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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    Second rate suggests inferior which might not have been the case.
    The point being would those HDH songs have become the hits they did without the unique and extremely radio friendly Ross voice. I think the Supremes would have been just as successful had Flo and Mary been two other female singers.
    Take Diana out of the equation and what are you left with. I say that not to down play Flo and Mary’s contribution for l think they were great at what they did.
    Having said that it was Diana’s voice alone that was uniquely special. Like many other artists she needed good song writers and a strong support team behind her.
    When all is said and done, she was the key to it all.
    To be honest Ollie, I think this is always a strange conversation to have because one question leads to another. Would those HDH songs have become the hits they did without Diana? Maybe, considering HDH had huge hits and equally incredible classics with other singers besides Diana. Interesting to note that Diana's voice was on at least seven flops before getting a hit, a couple of which showcase the beauty of her voice as much as the classics, and yet they went "nowhere". A hit song is a hit song often for many reasons. Diana's lead on "Where Did Our Love Go" is often pointed out as a reason why the song was such a big hit. But honestly, I've seen just as many so called music pundits point out the hypnotic background of Mary [[and Flo?), and that new phase of the Motown Sound coming together to create an incredible song. I would add my own opinion that any other two singers with Diana on "Come See About Me" or "You Keep Me Hanging On" might have made for an "inferior" product. If Diana's voice is the be all for you, it is what it is. For me, as a lover of music, there are any number of reasons why I love a song, and the lead singer may or may not be it. There are certainly times when I love everything but the lead singer. For me Flo and Mary's contributions to what made the Supremes THE SUPREMES is immeasurable and nothing to sneeze at. Of the three of them, Diana was the key to the door that led to superstardom. But the Supremes were more than just recording artists. It took all three of them to keep that ship moving, hence what happened whenever one of them rocked the boat. One might even consider what may have happened had Diana been in a group with two other girls who, instead of having a like mind of "success or nothing", instead the other two girls were like "fuck this shit" after three or four failed recordings. Sometimes disenchantment can be contagious, especially for young people. Diana might have decided that she too was sick of it and decided to do something else, and we'd have nothing to talk about here.

    For the record, I'm a fan of the Supremes because of Florence. Without her, I would've never gotten hooked on the group and thus hooked on Motown. I didn't start out being wowed by Diana Ross' voice, although I always had a healthy respect for it and liked it.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    ........ By the time Scherrie comes in, the group name should've definitely been changed. There is absolutely no resemblance between MSC and MSS to FDM at all. No value in the name at that point.
    This story has been told before but when High Energy came out, and it was not selling in a record shop because the group was "played out", they put masking tape over the Supremes name on the cover and promoted the album as a new group called High Energy. Back then they played albums in the store and the customers liked what they heard from the new group and bought the record.

    So perhaps you are right


  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    To be honest Ollie, I think this is always a strange conversation to have because one question leads to another. Would those HDH songs have become the hits they did without Diana? Maybe, considering HDH had huge hits and equally incredible classics with other singers besides Diana. Interesting to note that Diana's voice was on at least seven flops before getting a hit, a couple of which showcase the beauty of her voice as much as the classics, and yet they went "nowhere". A hit song is a hit song often for many reasons. Diana's lead on "Where Did Our Love Go" is often pointed out as a reason why the song was such a big hit. But honestly, I've seen just as many so called music pundits point out the hypnotic background of Mary [[and Flo?), and that new phase of the Motown Sound coming together to create an incredible song. I would add my own opinion that any other two singers with Diana on "Come See About Me" or "You Keep Me Hanging On" might have made for an "inferior" product. If Diana's voice is the be all for you, it is what it is. For me, as a lover of music, there are any number of reasons why I love a song, and the lead singer may or may not be it. There are certainly times when I love everything but the lead singer. For me Flo and Mary's contributions to what made the Supremes THE SUPREMES is immeasurable and nothing to sneeze at. Of the three of them, Diana was the key to the door that led to superstardom. But the Supremes were more than just recording artists. It took all three of them to keep that ship moving, hence what happened whenever one of them rocked the boat. One might even consider what may have happened had Diana been in a group with two other girls who, instead of having a like mind of "success or nothing", instead the other two girls were like "fuck this shit" after three or four failed recordings. Sometimes disenchantment can be contagious, especially for young people. Diana might have decided that she too was sick of it and decided to do something else, and we'd have nothing to talk about here.

