Motown 25 question

[BobbyC]

Jim aka--thank you. i saw Dreamgirl the same way. I thought Diana came off as almost superhumanly driven, a little selfish--but I don't recall reading anything where she went out of her way to be nasty to anybody, especially not Florence. I think F's defeatist personality was like dealing with a space alien to a person with DR's crazy drive and determination. DR was not going to let anybody destroy what she was working towards. There is a very telling story in Tarrorborelli's last DR book, where FB didn't show up for a gig, which she had done before, and DR just collapsed on the floor, sobbing "Why is she doing this to us?" DR just couldn't fathom that kind of self-sabotage and it was hurting all of them. DR worked herself to the point of exhaustion, lost a dangerous amount of weight in doing so, and obviously was feeling the weight of the world on her tiny shoulders and here was Florence just not showing up. That was not going to work. Cindy once said that when FB was fired, Berry knew the group was really going to hit the big time and there was no time to deal with the problems FB was presenting.That's just life even in show business. If I didn't bother coming into work, or showing up drunk, I'd get fired and nobody would be running around saying that someone else sabotaged me.

[sup_fan]

Agreed, but I was referring to what happened at about 5:37.

gotcha - and i had never noticed her motioning before. to be honest, i can't really say one way or the other. i don't want to just assume that she WOULDN'T toss the lead back over to diana. and i don't know at what point she usurped the lead. if mary was only singing a line or so while Diana was out, ok then that makes sense to "toss" it back. But if she had been singing for a couple minutes i'm not sure why she would. again, don't know and can't tell.

[reese]

gotcha - and i had never noticed her motioning before. to be honest, i can't really say one way or the other. i don't want to just assume that she WOULDN'T toss the lead back over to diana. and i don't know at what point she usurped the lead. if mary was only singing a line or so while Diana was out, ok then that makes sense to "toss" it back. But if she had been singing for a couple minutes i'm not sure why she would. again, don't know and can't tell.

Looking at the tape, it seems as if Diana stops singing after the line "...I made a big mistake, honey. I said goodbye."

At that point is where I believe Diana may have forgotten the words and Mary jumped in. The other lines in the bridge "Ever since that day, all I want to do is cry," aren't heard at all and the next thing we see is DMC standing side by side, Diana introducing them, and Mary starting the final verse "I long for you, every night..."

[RanRan79]

I think someone on here said earlier that none of us were there so none of us know exactly what went down between them. It's a shame Flo is not around to give the other side of the story. Diana was somewhat cordial after Diana left the Supremes I believe. I can even remember seeing pics and stories of Diana attending solo performances of Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong after the Supremes final exit. Now cordial may be a strong word for some but at least there were no hand pulling or shoving. I Remember Diana saying in her book that the behind the back had turned to in front of her face during her final year with the girls. I still say that most of this breakdown happen from the time of Mary's book to Motown 25 or at least that's what broke the camel's back. Also, I remember Diana being pissed over Mary writing about Flo being raped. I Still find it odd that through all this crap that Mary would want a reunion and say its all up to Diana. Also, as far as the stories from Tony Turner, none of those come close to reality.

Yeah, the book appears to be the point where the relationship became "irreparable". Even after Motown 25, and the Motown Apollo event, Diana and Mary got together for dinner with Mr. Ross. For either of them to move past the events of the night of the reunion appears to be indicative of their relationship for a long time. They each do things that piss the other off, but neither ever really addresses it and instead they keep their distance for awhile until something inside of them feels the need to connect, and then they do. That is until the book. At that point I think Diana felt like Mary had crossed a line that couldn't be undone, and I don't blame her.

I still feel very strongly that in order for any description of RTL to have taken place as a reunion between these two women, they needed to have a serious heart to heart. Had Diana called Mary up and said she has a suite at the X hotel for the two of them to have a very private conversation, Mary would've been at the suite's door before Diana could finish her statement. Once together, they could've hashed out any and everything that was bothering them: Diana's attention hogging, Mary's book, Diana's "shoving", Mary's inaccuracies, etc. This speaks to a larger issue in society from my POV anyway. So much bitterness and animosity and dismissiveness are allowed to fester because people keep things bottled up. They write books or they distance themselves instead of letting it out and freeing themselves. No doubt in my mind that if Diana and Mary had come together for a private cathartic conversation, RTL may have gone much better. There was no room for RTL to succeed when the two principal players distrusted one another so much, and a lot of that distrust stemmed from their emotional hurting of one another.

