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  1. #1
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    Florence Ballard: Self- Esteem and Copyright Question

    It was Florence Ballard who conceived the name of the group, "The Supremes".
    Does there exist a contract of Motown paying Florence for the conception of the group name, "The Supremes"?
    Did she legally sign away the copyright group name "The Supremes" to Motown?
    Florence Ballard was prohibited by a legal contract from advertising herself as a former member of "The Supremes". This legal contract most likely hurt her self esteem and self promotion efforts.
    Being that Ms. Ballard had psychological issues related to the intimate trauma that she suffered, should Motown have amended this group name usage contract, as an aid in her emotional rehabilitation and as an opportunity for her to properly promote herself, as a singer and an entertainer; enabling Ms. Ballard to provide for herself, her family and her children?
    I think Ms.Ballard's comedic talent and vocal power could have succeeded for her on Broadway- such as the lead in "Ain't Misbehaven"- The Broadway Musical.
    Ms. Ballard had audience enthusiasm going for her, just as well as the other fellow members of The Supremes.
    Was Ms.Ballard prohibited from writing a book about her years as a Supreme?
    Are there any Motown Stars, who after leaving Motown, had similar fates?
    Stardom is a temporary security.

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    It may be the wrong word to say that Flo "conceived" the name. She was given a list of names by Motown and from them, she picked the name Supremes.

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    Thank you for the information. Who conceived the name and wrote it, prior to Ms.Ballard randomly picking it?

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    Either Berry or Janie Bradford or both of them together.

    Someone else here will probably know this, but I don't think Motown ever registered the name until the seventies when Mary Wilson was trying to get ownership of the name.

    Maybe it was written into her settlement when leaving that she could not use the Supreme name. Again, someone here probably knows the facts better than I do

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNSUN View Post
    It was Florence Ballard who conceived the name of the group, "The Supremes".
    Does there exist a contract of Motown paying Florence for the conception of the group name, "The Supremes"?
    Did she legally sign away the copyright group name "The Supremes" to Motown?
    Florence Ballard was prohibited by a legal contract from advertising herself as a former member of "The Supremes". This legal contract most likely hurt her self esteem and self promotion efforts.
    Being that Ms. Ballard had psychological issues related to the intimate trauma that she suffered, should Motown have amended this group name usage contract, as an aid in her emotional rehabilitation and as an opportunity for her to properly promote herself, as a singer and an entertainer; enabling Ms. Ballard to provide for herself, her family and her children?
    I think Ms.Ballard's comedic talent and vocal power could have succeeded for her on Broadway- such as the lead in "Ain't Misbehaven"- The Broadway Musical.
    Ms. Ballard had audience enthusiasm going for her, just as well as the other fellow members of The Supremes.
    Was Ms.Ballard prohibited from writing a book about her years as a Supreme?
    Are there any Motown Stars, who after leaving Motown, had similar fates?
    Stardom is a temporary security.
    1. Florence didn’t conceive the name, she merely chose it from a list that was given to her by Jamie Bradford, Who, as a Motown employee, on company time, provided the name as Motown intellectual property. This is how Barry Gordy felt he own the name. I don’t think she ever legally signed away the rights to the name because she never had them to begin with.

    2. Florence agreed to not use the names of creams in promoting herself as a solo at Florence agreed to not use the names of creams in promoting herself as a solo act. It was a rotten thing to do, But she and tommi were not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer, and her attorney was only out to get as much money upfront as possible that he could steal right away so he didn’t care about her at all.

    Motown was trying to prevent Flo from using the name in negative ways, but her atty could have negotiated a “no disparage clause” while still allowing her the use of the name. Flo had the power here and threw it away.

    3. In my opinion there’s nothing to suggest that Florence had to be a Broadway star or any kind of solo star. I loved her desperately and think she was a gigantic asset to the group and I never got over her leaving 53 years later I’m still not over it, but that being said there’s a lot more to starring in a Broadway show than having a couple clips in a nightclub act and singing strong harmony. If you listen to all of her solo work, you will hear a mediocre vocalist with a powerful, but not engaging voice and almost no technique. There is a reason why producers didn’t give her a lead sheets at LuPine, Motown, or after she left the group. There are thousands of singers with voices as good as Florence, diana and Mary. It’s all the extras that makes a star, and flow had charm to spare, but even that was without the pressure of having to headline a group. I don’t think she had the goods to be much of a solo star at all, but once Florence left the group, there was no reason ever to look at the other two. I’m not knocking about them, as they were just fine, it’s just that I think most people thought that they were dullards. Everyone I grew up with did. Literally everyone.

    4. It would’ve been nice if Motown looked after her after she left the group but there was so much animosity and so much going on and Motown was exploding and Barry Gordy was being pulled in 1000 directions at once, sadly, I doubt that anybody had the time to think about Florence’s mental condition.

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    After all the defiance, they were glad to get Florence off their hands....since she was at the time unpredictable, and a liability...not allowing her to use the groups name may have been a wise choice...why would Motown allow risking the company or group name linked to potential unprofessionalism? She could have been billed/promoted as "Detroit Singing Star"...BG/Motown did not own the city name...
    Too late for this...but perhaps if the vocal career didn't immediately take off, Game shows, guest cameo appearances on sit com's may have bought her some time and abled her to remain in the entertainment field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    1. Florence didn’t conceive the name, she merely chose it from a list that was given to her by Jamie Bradford, Who, as a Motown employee, on company time, provided the name as Motown intellectual property. This is how Barry Gordy felt he own the name. I don’t think she ever legally signed away the rights to the name because she never had them to begin with.

    2. Florence agreed to not use the names of creams in promoting herself as a solo at Florence agreed to not use the names of creams in promoting herself as a solo act. It was a rotten thing to do, But she and tommi were not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer, and her attorney was only out to get as much money upfront as possible that he could steal right away so he didn’t care about her at all.