    For the record, I'm a fan of the Supremes because of Florence. Without her, I would've never gotten hooked on the group and thus hooked on Motown. I didn't start out being wowed by Diana Ross' voice, although I always had a healthy respect for it and liked it.
    To coin a well used phrase it’s all subjective Ran lol. I certainly think in those early, transitional years Diana needed her fellow Supremes. I think it’s difficult for us as Supremes fans to ponder the original grouping not including Flo and Mary. Our knee jerk response will always be it couldn’t possibly have been as good without them. The response derives as much from sentiment as subjective opinion.
    It’s worth remembering that even on some of those early hits, Flo or Mary may possibly have been absent. In some cases it’s really hard to tell.
    I do find it strange that Diana’s unique sound was not the first thing that attracted you to the group. Out of interest what was the first Supremes song you ever heard that made you think, lead singer ok but who is that singing background?.. I can’t say for sure, but guess you would be in the minority on that one.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    This story has been told before but when High Energy came out, and it was not selling in a record shop because the group was "played out", they put masking tape over the Supremes name on the cover and promoted the album as a new group called High Energy. Back then they played albums in the store and the customers liked what they heard from the new group and bought the record.

    So perhaps you are right

    Very interesting anecdote! I think it says a lot.

  5. #55
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    For me it wasn't necessary Diana's voice as I saw them rather than heard them. And I was drawn to them by how theatrical they were and the glamor.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    But that's just it, the Supremes branding occurred during the original trio's reign. Diana and Mary together were able to stay on brand because they helped create it. Cindy was "forced" into it, as was Jean. So as the years went by and it seems like the groupings kept removing what made the Supremes THE SUPREMES, it's like what's the point of them being the Supremes anymore? I think if Motown had spearheaded a PR event where Diana leaves the Supremes for solo success and Mary and Cindy join Jean in a brand new musical force- New Ways for the sake of this convo- things might have gone a bit smoother. Jean might have been happier because she'd be a founding member as opposed to the new girl joining an existing group recently vacated by a huge talent. Even Mary and Cindy may have found their positions as singers increase, considering that first album was once again a lead singer and two backing singers.

    In other words, the value of the name Supremes decreased where the public was concerned. They never kept that thing that made the name a household name in the first place. Compare them to the Tempts, who also had a revolving door of singers. They too had lulls in the career, but they were always an automatic entertainment fav because even though at a certain point three of the original big five were gone, leaving just Melvin and Otis, the Tempts still kept that thing that made them exciting from day one. The Jean years kept some of the 60s momentum going. By the time Scherrie comes in, the group name should've definitely been changed. There is absolutely no resemblance between MSC and MSS to FDM at all. No value in the name at that point.
    so i don't think it was the name itself that needed to change but the group and managerial approach. while obviously the group was always going to represent class and elegance, they and their managers could and should have done more to keep up with the times. they evolved nicely in 70 with Jean and a more soulful sound. plus the whole peace and love image/tone of their music.

    in 72 they could have evolved into more of the Quiet Storm sound and style. but the name The Supremes could have still worked perfectly fine.

    with Scherrie joining in 74, the pop tunes on Sup 75 were perfect 70s pop fare. and could have charted had the management at the time pushed it. again it wasn't the name The Supremes that was the barrier there but inept management and promotion

    with the disco era the name The Supremes could have been a big asset. the group was synonymous with glamour and that fit perfectly with the ethos of disco. again, had there been better management decisions and approaches during this time, things could have been different

    it wasn't the name The Supremes that was the problem. poor management, lack of willingness to evolve their style and sound was the issue.

