Florence voice change

[floyjoy678]

I was listening to the '67 Copa show today and now listen I love Flo and her voice, I love her on lead for People much to most on here not, but I gotta say her voice did not sound good on this show. I don't know if it was what was going on behind the scenes but there are several spots where she's off-key and sounds like she's trying to hit notes she can't. Her soprano definitely was not strong as it was even just months earlier on the Roostertail show. It seems this change stuck with her though because her voice definitely was deeper by the time she did her ABC recordings. I remember playing one of her solo songs for an ex of mine and he knew what Flo sounded like in the Supremes and I had to convince him it was her voice [[Love Aint Love). He said it did not sound like her at all.

[khansperac]

Even the best of singers can have an off night. They worked nonstop. Maybe she was hoarse or had a cold. Diana often sounded hoarse as well. It happens.

[RanRan79]

Florence's voice did undergo a change. She seems to have lost some of that higher capabilities perhaps around the end of 1966. I've always noticed it and attributed it to a couple of factors:

-The drinking. The time her voice seems to change coincides with the accounts of her drinking becoming a problem. Alcohol affects the voice, irritating a "singer's larynx leading to swollen and inflamed vocal cords. This will make your singing voice have a raspy sound or project at a lower pitch than normal." [[The Internet) Florence, like the other two Supremes, was also a smoker, which obviously affects the voice. Might explain some of Diana's voice issues as the decade wore on.

-The stress she was under. Stress and anxiety also affect the voice. This might also explain some of Diana's periods of raspy singing.

-Misuse of instrument. Just a theory.

-Florence also seemed to have a weaker immune system that the other two and was more susceptible to illness. At any given time her voice issues might have been as Khan suggests, that she had been ill.

George Kerr said that when he began working with Flo, the voice she had as a Supreme wasn't quite there anymore. Later, before her death, Flo remarked [[to Benjaminson or a news outlet) that she was no longer a soprano, suggesting that there was a further "decline" of her voice. [[I don't use "decline" to mean bad or anything negative, but I couldn't think of a better word in the moment.) Of course at that point Flo had admitted to being an alcoholic, so the drinking never ceased. And she was older and hadn't used her musical gift in years.

[thanxal]

Florence's voice did undergo a change. She seems to have lost some of that higher capabilities perhaps around the end of 1966. I've always noticed it and attributed it to a couple of factors:

-The drinking. The time her voice seems to change coincides with the accounts of her drinking becoming a problem. Alcohol affects the voice, irritating a "singer's larynx leading to swollen and inflamed vocal cords. This will make your singing voice have a raspy sound or project at a lower pitch than normal." [[The Internet) Florence, like the other two Supremes, was also a smoker, which obviously affects the voice. Might explain some of Diana's voice issues as the decade wore on.

-The stress she was under. Stress and anxiety also affect the voice. This might also explain some of Diana's periods of raspy singing.

-Misuse of instrument. Just a theory.

-Florence also seemed to have a weaker immune system that the other two and was more susceptible to illness. At any given time her voice issues might have been as Khan suggests, that she had been ill.

George Kerr said that when he began working with Flo, the voice she had as a Supreme wasn't quite there anymore. Later, before her death, Flo remarked [[to Benjaminson or a news outlet) that she was no longer a soprano, suggesting that there was a further "decline" of her voice. [[I don't use "decline" to mean bad or anything negative, but I couldn't think of a better word in the moment.) Of course at that point Flo had admitted to being an alcoholic, so the drinking never ceased. And she was older and hadn't used her musical gift in years.

Shouldn't "heavy smoking" be added to the list? I've read somewhere [[and can't recall where) that by this point she was chain smoking. You end up sounding like Bea Arthur real quick when you chain smoke.

[RanRan79]

Shouldn't "heavy smoking" be added to the list? I've read somewhere [[and can't recall where) that by this point she was chain smoking. You end up sounding like Bea Arthur real quick when you chain smoke.

