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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    And she's been short of money a lot of times. You need to hang on to what works and she had to use The Supremes and more so, Diana Ross.

    I wonder what happens to all of these heritage artists as the pandemic wears on. The big names can come back as long as they aren't too old but what happens to artists like Mary Wilson who will be 77 before there is any hope of a return to any semblance of normalcy in the concert business.
    Of course we'll wish Mary and all the others well. Mary is a decade past her ability to obtain Social Security and Medicare so she should be able to have a happy life in the way that any other person of her age should. There are those who think that anyone who had a brush with stardom is entitled to an ... well, entitled ... retirement, and I for one agree that all the singers we love should have a better share of royalties. But I don't at all agree that someone should have a 'better' life simply because they were on tv and/or radio 50 years ago. Lesson: every one of us needs to prepare for their own future.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    Of course we'll wish Mary and all the others well. Mary is a decade past her ability to obtain Social Security and Medicare so she should be able to have a happy life in the way that any other person of her age should. There are those who think that anyone who had a brush with stardom is entitled to an ... well, entitled ... retirement, and I for one agree that all the singers we love should have a better share of royalties. But I don't at all agree that someone should have a 'better' life simply because they were on tv and/or radio 50 years ago.
    Lesson: every one of us needs to prepare for their own future.
    How true that everyone should prepare for their future. I learned that as a teenager. I was working in a little record shop and down the block a guy about ten years older than me was working at a fruit stand. He made a record and it became a giant national hit. He also had a follow up hit. He must have riding high making good money because one day he came in flashing rings on his fingers and driving a brand new pink Cadillac [[I was surprised that it wasn't a Lavender Blue Cadillac) But it wasn't long after that he was back working at the fruit stand.

    That taught me that if I ever made some money, I would save and invest some of it and then let that money make money for me so that I wouldn't have to work when I was in my seventies.

    I fear that many of our oldies acts aren't touring just because they like it. I think they financially have to.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    problem is i think that there was enough bad blood between MJL that going to another label wouldn't have been productive. sure it may have helped get them out from under the weight of the Sup legacy but M and J had conflicts almost from the start. not saying they had throw down fights every day but they had very different ideas and goals and frankly just were not ever going to align.

    Plus as we saw with her A&M record, Jean's very VERY strong personal convictions and attitude really prevented her from going forward in the industry. Jean is a wonderful singer, a decent entertainer and only soso when it comes to the business side of show business.
    Of course like all conjecture in these threads, some of the outcomes definitely depend on the details. In a "perfect" world, whatever issues Mary and Jean had were more a result of the stress of being at Motown, stress that may have been alleviated somewhere else. Plus "The Supremes" presented Mary with baggage that was not applicable to Jean, or Lynda. So shedding that old might have also proved a good thing. Even still, Mary might have found that even if things went south at a number label, she may have ended up in the crosshairs of someone who truly believed in her God given abilities and known how to capitalize on them. And thus she may not have even needed to bother with another group. Of course the reality is that she did stay with Motown, and ultimately, past 1972, she has not much to show for that time. Time that might have been best spent elsewhere.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    And she's been short of money a lot of times. You need to hang on to what works and she had to use The Supremes and more so, Diana Ross.

    I wonder what happens to all of these heritage artists as the pandemic wears on. The big names can come back as long as they aren't too old but what happens to artists like Mary Wilson who will be 77 before there is any hope of a return to any semblance of normalcy in the concert business.
    Alright Rob, we get it, Mary isn't as rich as Diana. Geez. It's not like she's in the welfare line.

  5. #55
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    Some on here are thinking she’s a paycheck away from poverty and been saying this for quite a while. Clearly that’s not the case. Somewhere down the line Mary must’ve stashed something away for her to still have her house in Henderson and to afford her comfortable life.
    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Alright Rob, we get it, Mary isn't as rich as Diana. Geez. It's not like she's in the welfare line.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    That taught me that if I ever made some money, I would save and invest some of it and then let that money make money for me so that I wouldn't have to work when I was in my seventies.
    Sadly you're often in the minority with that type of thinking. Most young people aren't thinking much further ahead than next weekend. So consider yourself truly blessed.