    now you're right that once they were out of touch with things, the name The Supremes sort of became a joke. they weren't relevant. they had mismanaged the brand

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    To coin a well used phrase it’s all subjective Ran lol. I certainly think in those early, transitional years Diana needed her fellow Supremes. I think it’s difficult for us as Supremes fans to ponder the original grouping not including Flo and Mary. Our knee jerk response will always be it couldn’t possibly have been as good without them. The response derives as much from sentiment as subjective opinion.
    It’s worth remembering that even on some of those early hits, Flo or Mary may possibly have been absent. In some cases it’s really hard to tell.
    I do find it strange that Diana’s unique sound was not the first thing that attracted you to the group. Out of interest what was the first Supremes song you ever heard that made you think, lead singer ok but who is that singing background?.. I can’t say for sure, but guess you would be in the minority on that one.
    I agree with Sup fan on this one. Would the Supremes have succeeded with Diana and two other women? Sure. Would they have achieved the same success? From my perspective, nope, because each individual component brought something special to the mix. Remove it and you're left with something completely different. The fortunes of many have been changed by a decision. In other words, how different the story of any entity, be it music group, record label, Coca Cola, if not for all the ingredients that came together to create it. As I said before, these kinds of conversations end up in a stream of questions. So if not for HDH, would we even know Diana Ross? Something to ponder.

    Regarding the background singing of the singles, I thought the issue had kind of been put to bed. Flo and Mary are on everything up until "Hurry Love", when it appears that Flo may have been replaced with Marlene. The Andantes are added to "Stop". I would say "Symphony" and "My World" are the two singles where the backing vocals get a bit muddled into the mix, but everything else was pretty much a group effort. [[And then there's the mystery of why no audible Flo on "Where Did Our Love Go". I would really love for George or someone to address this.)

    Unique doesn't mean automatic attraction. Lol As a kid I knew the Supremes' big hits and felt about them the same as I did the big hits of the Tempts, the Tops, Martha and the Vandellas, and the other Motown and 60s soul groups. I was that 80s/90s kid that enjoyed that kind of stuff as much as I did whatever was on contemporary radio. But I wasn't any more knocked out by Diana's voice than I was anyone else's, certainly not to the point where I wanted to collect everything she or the Supremes ever did. But then I read Dreamgirl when I was 13. Mary spoke so highly of Flo's voice that I decided to hear it as lead singer for myself and found a copy of Meet the Supremes. I loved "Buttered Popcorn" on first listen. Still today Flo's lead singing [[and backing) voice is one of my all time favorites. Anyway, of course I didn't just listen to "Buttered Popcorn" but the rest of the Meet album. A couple of the numbers do Diana no real favors, but "Your Heart", "Right Way", and "Time Changes Things", in particular show the group at their early best. I found that I really dug this group in a way that I didn't for some of their contemporaries. So from there I started collecting the other albums, which not only gave me an increased appreciation for Flo and Mary's contributions, but also the overall artistry of Diana Ross, who suddenly became more than the lead singer of some of those overplayed big hits like "Baby Love" and "Stop In the Name Of Love". [[I also knew Diana from stuff like "Swept Away" and "Missing You", both of which got constant airplay in Chicago, and songs that I loved.) Eventually Diana became one of my all time favorite vocalists period. And because of collecting the Supremes, my collecting eventually stretched to Marvin, and the Tempts, and Martha and the Vandellas, and to Motown in general. And it can all be traced back to Flo.

  8. #58
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    i think the issue with WDOLG is that they had Flo stand quite a ways back from the mic. i guess they wanted a deeper sound and Flo's soprano had a brightness to it.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by milven View Post
    This story has been told before but when High Energy came out, and it was not selling in a record shop because the group was "played out", they put masking tape over the Supremes name on the cover and promoted the album as a new group called High Energy. Back then they played albums in the store and the customers liked what they heard from the new group and bought the record.