You missed it Al, filed under the drinking section.

[thommg]

If you don't use your voice your range will narrow. It's a muscle and you have to keep it in shape in order to sing. With the drinking and the smoking, coupled with the non-use of her singing voice there is no doubt that Flo's range decreased. Also, I don't know that any of the Supremes studied voice. If you push too hard from the throat, it damages the cords and your voice will become raspy and you will lose notes. It's about air control and exercising the voice to keep the range. Age also plays a part in the decrease of range, though I don't think that would have affected Flo as much as the drinkin, smoking and non-use of her instrument.

[thanxal]

You missed it Al, filed under the drinking section.

Yep. Missed that and skipped to the next bullet. I guess we could debate which one has a worse effect on the voice, but in combination it is certainly awful. Sinatra used to say in interviews he would stop smoking before a concert or recoding session, so people knew it wasn't good for them, contrary to much of the received wisdom that "no one knew smoking was bad for you in those days".

[sup_fan]

I was listening to the '67 Copa show today and now listen I love Flo and her voice, I love her on lead for People much to most on here not, but I gotta say her voice did not sound good on this show. I don't know if it was what was going on behind the scenes but there are several spots where she's off-key and sounds like she's trying to hit notes she can't. Her soprano definitely was not strong as it was even just months earlier on the Roostertail show. It seems this change stuck with her though because her voice definitely was deeper by the time she did her ABC recordings. I remember playing one of her solo songs for an ex of mine and he knew what Flo sounded like in the Supremes and I had to convince him it was her voice [[Love Aint Love). He said it did not sound like her at all.

agree with everyone's assessment here that drinking, training, smoking, stress, etc all could impact her range and capabilities. technique too - good breathing is necessary. if she had a head cold or under the weather, that too could hinder. Also age. she wasn't old enough to experience the deepening of the female voice that is associated with menopause but it is possible that her voice was simply finishing is maturation from adolescence.

out of curiosity, what spots within Copa 67 do you reference with this?

[reese]

George Kerr said that when he began working with Flo, the voice she had as a Supreme wasn't quite there anymore. Later, before her death, Flo remarked [[to Benjaminson or a news outlet) that she was no longer a soprano, suggesting that there was a further "decline" of her voice. [[I don't use "decline" to mean bad or anything negative, but I couldn't think of a better word in the moment.) Of course at that point Flo had admitted to being an alcoholic, so the drinking never ceased. And she was older and hadn't used her musical gift in years.

I think it was in the JET article where Flo mentioned she used to be a soprano but was now a contralto. That is quite a drop.

Mary wrote that Flo was a first soprano when she was in the group. I'm not technically knowledgeable when it comes to music. But from what I hear, I would think Flo was probably a second soprano. She certainly had some range on the high end, which is evidenced when they sang in harmony.

But I think her natural voice was lower, like on BUTTERED POPCORN and GOOD NEWS and later on, LOVE AIN'T LOVE. That combined with smoking and alcohol wouldn't make it a surprise that she lost some power.

I was going to add improper vocal technique plus too much singing as well. But I recall an article with Flo where she mentioned something about her music teacher telling her to drop her jaw and sing from her stomach. So it is possible that she did sing from her diaphragm instead of her throat.

[danman869]

RanRan and ThomMG both hit the nail on the head, IMO. As I was reading the thread [[before getting to Thom's post), I was thinking, "Flo left the Supremes in July 1967 and then didn't start recording for ABC until around April 1968. The likelihood that Flo was singing anything at performance level during those 9 months is about nil, so... her voice probably faltered because it wasn't being used." Plus, as both said: smoking and drinking.

