a free pass to treat other people like garbage. Madonna was all apologies but Patti didn't think she was sincere. She is not a good person

Madonna stepped on patti's foot as she was trying to introduce herself to Phil bailey

[Guy]

I remember seeing this photo in the NY Daily News. Always wondered if Nile had produced Diana for her 1985 release instead of the Gibbs. There were several albums he produced in 85-86 that had decent size success, Duran Duran's Notorious, Grace Jones' Inside Story and Sheena Easton's Do You. Would have loved to hear Diana do something like I'm Not Perfect [[But I'm Perfect for You) or Do You which went pop top 30 and probably would have gone higher with Diana singing it.

Thank you for reminding me of Sheena Easton's "Do You." That was a great album. I think that was another reason "Workin' Overtime" was such a shock. Nile was so gifted at creating soulful pop, it just doesn't make sense how WO came to be.

[Bluebrock]

Thank you for reminding me of Sheena Easton's "Do You." That was a great album. I think that was another reason "Workin' Overtime" was such a shock. Nile was so gifted at creating soulful pop, it just doesn't make sense how WO came to be.

As i have previously mentioned Nile had serious personal issues at the time.

[Guy]

Sorry guys but I cannot stand Madonna. I remember standing next to her in an almost empty club in Manhattan before she got famous. She was nasty then even before she had a career. All of my show biz friends DESPISE her. Diana Ross had trouble being nice to people but I always sensed she did certain things because she was high strung, controlling, and wanted everything to be perfect--but she wasn't nasty for the sake of being nasty. Madonna is the exact opposite. She gets off on humiliating people who work for her. This is a fact. Madonna was a Labelle fan and used them as an inspiration to keep reinventing herself. When I explained that to "someone in the Labellle organization, the response I got was, and I do quote, "I'm surprised that woman would give credit to anybody." Did you all know that right before her 80's career resurgence, Patti was backstage at an awards show and Madonna literally stepped on her foot and didn't even say sorry? Patti said Madonna was rushing to get to "someone more important." The following year, Patti had a bunch of hits and played Live Aid, and Patti was at another awards with Madonna, and Madonna was suddenly interested and polite. Patti let her know that she had been incredibly rude to her the year before, and that just because she was a big star didn't mean she got a free pass to treat other people like garbage. Madonna was all apologies but Patti didn't think she was sincere. She is not a good person

I think anyone who craves the type of attention we shower on our divas probably has a character deficit. My friend swears Patti Labelle is a 'b-word.' He worked with Whitney and Janet and many others. He says most were nice but his worst experiences were with Patti. I was surprised because she seems so nice and down-to-earth but he says its her 'act.' I remember Patti telling the Madonna story on Arsenio -- she never mentioned Madonna's name but I thought even sharing the story was uncharacteristically spiteful.

Anyway, I really enjoyed Madonna before she started with all the pretense - circa 1998. Still, she was really masterful at creating infectious pop music. I marvel at the magnitude of her global commercial success. No one even comes close to her sales or her longevity

[Ollie9]

Thank you for reminding me of Sheena Easton's "Do You." That was a great album. I think that was another reason "Workin' Overtime" was such a shock. Nile was so gifted at creating soulful pop, it just doesn't make sense how WO came to be.

From comments Diana has made about the kind of music she was listening to around the time of WO, i would say she was the one who pushed Nile in the direction the album went in.

[Nitro2015]

From comments Diana has made about the kind of music she was listening to around the time of WO, i would say she was the one who pushed Nile in the direction the album went in.

This House, Paradise and Workin' Overtime were great songs live. They had life and energy. The studio versions could be better produced, but I do like the album, maybe because I'm a younger fan and didn't expect Diana to be always the classy, middle-of-the-road singer of her solo years.