    Motown was trying to prevent Flo from using the name in negative ways, but her atty could have negotiated a “no disparage clause” while still allowing her the use of the name. Flo had the power here and threw it away.

    3. In my opinion there’s nothing to suggest that Florence had to be a Broadway star or any kind of solo star. I loved her desperately and think she was a gigantic asset to the group and I never got over her leaving 53 years later I’m still not over it, but that being said there’s a lot more to starring in a Broadway show than having a couple clips in a nightclub act and singing strong harmony. If you listen to all of her solo work, you will hear a mediocre vocalist with a powerful, but not engaging voice and almost no technique. There is a reason why producers didn’t give her a lead sheets at LuPine, Motown, or after she left the group. There are thousands of singers with voices as good as Florence, diana and Mary. It’s all the extras that makes a star, and flow had charm to spare, but even that was without the pressure of having to headline a group. I don’t think she had the goods to be much of a solo star at all, but once Florence left the group, there was no reason ever to look at the other two. I’m not knocking about them, as they were just fine, it’s just that I think most people thought that they were dullards. Everyone I grew up with did. Literally everyone.

    4. It would’ve been nice if Motown looked after her after she left the group but there was so much animosity and so much going on and Motown was exploding and Barry Gordy was being pulled in 1000 directions at once, sadly, I doubt that anybody had the time to think about Florence’s mental condition.
    Maniac - totally agree with your thoughts here. The blunt fact is that not every person is destined to be the superstar. But that is also not the only definition of success. The sad thing is that many of the fans tend to think the only way for a Supreme to be a "winner" is if they were the most famous, most rich, sang the most leads, was the frontperson, etc.

    Flo seemed to shine as part of a group where her comic skills could play off of the others. Also from a singing perspective, she worked well in the challenging role of harmonizing. from what we've seen, her key strengths weren't in acting as Mistress of Ceremonies or leading the show. that takes a unique and special skill set. perhaps with a lot of training she could have grown and developed but that's not likely.

    outside of a group setting, she might have found so many other outlets to make herself happy and accomplish success. we know she struggled with a lot of mental issues and of course her family may or may not have encouraged her to explore other avenues for success.

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    I think bottom line ....Motown.... screwed her and them .

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    I think it bares reminding that Diana wasn't exactly a strong vocalist at the beginning of the Supremes' career. Because Berry saw superstar potential in her, her invested more energy into ensuring she had the right vocal coaching and guidance - something neither Florence nor Mary received. It's clear from earlier recordings that Florence had a strong voice with a lot of potential, but by 1968 she hadn't had opportunities in quite some time and was likely not feeling the most confident in her own abilities. I'll also argue that much of the failure in her solo recordings lie in the garbage production. There are several moments in Flo's recordings where her talent shines. Unfortunately, the production on these recordings are just terrible and does no justice to Florence's voice. I believe she could have done a lot better than the material with which she had to work.

    I try to look at everything objectively: the business aspect of dismissing Flo and negotiating her contract, the conflicting emotional committments of Diana and Mary, and Flo's perspective. No matter how you look at it, however, Florence was screwed by Motown in the end. For a company who prided themselves in being a family and for someone who helped almost single-handedly shooting the entire label to world-renowned popularity, Florence was given the cheap, shoddy shaft. Florence's personal choices aside, Motown took advantage of her naiveté and actively sought out to give her the cheapest deal.

    What we cannot really blame Gordy for, however, is how they handled Florence's mental illness. This was years before the Betty Ford Clinic. At that time, mental health was not something people discussed and seeking mental help - especially as a black woman - carried a lot of stigma. It was not considered glamorous and would have ruined the Supremes' image. No one also knew - outside of Diana and Mary - about Florence's rape. It's worth wondering if that would have made a difference had Berry known. The problem is that Florence may not exactly have understood her own distrust and how it may have connected to her past trauma. If Florence didn't understand, no one else could have either, outside of a trained mental health professional. Had she not have been raped, would she have still suffered depression - was she genetically predisposed to depression [[nature), or was it fostered by the events in her life [[nurture), or both? No one will ever know. In any case, depression is a debilitating illness which affects the way in which one's brain functions. Florence's perspective was likely wildly skewed by depression and therefor the expectation for Florence to "get it together" would have been unfair and unrealistic for someone as sick as Florence was.
    Last edited by antceleb12; 12-13-2020 at 03:25 PM.

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    It was truly more of motown's way of making sure Flo didn't do anything to hurt the image of the Supremes. However two years later Berry had washed his hands of the girls but prior to that everyone knew Flo was a Supreme. There were the news articles, the Detroit, parade and being on stag with the ladies [[her visit with Mary in California), just to name a few. Berry Gordy could not claim rights to the PRIMETTES so therefore they were urged to change their name while at Motown. From everything I can see and have heard Flo did not like Berry Gordy and I sense the feelings were mutual. In fact I don't think Flo felt Motown was their best opportunity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antceleb12 View Post
    I think it bares reminding that Diana wasn't exactly a strong vocalist at the beginning of the Supremes' career. Because Berry saw superstar potential in her, her invested more energy into ensuring she had the right vocal coaching and guidance - something neither Florence nor Mary received. It's clear from earlier recordings that Florence had a strong voice with a lot of potential, but by 1968 she hadn't had opportunities in quite some time and was likely not feeling the most confident in her own abilities. I'll also argue that much of the failure in her solo recordings lie in the garbage production. There are several moments in Flo's recordings where her talent shines. Unfortunately, the production on these recordings are just terrible and does no justice to Florence's voice. I believe she could have done a lot better than the material with which she had to work.

    I try to look at everything objectively: the business aspect of dismissing Flo and negotiating her contract, the conflicting emotional committments of Diana and Mary, and Flo's perspective. No matter how you look at it, however, Florence was screwed by Motown in the end. For a company who prided themselves in being a family and for someone who helped almost single-handedly shooting the entire label to world-renowned popularity, Florence was given the cheap, shoddy shaft. Florence's personal choices aside, Motown took advantage of her naiveté and actively sought out to give her the cheapest deal.