Flo's voice on the ABC material wasn't amazing, but I think it was a combination of non-use, smoking and drinking, and the wrong material. If George Kerr said her voice in '68 wasn't quite what it had been during her Supremes years, that also leads me to believe that they were going for a "Supremes sound" for her ABC material [[which I would believe in listening to it) and they had to realize they weren't going to get that because, duh, they didn't sign Diana Ross to ABC, they signed Florence Ballard. Not that this was the focus on this discussion, but I think the ABC material mainly suffered because much of the material wasn't well chosen nor was the production that great on a lot of the album filler. Even the worst Motown album filler track [[IMO) was still, "MOTOWN!" whereas a lot of Flo's ABC album filler was just that: filler. It never would've happened, but I wish Flo was signed as a solo [[a la David Ruffin) to Motown rather than ABC. The backing tracks would've been strong and I think Motown producers would have had a better idea of her capabilities and how to record her voice. Maybe it wouldn't have been phenomenal, but I think it would've been better than the ABC material.

[sup_fan]

RanRan and ThomMG both hit the nail on the head, IMO. As I was reading the thread [[before getting to Thom's post), I was thinking, "Flo left the Supremes in July 1967 and then didn't start recording for ABC until around April 1968. The likelihood that Flo was singing anything at performance level during those 9 months is about nil, so... her voice probably faltered because it wasn't being used." Plus, as both said: smoking and drinking.

Flo's voice on the ABC material wasn't amazing, but I think it was a combination of non-use, smoking and drinking, and the wrong material. If George Kerr said her voice in '68 wasn't quite what it had been during her Supremes years, that also leads me to believe that they were going for a "Supremes sound" for her ABC material [[which I would believe in listening to it) and they had to realize they weren't going to get that because, duh, they didn't sign Diana Ross to ABC, they signed Florence Ballard. Not that this was the focus on this discussion, but I think the ABC material mainly suffered because much of the material wasn't well chosen nor was the production that great on a lot of the album filler. Even the worst Motown album filler track [[IMO) was still, "MOTOWN!" whereas a lot of Flo's ABC album filler was just that: filler. It never would've happened, but I wish Flo was signed as a solo [[a la David Ruffin) to Motown rather than ABC. The backing tracks would've been strong and I think Motown producers would have had a better idea of her capabilities and how to record her voice. Maybe it wouldn't have been phenomenal, but I think it would've been better than the ABC material.

i think the idea of her signing with motown is rather far fetched, although i do know they offered her some sort of deal or at least hinted at it.

there was SO much bad blood between her and Berry that the idea of her continuing to work and record at motown is frankly just not a possibility. i can't imagine that a single thing would have ever been released.

The david ruffin situation was one where there were problems between him and group but he never had the serious problems with the label until his lawsuit. post lawsuit, his motown output was offensively low and poor, given his incredible talents. it's obvious that once he did that, he was forever going to be banished to the dust bin at motown

Flo wouldn't have received a smidge of the effort David got

[sup_fan]

Dan - i do definitely agree though with your assessment of the music she recorded at ABC. it's way to light and pop-ish. Supreme knock off style and flo's vocals on these just sounds weak and whiney. a couple of the others at least have more drive and a better vocal from her.

[floyjoy678]

Sup_fan one track that stood out to me was The Happening. Also I think it may have been You're Nobody or Lady Is A Tramp or both she sounded hoarse and having a hard time hitting the high notes.

[thommg]

Flo's voice on the ABC material wasn't amazing, but I think it was a combination of non-use, smoking and drinking, and the wrong material. If George Kerr said her voice in '68 wasn't quite what it had been during her Supremes years, that also leads me to believe that they were going for a "Supremes sound" for her ABC material [[which I would believe in listening to it) and they had to realize they weren't going to get that because, duh, they didn't sign Diana Ross to ABC, they signed Florence Ballard. Not that this was the focus on this discussion, but I think the ABC material mainly suffered because much of the material wasn't well chosen nor was the production that great on a lot of the album filler. Even the worst Motown album filler track [[IMO) was still, "MOTOWN!" whereas a lot of Flo's ABC album filler was just that: filler. It never would've happened, but I wish Flo was signed as a solo [[a la David Ruffin) to Motown rather than ABC. The backing tracks would've been strong and I think Motown producers would have had a better idea of her capabilities and how to record her voice. Maybe it wouldn't have been phenomenal, but I think it would've been better than the ABC material.