[BobbyC]

Patti is mostly a nice person. She does have an alter ego she calls Priscilla [[no idea how to spell that) and she is the one who could be a witch.I went to see Patti and the Bluebelles get inducted into the R &B Hall of Fame way back in maybe 1999. The girls sang a song and when it ended, Sarah Dash started talking to the audience, and Patti didn't like it. Patti basically told Sarah off in front of everybody, saying something to the effect of "See, This is why we didn't get along back in the day--you're always interrupting me." Sarah was in tears after the show, and said she had no idea why Patti acted that way. Much has been said over the years of how it was Patti and Nona who butted heads in the 70's and maybe that was true, but in the 90's it seemed more like Patti vs Sarah to me. Want to see what I'm talking about? look up the Patti Live from NYC video where she brings Nona and Sarah out to sing Release Yourself. Towards the end, Patti allows Nona to do a solo ad lib which she completely KILLED, and then Patti points to Sarah to do her ad lib. Sarah does hers and Patti gestures back to Nona to do a second ad lib, but Sarah just starts wailing again and Patti gestures to her to stop. Sarah went off script! Nona handled it very well, of course, and just sort of demurred. Anyway, I don't really understand how their relationship works, but they seem to forgive each other since they've reunited several times over the years. In 2008, when Labelle were doing their reunion tour in LA, in between songs one of Patti's fans yelled out, wanting Patti to sing Somewhere Over the Rainbow. Sarah stopped the fan in mid-sentence and said "No--this is a Labelle show, not a Patti solo show." Something like that. Patti was not happy and Nona looked like she just didn't want to get involved. These divas! I don't think Patti is malicious most of the time, but she has her moods just like anybody else but the difference is when she has her moments, they are often in front of hundreds of people.

[Guy]

Patti is mostly a nice person. She does have an alter ego she calls Priscilla [[no idea how to spell that) and she is the one who could be a witch.I went to see Patti and the Bluebelles get inducted into the R &B Hall of Fame way back in maybe 1999. The girls sang a song and when it ended, Sarah Dash started talking to the audience, and Patti didn't like it. Patti basically told Sarah off in front of everybody, saying something to the effect of "See, This is why we didn't get along back in the day--you're always interrupting me." Sarah was in tears after the show, and said she had no idea why Patti acted that way. Much has been said over the years of how it was Patti and Nona who butted heads in the 70's and maybe that was true, but in the 90's it seemed more like Patti vs Sarah to me. Want to see what I'm talking about? look up the Patti Live from NYC video where she brings Nona and Sarah out to sing Release Yourself. Towards the end, Patti allows Nona to do a solo ad lib which she completely KILLED, and then Patti points to Sarah to do her ad lib. Sarah does hers and Patti gestures back to Nona to do a second ad lib, but Sarah just starts wailing again and Patti gestures to her to stop. Sarah went off script! Nona handled it very well, of course, and just sort of demurred. Anyway, I don't really understand how their relationship works, but they seem to forgive each other since they've reunited several times over the years. In 2008, when Labelle were doing their reunion tour in LA, in between songs one of Patti's fans yelled out, wanting Patti to sing Somewhere Over the Rainbow. Sarah stopped the fan in mid-sentence and said "No--this is a Labelle show, not a Patti solo show." Something like that. Patti was not happy and Nona looked like she just didn't want to get involved. These divas! I don't think Patti is malicious most of the time, but she has her moods just like anybody else but the difference is when she has her moments, they are often in front of hundreds of people.

Thanks Bobby C. I can see how Patti and Sarah could have differences - like sisters -- she is only human. My friend doesn't 'know' her, he has only worked with her. He has long provided hospitality and event services for industry functions. His role is as liaison to talent. He has worked with many and said Patti was the worst and rudest. He says most of the other big divas -- Whitney, Janet, Dionne and Natalie Cole, among others -- were lovely to work with. But Patti [[and Luther) were not lovely. Surprising to me only because Patti seems like a nice person.

[Guy]

As i have previously mentioned Nile had serious personal issues at the time.

Yes, Bluebrock, I do recall you mentioning Nile's issues. I still wonder how WO made it past all quality control at Motown since everyone knew he [[and Ross) were capable of much better. Especially considering all the money and effort that went into advance promotion.

From comments Diana has made about the kind of music she was listening to around the time of WO, i would say she was the one who pushed Nile in the direction the album went in.

I think she hated the finished product. It didn't sound like anything that would be played on then-current radio. The songs were not bad, the arrangements and production were terrible. After the WO tour she never sang those songs again.