    What we cannot really blame Gordy for, however, is how they handled Florence's mental illness. This was years before the Betty Ford Clinic. At that time, mental health was not something people discussed and seeking mental help - especially as a black woman - carried a lot of stigma. It was not considered glamorous and would have ruined the Supremes' image. No one also knew - outside of Diana and Mary - about Florence's rape. It's worth wondering if that would have made a difference had Berry known. The problem is that Florence may not exactly have understood her own distrust and how it may have connected to her past trauma. If Florence didn't understand, no one else could have either, outside of a trained mental health professional. Had she not have been raped, would she have still suffered depression - was she genetically predisposed to depression [[nature), or was it fostered by the events in her life [[nurture), or both? No one will ever know. In any case, depression is a debilitating illness which affects the way in which one's brain functions. Florence's perspective was likely wildly skewed by depression and therefor the expectation for Florence to "get it together" would have been unfair and unrealistic for someone as sick as Florence was.
    I disagree with you percent. Diana was a very gifted vocalist and you can hear that on meet the Supremes she handles several styles of music perfectly. She wasn’t the best singer yet, and needed work honing her instrument, but she certainly had great interpretive skills as early as 16. She may be singing through her nose, but she brings a lot of life into hes 17 and who’s loving you and those DJ shows etc. That’s one of the reasons why I love that album so much because you can hear those wonderful skills that she soon mastered into an iconic career. Flo, never learned to sell a lyric - she bombasts her way through Buttered Popcorn, but People is pedestrian at best. All of her ABC work is the same: sHe sings the notes but does nothing with them or the lyrics. Even Mary was better. Why do you think no one at Lupine, Motown or post Motown showed any interest in Flo. HDH, Fuqua, Mickey Stevenson, Clarence Paul and others all knew what Flo could do And not one of them offered her a lead sheet after she left Motown and they have a Motown as well. When you listen to Brian Holland talk about recording where did our love go, who won the Diana to sing it differently than she wanted to and right on the spot she was able to come up with a completely different approach to the song - that is a gifted vocalize When you listen to Brian Holland talk about recording where did our love go, who won the Diana to sing it differently than she wanted to and right on the spot she was able to come up with a completely different approach to the song that is a gifted vocalist and all 3 sing her interpretive praises along with. MAny other producers.

    I can’t believe you are suggesting that Flo almost single-handedly shot Motown into the stratosphere. She was adorable and added a lot to their sound, but like Smokey said, “I think the story of the Supremes would’ve been essentially the same with diana and any two girls. “ I’m not diminishing the wonderfulness of Mary and Florence because they were stupendous, but 90% of the success, talent-wise, was Diana. I do not believe the company that made Florence an international superstar screwed her. Terrible circumstances came her way and she dealt with them as well as she could. No record label on this planet would’ve handled the group any differently when they hit the stratosphere so quickly. when you have a cash cow you keep feeding it hey and if someone gets in the way they are removed and that’s just how the entertainment business is and that’s how every business is. I’m not saying I like it. I have never gotten over seeing Cindy in the silver dress doing reflections. No one asked me if it was OK for Florence to leave the group and it still isn’t OK with me. And just about everything I’ve ever read about Berry Gordy suggests he’s quite an asshole: manipulative greedy narcissistic sociopathic… Some or all may apply. But the business is a business having people sit down and negotiate a sit down and negotiate to get the best deal. If Florence had an honest attorney working on her behalf, the deal would never have come down like that but that is on Florence not on Motown. Anyone with half a brain would have demanded an accounting I’m going back to the day where did our love go was released. Had that occurred, I believe Florence would’ve walked away with a few million. But I blame that on flow and her attorney not on Motown. However I do want to acknowledge the fact that I think they screwed over everybody financially and no one more than diana ross. I would love to see the deposit slip from MCA to diana ross for $1 million for the wiz. I guarantee you she never saw a penny of that money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I disagree with you percent. Diana was a very gifted vocalist and you can hear that on meet the Supremes she handles several styles of music perfectly. She wasn’t the best singer yet, and needed work honing her instrument, but she certainly had great interpretive skills as early as 16. She may be singing through her nose, but she brings a lot of life into hes 17 and who’s loving you and those DJ shows etc. That’s one of the reasons why I love that album so much because you can hear those wonderful skills that she soon mastered into an iconic career. Flo, never learned to sell a lyric - she bombasts her way through Buttered Popcorn, but People is pedestrian at best. All of her ABC work is the same: sHe sings the notes but does nothing with them or the lyrics. Even Mary was better. Why do you think no one at Lupine, Motown or post Motown showed any interest in Flo. HDH, Fuqua, Mickey Stevenson, Clarence Paul and others all knew what Flo could do And not one of them offered her a lead sheet after she left Motown and they have a Motown as well. When you listen to Brian Holland talk about recording where did our love go, who won the Diana to sing it differently than she wanted to and right on the spot she was able to come up with a completely different approach to the song - that is a gifted vocalize When you listen to Brian Holland talk about recording where did our love go, who won the Diana to sing it differently than she wanted to and right on the spot she was able to come up with a completely different approach to the song that is a gifted vocalist and all 3 sing her interpretive praises along with. MAny other producers.
    I think you're taking this a bit too seriously. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. I believe Diana certainly matured and had promise as a young singer, and never did I suggest she was a BAD singer, but that she wasn't a STRONG singer in the beginning. And we can agree or disagree about Florence's strengths as well until the cow comes home. It's all been rehashed over and over again. We need to move on and stop pinning each of the Supremes' vocal capabilities against each other and dissecting each other's opinions. It makes no difference on anyone's opinions and we can all go in circles about this all day long.

    I can’t believe you are suggesting that Flo almost single-handedly shot Motown into the stratosphere.
    That is absolutely not at all what I said. I said she HELPED shoot Motown's popularity into international acclaim; as part of the Motown TEAM and as part of the SUPREMES. They were the trailblazers that put Motown on the map. Anyone who was part of that group should have gotten a better exit deal than she got.