    So perhaps you are right

    very interesting story. hadn't heard this one before. agree that by this time the brand name had degraded some in the general public's mind. but again, that was the result of poor decisions and actions in the years preceding

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    I agree with Sup fan on this one. Would the Supremes have succeeded with Diana and two other women? Sure. Would they have achieved the same success? From my perspective, nope, because each individual component brought something special to the mix. Remove it and you're left with something completely different. The fortunes of many have been changed by a decision. In other words, how different the story of any entity, be it music group, record label, Coca Cola, if not for all the ingredients that came together to create it. As I said before, these kinds of conversations end up in a stream of questions. So if not for HDH, would we even know Diana Ross? Something to ponder.

    Regarding the background singing of the singles, I thought the issue had kind of been put to bed. Flo and Mary are on everything up until "Hurry Love", when it appears that Flo may have been replaced with Marlene. The Andantes are added to "Stop". I would say "Symphony" and "My World" are the two singles where the backing vocals get a bit muddled into the mix, but everything else was pretty much a group effort. [[And then there's the mystery of why no audible Flo on "Where Did Our Love Go". I would really love for George or someone to address this.)

    Unique doesn't mean automatic attraction. Lol As a kid I knew the Supremes' big hits and felt about them the same as I did the big hits of the Tempts, the Tops, Martha and the Vandellas, and the other Motown and 60s soul groups. I was that 80s/90s kid that enjoyed that kind of stuff as much as I did whatever was on contemporary radio. But I wasn't any more knocked out by Diana's voice than I was anyone else's, certainly not to the point where I wanted to collect everything she or the Supremes ever did. But then I read Dreamgirl when I was 13. Mary spoke so highly of Flo's voice that I decided to hear it as lead singer for myself and found a copy of Meet the Supremes. I loved "Buttered Popcorn" on first listen. Still today Flo's lead singing [[and backing) voice is one of my all time favorites. Anyway, of course I didn't just listen to "Buttered Popcorn" but the rest of the Meet album. A couple of the numbers do Diana no real favors, but "Your Heart", "Right Way", and "Time Changes Things", in particular show the group at their early best. I found that I really dug this group in a way that I didn't for some of their contemporaries. So from there I started collecting the other albums, which not only gave me an increased appreciation for Flo and Mary's contributions, but also the overall artistry of Diana Ross, who suddenly became more than the lead singer of some of those overplayed big hits like "Baby Love" and "Stop In the Name Of Love". [[I also knew Diana from stuff like "Swept Away" and "Missing You", both of which got constant airplay in Chicago, and songs that I loved.) Eventually Diana became one of my all time favorite vocalists period. And because of collecting the Supremes, my collecting eventually stretched to Marvin, and the Tempts, and Martha and the Vandellas, and to Motown in general. And it can all be traced back to Flo.
    My first experience is a little different,. As a very young kid l heard “Stop In The Name Of Love” radiating from the radio in our kitchen for the first time. I remember being totally enthralled with the Ross voice, which sounded so very different from anyone else. I was hooked from that moment on and have never really looked back.
    I of course eventually came to learn of Mary and Flo, but it was that lead voice trilling out the notes with an edge of profound despair that first caught my imagination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    My first experience is a little different,. As a very young kid l heard “Stop In The Name Of Love” radiating from the radio in our kitchen for the first time. I remember being totally enthralled with the Ross voice, which sounded so very different from anyone else. I was hooked from that moment on and have never really looked back.
    I of course eventually came to learn of Mary and Flo, but it was that lead voice trilling out the notes with an edge of profound despair that first caught my imagination.
    Ditto !!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    My first experience is a little different,. As a very young kid l heard “Stop In The Name Of Love” radiating from the radio in our kitchen for the first time. I remember being totally enthralled with the Ross voice, which sounded so very different from anyone else. I was hooked from that moment on and have never really looked back.
    I of course eventually came to learn of Mary and Flo, but it was that lead voice trilling out the notes with an edge of profound despair that first caught my imagination.
    I had the same experience, Ollie9, here in California [[LA)! I was 11, riding in the car with my family, and Stop! comes on the radio. That voice captivated me from the start. It was truly like no other singer or voice. I didn't know who Ross was but I soon learned about the Supremes. Mary & Flo of course became important on television and record covers, because the Supremes were truly a group [[then). But you just knew you were hearing a new Supremes record every time because of that unmistakable voice. She could have been singing with any two other girls [[as was apparently so at times).