    As it relates to Mary, there's always this scuttlebutt in the forum that Mary is one overdue bill away from government assistance, but never anything sourced. Far as I've been able to tell, the last time she was in a very bad way was when she was forced to do the unthinkable and ask Diana for money. If I'm not mistaken, I did read that she was making about a million dollars [[I'm assuming a combo of music and book royalties and performance fees) around the time of RTL, which for a person with Mary's resume [[i.e. claim to fame being 1/3 of the biggest female group in the history of music who's role was backing vocalist) seems extremely well off. What evidence is there that her money is funny today? In fact, other than Cindy's medical induced financial issues, I haven't heard of any of the living Supremes having money issues, even if they aren't as wealthy as Diana.

    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    I fear that many of our oldies acts aren't touring just because they like it. I think they financially have to.
    This is probably true for a lot of them, but don't underestimate the power of the stage either. What they get from performing before a live audience can be like a drug. Many of these folks were among the best to ever do it. It's hard to give that up, money or no money, young or old, in sickness or in health.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Some on here are thinking she’s a paycheck away from poverty and been saying this for quite a while. Clearly that’s not the case. Somewhere down the line Mary must’ve stashed something away for her to still have her house in Henderson and to afford her comfortable life.
    Lol I just said something similar. I would hate to find out that even after all this time and the troubles she had, like having to go to Diana for money when she so bravely escaped the brutality that was Pedro, that she wouldn't have secured her future somehow, especially for her children. I'm going to give Mary much more credit than to assume that her mind never progressed beyond a 20 something year old woman.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Of course like all conjecture in these threads, some of the outcomes definitely depend on the details. In a "perfect" world, whatever issues Mary and Jean had were more a result of the stress of being at Motown, stress that may have been alleviated somewhere else. Plus "The Supremes" presented Mary with baggage that was not applicable to Jean, or Lynda. So shedding that old might have also proved a good thing. Even still, Mary might have found that even if things went south at a number label, she may have ended up in the crosshairs of someone who truly believed in her God given abilities and known how to capitalize on them. And thus she may not have even needed to bother with another group. Of course the reality is that she did stay with Motown, and ultimately, past 1972, she has not much to show for that time. Time that might have been best spent elsewhere.
    the stories i've heard is that M and J started having issues pretty much immediately. again, i don't think they had big bad fights. but i think Jean pretty early on was trying to push the group in a different direction. My understanding is that she felt that as the lead singer, she would LEAD the group. Mary felt differently. so even before things started to sour, they were showing some degree of incompatibility. Jean was doing all of the leads in the studio, the leads on stage, some bg work with M and C and yet wasn't able to lead the direction of the group. that frustration combined with the issues around pay and the slow decline of the group probably made things so conflicted by 72 and there was no way the LMJ lineup could have continued on any label.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    Of course we'll wish Mary and all the others well. Mary is a decade past her ability to obtain Social Security and Medicare so she should be able to have a happy life in the way that any other person of her age should. There are those who think that anyone who had a brush with stardom is entitled to an ... well, entitled ... retirement, and I for one agree that all the singers we love should have a better share of royalties. But I don't at all agree that someone should have a 'better' life simply because they were on tv and/or radio 50 years ago. Lesson: every one of us needs to prepare for their own future.
    according to Randy's book, Social Security was never deducted from their royalties. SS is deducted from salaries not royalties. so the women wouldn't have this to utilize today

    so yes, Mary is continuing to work. so is Diana. i don't know personally what either of their finances are. Fans state that Mary lived beyond her means for years. money from her books quickly was used up. she's had tons of high priced lawsuits.

  10. #60
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    And royalties have fallen so significantly that they don't count for much - this is why they need the concert business. And now it's gone.