    I’m not diminishing the wonderfulness of Mary and Florence because they were stupendous, but 90% of the success, talent-wise, was Diana.
    Again, another point we can agree to disagree on, and its straying away a bit from the topic at hand.

    I do not believe the company that made Florence an international superstar screwed her.
    You don't believe the deal they made to get Florence out of Motown screwed her? The fact that she was paid a lump sum of money and never received a dime of royalties after the fact? The fact that she was not allowed to use the name Supremes in promoting her work? Regardless of whether or not she should have reviewed the deal further, she got the shaft in that deal. Nothing about that deal was meant to benefit Florence.

    Terrible circumstances came her way and she dealt with them as well as she could. No record label on this planet would’ve handled the group any differently when they hit the stratosphere so quickly. when you have a cash cow you keep feeding it hey and if someone gets in the way they are removed and that’s just how the entertainment business is and that’s how every business is. I’m not saying I like it.
    I did already address that Motown could not be blamed for handling Florence's mental illness. That was the point of my final paragraph.

    Anyone with half a brain would have demanded an accounting I’m going back to the day where did our love go was released. Had that occurred, I believe Florence would’ve walked away with a few million. But I blame that on flow and her attorney not on Motown.
    I strongly disagree with this. Why should have Florence known that? Why would anyone with "half a brain" thought of that? You need to put yourself in the place of these girls who essentially came straight from the projects and were catapulted to fame without an iota of education in accounting or finances. And especially at that time, most artists didn't look after their own finances. I don't for a second believe that Florence was lazy or ignorant in not asking about their finances. Relatively few of them did.

    However I do want to acknowledge the fact that I think they screwed over everybody financially and no one more than diana ross. I would love to see the deposit slip from MCA to diana ross for $1 million for the wiz. I guarantee you she never saw a penny of that money.
    So they screwed Diana, but not Florence? I think it's safe to say that MANY artists at Motown were screwed in some way or another.
    Last edited by antceleb12; 12-13-2020 at 09:12 PM.

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    The Flo Situation reminds me of friends of mine over the years who have gotten divorces who were just angry and fed up and frustrated and said oh I just don’t want anything I just want out blah blah blah blah and regretted it later. I even helped negotiate a separation that was very one-sided for my best friend because there’s a lot wife was a liar and a cheat and broke his heart and he walked around chain-smoking and drinking beer for two years and staring into space. He recovered, and by the time she realized she walked away with much less than she could have it was too late. Do I feel bad? I sleep like a baby every night while she continues to devil him through their children 22 years later. Even the attorney told her that this was a terrible deal, but I knew she would take it. Flo’s atty just wanted quick cash up front so he could rob them and move on. Sadly, She agreed to it and later realized it stunk but it was too late. That’s the world. If it were up to me, I would’ve given Florence six months off except for television appearances and maybe recording, and used Marlene Barrow on the road. That way Florence could’ve rested, got into treatment for her drinking if she need to, see a shrink and have ample time to get her self together. If she still wasn’t OK then, I would’ve brought in Cindy, reluctantly. I think Gordy was sending a message: if I can fire supreme I can fire anyone!

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    I said Motown screwed everyone financially but they screwed diana ross the most.

    i’ll tell you why I think Florence should’ve demanded an accountant and that anyone with half a brain would have: they knew they were selling millions and millions of records worldwide. They knew how much they were earning that club gigs and how much a four dollar and 50 Cent average ticket in an 18,000 seat arena would make in one night. Certainly someone there passed arithmetic - if you played 50 one nighters per year, netting 50-80k per night, your third after expenses and taxes would easily be 10k - times 50 is 500k per year. Add royalties, tv appearance fees. And you have millions in your personal. Motown account. Just like diana ross, who had a couple hundred thousand dollars in 1980 after touring incessantly for three years And getting $1 million for the wiz. Where did it go? To BG - that’s where. They all trusted him. Except Gladys. Look at Stevie - he got over $1 million handed over to him when he turned 21 because he had a trustee looking things over for him. And he didn’t earn anywhere near the money the Supremes did. It’s a shame how it turned out. After over a decade with the Temptations, Dennis Edwards did not have enough money to go to the dentist in 1980 and called the union to ask if he had enough money in his account to go to the dentist because he had a tooth that needed to be pulled. They all got robbed, Ross just had more to rob. It was obvious to Gene Simmons and he didn’t even work at Motown!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I said Motown screwed everyone financially but they screwed diana ross the most.

    i’ll tell you why I think Florence should’ve demanded an accountant and that anyone with half a brain would have: they knew they were selling millions and millions of records worldwide. They knew how much they were earning that club gigs and how much a four dollar and 50 Cent average ticket in an 18,000 seat arena would make in one night. Certainly someone there passed arithmetic - if you played 50 one nighters per year, netting 50-80k per night, your third after expenses and taxes would easily be 10k - times 50 is 500k per year. Add royalties, tv appearance fees. And you have millions in your personal. Motown account. Just like diana ross, who had a couple hundred thousand dollars in 1980 after touring incessantly for three years And getting $1 million for the wiz. Where did it go? To BG - that’s where. They all trusted him. Except Gladys. Look at Stevie - he got over $1 million handed over to him when he turned 21 because he had a trustee looking things over for him. And he didn’t earn anywhere near the money the Supremes did. It’s a shame how it turned out. After over a decade with the Temptations, Dennis Edwards did not have enough money to go to the dentist in 1980 and called the union to ask if he had enough money in his account to go to the dentist because he had a tooth that needed to be pulled. They all got robbed, Ross just had more to rob. It was obvious to Gene Simmons and he didn’t even work at Motown!
    I will say you hit the nail on the head. Its a shame but I think Diana even realized it a little too late.