The mention of Tony Turner in your post Captain is rather random, but to your point, I think it's been well established in the forum that nothing Tall Tales Turner says can be believed.

[RanRan79]

2. according to Dreamgirl, mary spoke with Cindy on their own and said "tonight we're getting equal share. we're stepping forward with Diana. so watch me and move up with me." Now i'm not criticizing the girls for wanting fair presentment. but to do it behind the scenes like this is not a professional approach. again, why not simply say "when we sing Someday, let's just stand together in a row."

Not until now has it dawned on me Sup that you keep charging that there was a change in choreography. What choreography? There was none. Mary claims that she told Cindy before hand to follow her every move. She points out there had been no rehearsal and "anything could happen". So she told Cindy if Diana steps forward, she and Cindy are to do the same. If you think about it, for a number like this, "Someday We'll Be Together", there's nothing for them to do but stand together and sing. I'd actually bet a couple dollars that there was no direction before the reunion that said "At this point, Diana stands in front of Mary and Cindy". To what purpose?

Let's be real, Diana moved forward because she wanted to, not because she had been instructed to. And if Diana was free to move as she pleased, why wouldn't Mary and Cindy be free to do the same? This was not the Hollywood Palace 1969. It was a reunion of 40 year old women. Diana was still the lead singer, but these were not the old Supremes days and I find it doubtful that anybody in production told them this is how it was to be, Diana in front, them in back. Makes no sense.

[sup_fan]

Not until now has it dawned on me Sup that you keep charging that there was a change in choreography. What choreography? There was none. Mary claims that she told Cindy before hand to follow her every move. She points out there had been no rehearsal and "anything could happen". So she told Cindy if Diana steps forward, she and Cindy are to do the same. If you think about it, for a number like this, "Someday We'll Be Together", there's nothing for them to do but stand together and sing. I'd actually bet a couple dollars that there was no direction before the reunion that said "At this point, Diana stands in front of Mary and Cindy". To what purpose?

Let's be real, Diana moved forward because she wanted to, not because she had been instructed to. And if Diana was free to move as she pleased, why wouldn't Mary and Cindy be free to do the same? This was not the Hollywood Palace 1969. It was a reunion of 40 year old women. Diana was still the lead singer, but these were not the old Supremes days and I find it doubtful that anybody in production told them this is how it was to be, Diana in front, them in back. Makes no sense.

no i agree there wasn't intricate choreography or a dance routine. even with a rehearsal they wouldn't have done anything complex. i'm just using the term as a general description of whatever they would do on stage.

while they wouldn't have had a huge rehearsal, they certainly would have had at least some basic directions of you'll stand here and you'll stand over here. the taping was a multicamera format so they would have been assigned marks to stand at so that the camera angles would work. that's part of my point of the unprofessional nature of the actions. when an actor, singer or performer disregards where they're supposed to be on stage, it causes major problems for the production staff. no viewer wants to just look at an empty stage. and if the performers are all over the place, then the cameras will struggle with capturing the right angles. typically there'll be one or two for a character or performer that is going to move and it'll be trained on them and move/follow them

For Mary to decide backstage that she wasn't going to stick to her mark and to rope Cindy into that in unprofessional.

Typically lead singers are not stationary. that's commonplace in music acts and is hardly unique to diana. or they'll be positioned to the side of the group like in the Temps/Tops battle of the bands. So Diana stepping forward to a typical spot isn't something unusual or different really. lead singers will "work the audience" more and as they're walking around they'll do things on the stage. and part of what we've complained about during the MSS years is that it was too much of a free-for-all situation.

I don't discredit Mary and Cindy with wanting to have an appropriate and shared presence on the stage. there's nothing wrong with that idea. it just should have been stated directly. when they were told their marks, they should have said "oh no - not tonight. i'l be standing here instead"