  11. #61
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    Without proof that’s all we can do is speculate . And by the looks of it she won’t be back in the projects anytime soon
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    according to Randy's book, Social Security was never deducted from their royalties. SS is deducted from salaries not royalties. so the women wouldn't have this to utilize today

    so yes, Mary is continuing to work. so is Diana. i don't know personally what either of their finances are. Fans state that Mary lived beyond her means for years. money from her books quickly was used up. she's had tons of high priced lawsuits.

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    Those crap sites that give you net worth say Berry is worth $400 million, Diana $250 million, Smokey $150 million, Mary $8 million, Cindy $500,000 and Jean $3 million - so if those were true Mary and Jean are doing fine enough. But I think these are wildly inflated and financial people in Canada often won't include your house in your net worth - because we all need somewhere to live.

    I think Mary has contributed to the questions about her financial well being by some of what she has said - that she borrowed money from friends [[why not the bank?), that she has to work, and by requiring to be paid for interviews.

    But as we all say, she's 77, looks 50, and has survived whatever the means is.

  13. #63
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    Why go to a bank when you can borrow it from someone you know. Nothing wrong with that. As long as it’s paid back there should not be a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    Those crap sites that give you net worth say Berry is worth $400 million, Diana $250 million, Smokey $150 million, Mary $8 million, Cindy $500,000 and Jean $3 million - so if those were true Mary and Jean are doing fine enough. But I think these are wildly inflated and financial people in Canada often won't include your house in your net worth - because we all need somewhere to live.

    I think Mary has contributed to the questions about her financial well being by some of what she has said - that she borrowed money from friends [[why not the bank?), that she has to work, and by requiring to be paid for interviews.

    But as we all say, she's 77, looks 50, and has survived whatever the means is.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Why go to a bank when you can borrow it from someone you know. Nothing wrong with that. As long as it’s paid back there should not be a problem.
    Many times it is not paid back. And then you lose your money and your friend.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    Those crap sites that give you net worth say Berry is worth $400 million, Diana $250 million, Smokey $150 million, Mary $8 million, Cindy $500,000 and Jean $3 million - so if those were true Mary and Jean are doing fine enough. But I think these are wildly inflated and financial people in Canada often won't include your house in your net worth - because we all need somewhere to live.

    I think Mary has contributed to the questions about her financial well being by some of what she has said - that she borrowed money from friends [[why not the bank?), that she has to work, and by requiring to be paid for interviews.

    But as we all say, she's 77, looks 50, and has survived whatever the means is.
    OK up to the 'looks 50'. Sorry; ain't so.

  16. #66
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    In this case she paid the money plus interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    Many times it is not paid back. And then you lose your money and t your friend.

  17. #67
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    And sho made you the authority
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony View Post
    OK up to the 'looks 50'. Sorry; ain't so.

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    Usually you go to a friend if the bank says no to your request for a loan

    Ok - um 52?

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Without proof that’s all we can do is speculate . And by the looks of it she won’t be back in the projects anytime soon
    true - we don't know the details of her finances.

    As for SS, my assumption is that if you're not earning a salary then there aren't any deductions. royalties are not salary and therefor wouldn't qualify for the deductions

  20. #70
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    i would assume that Diana was not Mary's first choice to go to for the money. in her book, she states how she tried to hold off as long as possible but finally her mother convinced her.

    so in regards to Bank vs Diana, it would seem she could NOT get a loan from a bank and therefore had to go to Diana. banks do not offer loans without some form of collateral. and given her financial situation, there most likely wouldn't have been assets readily available or ones that the bank would be interested in. i don't know that a storage locker of gowns would qualify for assets to a bank lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i would assume that Diana was not Mary's first choice to go to for the money. in her book, she states how she tried to hold off as long as possible but finally her mother convinced her.

    so in regards to Bank vs Diana, it would seem she could NOT get a loan from a bank and therefore had to go to Diana. banks do not offer loans without some form of collateral. and given her financial situation, there most likely wouldn't have been assets readily available or ones that the bank would be interested in. i don't know that a storage locker of gowns would qualify for assets to a bank lol
    Silly banks!