I am in total agreement with you, Dan. Also, some of the ABC album sounds unfinished to me, like they were just run through's or first or second takes and she needed more time.

ABC seemed to be going for a pop sound which I don't think was the correct arena for Flo. It might have been nice if Atlantic picked her up. I think the sound they had was more fitting for Flo's voice and temperament. With a more soulful track under her, she might have scored bigger.

[TYK1986]

I guess you can compare it with Stevie Nicks from Fleetwood Mac. Her voice sounds so different on her later recordings. Compare Dreams and Rihannon with her later recording such as Seven Wonders and Gypsy. All that smoking and drinking just has an effect on your vocal chords. She sounded sweet mid 70's and then by the beginning of the 80's she sounded hoarse but somehow it worked for my taste.

[reese]

I guess you can compare it with Stevie Nicks from Fleetwood Mac. Her voice sounds so different on her later recordings. Compare Dreams and Rihannon with her later recording such as Seven Wonders and Gypsy. All that smoking and drinking just has an effect on your vocal chords. She sounded sweet mid 70's and then by the beginning of the 80's she sounded hoarse but somehow it worked for my taste.

I think Stevie might have had nodes on her vocal cords. I remember a television interview where she talked about her vocal problems and demonstrated how she should sing and speak correctly.

[lucky2012]

I guess you can compare it with Stevie Nicks from Fleetwood Mac. Her voice sounds so different on her later recordings. Compare Dreams and Rihannon with her later recording such as Seven Wonders and Gypsy. All that smoking and drinking just has an effect on your vocal chords. She sounded sweet mid 70's and then by the beginning of the 80's she sounded hoarse but somehow it worked for my taste.

I'm a casual admirer of Stevie Nicks, so I didn't notice the different phases of her voice. It was more about the songs and Gypsy is my favorite of hers. Love the guitars at the end.

[nomis]

im reading Stephen Davis biography of Nicks this weekend called "Gold Dust Woman" cant put it down brilliant book highly recommend it

[RanRan79]

there is no doubt that Flo's range decreased.

Thanks Thomm! That's the word I was looking for instead of "declined", decreased.

[RanRan79]

Agree with Thomm on Flo and soul. I think that was ultimately her wheelhouse, although because of her love of music and apparently her eclectic taste in it, she didn't always have to stay in that lane. But yeah, attempting to turn Florence into some kind of pop sensation had little chance of taking off. Flo at Stax just makes sense to me. At some point it might have been interesting to hear Flo switch to Philly, especially when disco became a big thing. In my mind I can hear Flo singing some of the stuff First Choice did.

[TYK1986]

I'm a casual admirer of Stevie Nicks, so I didn't notice the different phases of her voice. It was more about the songs and Gypsy is my favorite of hers. Love the guitars at the end.

Same here lucky. Gypsy is definitely my favourite of hers. The guitars at the end are one of my all time favourite parts of any song ever released. There is a version with added background vocals and the guitars are slightly sped up. Can't remember if it's the single of album version or just another version all together but that version is my fave. I'll have to start reading her biography, which has collected dust on my bookshelf.

Back to Florence. Ran I like what you say about Florence doing Philly. Maybe a Florence version of dirty o'll man. I think it would have been funny but some might not agree.

[RanRan79]

Back to Florence. Ran I like what you say about Florence doing Philly. Maybe a Florence version of dirty o'll man. I think it would have been funny but some might not agree.

I wouldn't have thought Flo and the 3 Degrees, but I think you have a point. The arrangement might have to change a bit, but lyrically I could hear Flo taking a stab at it.