In & Out Of Love-Live!

[luke]

Never saw this--good band-Diana sooo thin but great muscle def!!, Mary and Cindys mics way down and Mary practically salutes threw whole song!lol--was this in Sweeden or perhaps UK?

[copley]

Do you mean this? I have it on a DVD. Think that it was in Amsterdam.

[carlo]

This was from Live in Sweden. It's also included on the Reflections Definitive Performances DVD.

Diana looks almost horrifying in this clip because she's so thin. If it wasn't for all that padding, she would look like a skeleton. Poor girl. Sometimes when I watch these performances, I think it's nothing short of a miracle that she is still with us. With all of that stress she went through, plus little eating and being so skinny [[pretty much anorexic), it's a miracle she didn't have any severe health issues in the 60's. Looking at her, she looked like she was walking a very fine line. Am I crazy or does anyone else share the same opinion? This is another reason I don't have a lot of respect for Berry Gordy. He claimed to love Diana so much, but he permitted her to work herself literally to the bone. Anyone can clearly see she was being overworked. Even Diana herself pointed out how her shoulders were always so tense. That's why I don't like when people say that Diana got famous because of Berry Gordy and his focus on her. Not true. The lady worked very hard.

[copley]

Cheers Carlo. I knew that I had on some DVD or other but my memory is not as good as it used to be.

[luke]

As I said she sure does look thin here. She is a very talented lady who worked her butt off. According to some sources she got close to the edge at a Boston show with the Supremes and was hospitalized. Yes Berry worked her too hard--actually all three of them as well but Diana got much criticism from him.

[detmotownguy]

With no disrespect to the others, good lord Cindy is looking so fine!

[detmotownguy]

I thought I heard or read that Flo even told Gordy to lay off of Ross. Is my memory correct?

[marv2]

What I don't understand is how is she working harder? As opposed to the others? I mean, looking at that clip and others, all three women are dancing, moving, singing throughout each song. She had more words/lyrics to deliver as the lead singer, but in terms of physical exertion, she does not seem to be doing more than the others. I bet it's pretty hard learning and doing all that choreography for each song while singing at the same time.......

[uptight]

It ain't about the difficulty of the choreography. But they certainly had some synchronized choreography in their show.

For most of the acts at Motown, the management company or the Artist Development team had long-term plans. While The Supremes agreed to work hard, a lot more responsibility was hoisted on Diana's shoulders, with her singing all the lyrics, being the spokesperson for a group, and interacting with audiences night after night. Ross herself admits she was extremely close to anorexia at that time, hating the smell of certain foods that she used to enjoy, for example. I've heard accounts where many of the artists would rest in a hospital bed after a series of exhausting shows.

When Mr. Gordy took on the role of mentor, he was in love with her. She was not in love with him.

Imagine being pushed so hard by your boss with certain promises for the future. You might accept the challenges but develop a love-hate relationship with this mentor along the way.

[theboyfromxtown]

Marv

Why not ask Mary that question. Does she consider it more onerous to be a lead singer or as part of a group.

From my experience, there are huge responsibilities on the lead singer, other than learning a few more words.

[marv2]

Marv

Why not ask Mary that question. Does she consider it more onerous to be a lead singer or as part of a group.

From my experience, there are huge responsibilities on the lead singer, other than learning a few more words.

What huge responsibilities that would cause Diana Ross to exert herself more physically just because she is the lead singer?....and I am not talking about THAT either !

[theboyfromxtown]

Marv

I can think of huge responsibilities - it's not about physical exertion.

Ask Mary whether it's easier now or when she had BG taking care of business.

[marv2]

Marv

I can think of huge responsibilities - it's not about physical exertion.

Ask Mary whether it's easier now or when she had BG taking care of business.

That is what was being referred to above when folks were commenting on how skinny and malnourished Diana Ross looked. That perhaps it was because she was working too hard. The most common result of excessive physical exertion is weight loss. At least that's is the common belief.

[randy_russi]

I think their success took its toll on all three--Florence, Mary, & Diana. Look at film clips and photos of how they became
more and more successful Flo got heavier, Diane got thinner, and Mary seemed to change too in her physical appearnce.
They were on the go all the time and always had to be "on". By the time of this clip Diana was really stressed-out.

[theboyfromxtown]

Stress is surely the culprit. It creeps up on us when we think we can cope.

So I agree with Randy but I also agree with Marv....the combination of those two and probably many other things too.

[carlo]

Let's be clear that my post was meant to say exactly what it says. "Diana worked hard". I wasn't trying to compare how hard she worked to that of Mary or Flo or Cindy. It was just a simple statement. I don't know why everything always has to turn into a debate amongst Supremes fans. I roll my eyes.

[marv2]

Let's be clear that my post was meant to say exactly what it says. "Diana worked hard". I wasn't trying to compare how hard she worked to that of Mary or Flo or Cindy. It was just a simple statement. I don't know why everything always has to turn into a debate amongst Supremes fans. I roll my eyes.

Don't be rolling your eyes.......this is serious stuff! hehehehehehehe!!!