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    Like I said before, all we can do is speculate since we were not there so don’t assume she couldn’t go to the bank.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i would assume that Diana was not Mary's first choice to go to for the money. in her book, she states how she tried to hold off as long as possible but finally her mother convinced her.

    so in regards to Bank vs Diana, it would seem she could NOT get a loan from a bank and therefore had to go to Diana. banks do not offer loans without some form of collateral. and given her financial situation, there most likely wouldn't have been assets readily available or ones that the bank would be interested in. i don't know that a storage locker of gowns would qualify for assets to a bank lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Like I said before, all we can do is speculate since we were not there so don’t assume she couldn’t go to the bank.
    well actually we don't have to speculate.

    the money was for a down payment on a house. banks will not allow you to use a loan or borrow for a down payment. you need cash. so no, mary couldn't go to a bank for that. but we can assume that she would for the mortgage itself.

    this was also back in 1981 when there were many less financial tools used by lenders [[as opposed to some of the more creative mortgage options available today). so my earlier comment about collateral and assets wouldn't apply here. And in Supreme Faith, on page 255 Mary states that all of her cash was tied up in her marriage and she was in process of divorce.

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    I know where the money went to. I do have the books too. What we don’t know if she went to the bank first or just went to Diana. She was going thru a divorce and the financial part wasn’t settled when she needed the money.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    well actually we don't have to speculate.

    the moneys was for a down payment on a house. banks will not allow you to use a loan or borrow for a down payment. you need cash. so no, mary couldn't go to a bank for that. but we can assume that she would for the mortgage itself.

    this was also back in 1981 when there were many less financial tools used by lenders [[as opposed to some of the more creative mortgage options available today). so my earlier comment about collateral and assets wouldn't apply here. And in Supreme Faith, on page 255 Mary states that all of her cash was tied up in her marriage and she was in process of divorce.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    Usually you go to a friend if the bank says no to your request for a loan

    Ok - um 52?
    Mary does indeed look good, but like most ladies, after 50 'effortlessly ageless' is the best descriptor!

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    Actually I should correct myself. the money she borrowed was for a house. I was thinking more on the lines that she brought it outright then I remembered Mary saying she needed a down payment. So unless She brought it directly from the owner, or Diana brought the house and she was paying her, she still owed whichever bank that held the mortgage. Which means she did get a loan from the bank but also borrowed money from Diana to put down.

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Actually I should correct myself. the money she borrowed was for a house. I was thinking more on the lines that she brought it outright then I remembered Mary saying she needed a down payment. So unless She brought it directly from the owner, or Diana brought the house and she was paying her, she still owed whichever bank that held the mortgage. Which means she did get a loan from the bank but also borrowed money from Diana to put down.
    exactly - once i dug the book out again, i reread the part where it was for the downpayment. not just money for whatever living expenses. Mary would have been applying for a mortgage and there's no reason to assume she COULDN'T get the mortgage provided the overall price and the monthly payment were within her means. so the bank would have been fine with that. it was just the down payment, which banks do no allow you to finance. so that's apparently what Diana helped with

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    the stories i've heard is that M and J started having issues pretty much immediately. again, i don't think they had big bad fights. but i think Jean pretty early on was trying to push the group in a different direction. My understanding is that she felt that as the lead singer, she would LEAD the group. Mary felt differently. so even before things started to sour, they were showing some degree of incompatibility. Jean was doing all of the leads in the studio, the leads on stage, some bg work with M and C and yet wasn't able to lead the direction of the group. that frustration combined with the issues around pay and the slow decline of the group probably made things so conflicted by 72 and there was no way the LMJ lineup could have continued on any label.
    Like I said before, that was Jean's fault for believing she could come into Mary's group and have her way. I can't imagine a Temptation coming in during the 70s and 80s and on thinking they were going to be in charge of something instead of Otis. Wasn't happening. But my point about the Supremes being "baggage" is tied into some of what you say. Mary was one of the original cultivators of the Supremes brand. Whatever changes were going to occur, Mary probably was invested in staying on brand. Meanwhile, Jean, the up and comer, comes in with all these innovative ideas and to Mary it starts to feel like the original messaging is becoming lost.