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    Name:  9287105d7438b11e2fe870733ba45ed8.jpg
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    Can someone tell me if that is Tommy in the front seat ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post
    Name:  9287105d7438b11e2fe870733ba45ed8.jpg
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    Can someone tell me if that is Tommy in the front seat ?
    Definitely looks like him. Great to see Flo with my idol Godfrey Cambridge!

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    No intended disrespect to the OP or anyone else, but I have to get this off my chest. As a Flo fan it's disheartening to see so many threads [[of the few specifically about her) that are tied to so much negativity. She was so much more than depression, alcoholism, trauma, drama and death, yet when she's brought up, these are the topics that seem to interest fans of the group the most. I recall doing a Flo appreciation thread- I think it was for "Good News", can't remember- and there were probably three responses. Now either I overestimated how many Supremes fans enjoy that cut, or we really do prefer to focus on Florence's negative moments than her positive ones.

    Anyway, I'm going to go through this thread because it is a Flo thread, which is why I clicked on it in case anyone is ready to the pull the trigger on the "you could easily skip a thread you're not interested in" gun. I'm interested because it's Flo, but had a thought in my mind and felt the need to write it out. Again, no disrespect to the OP, who apparently also had a thought and felt the need to write it out, which is also their right to do, same as mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNSUN View Post
    It was Florence Ballard who conceived the name of the group, "The Supremes".
    Does there exist a contract of Motown paying Florence for the conception of the group name, "The Supremes"?
    Did she legally sign away the copyright group name "The Supremes" to Motown?
    Florence Ballard was prohibited by a legal contract from advertising herself as a former member of "The Supremes". This legal contract most likely hurt her self esteem and self promotion efforts.
    Being that Ms. Ballard had psychological issues related to the intimate trauma that she suffered, should Motown have amended this group name usage contract, as an aid in her emotional rehabilitation and as an opportunity for her to properly promote herself, as a singer and an entertainer; enabling Ms. Ballard to provide for herself, her family and her children?
    I think Ms.Ballard's comedic talent and vocal power could have succeeded for her on Broadway- such as the lead in "Ain't Misbehaven"- The Broadway Musical.
    Ms. Ballard had audience enthusiasm going for her, just as well as the other fellow members of The Supremes.
    Was Ms.Ballard prohibited from writing a book about her years as a Supreme?
    Are there any Motown Stars, who after leaving Motown, had similar fates?
    Stardom is a temporary security.
    You have to put the Supremes in the time period in which they were successful. It was the 1960s. Psych treatment and alcohol treatment were not a typical part of the lives of entertainers, especially Black ones. Florence was not the only person at Motown with these kinds of issues and I can't recall nary a story about anyone else at the company during the golden age of the label having the company pay this kind of care regarding their issues. I know Martha ended up in a mental health facility- if I remember the story correctly- during the late 60s/early 70s, but don't recall that Motown had a thing to do with that. I think it's unrealistic to expect Motown to have cared after Florence in this way, Supreme or no Supreme.

    One thing Motown always did was give Flo credit for naming the group. Had she, Diana and Mary been abnormal people their age, well versed in business, they may have been able to attain the legal ownership of the name since Motown did not put them together nor did Motown actually choose the name. I recall someone once tried to make a claim that Janie Bradford had more of a claim on the name than Flo did because Janie was the one who presented a list of names to Florence. I called it bunk. A person who suggests names can never be labeled the "namer". That title goes to the person who actually chooses the name, and in this case it was Florence. Would've been interesting to see what direction Flo's Motown lawsuit would have gone in had she focused solely on the name of the group and not terminating the original separation contract, although it appears that too had weight.

    When it comes to Flo and prohibitions regarding the name Supremes, I believe that was only in terms of musical promotion. She would have been forbidden to bill herself as a Supreme. So no marquees with "The Supremes' Flo Ballard" or "Flo Ballard of the Supremes". No singles or albums credited as such either. Even press releases from her publicist could not mention that she was once a Supreme, only allude to the fact that she was once a member of the biggest girl group in the world, but no mention of the group's name. This contract stipulation did not prevent the press from pointing out that she was a former Supreme nor did it prevent her from speaking publicly about anything Supremes related, and thus would not have affected her ability to write a book about her life and time with the group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gman View Post
    After all the defiance, they were glad to get Florence off their hands....since she was at the time unpredictable, and a liability...not allowing her to use the groups name may have been a wise choice...why would Motown allow risking the company or group name linked to potential unprofessionalism? She could have been billed/promoted as "Detroit Singing Star"...BG/Motown did not own the city name...
    Too late for this...but perhaps if the vocal career didn't immediately take off, Game shows, guest cameo appearances on sit com's may have bought her some time and abled her to remain in the entertainment field.
    Not allowing her to capitalize off of her time as a Supreme was punitive, nothing more. Gordy knew what he was doing. He wanted to bury her, and to be fair, she probably had a similar feeling about him. Only difference is that he had the power to do it, she didn't.

    Had all this Supremes stuff occurred today, Flo probably would've been able to parlay the experience into things that kept her in the public eye. Social media could've been a huge tool for her. So many avenues open to entertainers today that just wasn't given much thought back in 1968. As it was, the press did seem to be in her corner. If only her solo work were better. At the time Florence was a major star, but unlike today, when there's so many ways a person can keep their name in the spotlight, back then media was limited and with no music knocking anyone's socks off and then a lengthy break from the industry, Flo was put in the out of sight out of mind category like so many before and after her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antceleb12 View Post
    I think it bares reminding that Diana wasn't exactly a strong vocalist at the beginning of the Supremes' career. Because Berry saw superstar potential in her, her invested more energy into ensuring she had the right vocal coaching and guidance - something neither Florence nor Mary received. It's clear from earlier recordings that Florence had a strong voice with a lot of potential, but by 1968 she hadn't had opportunities in quite some time and was likely not feeling the most confident in her own abilities. I'll also argue that much of the failure in her solo recordings lie in the garbage production. There are several moments in Flo's recordings where her talent shines. Unfortunately, the production on these recordings are just terrible and does no justice to Florence's voice. I believe she could have done a lot better than the material with which she had to work.