[BobbyC]

Hi Guy--my pleasure. I don't doubt your friend's experiences with Patti, and as far as Luther goes, he had a really bad rep back in the day. He was unquestionably a diva and pretty arrogant. I think sometimes famous people get fatigued by fame. It is difficult living in the spotlight 24/7. I mean they want to be loved and admired and looked up to, but when it actually happens, it can play tricks on the mind. The pressure is enormous. I have only seen Patti be evil a couple of times, but she just seemed stressed out IMO. One thing I will say is that Patti, in my experience, can say some horrendous things about her fellow performers [[who will remain nameless) in private, which kind of surprised me since she is always gracious and complimentary to these same celebs on TV. I recall one time Patti said "You never make your own light shine brighter by putting out somebody else's." I never forgot that. Back in the Chitlin circuit days, Patti would work theaters and clubs with certain people--she'd eat with them, play cards with them, shop with them. Once some of them rose above her, got famous before she did, they would totally snub her. That's the story behind Nona's song Can I Speak to you Before You Go to Hollywood--it's about those people they'd all experienced. All that being said, I like it when certain stars, who at their peak got big heads and were nasty in their younger days, got nicer in their later days. Diana Ross is a perfect example. Madonna is the opposite.

[Ollie9]

This House, Paradise and Workin' Overtime were great songs live. They had life and energy. The studio versions could be better produced, but I do like the album, maybe because I'm a younger fan and didn't expect Diana to be always the classy, middle-of-the-road singer of her solo years.

Other then her voice being pitched a little to high on a couple of the songs i have always really liked the album. It’s so nice to hear her singing with dedication and passion.
There is a lot of love on you tube for many of the songs from WO, but i can understand why fans who prefer something a little less radical might hate it.

[Ollie9]

I think she hated the finished product. It didn't sound like anything that would be played on then-current radio. The songs were not bad, the arrangements and production were terrible. After the WO tour she never sang those songs again.

I think the same could be said of a number of Diana Ross albums.
Unlike her first three offerings for RCA, at least she sounds connected to the material she is singing on WO. No phone-in performances i can detect.

[Guy]

I think the same could be said of a number of Diana Ross albums.
Unlike her first three offerings for RCA, at least she sounds connected to the material she is singing on WO. No phone-in performances i can detect.

True regarding some of her RCA output. If she sounded connected it was only because WO was helmed by a friend and trusted collaborator. The musical giant who produced -- IMO -- her greatest achievement as a recording artist: 1980's "diana." Nile created great music for other artists -- some would say lesser artists. Otherwise, WO was terrible by Ross standards and by Nile Rodgers standards. Bluebrock has offered some insight into why things went awry.

[Ollie9]

Otherwise, WO was terrible by Ross standards and by Nile Rodgers standards.

But that’s the point Guy, WO wasn’t terrible by Ross standards. The production on those first two RCA albums was s**t, not to mention the lazy vocals which sadly extended to ross 83. As previously mentioned, there is a lot of on-line love for the album which seems to gather momentum as the years go by.
The Wiz was once thought of as Diana’s worst movie but is now her most popular. I think the same will one day apply to Workin’ Overtime.

[RanRan79]

I think she hated the finished product. It didn't sound like anything that would be played on then-current radio. The songs were not bad, the arrangements and production were terrible. After the WO tour she never sang those songs again.

"Workin Overtime" was on the radio all the time back then. The album [[as well as the title cut) was not pop. It also was mainly made up of songs that weren't "Diana Ross". Remove Diana and insert an up and coming singer, or maybe one that already had two or three hits under her belt, and the album isn't so bad. I don't think anyone really wanted to hear Diana Ross this way. I maintain my often stated opinion that the public preferred Diana in a r&b/pop hybrid, or r&b with a little stank on it. She had been doing that since the 60s and people were accustomed to it. When she tried to cut straight pop records, they usually went nowhere. [["Theme From Mahogany" being an exception.) This might explain why "Chain Reaction" sank not once, but twice, despite being such a catchy tune. It was really a pop record. The WO tunes were a new kind of r&b, very much identified with a very young crowd. Diana seemed out of place cutting those songs. The title cut may have gotten the airplay it did on r&b radio because of the novelty of Diana doing this New Jack type sound. That, and I don't think the song, even with Diana, is a bad song. It's cool, but it's no "Aint No Mountain High Enough". Diana needed an album that said "The Queen Is Home Again". It should've been well suited to her age, contemporary enough for young folks to dig it, but throwback enough for those who grew up with her music to feel at home. WO was a bad move. Nile was apparently a bad move. Perhaps bringing in Masser, Ashford and Simpson, even Smokey to do some tunes on the return album would've made things different.