    I first heard Mary & Flo on Meet The Supremes. Although I was put-off by the "primitiveness" of the songs and much of Diana's singing on that album, I still knew and understood why she'd been chosen to lead later. Your Heart Belongs To Me was the [[only) highlight of that album. I still love that song and vocal performance.

    I thought Mary's and Flo's leads were unremarkable, although I did like the fun and energy of Buttered Popcorn. [[This 11 year old had no idea of double meanings!) I was disappointed because I had expected all three Supremes to be special and remarkable singers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    I had the same experience, Ollie9, here in California [[LA)! I was 11, riding in the car with my family, and Stop! comes on the radio. That voice captivated me from the start. It was truly like no other singer or voice. I didn't know who Ross was but I soon learned about the Supremes. Mary & Flo of course became important on television and record covers, because the Supremes were truly a group [[then). But you just knew you were hearing a new Supremes record every time because of that unmistakable voice. She could have been singing with any two other girls [[as was apparently so at times).

    I first heard Mary & Flo on Meet The Supremes. Although I was put-off by the "primitiveness" of the songs and much of Diana's singing on that album, I still knew and understood why she'd been chosen to lead later. Your Heart Belongs To Me was the [[only) highlight of that album. I still love that song and vocal performance.

    I thought Mary's and Flo's leads were unremarkable, although I did like the fun and energy of Buttered Popcorn. [[This 11 year old had no idea of double meanings!) I was disappointed because I had expected all three Supremes to be special and remarkable singers.
    Its nice to learn other fans experiences of hearing the Supremes for the first time lucky. I would go as far to say that for the majority [[not all) Supremes fans it was the kittenish , pleading dulcet tones of Diana’s voice that made those records special and the reason we are still discussing the group today.
    As regards “Buttered Popcorn”, the first time l ever heard it l thought it sounded a bit rude. So glad I’m not the only one lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky2012 View Post
    I had the same experience, Ollie9, here in California [[LA)! I was 11, riding in the car with my family, and Stop! comes on the radio. That voice captivated me from the start. It was truly like no other singer or voice. I didn't know who Ross was but I soon learned about the Supremes. Mary & Flo of course became important on television and record covers, because the Supremes were truly a group [[then). But you just knew you were hearing a new Supremes record every time because of that unmistakable voice. She could have been singing with any two other girls [[as was apparently so at times).

    I first heard Mary & Flo on Meet The Supremes. Although I was put-off by the "primitiveness" of the songs and much of Diana's singing on that album, I still knew and understood why she'd been chosen to lead later. Your Heart Belongs To Me was the [[only) highlight of that album. I still love that song and vocal performance.

    I thought Mary's and Flo's leads were unremarkable, although I did like the fun and energy of Buttered Popcorn. [[This 11 year old had no idea of double meanings!) I was disappointed because I had expected all three Supremes to be special and remarkable singers.
    I have to agree with you. I didn't hear anything special in Mary and Flo's voices that made me sit up and think they could have found any notable success as solo artists. I have always found Mary's voice to be dull and bland, and whilst Flo undoubtably had a loud voice it never moved me any shape or form, and was not distinctive in any positive way. I do think Mary and Flo were excellent backing vocalists, which is in itself an accomplishment, but as lead vocalists they left me underwhelmed. I think Berry knew this from the onset and wisely concentrated on the girl who could make him seriously wealthy, and boy didn't she do just that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    I have to agree with you. I didn't hear anything special in Mary and Flo's voices that made me sit up and think they could have found any notable success as solo artists. I have always found Mary's voice to be dull and bland, and whilst Flo undoubtably had a loud voice it never moved me any shape or form, and was not distinctive in any positive way. I do think Mary and Flo were excellent backing vocalists, which is in itself an accomplishment, but as lead vocalists they left me underwhelmed. I think Berry knew this from the onset and wisely concentrated on the girl who could make him seriously wealthy, and boy didn't she do just that.
    agreed although i do think both M and F could have excelled as lead singers in more specific genres. I think Mary could have [[with practice and training) excelled as a jazz and blues singer. and Flo really had a way of conveying humor through song. again with training, she could have found a niche too. neither though had the wide versatility of Diana. frankly no other female artist at Motown did.