    In all likelihood they would not have been able to leave the company with the name Supremes. So if they were able to start from the ground up somewhere else, things might have turned out differently. Things sucked between the ladies toward the end, but the way Mary puts it in her book [[her POV of course), the worst of it seemed to arise when Mary refused the idea to leave and go somewhere else. If Jean is the kind of lady I suspect she is based on what has been written and recollected, if she didn't think she could work with Mary, she would've pulled Lynda aside, said "let's blow this joint", found another woman to join them and gone somewhere else per her suggestion.

    One of Mary's biggest flaws was not taking risks. She always seemed to play it safe. I'm not sure that's a winning formula for making it in the industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    Those crap sites that give you net worth say Berry is worth $400 million, Diana $250 million, Smokey $150 million, Mary $8 million, Cindy $500,000 and Jean $3 million - so if those were true Mary and Jean are doing fine enough. But I think these are wildly inflated and financial people in Canada often won't include your house in your net worth - because we all need somewhere to live.

    I think Mary has contributed to the questions about her financial well being by some of what she has said - that she borrowed money from friends [[why not the bank?), that she has to work, and by requiring to be paid for interviews.

    But as we all say, she's 77, looks 50, and has survived whatever the means is.
    When did she have to borrow money from friends? Is that the Diana thing 40 years ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    When did she have to borrow money from friends? Is that the Diana thing 40 years ago?
    Okay, I see my question has been answered. Since that time, Mary appears to have done very well for herself. Diana is uber wealthy because of her position in the Supremes, which launched her into solo superstardom. She parlayed that into an extremely lucrative recording contract with RCA and since has apparently been fairly smart with her money. Mary was never in a position to sing her way into the kind of money Diana has. The comparisons in their finances really doesn't make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Like I said before, that was Jean's fault for believing she could come into Mary's group and have her way. I can't imagine a Temptation coming in during the 70s and 80s and on thinking they were going to be in charge of something instead of Otis. Wasn't happening. But my point about the Supremes being "baggage" is tied into some of what you say. Mary was one of the original cultivators of the Supremes brand. Whatever changes were going to occur, Mary probably was invested in staying on brand. Meanwhile, Jean, the up and comer, comes in with all these innovative ideas and to Mary it starts to feel like the original messaging is becoming lost.

    In all likelihood they would not have been able to leave the company with the name Supremes. So if they were able to start from the ground up somewhere else, things might have turned out differently. Things sucked between the ladies toward the end, but the way Mary puts it in her book [[her POV of course), the worst of it seemed to arise when Mary refused the idea to leave and go somewhere else. If Jean is the kind of lady I suspect she is based on what has been written and recollected, if she didn't think she could work with Mary, she would've pulled Lynda aside, said "let's blow this joint", found another woman to join them and gone somewhere else per her suggestion.

    One of Mary's biggest flaws was not taking risks. She always seemed to play it safe. I'm not sure that's a winning formula for making it in the industry.
    yes and no. in terms of tenure, yes Mary had that.

    but look at the output and content:

    the albums - Mary sings no leads on RO and has only a couple echo lines in Ladder. 1 shared lead on NW, 1 shared lead on Touch, 1 full lead and 2 shared leads on FJ, 1 full lead on JW. That's a total of 6 songs.

    the duet - there are a few lines on a few songs but no significant leads

    the unreleased tracks - we've come across only a couple of Mary leads - Still Water, Soft Days, the rumored If You Let Me Baby. there might be another one or two that we don't know of.

    BG vocals - Mary also isn't on a significant amount of the background vocals. the A's and other groups were used heavily during this time.

    Live - she had her spotlight of Can't Take My Eyes, would sometimes do a few of the 60s hits in the medley. and certainly did much more of the speaking parts than she did in the 60s. she was much more active in interviews and talk shows too

    Jean was an adult when she came into the group. simply looking at the volume of singing she was required to do, i don't think it's beyond reason to assume that she should have some amount of leadership in the group. she was handling the majorityof the work.

    as for the Temps, they had established a system of multi leads. Dennis, Eddie, sometimes Paul. Dennis was probably one of the most utilized after David left. And Dennis was in the group until they left Motown. Richard Street took over the parts that Paul did.