[RanRan79]

But that’s the point Guy, WO wasn’t terrible by Ross standards. The production on those first two RCA albums was s**t, not to mention the lazy vocals which sadly extended to ross 83. As previously mentioned, there is a lot of on-line love for the album which seems to gather momentum as the years go by.
The Wiz was once thought of as Diana’s worst movie but is now her most popular. I think the same will one day apply to Workin’ Overtime.

Agreed, regarding the vocals. She doesn't phone them in on WO. Some of those early RCA vocals was bullshit for a vocalist of Diana's caliber. She was much better than that.

[marybrewster]

Mary told this story many times over the years. But has anyone ever confirmed this with Jellybean? I just can't imagine Mary was in any position to turn down a recording, ever, but especially in 1983.

[Deepdishus2001]

Thank you for reminding me of Sheena Easton's "Do You." That was a great album. I think that was another reason "Workin' Overtime" was such a shock. Nile was so gifted at creating soulful pop, it just doesn't make sense how WO came to be.

It was/is a great album. Very talented lady. Plus it has a cover of Jimmy Mack which would have been a hoot to hear Diana sing. As stated earlier, I think her MCA debut The Lover in Me would have been the perfect album for Diana's MCA debut or Motown return. Production by LA & Babyface, Prince, Angela Winbush, Prince and Jellybean. Current sounding but still age appropriate. There are 2 gorgeous ballads, Follow My Rainbow and Fire & Rain which I can definitely hear Diana singing.

I actually like Workin' Overtime. I like/love all the second Motown stint albums. As other posters have said, the right key would have made a difference. I think The Bottom Line and Going Through the Motions were in the right key. And the songs were great live. I have the vinyl 12" that house a house mix in addition to the extended mix of WO that was pretty good. I still maintain if the producers name was switched to Teddy Riley or LA & Babyface, the album would have been a success, not a smash hit but a decent size success.

As for whether a not someone is a good person, it doesn't stop me from liking their music. I try to separate the art from the artist. Don't care what Patti Labelle thinks about Madonna, Madonna about Diana, Diana about Madonna, etc. My three favorites are Diana, Madonna & Barbra. The three women who probably get crapped on more than anyone else in the business and that are probably the toughest. LOL I love their music. I also like Madonna because she doesn't hide her toughness, b-ness or prickliness for the camera. It is pretty much out there. I kind of appreciate the lack of warm and fuzzy if that make sense. T

[RanRan79]

Mary told this story many times over the years. But has anyone ever confirmed this with Jellybean? I just can't imagine Mary was in any position to turn down a recording, ever, but especially in 1983.

Mary wasn't scrubbing floors for a living. It wasn't like she had to take anything that came her way. I think more than anything Mary didn't like what she heard and thus turned it down. Also I think Jellybean was a newbie. Mary may have hoped for the attention of someone with more recognition.

In all the years she's told the story, I assume Jellybean has had ample time to set the record straight. The fact that he hasn't told an opposite story suggests Mary's version is legit.

[RanRan79]

I still maintain if the producers name was switched to Teddy Riley or LA & Babyface, the album would have been a success, not a smash hit but a decent size success.

I don't think Teddy Riley being attached would've made any difference, except I probably would've liked his productions a million times better than what Nile did on the album. A Teddy produced album would've probably still put Diana in a space where the public felt she didn't belong.

Babyface, on the other hand, would've been great. He had the ability to bring Diana into the late 80s, turn of the 90s, and yet keep it true to who she was.

[Deepdishus2001]

I don't think Teddy Riley being attached would've made any difference, except I probably would've liked his productions a million times better than what Nile did on the album. A Teddy produced album would've probably still put Diana in a space where the public felt she didn't belong.

Babyface, on the other hand, would've been great. He had the ability to bring Diana into the late 80s, turn of the 90s, and yet keep it true to who she was.