[floyjoy678]

yea i would think diana worked harder than mare and cindy by looking at this clip. im sorry but just standing there, snapping your fingers and waving your arms every now and then is not that stressful and i always felt like mary looked bored on stage during these years. the supremes barely ever had any challenging choreography, the only song i can think of where they had a lot of dance steps was "come see about me".

[theboyfromxtown]

Oh no...[[smile)..you gotta check out "Mother Dear"....that has a fabulous little routine. Watch Flo...she looked as though she found it a struggle but was mighty pleased to get through it. Her smile says it all.

It may look easy being a backing vocalist and it is supposed to look that way but it's not. Vocal arrangements, on-stage dialogue interaction and dance routines can be practised for hours and hours.

In many of the girl groups, each one tends to take on tasks. Booking, travelling, clothes, contracts, accountant, promotion. All if it takes a lot of work which us fans don't see when we see the performance

[luke]

And remember Mary, Flo and Cindy were in a catch 22 too-wanted more leads but not given them and replaced on some songs. In Taborellis last book, Diana complained about Mary and Cindy not working at recording like she was but Berry had the Andantes doing it! That makes a lot of sense!!

[marv2]

yea i would think diana worked harder than mare and cindy by looking at this clip. im sorry but just standing there, snapping your fingers and waving your arms every now and then is not that stressful and i always felt like mary looked bored on stage during these years. the supremes barely ever had any challenging choreography, the only song i can think of where they had a lot of dance steps was "come see about me".

They had to look good in order for the act to look good. Guys were not looking at Diane and going WOW! LOL!

[luke]

Well I sure was lookin at Mary and goin wow!

[westgrandboulevard]

the boyfromxtown

There speaks an undoubted voice of authority. You know what you're talking about.

So......when IS your book on The Velvelettes being published, then....?!

I'm looking forward to hearing who is responsible for what! [[smile...)

[theboyfromxtown]

Millie does promotion
Norma does the financial stuff
Bertha does the history and gets the ladies to the airport
Cal does the rest which includes reminding Bertha the day they have to get to the airport!!
Uniforms are usually 4-way

[westgrandboulevard]

theboyfromxtown

Sounds like good organisation, to keep everything harmonious, and in order, then!

What's the established order with the singing harmonies?

[floyjoy678]

i was a backup singer in a vocal group i know how the deal is, we had to learn harmony, choreography, learning how to stay in sync, all that jazz now granted we only did small shows and did not tour like the supremes but im just saying its not that hard at least for me it wasnt i enjoyed every minute of it.

[captainjames]

I remember when I first got a copy of this I thought it was the Talk of the Town until I paid more attention to the surroundings instead of the ladies singing…….. lol. As far as the ladies go it was a male preference as who you found lovelier. Personally as far as being pretty I always favored Flo and Cindy probably because they had T and A……. LOL.

I remember once Diana announced Mary as the sexy one and Flo responded from the stage, "Thats what you think" !!! However, as I said Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder because all three ladies were lovely in their own way.

On this particular show Diana is thin but I have seen her thinner. However all through her Supreme years Diana was thin and Mary was not much thicker because she could easily slip into Diana costumes with very few alterations.

Last, I will have to agree that all the ladies had a lot on them and it was all rush, snap, bam, do it. However, I feel Diana had more on her from behind the scenes with Mr. Gordy badgering her, rushing from city, interviews and then back to the recording studio, and then back on stage. I am sure at times she probably felt that if the Supremes fell or didn't have a hit record it was her fault. There is even one time mentioned that Flo confronted Mr. Gordy because he was putting too much on her. Of course Diana was hospitalized but was back on stage probably too soon and without a proper recovery.

Professional to the hilt and all smiles on stage but if there was tension in the group it probably carved a hole in whatever friendship was there as well.

[randy_russi]

floyjoy678--I noticed you referred to Mary Wilson as "mare". Never heard that before. Anyway, by the time of this clip
obviously Florence is out and the company is pushing for Diana to be the star--which is when they really no longer
were a group. The other two were supposed to just look like backup singers for Diana.
When Diana was gone, everytime they appeared on TV they were back to being a real group where all three had
an important; significant role.

[marv2]

So, if you dance to the music, don't you know you have to pay the piper!

[marv2]

floyjoy678--I noticed you referred to Mary Wilson as "mare". Never heard that before. Anyway, by the time of this clip
obviously Florence is out and the company is pushing for Diana to be the star--which is when they really no longer
were a group. The other two were supposed to just look like backup singers for Diana.
When Diana was gone, everytime they appeared on TV they were back to being a real group where all three had
an important; significant role.

Great post Randy.

[skooldem1]

When Diana was gone, everytime they appeared on TV they were back to being a real group where all three had
an important; significant role.

I don't agree with that at all. That is a big misconception.

[randy_russi]

Well, as best as I recall all their post-Diana appearances presented them as three equals; not a lead and two backups pushed
way back. They all got equal camera shots too.

[marv2]

Well, as best as I recall all their post-Diana appearances presented them as three equals; not a lead and two backups pushed
way back. They all got equal camera shots too.

They all got to sing lead in parts of the songs many times as well.