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    I actually asked this from George not long ago and basically he told me that during the Jean led era Mary and Cindy sang on all of the released singles and most of the album cuts. Most of the songs that don’t have them were recorded prior to Jean’s inclusion of the group. As far as the promise kept tracks, there is a good portion that Mary and Cindy did not record, keeping in mind that these were incomplete tracks not ready for release so in most cases the girls hadn’t payed their vocals yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yes and no. in terms of tenure, yes Mary had that.

    but look at the output and content:

    the albums - Mary sings no leads on RO and has only a couple echo lines in Ladder. 1 shared lead on NW, 1 shared lead on Touch, 1 full lead and 2 shared leads on FJ, 1 full lead on JW. That's a total of 6 songs.

    the duet - there are a few lines on a few songs but no significant leads

    the unreleased tracks - we've come across only a couple of Mary leads - Still Water, Soft Days, the rumored If You Let Me Baby. there might be another one or two that we don't know of.

    BG vocals - Mary also isn't on a significant amount of the background vocals. the A's and other groups were used heavily during this time.

    Live - she had her spotlight of Can't Take My Eyes, would sometimes do a few of the 60s hits in the medley. and certainly did much more of the speaking parts than she did in the 60s. she was much more active in interviews and talk shows too

    Jean was an adult when she came into the group. simply looking at the volume of singing she was required to do, i don't think it's beyond reason to assume that she should have some amount of leadership in the group. she was handling the majorityof the work.

    as for the Temps, they had established a system of multi leads. Dennis, Eddie, sometimes Paul. Dennis was probably one of the most utilized after David left. And Dennis was in the group until they left Motown. Richard Street took over the parts that Paul did.

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    The Supremes didn't launch Diana Ross into super stardom, Diana Ross launched The Supremes into 60's superstardom..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia View Post
    The Supremes didn't launch Diana Ross into super stardom, Diana Ross launched The Supremes into 60's superstardom..
    Stop rewriting history, please and thank you. No one knew who Diana Ross was without the Supremes. Those records said "Supremes". The concert and television performances were of the Supremes, not Diana Ross solo artist. The Supremes launched Diana Ross into super stardom in the same way the Beatles launched it's group members into solo success, as did the Jackson 5 for Michael, and even Jermaine, the Commodores for Lionel Richie, and countless others. Saying that does not take away Diana's key role in the success of the group or from the fact that she put in the work to get where she is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yes and no. in terms of tenure, yes Mary had that.

    but look at the output and content:

    the albums - Mary sings no leads on RO and has only a couple echo lines in Ladder. 1 shared lead on NW, 1 shared lead on Touch, 1 full lead and 2 shared leads on FJ, 1 full lead on JW. That's a total of 6 songs.

    the duet - there are a few lines on a few songs but no significant leads

    the unreleased tracks - we've come across only a couple of Mary leads - Still Water, Soft Days, the rumored If You Let Me Baby. there might be another one or two that we don't know of.

    BG vocals - Mary also isn't on a significant amount of the background vocals. the A's and other groups were used heavily during this time.

    Live - she had her spotlight of Can't Take My Eyes, would sometimes do a few of the 60s hits in the medley. and certainly did much more of the speaking parts than she did in the 60s. she was much more active in interviews and talk shows too

    Jean was an adult when she came into the group. simply looking at the volume of singing she was required to do, i don't think it's beyond reason to assume that she should have some amount of leadership in the group. she was handling the majorityof the work.