I understand. What I meant was the album as is unchanged with Teddy Riley’s name on it would have resulted in a better selling record. If you are going with the new sound and it’s an important record for you then you go with the undisputed king of that sound and not try to replicate it with a producer known for another type of sound.

I was hoping upon hope that she would have stayed on MCA and that LA and Babyface had produced it. The albums they did for Sheena Easton and Karyn White were amazing. I still think Jam and Lewis and the other members of their Flyte Tyme [[not sure if spelling is correct) production team would also have been amazing. Thinking of Patti Austin’s The Heat of Heat and Thelma Houston’s You Used to Hold Me So Tight. Even Jody Watley and Andre Cymone, knowing how much Jody loved and idolized Diana. They could have done some great stuff with her also.

[Guy]

I understand. What I meant was the album as is unchanged with Teddy Riley’s name on it would have resulted in a better selling record. If you are going with the new sound and it’s an important record for you then you go with the undisputed king of that sound and not try to replicate it with a producer known for another type of sound.

I was hoping upon hope that she would have stayed on MCA and that LA and Babyface had produced it. The albums they did for Sheena Easton and Karyn White were amazing. I still think Jam and Lewis and the other members of their Flyte Tyme [[not sure if spelling is correct) production team would also have been amazing. Thinking of Patti Austin’s The Heat of Heat and Thelma Houston’s You Used to Hold Me So Tight. Even Jody Watley and Andre Cymone, knowing how much Jody loved and idolized Diana. They could have done some great stuff with her also.

Nile Rodgers was just a bad fit for Ross. Nile is a very talented rock musician who had no business experimenting with 'new jack swing' or 'house' music. He may have had impairments at that time but even if
he had been at full mast that just wasn't his turf. Teddy Riley had just created one of the landmark albums of the era [[1988's "Guy"). If nothing else he would have given Ross a radio-friendly mega-hit.

Bernard Edwards was the funky half of Chic. He produced maybe the best track of Ross's RCA tenure [["Telephone") and his work with Jody Watley and Power Station was sublime. Even so, Nile could have given Ross that soulful dance-pop magic he gave Sheena Easton, Grace Jones or Cathy Dennis. It was the 'new jack swing' that tripped him up -- he never tried that again after WO

I agree that Jam & Lewis, LA & Babyface or Teddy Riley would have been great. I just think Ross didn't want to go 'too black' with her sound. Same reason she resisted Luther's desire to produce her. So she ended up with a milquetoast product that garnered limited fan response. Motown had to beg, steal and borrow to get airplay for the title track -- everyone I knew at the time hated that song. I love the lyrics but I don't like the sound.

[nomis]

I understand. What I meant was the album as is unchanged with Teddy Riley’s name on it would have resulted in a better selling record. If you are going with the new sound and it’s an important record for you then you go with the undisputed king of that sound and not try to replicate it with a producer known for another type of sound.

I was hoping upon hope that she would have stayed on MCA and that LA and Babyface had produced it. The albums they did for Sheena Easton and Karyn White were amazing. I still think Jam and Lewis and the other members of their Flyte Tyme [[not sure if spelling is correct) production team would also have been amazing. Thinking of Patti Austin’s The Heat of Heat and Thelma Houston’s You Used to Hold Me So Tight. Even Jody Watley and Andre Cymone, knowing how much Jody loved and idolized Diana. They could have done some great stuff with her also.

I'm adding those Sheena and Karyn albums to my shopping wish list.. Jody is a personal favorite of mine her debut album had banging singles I loved looking for a new love the first time I heard it and was blown away when she performed "don't you want me " on the short lived u.s. version of "top of the pops " I dug "still a thrill" as well that many don't remember..andre and Jody producing diana material would of had me running to the record store...

[Ollie9]

I understand. What I meant was the album as is unchanged with Teddy Riley’s name on it would have resulted in a better selling record. If you are going with the new sound and it’s an important record for you then you go with the undisputed king of that sound and not try to replicate it with a producer known for another type of sound.

