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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I quite like Aretha, but am not really what you would call a massive fan. I actually prefer Diana’s version of “Amazing Grace”. Back to you honey.
    Yikes! But hey, it takes all kinds...so...

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy View Post
    See what you have wrought, RanRan79? Folks just talking crazy.

    Go ahead and take care, TCB. I'll cover for you, say that you were unarmed and I didn't see what happened.
    Crazy is in the mind of the beholder.

    Let's make sure our stories are straight though. I was with you at the time the crime was committed. We were listening to Barbra Streisand.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    The person I was referring to never says anything bad about Aretha. They just don’t think her voice is all that. Raised on gospel music, so knows and appreciates good soulful singing. As far as contemporary singers, they rate Patti and Gladys above Aretha vocally.
    Someone once told me that they didn't think Patti Labelle could sing. I was about 19 and thought to myself "what kind of foolishness...". But it was my first lesson- musically- in not everyone hears what I hear. Music, like any other art form, moves people. I imagine that movement is a result of a number of factors. While I rate Diana and Aretha both as my #1 favorite female singers of all time, truth is I have never been more moved by a particular female vocal like I have by Aretha and Mahalia Jackson. Those two women just have the ability to move my soul in a way no other woman singer has, and I suspect no other woman singer ever will. Now from a technical standpoint, of course Patti can sing. I would say that's indisputable. Unfortunately, a lot of people confuse singing ability with likeability. It's the same problem I feel people have when discussing Diana Ross. While I love me some Patti, I can see where some might find her unique style grating on the nerves. I myself have been annoyed a time or 200 with what I feel is over singing a song that didn't need it. Truth be told, I've even thought Aretha has "over sung" a song that didn't need so much once or twice. But anyway, that's just how life works.

    I just ran across a video on Youtube about a week or so ago where someone was talking about how the artist Thomas Kinkade is so polarizing in the art community. There are some who thinks he's the worst thing to happen to art. For the record I'm not that into paintings and stuff like that. I don't find the thought of perusing art galleries as my idea of a good time. (Though I wouldn't rule out enjoying it on some level because I do love museums in general.) But when I see a painting that appeals to me, it appeals to me, and TK's art is stunning in my book. I love almost everything I've seen of his, but I also love almost everything by Ernie Barnes too. I get that some people might see something by TK or Ernie and think it isn't appealing to them, but to flat out suggest that they're horrible artists is insane to me. Barbra Streisand does not appeal to me on any level. She's like chitlins to me: I can see why some might find it appealing, but as for me, I'll pass. And I usually try to keep that in mind regarding my own favorite artists and the folks who opt to "pass".

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    I also think that disco became so popular and was eclipsing all other genres of music (the way hip/hop and r&b is currently doing)
    R&B where????

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Crazy is in the mind of the beholder.

    Let's make sure our stories are straight though. I was with you at the time the crime was committed. We were listening to Barbra Streisand.
    ...LOL...Funnily enough, sodís law and all of that, this very morning l happened by chance to catch Aretha singing a gospel infused number and it stopped me in my tracks. Not many singers have that effect.

  6. #106
    Boogie-- EWF was my third concert I saw as a kid. Back then, they were NOT considered a disco act. They were playing stadiums, in the same way that only The Commodores and PFunk were able to do. Yes they did songs that were played in clubs, but they were a funk/rock hybrid band, not disco. The subject matter of their songs was not about dancing for dancing sake. Even Boogie Wonderland, the closest thing to disco they ever did, was a dark song about the downside of the party-all-night lifestyle