    I try to look at everything objectively: the business aspect of dismissing Flo and negotiating her contract, the conflicting emotional committments of Diana and Mary, and Flo's perspective. No matter how you look at it, however, Florence was screwed by Motown in the end. For a company who prided themselves in being a family and for someone who helped almost single-handedly shooting the entire label to world-renowned popularity, Florence was given the cheap, shoddy shaft. Florence's personal choices aside, Motown took advantage of her naiveté and actively sought out to give her the cheapest deal.

    What we cannot really blame Gordy for, however, is how they handled Florence's mental illness. This was years before the Betty Ford Clinic. At that time, mental health was not something people discussed and seeking mental help - especially as a black woman - carried a lot of stigma. It was not considered glamorous and would have ruined the Supremes' image. No one also knew - outside of Diana and Mary - about Florence's rape. It's worth wondering if that would have made a difference had Berry known. The problem is that Florence may not exactly have understood her own distrust and how it may have connected to her past trauma. If Florence didn't understand, no one else could have either, outside of a trained mental health professional. Had she not have been raped, would she have still suffered depression - was she genetically predisposed to depression [[nature), or was it fostered by the events in her life [[nurture), or both? No one will ever know. In any case, depression is a debilitating illness which affects the way in which one's brain functions. Florence's perspective was likely wildly skewed by depression and therefor the expectation for Florence to "get it together" would have been unfair and unrealistic for someone as sick as Florence was.
    Basically agree with most, if not all, of this. Very well done post.

    I can't stress enough how much I feel like ABC was the wrong place for Florence. I think the idea was to go where the money is as opposed to going with the best musical fit. She needed to be somewhere like Stax or Atlantic or Brunswick. I think George Kerr wanted to have Flo in as close to a Supreme, i.e. Diana Ross, style as possible, as opposed to a Linda Jones. He also once said the two of them bumped heads constantly in the studio, which certainly couldn't have made for the best environment for artistic expression for either of them. Couple that with the fact that Flo was pregnant and still drinking, it was really a horrible time for her to be doing anything other than resting at home. The couple of cuts she did with Robert Bateman are superior to most of what she did with Kerr. Her voice sounds better, she seems to connect to the songs better. I wonder what an ABC album might have turned out had she been recording with Bateman from the very beginning. For what it is I enjoy most of the recordings from her only CD release. She still sounds like a lady who can sing and I enjoy her voice. But it is sad that it's the final lasting legacy of her recording career. Fingers crossed that someone taped her final stage performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by antceleb12 View Post
    I

    I strongly disagree with this. Why should have Florence known that? Why would anyone with "half a brain" thought of that? You need to put yourself in the place of these girls who essentially came straight from the projects and were catapulted to fame without an iota of education in accounting or finances. And especially at that time, most artists didn't look after their own finances. I don't for a second believe that Florence was lazy or ignorant in not asking about their finances. Relatively few of them did.
    Agree 100 percent. These girls were young, super young, at a time when most folks their age, especially in the music business, didn't think about the business part of things. They just wanted to sing. This was hands down the majority of Motown and the business in general. If Flo didn't have half a brain, neither did the other two Supremes or most anyone else at Motown and beyond. Mary didn't get accountants involved until the mid 70s and apparently Diana didn't until right before she left. If Flo didn't have half a brain at 20 something, Diana was apparently dumb as hell at 30 something to have waited to ask the question that 20 something Flo was too dumb to ask.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post

    Can someone tell me if that is Tommy in the front seat ?
    Yeah, it's him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Agree 100 percent. These girls were young, super young, at a time when most folks their age, especially in the music business, didn't think about the business part of things. They just wanted to sing. This was hands down the majority of Motown and the business in general. If Flo didn't have half a brain, neither did the other two Supremes or most anyone else at Motown and beyond. Mary didn't get accountants involved until the mid 70s and apparently Diana didn't until right before she left. If Flo didn't have half a brain at 20 something, Diana was apparently dumb as hell at 30 something to have waited to ask the question that 20 something Flo was too dumb to ask.
    Exactly my point. Diana’s situation was muddied by her close, loving relationship with Berry, and she probably trusted him blindly. It stupefies me she was in her mid 30s and didn’t figure it out. Thank goodness for Gene Simmons. She made more money in the one minute it took to sign her name on the RCA deal, then she did in 20 years with Motown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Exactly my point. Diana’s situation was muddied by her close, loving relationship with Berry, and she probably trusted him blindly. It stupefies me she was in her mid 30s and didn’t figure it out. Thank goodness for Gene Simmons. She made more money in the one minute it took to sign her name on the RCA deal, then she did in 20 years with Motown.
    That's really sad. Especially after all the hard work she put in and at one point being hospitalized from exhaustion.

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    It is really remarkable we're having a calm, measured discussion devoid of any drama. Just some peeps chatting.

    Thanks to everyone for making 2020 a little less $hitty by making this a nicer place to come read about the music and the people who made it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I can't stress enough how much I feel like ABC was the wrong place for Florence.
    As easy as 1,2,3????

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    Exactly my point. Diana’s situation was muddied by her close, loving relationship with Berry, and she probably trusted him blindly. It stupefies me she was in her mid 30s and didn’t figure it out. Thank goodness for Gene Simmons. She made more money in the one minute it took to sign her name on the RCA deal, then she did in 20 years with Motown.
    But none of that is stupidity, which is what "half a brain" and "not the sharpest" commonly suggests. Diana did have a very close, affectionate, trusting relationship with Gordy that started when she was 16 years old. Gordy was also skilled in mental manipulation of women. It's not stupid for Diana not to have figured he was robbing her blind. In Flo's situation, while rumor has it that she never trusted Gordy, her situation wasn't "dumb" either, it was naivete. None of these girls had real world experience beyond the projects. College, the workforce, these would have been prime learning ground for them to get certain clues about the way things should be. During these years they were, in the words of a song associated with Diana, living in a brand new world, a fantasy. They were not living the lives of their peers. It's unfair to suggest that any of them were less than intelligent because they didn't see at the time what the rest of us see decades and 40 books and 100 accusations later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    It is really remarkable we're having a calm, measured discussion devoid of any drama. Just some peeps chatting.