    as for the Temps, they had established a system of multi leads. Dennis, Eddie, sometimes Paul. Dennis was probably one of the most utilized after David left. And Dennis was in the group until they left Motown. Richard Street took over the parts that Paul did.
    And Mary had more leads than Otis. Dennis was a lead singer in the group. Nobody considered the Temptations to be Dennis' group. After the exits of most of the Big 5, the Temptations was Otis' and Melvin's until it was just Otis', no matter who was singing lead. And I don't think any guy coming into that unit would think otherwise without being on a serious ego trip. Jean stepped into the lead singer position. That did not entitle her to outrank Mary who had been there from the beginning. Love Jean as y'all know I do, but if she wanted a group to look at her as the top dog, she should've started her own. Her job was to sing and she deserved a seat at the planning table. I said it before, if Mary really was pulling rank in the sense of dismissing Jean, after the experience she had with Diana, that made Mary a hypocrite. Yes, I realize the dynamic was a bit different because Mary and Diana did start out as equals, but the point is that Mary knew how it felt to be dismissed. So if she did that to Jean, that's fucked up. But for Jean to be mad and throw fits because Mary's thoughts carried more weight, then she needed to do some more growing up. I can't imagine that if Levi left the Tops and some other dude came in to take over Levi's lead responsibilities that the new dude would've ever thought he should be the leader of Obie, Duke and Lawrence, and if he did, he probably wouldn't live to tell the tale.

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    LOL, love the line "Mary had more leads than Otis" - just very funny because Otis maybe had one.

    Wasn't Jean only an employee of either Supremes Inc. or Motown? Was Cindy an employee? If they were, it puts things in a certain way to start. Although I can certainly see that Jean may have felt she was the lead voice on all the singles and she may have known the Andantes were also on a lot of the singles as well as some Supremes - then she might have started being a little aggressive for things to change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    I actually asked this from George not long ago and basically he told me that during the Jean led era Mary and Cindy sang on all of the released singles and most of the album cuts. Most of the songs that don’t have them were recorded prior to Jean’s inclusion of the group. As far as the promise kept tracks, there is a good portion that Mary and Cindy did not record, keeping in mind that these were incomplete tracks not ready for release so in most cases the girls hadn’t payed their vocals yet.
    that's very true. On RO - there are definitely tunes that have quite a bit of additional vocals. but that doesn't necessarily mean M and C are not on there too.

    it does seem that by the time of NW, M and C are being used. there are multiple backing vocal tracks and so it's hard to always know if M and C just recorded multiple or if session singers were added. Or perhaps both. on the song Touch, there are at least 3 or 4 things happening in the bg vocals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobeterob View Post
    LOL, love the line "Mary had more leads than Otis" - just very funny because Otis maybe had one.

    Wasn't Jean only an employee of either Supremes Inc. or Motown? Was Cindy an employee? If they were, it puts things in a certain way to start. Although I can certainly see that Jean may have felt she was the lead voice on all the singles and she may have known the Andantes were also on a lot of the singles as well as some Supremes - then she might have started being a little aggressive for things to change.
    Supremes Inc, i believe, came about later. Was it when S and C came into the picture? Motown was pretty much still controlling things prior. It's possible [[guessing here) that Mary set it up so that things could continue after L and J left. motown most likely would not have done anything

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    Supremes inc. was set up after J and L left to handle most of the groups business. With the exception of recording sessions and booking[[ handled by Motown and the William Morris agency).
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Supremes Inc, i believe, came about later. Was it when S and C came into the picture? Motown was pretty much still controlling things prior. It's possible [[guessing here) that Mary set it up so that things could continue after L and J left. motown most likely would not have done anything

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Supremes inc. was set up after J and L left to handle most of the groups business. With the exception of recording sessions and booking[[ handled by Motown and the William Morris agency).
    This section of the final days of the Supremes always confused me. If Sherrie and Susaye were set to continue with a new member, would Mary and Pedro's Supremes Inc be managing them? Was it now their group and not Motown's? If it was still Motown's group and Motown owned the name, and Motown or William Morris did the bookings, then why did Mary feel compelled to have to fill those booking obligations?

    And after those obligations were met, why did Mary continue to bill herself with the Supremes name?

    And then later, why did she lose millions in failed lawsuits trying to own the name Supremes even though, like Diana in 1969, Mary left it behind in 1977 to start a solo career?