  7. #107
    RanRan I agree about singers like Patti. She has an incredible instrument, she's almost a mutant, but a lot of people hated it. She is an old school, full throttle singer. I always loved it, but had friends who would practically get violent hearing it. One reviewer said her voice could sometimes be "abrasive caterwaulering" (I have no idea how to spell that). That's how most of my friends felt too. They had the same terrible reaction to Susaye Greene and Billy Davis Jr. The reaction they had to Mary Scherrie and Susaye caught me completely off-guard. They loved Mary and Scherrie on High Energy, but if Susaye got turned up in the mix, they hated it.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Boogie-- EWF was my third concert I saw as a kid. Back then, they were NOT considered a disco act. They were playing stadiums, in the same way that only The Commodores and PFunk were able to do. Yes they did songs that were played in clubs, but they were a funk/rock hybrid band, not disco. The subject matter of their songs was not about dancing for dancing sake. Even Boogie Wonderland, the closest thing to disco they ever did, was a dark song about the downside of the party-all-night lifestyle
    I do get your point . Kool & The Gang are similar in their evolution.

    That's the thing though. An artist didn't choose disco, it chose you! Disco was self birthed, self determinate. If your music worked on the dancefloor, you're in!
    And trying to be 'disco' didn't guarantee disco success (as in the Ohio Players example I posted).

    Originally nobody entered the music profession wanting to be a disco act. ( How could they ? it didn't yet exist!) Not Donna Summer , not the Bee Gees , not Gloria Gaynor, not Sylvester , not The Village People. OK maybe The Village People ...lol!
    Not Diana Ross. They were just in the 'right' place at the 'right' time in music history , although ultimately Donna Summer didn't consider it to be that way.

    EWF charted disco seven separate times from '75- '81 with LET'S GROOVE hitting #3.

    SUN GODDESS was the first ....reaching #14


    Goddess, that's a great song.


    Hey Bobby , I'm impressed you know that EW&F was your third concert, so what were the first two?

    Now I'm trying to remember my first concert ever ....I''ll have to put some thought into it.



    Added: Now I'm remembering how this killed in the clubs:

    Last edited by Boogiedown; 01-15-2021 at 03:27 PM.

  9. #109
    Heehee! My first concert was Heart. Second was PFunk and then EWF. Rufus/chaka were sort of 4th, except that CK was wasted and fell off the stage. They were doing Any Love, and I realized whatever CK thought she was singing, it wasn't Any Love. She was just sort of mumbling and then POOF! She vanished. She fell off the stage and the show was cancelled

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Heehee! My first concert was Heart. Second was PFunk and then EWF. Rufus/chaka were sort of 4th, except that CK was wasted and fell off the stage. They were doing Any Love, and I realized whatever CK thought she was singing, it wasn't Any Love. She was just sort of mumbling and then POOF! She vanished. She fell off the stage and the show was cancelled

    lmao ! Hilarious! well, it was memorable. ( get your money back??)

  11. #111
    Regarding disco: Back in the 90's I had a DJ friend named Tony who was 10 or so years older than I. One day I was keeping him company while he played and we started talking about old school music and he said something about disco that I never forgot. He explained that people, by the time the mid/late 70's rolled around, had forgotten that disco USED too be beautiful music--big orchestration and all that. I never thought about it until he said that. Remember that song Love's Theme by Love Unlimited? Man that song was beautiful. Tony was right. Then everything went to hell. Anyway you are right--by 1976 if you wanted a recording contract, you had better do disco. It's just how it was back then. There were terrific dance songs, it needs to be said. I thought songs like Shame by Evelyn Champagne King and others were great pop songs

  12. #112
    Did I get my money back? I don't remember but I seriously doubt it. What I do remember from that show was my first encounter with drug dealers. I went with my dopey rural white friend Daryl and he was naive going on stupid.When we parked at the venue, all these older guys approached us, being overly friendly, and dummy Daryl thought they wanted to talk about the about-to-happen show! He just started babbling to them, they looked baffled, so I grabbed him by the arm and ushered him into the concert hall. How I knew they were drug dealers, I don't know but I did. Man to be that naive again...