I was hoping upon hope that she would have stayed on MCA and that LA and Babyface had produced it. The albums they did for Sheena Easton and Karyn White were amazing. I still think Jam and Lewis and the other members of their Flyte Tyme [[not sure if spelling is correct) production team would also have been amazing. Thinking of Patti Austin’s The Heat of Heat and Thelma Houston’s You Used to Hold Me So Tight. Even Jody Watley and Andre Cymone, knowing how much Jody loved and idolized Diana. They could have done some great stuff with her also.

I think producers like Ted Riley or Babyface would have been reluctant to take direction from Diana in the studio. This may have led to conflict.
Even working with Nile and Bernard on the diana album was not without its problems. Luther would have bowed to any whim, but his work with Dionne was less then stellar making a hit far from a guarantee
Had songs like WO, Bottom Line or Paradise been huge hits, i feel the album would be viewed in a more positive light today.

[Deepdishus2001]

I'm adding those Sheena and Karyn albums to my shopping wish list.. Jody is a personal favorite of mine her debut album had banging singles I loved looking for a new love the first time I heard it and was blown away when she performed "don't you want me " on the short lived u.s. version of "top of the pops " I dug "still a thrill" as well that many don't remember..andre and Jody producing diana material would of had me running to the record store...

All 3 of Karyn's Warner Brothers albums were fantastic. Sheena's two follow up studio albums, What Comes Naturally and My Cherie were also great but started moving back towards more adult pop with production from David Foster, Ric Wake [[Taylor Dayne), Narada Michael Walden, etc.

I've been a Jody fanatic since the Shalamar days. Her second album with Real Love, Friends, Everything was as good as the first. She also did Too Shy To Say on the Intimacy album. Do you have The Makeover, her covers album? She covers Borderline, Love Hangover [[just the beginning ballad part in a fantastic downtempo electronic version) and a Carpenters medley, which of course includes Close To you. Definitely would have love her and Andre with Diana, and duet, of course.

[Deepdishus2001]

I think producers like Ted Riley or Babyface would have been reluctant to take direction from Diana in the studio. This may have led to conflict.
Even working with Nile and Bernard on the diana album was not without its problems. Luther would have bowed to any whim, but his work with Dionne was less then stellar making a hit far from a guarantee
Had songs like WO, Bottom Line or Paradise been huge hits, i feel the album would be viewed in a more positive light today.

Babyface worked with Aretha on Willing to Forgive and Honey for her Arista 1980-1994 Greatest Hits compilation so I think he could have handled Diana. I think Teddy Riley also could have pushed back. Speaking of Babyface, I know another thread discusses the Diana & Marvin album, which I love, his duet album with Toni Braxton; Love, Marriage & Divorce is the only other duet album I listen to on a regular basis. Absolutely brilliant. I definitely can hear him singing with Diana.

As for Luther, I think his Dionne produced album is, as a whole, better than his 2 with Aretha. Outside of Jump to It and Get It Right [[which is pretty much a carbon copy of Jump), I can't remember anything from those albums. I also thought that the Doctors Orders duet was atrocious. Diana sounded so crisp and strong on It's Hard for Me to Say that I think a whole album might have turned out well.

As I have said before, at that time R&B had become so producer driven that as long as the producer listed was Teddy, LA & Babyface, Jam & Lewis, Dallas Austin, etc., a record was most like to have been a hit.

Thinking of Mary, I can hear her doing dance/uptempo R&B like Gwen Guthrie's Ain't Nothing Going On But the Rent and Padlock or Jocelyn Browne's Somebody Else's Guy.

[Ollie9]

Bernard Edwards was the funky half of Chic. He produced maybe the best track of Ross's RCA tenure [["Telephone")

I agree that Jam & Lewis, LA & Babyface or Teddy Riley would have been great. I just think Ross didn't want to go 'too black' with her sound. Same reason she resisted Luther's desire to produce her. So she ended up with a milquetoast product that garnered limited fan response.

On these points I agree. “Telephone is my favourite RCA song.
Diana often appeared reluctant to commit herself to just one producer, making many of her albums less then cohesive. I agree that with the exception of EDIAND she seemed to back away from getting to black/soulful which is probably why she would never have done a complete album with the likes of Luther, Teddy or Baby during that time frame.