    And what about Marion? Will she ever leave Conoga Falls?

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    all 9 women had official contracts with motown. so in terms of membership, that's at least settled

    Mary's book is sketchy at best, in terms of the specific details. and that's understandable. she wasn't writing a case study. I believe she mentioned that in later 76 the girls resigned with William Morris. that's how they got that last minute gig at Caesar's. as for who was managing bookings prior, i don't know.

    Sup Inc might have been handling other aspects of the work and bills - photo shoots, dress designs and maintenance, arranging new music for the shows, hiring choreographers. I'd also assume Sup Inc was the one determining what music would be in the show

    but yes, it's all a bit speculative

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    There’s a lot of overlap here. I’m guessing once Mary was gone any commitments that Scherrie and Susaye had with Supremes inc was cut. Motown was supposed to be handling any new business but clearly didn’t. so when Mary was notified about the South American tour it put her in a peculiar situation also it didn’t help the fact that Mary was still signed on as a Supreme. She must’ve gotten some form of a threat since she went on the tour. As far as the name I don’t know how anyone can unpack that mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    This section of the final days of the Supremes always confused me. If Sherrie and Susaye were set to continue with a new member, would Mary and Pedro's Supremes Inc be managing them? Was it now their group and not Motown's? If it was still Motown's group and Motown owned the name, and Motown or William Morris did the bookings, then why did Mary feel compelled to have to fill those booking obligations?

    And after those obligations were met, why did Mary continue to bill herself with the Supremes name?

    And then later, why did she lose millions in failed lawsuits trying to own the name Supremes even though, like Diana in 1969, Mary left it behind in 1977 to start a solo career?

    And what about Marion? Will she ever leave Conoga Falls?

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    Wow! Okay, from my understanding about the post 1973 era was that Mary hired Scherrie and Cindy through Supremes Inc since when Lynda and Jean left that Motown did not follow through to hire anyone-they were probably thinking it was the end of the group. Mary continued to perform with Cindy & Scherrie and hired them on her own. She states that they basically were working for her under this. Mary stated Ewart Abner[[sp) was not happy that she hired Scherrie on her own since as was stated before they signed their Motown contracts that "none of you are Supremes" and he included Mary in that. Once Motown came through they had contracts with Motown and still worked for Supremes Inc with agreed upon percentages. In 1977 when Mary left Motown was not automatically offering her anything until after she filed her lawsuit against them to the labor commission. Mary knew how important the Supremes name was since even in the press they were using the Supremes name in connection with Diana Ross, yet Motown forbade Florence Ballard from using it and she saw some resulting problems from not capitalizing on that connection. Other record companies probably felt since Ross was chosen that everybody else would not be worth their time since they were not chosen. Jean did end up with 1 LP on A&M and Scherrie had some releases but nothing was befitting their talents and legacy. Mary may have played it safe but she saw the disparity between how Diana was regarded and how the rest of the group was after all of those years. I also don't think a leap for JML to another label would have been successful with the Supremes name and Motown. As far as the legal issues with the name-remember that she signed post 1973 after getting 50% of the name, although the legalese was quite different from that basic premise. Mary was in the group from beginning to end and she loved the group and still felt after leaving it was her legacy and not just Motown. As far as Jean & Mary having issues I just heard a You Tube in 1971 with Jean saying that her and Mary had issues and disagreed. I think if after Gordy had chosen her that the three of them along with Gordy spoke about the plans for the group going forward that maybe Jean would have had a better understanding of the group and her role. Mary even alludes to Gordy perhaps telling Jean it would be a launching pad for a solo career. Mary states in her book that before Jean left she let little things slip that it had. Gordy also met with Mary with Scherrie and told her she gave the other girls too much power and that she had really done it with Jean. Perhaps that was his way to make Mary more assertive. who knows?

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    Seems all pretty unclear but I will say that the legalese - what actually got signed and what those contracts and documents said - will "trump" [[eeks, sorry for that word) feelings and wishes and hopes.

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