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Regarding disco: Back in the 90's I had a DJ friend named Tony who was 10 or so years older than I. One day I was keeping him company while he played and we started talking about old school music and he said something about disco that I never forgot. He explained that people, by the time the mid/late 70's rolled around, had forgotten that disco USED too be beautiful music--big orchestration and all that. I never thought about it until he said that. Remember that song Love's Theme by Love Unlimited? Man that song was beautiful. Tony was right. Then everything went to hell. Anyway you are right--by 1976 if you wanted a recording contract, you had better do disco. It's just how it was back then. There were terrific dance songs, it needs to be said. I thought songs like Shame by Evelyn Champagne King and others were great pop songs

    Don't get me started ! lol! Don't try to pigeon hole 'disco' as any one sound ....it varied greatly . But yes there was some great orchestrated disco.
    LOVE'S THEME predates the 'disco' term ....but - when Billboard published its first disco chart Nov. '74 ?? YOU'RE THE FIRST THE LAST MY EVERYTHING was #4. But also this sound was #9:





    hmmmm so now I put those two together and I sort of get this ( #1 disco , Aug '76):




    never caught that before.
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 01-15-2021 at 03:52 PM.

  14. #114
    Yeah, in hindsight music historians feel that Love's theme was a key proto-disco song. I was a wrestling fan as a little kid, and God help us Love's Theme was the theme song for wrestling!! Hee hee! Who had that brilliant idea?!! Dopes.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Yeah, in hindsight music historians feel that Love's theme was a key proto-disco song. I was a wrestling fan as a little kid, and God help us Love's Theme was the theme song for wrestling!! Hee hee! Who had that brilliant idea?!! Dopes.
    Hilarious. You mean like high school wrestling? Or the fake stuff? I don't imagine wrestling having a theme song anyway , but LOVE'S THEME ! ....!

  16. #116
    "professional" wrestling!! The fake stuff! Yeah Love's Theme seemed completely wrong to me even as a kid!

  17. #117
    So what's the difference between Disco and R&B Dance music?

  18. #118
    Nothing really, but the disco lifestyle took over everything in pop culture for a short time. I think that's what we're talking about here. It was a fad back then like Star Wars was, or kung fu. My DJ friend said records with a 4/4 beat were disco.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by SatansBlues View Post
    So what's the difference between Disco and R&B Dance music?
    Well, disco and R&B are both usually in 4/4 time. The distinction is that R&B tends to emphasize the '2' and the '4' beats (or the '1,' in the case of funk...think James Brown and P-Funk) while all beats receive the same emphasis in disco. This was a major factor in disco's mass appeal...it was easier and less daunting for the general public to dance to it compared to R&B and funk's more demanding rhythms.
    Last edited by sansradio; 01-15-2021 at 08:53 PM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by sansradio View Post
    Well, disco and R&B are both usually in 4/4 time. The distinction is that R&B tends to emphasize the '2' and the '4' beats (or the '1,' in the case of funk...think James Brown and P-Funk) while all beats receive the same emphasis in disco. This was a major factor in disco's mass appeal...it was easier and less daunting for the general public to dance to it compared to R&B and funk's more demanding rhythms.
    Preach, Sansradio! Perfect.

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    Preach, Sansradio! Perfect.
    Cheers!

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Crazy is in the mind of the beholder.

    Let's make sure our stories are straight though. I was with you at the time the crime was committed. We were listening to Barbra Streisand.
    quote

    LMAO!!!

  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    The person I was referring to never says anything bad about Aretha. They just donít think her voice is all that. Raised on gospel music, so knows and appreciates good soulful singing. As far as contemporary singers, they rate Patti and Gladys above Aretha vocally.
    This "person"... is her birthname Patricia Holt?!

  24. #124
    ^^ lol. Nope.

  25. #125
    Thelma gets it. She sums up the disco sound perfectly at 1:22:



    lol!


    here's Earl Young, the disco beat's original architect, explaining it and the hi hat further:

    Last edited by Boogiedown; 01-16-2021 at 12:47 PM.