    Thanks to everyone for making 2020 a little less $hitty by making this a nicer place to come read about the music and the people who made it.
    What? How dare you make such a shitty claim! You know what Al, you're 1 of the biggest trouble makers in the forum and I for 1 am quite sick of ur shit. Asshole.

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    But for real though, it is refreshing to have these discussions without it being derailed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    As easy as 1,2,3????
    Ha! Nope, wouldn't say that. ABC offered the lady a 50 grand-or was it 20 grand?- signing bonus. That was big money. Hard to tell someone to turn that down. With hindsight I figure that if she had gone somewhere more of a creative fit, she might not have gotten the most money upfront, but in the long run with hit singles and albums and concert dates, she would've made out better in the end. But again this is all hindsight.

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    I have not read more than a sentence or two from all the replies here [[the subject has been completely exhausted 7,451 times before ) but at this very point in time the subject strikes one has having so many parallels to the 'djt won the election' stupidity. It seems that once any conspiracy theory is launched there will populations willing to go full-on tin foil hat forevermore!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Ha! Nope, wouldn't say that. ABC offered the lady a 50 grand-or was it 20 grand?- signing bonus. That was big money. Hard to tell someone to turn that down. With hindsight I figure that if she had gone somewhere more of a creative fit, she might not have gotten the most money upfront, but in the long run with hit singles and albums and concert dates, she would've made out better in the end. But again this is all hindsight.
    In her first book, Mary wrote that ABC paid Flo a $15,000 advance on a two-year contract.

    I wonder if there were any other solo offers for Flo? I haven't read of any. It could have been interesting if say, Stax, Scepter, or Atlantic came to the table. But at each of those, she might have to step in line behind the other female singers they had on the roster. On the other hand, ABC did have r&b/soul success with Ray Charles, the Impressions, and B.B. King, so that combined with the $$ might have made Flo and Tommy sign with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    It is really remarkable we're having a calm, measured discussion devoid of any drama. Just some peeps chatting.

    Thanks to everyone for making 2020 a little less $hitty by making this a nicer place to come read about the music and the people who made it.
    You may have spoken too soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    In her first book, Mary wrote that ABC paid Flo a $15,000 advance on a two-year contract.

    I wonder if there were any other solo offers for Flo? I haven't read of any. It could have been interesting if say, Stax, Scepter, or Atlantic came to the table. But at each of those, she might have to step in line behind the other female singers they had on the roster. On the other hand, ABC did have r&b/soul success with Ray Charles, the Impressions, and B.B. King, so that combined with the $$ might have made Flo and Tommy sign with them.
    15 grand, that sounds more familiar. I've always assumed that Flo went with the first label she and Tommy approached as I also have not read of any other labels being associated with her. Her contract with Motown was settled in February and within weeks, maybe days, she was signed to ABC. Doesn't sound like she had time to approach other labels. Bad fit or not, for someone most famous as one third of a trio who was mostly known for singing backup, to secure a solo deal so quickly, and with a major label, is some feat.

    Would've loved to hear Flo paired with some stuff at Atlantic, but no woman had a real chance at Atlantic at this point as it was Queen Ree's house.

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    jumping in a bit late on this thread.

    Flo's story is certainly an unfortunate one. She contributed much to the original lineup and their three personalities really helped create something unique.

    I don't completely agree with that old quote that Diane Ross would have still become DIANA ROSS had she been paired with any two girls. while it was certainly possible, the overall Supremes' unit is what created the sensation. they were all very strong entertainers, they were good singers, they had amazing songs, their visual packaging was totally special and unique and they had the added bonus of DR and her galvanizing stage persona. Take any one of these elements out and the story changes considerably. it's not that greatness still couldn't have happened. but it most definitely wouldn't have been assured.

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    in regards to the terms of Flo's departure, i don't fault motown at all. Fans too often look at the terms of her exit from a sentimental POV. sorry folks - but it's business. Motown was looking after their own interests. Flo should have done the same.

    there is no reason to assume that motown should simply turn over their intellectual property of the name "the supremes." Coca Cola certainly doesn't. McDonald's certainly doesn't. Look at all the digital and downloadable videos of tv show and movies that aren't free - that you have to subscribe them.

    Motown was a record label that was in business to profit off of the sales and promotion of musical acts. in 1967 the name "The Supremes" was second maybe only to the name The Beatles in terms of value. To relinquish any ownership or usage of that name would be idiotic.

    If Flo wanted to use the name she should have 1) stayed in the group or 2) negotiated it. she did neither so while unfortunate, it's perfectly reasonable.

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    A commendable lawyer would have put this simple clause in the contract. "I will continue to advertise myself in show business as Florence Ballard, formerly of The Supremes." Was this gesture too much to ask of Motown?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNSUN View Post
    A commendable lawyer would have put this simple clause in the contract. "I will continue to advertise myself in show business as Florence Ballard, formerly of The Supremes." Was this gesture too much to ask of Motown?
    i agree with you - a good lawyer could and should have asked for it. frankly anything is negotiable. motown might have pushed back some or at least worked on narrowing the usage as much as possible. again - it was their intellectual property, not Flo's.

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    But, as Florence herself stated on The Tapes, "I didn't read the contracts".

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    Billing yourself as xyz formerly of the [[insert group name) is not a positive thing. It labels you as a has been right out of the gate. Now if a news article or magazine feature says that, that’s a different story. It’s been said for years that the world fell in love with 3 young ladies, and everyone knows their names. So it should not have been a road block or a negative, that Florence couldn’t bill herself like that. I always hear about Mary or Flo not given the chance to work on their vocals. Outside of a busy schedule, what prevented Mary or Flo from working with a vocal coach?