[Ollie9]

Babyface worked with Aretha on Willing to Forgive and Honey for her Arista 1980-1994 Greatest Hits compilation so I think he could have handled Diana. I think Teddy Riley also could have pushed back. Speaking of Babyface, I know another thread discusses the Diana & Marvin album, which I love, his duet album with Toni Braxton; Love, Marriage & Divorce is the only other duet album I listen to on a regular basis. Absolutely brilliant. I definitely can hear him singing with Diana.

As for Luther, I think his Dionne produced album is, as a whole, better than his 2 with Aretha. Outside of Jump to It and Get It Right [[which is pretty much a carbon copy of Jump), I can't remember anything from those albums. I also thought that the Doctors Orders duet was atrocious. Diana sounded so crisp and strong on It's Hard for Me to Say that I think a whole album might have turned out well.

As I have said before, at that time R&B had become so producer driven that as long as the producer listed was Teddy, LA & Babyface, Jam & Lewis, Dallas Austin, etc., a record was most like to have been a hit.

Thinking of Mary, I can hear her doing dance/uptempo R&B like Gwen Guthrie's Ain't Nothing Going On But the Rent and Padlock or Jocelyn Browne's Somebody Else's Guy.

Dionne’s Luther produced album sounds a little flat to me. It just doesn’t take off and her voice sounds out of its comfort zone on many of the songs. I’m not so certain a Luther/Diana musical marriage would have worked out so well....Perhaps.
Diana & Marvin is a classic duets album. I will definitely check out T.B’s “Love Marriage & Divorce album.
I think a jazz influenced producer like Dave Grusin would have been the perfect matchup for Mary. I love what he did with Patti Austin.

[nomis]

WO was one of the times she took a risk and it didnt work - Mountain,LSTB,Love Hangover..theres plently of times she was prepared to switch up her game and try something..different - IMO apart from "Paradise" & " Bottom Line" the album just dosent have strong material...other risks in her career failed but found acclaim decades later [["The Wiz" "Funny Girl")..but with Overtime is just isnt good..but at least she was still trying something different its impossible to think of her contemporaries such as Midler or Streisand trying WO material..

[midnightman]

I can't see Mary doing it. If I'm not mistaken, Phyllis Hyman also received the track but knowing how she felt about club music, she would've turned it down too. They ultimately gave it to the right artist because Madonna was, for better lack of terms, a disco singer.

[midnightman]

Patti is mostly a nice person. She does have an alter ego she calls Priscilla [[no idea how to spell that) and she is the one who could be a witch.I went to see Patti and the Bluebelles get inducted into the R &B Hall of Fame way back in maybe 1999. The girls sang a song and when it ended, Sarah Dash started talking to the audience, and Patti didn't like it. Patti basically told Sarah off in front of everybody, saying something to the effect of "See, This is why we didn't get along back in the day--you're always interrupting me." Sarah was in tears after the show, and said she had no idea why Patti acted that way. Much has been said over the years of how it was Patti and Nona who butted heads in the 70's and maybe that was true, but in the 90's it seemed more like Patti vs Sarah to me. Want to see what I'm talking about? look up the Patti Live from NYC video where she brings Nona and Sarah out to sing Release Yourself. Towards the end, Patti allows Nona to do a solo ad lib which she completely KILLED, and then Patti points to Sarah to do her ad lib. Sarah does hers and Patti gestures back to Nona to do a second ad lib, but Sarah just starts wailing again and Patti gestures to her to stop. Sarah went off script! Nona handled it very well, of course, and just sort of demurred. Anyway, I don't really understand how their relationship works, but they seem to forgive each other since they've reunited several times over the years. In 2008, when Labelle were doing their reunion tour in LA, in between songs one of Patti's fans yelled out, wanting Patti to sing Somewhere Over the Rainbow. Sarah stopped the fan in mid-sentence and said "No--this is a Labelle show, not a Patti solo show." Something like that. Patti was not happy and Nona looked like she just didn't want to get involved. These divas! I don't think Patti is malicious most of the time, but she has her moods just like anybody else but the difference is when she has her moments, they are often in front of hundreds of people.