  26. #126
    This thread is awesome but I have no real musical education so I am intimidated

  27. #127
    in my 6 hour dj set last night the title track - "Guilty" got the best crowd reaction of the night they were singing along..its been mentioned earlier in the thread that Frank Sinatra and Aretha Franklin have both praised Streisands vocal abilties..they are both on record stating that Judy Garland had the greatest voice of all (Franklin wrote an essay on Garland in the booklet of the exellent Garland box set by 32 Jazz records & Sinatra made the statement at Garland passing in 1969 - "the rest of us will be forgotten..but never Judy"..Streisand her self has commented that Garland was "the greatest" on the racist and homophobic backlash on disco -it was also in part a disturbing misogynistic reaction to the large percentage of female artists in the disco field women had so much less respect in the industry in the 70s the music industry the press managers agents promoters were nearly all male dominated fields thank the lord weve moved on

  28. #128
    So is that a good gig or a bad one when GUILTY by Barbra Streisand is the nights high point?

    nomis:
    on the racist and homophobic backlash on disco -it was also in part a disturbing misogynistic reaction to the large percentage of female artists in the disco field women had so much less respect in the industry in the 70s the music industry the press managers agents promoters were nearly all male dominated fields
    OMGosh then poor Nona Hendryx , she was DOOMED !
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 01-18-2021 at 06:00 PM.

  29. #129
    Nona WAS doomed. She came out as bisexual in 1975 and that pretty much doomed her career. Vicki, her longtime companion and manager expressed her belief that anyone admitting they were gay back then were basically signing the death warrant of their career. It took Elton John years to recover, same with David Bowie even though with both there were other factors involved. Nona was one of the first several black artists who MTV put into rotation with the single I Need Love, but because she had drag queens in the video, the public raised hell and got the vid yanked. Sad but true. People today are very naive in regards to how nasty people used to be towards anything "gay." Thank God things are better today.

  30. #130
    We can only guess which of the triad doomed her most ... or just bad "material" forgive the pun.

    Bobby, she came out in '75??
    She put out an LP in '77 , so not sure how blacklisted she was . Was there a hit on there she was robbed of??

  31. #131
    Last edited by sansradio; 01-18-2021 at 09:53 PM.

  32. #132
    It's a fact. I never said she was black listed. Most people didn't know who she was in 1977. One of the reasons Labelle broke up was that fans kept saying the songs she wrote for Labelle were about homosexuality, which Nona denied. Fans also gossiped that Patti, Nona and Sarah were having sex together, which was never true. They held hands often onstage and the more thick skulled fans took that to mean more than it did and after a while Patti got tired of the rumors, amongst other things. Patti's husband Armstead talked about this in the seminal 1977 Essence article about the break up of Labelle. Yes there were other issues and yes Patti has always been very cool about her gay following, but she got fed up with people gossiping about things that weren't true. Anyway, Nona's career from 1981 was an uphill battle because maybe most of the people at RCA were fine with her being gay, but they knew the public wouldn't be. I recall when her album Nona came out in 1983--people went nuts over it--until they found out she was gay. I had one black female friend announce to me "Nona Hendryx is GAY. I knew there was something strange about that woman." I never forgot that

  33. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    It's a fact. I never said she was black listed. Most people didn't know who she was in 1977. One of the reasons Labelle broke up was that fans kept saying the songs she wrote for Labelle were about homosexuality, which Nona denied. Fans also gossiped that Patti, Nona and Sarah were having sex together, which was never true. They held hands often onstage and the more thick skulled fans took that to mean more than it did and after a while Patti got tired of the rumors, amongst other things. Patti's husband Armstead talked about this in the seminal 1977 Essence article about the break up of Labelle. Yes there were other issues and yes Patti has always been very cool about her gay following, but she got fed up with people gossiping about things that weren't true. Anyway, Nona's career from 1981 was an uphill battle because maybe most of the people at RCA were fine with her being gay, but they knew the public wouldn't be. I recall when her album Nona came out in 1983--people went nuts over it--until they found out she was gay. I had one black female friend announce to me "Nona Hendryx is GAY. I knew there was something strange about that woman." I never forgot that
    Having trouble with this one . Had Nona come out in 1975, and Patti split ties with her in 1976, I don't think that would've sat well with their significant gay fan base. Also what songs were tinged in homosexuality??
    What can I read to find out more? How to access that Essence piece?