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    The only time anyone worked with their vocals was if they did a lead which was far and few. Mary did start working with a vocal coach once they moved to LA.
    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    Billing yourself as xyz formerly of the [[insert group name) is not a positive thing. It labels you as a has been right out of the gate. Now if a news article or magazine feature says that, that’s a different story. It’s been said for years that the world fell in love with 3 young ladies, and everyone knows their names. So it should not have been a road block or a negative, that Florence couldn’t bill herself like that. I always hear about Mary or Flo not given the chance to work on their vocals. Outside of a busy schedule, what prevented Mary or Flo from working with a vocal coach?

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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    Billing yourself as xyz formerly of the [[insert group name) is not a positive thing. It labels you as a has been right out of the gate. Now if a news article or magazine feature says that, that’s a different story. It’s been said for years that the world fell in love with 3 young ladies, and everyone knows their names. So it should not have been a road block or a negative, that Florence couldn’t bill herself like that. I always hear about Mary or Flo not given the chance to work on their vocals. Outside of a busy schedule, what prevented Mary or Flo from working with a vocal coach?
    She still got gigs, and once hooking up with a major agency, the performance venues only got better. So ultimately she didn't need to bill herself this way. However, the wording of "promotion" might extend to things like using the Supremes name to get a gig or any other type of work. Would it prevent her from doing a Supremes medley or something on stage? I don't know. But I find it difficult to believe that a concertgoer in 1968 would've seen "Flo Ballard of the Supremes" [[not formerly) or "The Supremes' Flo Ballard" and thought "has been" when she was just with the group six or so months before. Ten years later, maybe. Not less than a year. And I imagine for a first go at it solo, any little thing might have helped.

    I've always opined that Flo's response to not being able to use the name, which if I recall correctly was dismissive, was her believing she didn't need to use it. She's 24, talented, successful, probably looked at the road ahead as being bright and full of opportunities to succeed on her own. Not a stretch to think she wouldn't see having to use the name might aid her early quest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    You may have spoken too soon.
    uh oh. Will "RantRant79" be coming soon???
    Still pleasant as of this post... let's make it a long winning streak...

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    Quote Originally Posted by khansperac View Post
    Outside of a busy schedule, what prevented Mary or Flo from working with a vocal coach?
    You answered it right there: a busy schedule. The only one who got vocal work out on the road was Diana, and there's no reason to believe she requested it either, so without the company dime [[and company, i.e. Gordy, mandate) she may not have gotten it either. What she did have was the lead singing hours that it takes to hone and perfect her instrument, with or without formal training. Flo and Mary did not have it, and in many ways it shows. Diana's vocal progression over the years is incredibly obvious. Flo and Mary's intermittent lead work, IMO, is hit and miss. Mary doesn't sound to me as really coming into her own as a vocalist until the 70s, after she had more studio and stage lead singing opportunities, and apparently, as BG points out, after she also started working with a coach. Raw, natural talent has to be cultivated. Diana's was, Flo and Mary's were not. However, their talent at harmonizing was cultivated and it shows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    uh oh. Will "RantRant79" be coming soon???
    Still pleasant as of this post... let's make it a long winning streak...
    Lol Nope. You were right that the thread was devoid of the usual derailment that we would have seen in the past. I certainly don't want to be a party to things going left, so I'm learning to roll my eyes and keep scrolling. My mistake was unblocking the post of someone blocked because I'm a glutton for punishment. So I ended up getting what I deserved, like the rest of the Trumpers.

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    the legal limitations around billing herself as a Sup would most likely be restricted to official press releases from ABC, official advertisements for her releases and stage performances. They certainly couldn't expect that it would never appear in an article written about her. So a journalist could use it if they wanted.

    But that journalist would need to know this information. they would have to have researched it to find this out or else be told it somehow from someone. without the press releases from ABC to draw attention to a release or performance, odds are the general press wouldn't have bothered looking into the history of the performer.

    Detroit press would certainly have recognized her name and could have provided some push on things. But of course Motown was right there and if the local press really got all over Flo, there could have been some gumbling at them by Motown's press team.

    I also heard though that the Detroit press/newspapers were on strike around the time that Flo's first single was released. if that is true, then she lost out on valuable hometown promotion around her debut. Detroit was big enough that had they jumped on it, there MIGHT have been some activity as other cities pick up on it

    of course all of this assuming her music was good. her debut single frankly sucks. the entire first lp only had a couple of tracks that were decent. but even they weren't anything all that wonderful. Nothing she recorded at ABC was a Top 10 single. perhaps one or two might have crept into top 40 but that's a big MAYBE

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    So I ended up getting what I deserved, like the rest of the Trumpers.
    Lol! It was on this very little ole website I was told there would be a red wave!!!

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    i wouldlove to see the couple of solo performances and two interviews she did with local detroit tv shows after she left the group sadly they seem to have been wiped although there must be a transcript or fan audio cassette recording of one interview as Tarreborelli draws on quotes from it on his second Diana biography

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    You answered it right there: a busy schedule. The only one who got vocal work out on the road was Diana, and there's no reason to believe she requested it either, so without the company dime [[and company, i.e. Gordy, mandate) she may not have gotten it either. What she did have was the lead singing hours that it takes to hone and perfect her instrument, with or without formal training.
    RanRan, I would say Diana was not getting any vocal coaching. If she was, it wasn't very good. Her lack of training shows up in the live shows when you start hearing that hiccup in her voice as she is pulling in air. Based on the changes in her voice, I would say that she eventually did have a voice coach as her lyrical lines became longer and she supported the notes in a stronger way. The placement of the upper notes was better, and stronger so they didn't sound so nasal and pushed. And, she would have had to learn to sing correctly or her voice would have given out on her.

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