[detmotownguy]

Interesting perspectives! But what we do not know and will never is the extent of each ladies' coping abilities with respect to their stress. Seems like keeping a diary helped Mary to at least explore her feelings.

[floyjoy678]

randy i decided to refer to mary as "mare" just like how some people on here like to call diana "diane" as if they know her personally. also think of the supremes first TV appearance with jean on ed sullivan, mary and cindy are standing at least a few feet behind jean for most of "up the ladder to the roof".

[captainjames]

I am with you skooldem1, remember the JLM gowns where Jeans top was purple and Mary and Lynda was pink ? It was obvious Jean was being singled out. Sometimes Mary would wear Diana's gown which was fine since money may have been an issue but when new gowns were made different for Jean that was a statement being made.

I don't agree with that at all. That is a big misconception.

[motown4ever]

They all got to sing lead in parts of the songs many times as well.

I've listened to some of those post Diana Supreme and having all three sing lead was not always a good thing on record and tv shows.

[rod_rick]

I always thought sharing the lead every now and then with an establish group like the supremes made it more appealing and exciting. The minimal leads were handled well by Mary and Cindy. If they would had done that early on, while Florence was in the group, Flo might still be around, imo.

[captainjames]

Persoanlly from what I know and from what I have seen written, I really don't think singing lead was that high on Flo's register. Flo had other comcerns.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I don't know why The Supremes should have been different from The Miracles,Vandellas, etc in regard to the lead singer being front and center;
and with The Marvelettes, when Gladys was the lead,she was out front, and
the same was true when Wanda took over,even Michael out front with The J5, or Gladys Knight with the Pips,Levi with the Tops;
where was it written that The Supremes were supposed to differ?

[marv2]

I don't know why The Supremes should have been different from The Miracles,Vandellas, etc in regard to the lead singer being front and center;
and with The Marvelettes, when Gladys was the lead,she was out front, and
the same was true when Wanda took over,even Michael out front with The J5, or Gladys Knight with the Pips,Levi with the Tops;
where was it written that The Supremes were supposed to differ?

Ain't nobody said that they were suppose to be different, but they were! They started out with all doing leads. I don't believe that can be said all those other groups you just mentioned!

[marv2]

Persoanlly from what I know and from what I have seen written, I really don't think singing lead was that high on Flo's register. Flo had other comcerns.

I don't know what you read, but Florence did want to sing more leads. Mary wanted to sing more leads.

[uptight]

I'm sure they wanted back their one solo spot in the act, but I don't think Flo and Mary wanted to do much more than that. When it was management's decision to have Ross as the lead, it wasn't necessarily about who sang best. She is so laser-focused in her work, the effects of stress is clear in some of The Supremes' video clips and some photographs. The stakes kept getting higher and higher for them.

[rod_rick]

I don't know why The Supremes should have been different from The Miracles,Vandellas, etc in regard to the lead singer being front and center;
and with The Marvelettes, when Gladys was the lead,she was out front, and
the same was true when Wanda took over,even Michael out front with The J5, or Gladys Knight with the Pips,Levi with the Tops;
where was it written that The Supremes were supposed to differ?

The Supremes started out fuctioning as a group. They turned into a lead and two backup singers. That was the real problem. It was primarily what Diana and Berry said and Florence, Mary and later Cindy be damned. Just think if they had really worked together as a team when it came to the group, wow the possibilities

[randy_russi]

Ok I follow you on what you said, floyjoy 678, but Mary never referred to herself as "mare" and Diana always called herself
Diane--group intro. on "At The Copa" lp. When we met her as part of the Motortown Revue in '62 everyone called her
Diane.
Anyway, I don't remember Jean wearing a different color than Mary and Cindy, but I do remember TV appearances of
the Supremes with Diana, Mary, & Florence standing in one line or even gathered around one mic. As time went on
you saw many TV appearances where they start off together, but Diana leaves to the foreground leaving them back
in the far back.
Anyway, yes, lead singers always get more camera shots, etc. with any group.

[randy_russi]

Also, when Diana left and Jean joined, didn't Mary and Cindy also participate in the actual recordings, whereas for a number
of years only Diana sang on the records with either the Andantes or other backup vocalists.
People make a big deal out of Phil Spector doing that on the Crystals and the Ronettes records, but Motown did it too.
How many recordings of the Marvelettes only feature Wanda or Gladys as Vandellas recordings only featuring Martha.

I do believe that all three recorded on the recordings after Diana's departure, however, Mary wasn't thrilled when Jimmy
Webb brought in additional backup singers on the lp he produced on them--Jean, Mary, Lynda. By the way, I hated that
lp cover design. I thought it was the absolute worst ever issued by the group [[which they had no control over).

[luke]

Correct Randy-though some Andantes used on Right On. I dont think they were ever used after that. Ive always wondered why they were on Right On, especially considering Jean saying she was NOT signed to Motown as a solo. And Im sure Mary and Cindy wanted no more Andantes and they vanished after that from their recordings. The Blossoms on Jimmy Webb.

[chestersong]

Andantes are actually credited on the back of the FloyJoy LP

[randy_russi]

Are they really? I don't recall that although I did have the lp.

[luke]

I guess I stand corrected!