  34. #134
    I'm not seeing the issue with what I posted. By "coming out" I mean Nona made comments in the press that she had been with men and she'd been with women. Nona and Vicki had been a couple since 1970, although it took them a while to tell Patti and Sarah. Homosexuality was absolutely NOT accepted at the time by the public. Patti was fine with gay people and she was fine with Nona and Vicki being a couple, but I'm sure it was still hard to come out back then. In 1976, they put out Nona's song Going Down Makes Me Shiver and as soon as it came out, rumors ran through their fans that it was about female on female oral sex. Nona said it was about spirituality. Check out the lyrics--it could be taken both ways and the double entendre was no accident IMO. Nona was always the "bad girl" anyway. I don't know where you'll find that Essence article, maybe at a library-it came out in 1977 and was called something like Labelle: A whodunit, After 17 Years a Group Breaks Up. I used to have it but can't find it anymore. Anyway Labelle got a rep as a "gay group" back when it wasn't cool, and their record sales went downhill once the rumors started. It's all true. I remember the rumors even though I wasn't sure what gay was, except that it was bad. Similar rumors hit Stevie Nicks when her song Sarah came out. A woman writing a song about another woman meant she was gay to a lot of people even though it was absolutely not true.

  35. #135
    Interesting stuff. You said 1975 so definitively that I thought there must've been a specific article that occurred in that year in which she made her personal affairs public. That would've likely to have been in the advocate which was a newspaper rag then and I read it regularly . Had that happened and then they split up shortly after I think that would've been seen as Patti LaBelle not wanting to be associated with any of that .

    As it is , reading the lyrics to GOING DOWN , yes I can definitely see why fans talked and why Patty Labelle even might've said if that's where you want to take your music I think you better do it on your own.
    Now I'm wondering what was on Hendryx first solo LP?
    Last edited by Boogiedown; 01-19-2021 at 12:36 PM.

  36. #136
    Boogie there were lots of articles discussing the gay thing and Labelle. I can't distill it into one article but the 1977 Essence article is a good place to start. Both Nona and Armstead talk about the rumors and all the rest of it--and they were both referring to things that happened in the past couple of years.Of Nona and Sarah and Patti "loving each other" Armstead said "It might have been beautiful had it been true but it wasn't." I have spoken to many fans over the years and I was astonished that some felt like this meant Patti was anti-gay. That had nothing to do with it. She has always been pro-gay and was one of the few stars, at the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, to come out in support.Look at the Don Kirsher's Rock Concert clip of Labelle doing Gypsy Moths from 1976. The crowd obviously is packed with flamboyant drag queen types, which is just the opposite of the crowd they'd drawn just a year before on the Phoenix tour. This was UNHEARD OF at the time. I know for a fact that by the time Chameleon came out, fights were breaking out between gays and straight people at their shows. Same thing happened at the Supreme's Madison Square Garden show the same year. Gay people were becoming visible and as with all things, there was a backlash when there is change.

  37. #137
    There were no songs on Nona's 1977 solo debut that could be construed as being gay centric. It was, however, "probably the hardest rock ever done by a woman" according to Rollingstone Mag.

  38. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Heehee! My first concert was Heart. Second was PFunk and then EWF. Rufus/chaka were sort of 4th, except that CK was wasted and fell off the stage. They were doing Any Love, and I realized whatever CK thought she was singing, it wasn't Any Love. She was just sort of mumbling and then POOF! She vanished. She fell off the stage and the show was cancelled
    Hey , how was Heart btw?