Patti herself said she's not an easy person to get along with it at times so I get when she's pissed, she blames it on "Priscilla". Patti wrote how she and Sarah used to fight all the time. Sometimes she'd fight with Cindy. I don't know about any Patti-Nona issue until the Labelle era but it's only alleged. No one has done any tell-all on Patti [[likely because either her reputation is not icy enough for one like Diana's or Aretha's or because they got NDAs, either one is possible). It seems of the three, Patti and Nona get along more than Patti and Sarah. It's likely Patti and Sarah still have some unresolved issues, Patti is always more appreciative of Nona, it looks.

[BobbyC]

Hi Midnight. Nona has always been 100% positive about Patti when I've talked to her. That's just Nona being Nona. I think she doesn't want to get into any negative BS on the subject. I also think Nona sees it all as ancient history that doesn't need to be dredged up. Back in the 70's when Labelle was still together, Patti was really uncomfortable about singing songs about sex. Sarah, Vicki and Nona didn't have a problem with it. I think this started to wear on Patti, always being out-voted. Also, Patti wanted to do more ballads which, she said, was impossible within the confines of Labelle. Vicki and Nona wanted Labelle to be seen in the same way that the Rolling Stones or the Who was seen and that's how they presented themselves. As Sarah once famously said "Honey, the Supremes we ain't." Eventually the friction just got too bad and things fell apart.

[nomis]

I recently purchased the dvd set - "History Of Rock N Roll" Patti is interviewed and shares her thoughts on the supremes stating they have never received the credit due to them for what they accomplished..she also said she was stunned by the amount of catalog the supremes recorded.. it was nice to hear her giving their work some props

[midnightman]

But that’s the point Guy, WO wasn’t terrible by Ross standards. The production on those first two RCA albums was s**t, not to mention the lazy vocals which sadly extended to ross 83. As previously mentioned, there is a lot of on-line love for the album which seems to gather momentum as the years go by.
The Wiz was once thought of as Diana’s worst movie but is now her most popular. I think the same will one day apply to Workin’ Overtime.

Now I don't know about all of that lol

[midnightman]

Hi Midnight. Nona has always been 100% positive about Patti when I've talked to her. That's just Nona being Nona. I think she doesn't want to get into any negative BS on the subject. I also think Nona sees it all as ancient history that doesn't need to be dredged up. Back in the 70's when Labelle was still together, Patti was really uncomfortable about singing songs about sex. Sarah, Vicki and Nona didn't have a problem with it. I think this started to wear on Patti, always being out-voted. Also, Patti wanted to do more ballads which, she said, was impossible within the confines of Labelle. Vicki and Nona wanted Labelle to be seen in the same way that the Rolling Stones or the Who was seen and that's how they presented themselves. As Sarah once famously said "Honey, the Supremes we ain't." Eventually the friction just got too bad and things fell apart.

Yeah, Patti always wanted to go back to the ballads and I guess the years of being outvoted got to her. Patti jumped at the chance to do "Isn't It a Shame" on the Chameleon album even though her "soul sisters" weren't too excited about it. On the other hand, Patti grimaced at having to do songs like "You Turned Me On" and "Going Down Makes Me Shiver" because of the sexual connotations to them. Labelle was ahead of their time due to Nona Hendryx. No other girl group showed as much edge as them. I think it took YEARS for Patti to recognize that but back in those days, she hated it.

In a group of liberal women, she was the moderate [[if not politically, definitely musically) lol

That's why when she went solo, she took to ballads right away because, I guess, she knew her strengths were there but ironically it took a dance song to make her a pop star [["New Attitude") lol

[midnightman]

I recently purchased the dvd set - "History Of Rock N Roll" Patti is interviewed and shares her thoughts on the supremes stating they have never received the credit due to them for what they accomplished..she also said she was stunned by the amount of catalog the supremes recorded.. it was nice to hear her giving their work some props

Patti was a big Supremes/Motown fan. Which is why it hurt her that Motown basically took Cindy away from the group [[or that Cindy did this without telling the other girls; Patti has said if Cindy had told her that she was going, she admitted she would've been upset but she wouldn't have stopped her). But yeah I remember her giving them props, which was great. She was always a fan of Diana's music, which is why when she was asked to perform in a tribute for her [[I forget the song, may have been Endless Love with Gerald), she didn't hesitate to do so.