    You've got me listening to Nona '77! She sounds quite accessible ... nothing jarring. (not sure why I was expecting that)

    This kind of crack me up. Good ol' cowbell rock n roll ....with a universal message ....well at least you ain't dead ! lol!
    I think the refraining vocals could have been a little more enthusiastic at the end .



    and Patti doesn't seem the least hesitant about Nona's song:


  39. #139
    Hi Boogie--you might need to watch that clip of Going Down again. Patti looks like she's going to cry in most of this concert. It wasn't because of the song it was because of other things happening at the time. I don't know if Patti ever had a problem with the song which could just as easily be about baptism--it's when fans kept saying it was about sex that things got awkward. Patti was never comfortable singing about sex. By the way, look how hot Nona and Sarah look!
    Last edited by BobbyC; Yesterday at 12:40 PM.

  40. #140
    Maybe you thought the album Nona Hendryx would be jarring because she's holding a giant bowie knife!

  41. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Maybe you thought the album Nona Hendryx would be jarring because she's holding a giant bowie knife!
    well uh ya ,now that you point it out , that might've had something to do with it!!! (who does that!?)

    LOL!!

  42. #142
    Boogie--Wanna hear something crazy? I remember going to some record store as a kid in Jr high and seeing that album. I recall, vividly, thinking why would ANYBODY buy that crap? All because of the album cover! A few years later, I was her biggest fan. I don't know why Nona always felt the need to seem threatening early on. It definitely hurt her.

  43. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    There were no songs on Nona's 1977 solo debut that could be construed as being gay centric. It was, however, "probably the hardest rock ever done by a woman" according to Rollingstone Mag.
    I (a proud 'Labelle Hag', as Patti so elegantly puts it) would argue that 'Tout de Suite Mam'selle' is gay centric. I remember the Rolling Stone review well, having purchased the lp the split-second I saw it in a local record store.

  44. #144
    BobbyC and Boogie, you should start a Nona/Labelle discussion! We LOVE Nona and Labelle! So much to talk about. I hate that all of these excellent observations and new commentary are buried in a "Diana Ross sings Barbra Streisand" discussion.

  45. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    R&B where????
    It's everywhere if you're looking for it.

  46. #146
    Where would I put a Labelle discussion? They were never on Motown.

    Peacenharmony: Tout De Suite is a song Nona wrote about Sarah and Patti, and their break up. Nothing sexual in it, gay or straight. The line Always made me laugh/never brought me down/running around in circles like a circus clown is about Sarah

  47. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Where would I put a Labelle discussion? They were never on Motown.
    In the Soulful Detroit forum where we talk about everyone who was never on Motown.

    https://soulfuldetroit.com/forumdisp...-Detroit-Forum

  48. #148
    Just an interesting side note...after reading this thread I discovered that Barry Gibb's recorded demos for both the "Guilty" album and the "Heartbreaker" (Dionne Warwick) album are available for download. I listened to the "Guilty" demos. While Barry's falsetto does get tiresome after a while, it's interesting to hear him perform all the songs as Streisand must have originally heard them.

    I've never been a huge Streisand fan. To me, a little of her goes a long way. But I absolutely love the "Guilty" album and can listen to it over and over. I especially love the final track, "Make it Like a Memory" which to me is like nothing Stresiand (or the Bee Gees for that matter) ever recorded before or since. Of course, like many things, it took me about 40 years to discover and seriously listen to it!

    Last edited by kenneth; Today at 01:19 PM.

  49. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by kenneth View Post
    Just an interesting side note...after reading this thread I discovered that Barry Gibb's recorded demos for both the "Guilty" album and the "Heartbreaker" (Dionne Warwick) album are available for download. I listened to the "Guilty" demos. While Barry's falsetto does get tiresome after a while, it's interesting to hear him perform all the songs as Streisand must have originally heard them.

    I've never been a huge Streisand fan. To me, a little of her goes a long way. But I absolutely love the "Guilty" album and can listen to it over and over. I especially love the final track, "Make it Like a Memory" which to me is like nothing Stresiand (or the Bee Gees for that matter) ever recorded before or since. Of course, like many things, it took me about 40 years to discover and seriously listen to it!

    "Make It Like A Memory" is a masterpiece..i love the dramatic ending

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