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    Not sure if either of them would have been good as lead singer. Like I mentioned a few times earlier is that Florence sounded, not going to say bad, but just not very good on her solo records after she left in '67. I do tend to like a few of Mary's leads but I couldn't listen to a whole album with just Mary. I think I tend to like their voices because it's often just 1 song that breaks up Diana's voice throughout the whole album. Same with Cindy. As much as I like her I don't think she was up to sing lead. I like her voice on the background and when she does a verse here and there.

    Background in the early years sounded just like any other girl group background. Stop in the name on where the action is has a very good blend of how Mary and Florence could blend perfectly. The harmony and especially at the end is very good. It's the only version that I think sounds better than the released single. But then Florence and Mary sounded pretty bad on the alternate version of Stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYK1986 View Post
    Not sure if either of them would have been good as lead singer. Like I mentioned a few times earlier is that Florence sounded, not going to say bad, but just not very good on her solo records after she left in '67. I do tend to like a few of Mary's leads but I couldn't listen to a whole album with just Mary. I think I tend to like their voices because it's often just 1 song that breaks up Diana's voice throughout the whole album. Same with Cindy. As much as I like her I don't think she was up to sing lead. I like her voice on the background and when she does a verse here and there.

    Background in the early years sounded just like any other girl group background. Stop in the name on where the action is has a very good blend of how Mary and Florence could blend perfectly. The harmony and especially at the end is very good. It's the only version that I think sounds better than the released single. But then Florence and Mary sounded pretty bad on the alternate version of Stop.
    i agree that neither of the had the versatility to make a full album exciting. at least not without more training and development.

    now on the positive side, flo's Good News is wonderful. and a song or two with that attitude and sass would be great. Also, although a brief line, i adore her lines in Breathtaking Guy. just a beautifully smooth soprano. curious how that could have be developed into a full song.

    on the other hand, i find People to be difficult to get through. but part of that is the funeral dirge pace of the song!! if they'd picked it up a bit and let her have a bit more movement with it, it might have worked better. same with the 2 holiday leads.

    so i think they could have done something with Flo but needed work

    Mary had some excellent moments too. her lead snippets in Christmas Song are fabulous. she FINALLY really works the lyric and adds some emotion into it. many of her other leads are just too bland. I'd have liked to hear her tackled a bit more of the CW album.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i agree that neither of the had the versatility to make a full album exciting. at least not without more training and development.

    now on the positive side, flo's Good News is wonderful. and a song or two with that attitude and sass would be great. Also, although a brief line, i adore her lines in Breathtaking Guy. just a beautifully smooth soprano. curious how that could have be developed into a full song.

    on the other hand, i find People to be difficult to get through. but part of that is the funeral dirge pace of the song!! if they'd picked it up a bit and let her have a bit more movement with it, it might have worked better. same with the 2 holiday leads.

    so i think they could have done something with Flo but needed work

    Mary had some excellent moments too. her lead snippets in Christmas Song are fabulous. she FINALLY really works the lyric and adds some emotion into it. many of her other leads are just too bland. I'd have liked to hear her tackled a bit more of the CW album.
    I love Flo's line in Breathtaking Guy as well. It actually took me a while to realize it was her! Lol I had always thought it was Diana. I wonder if it might have worked had Diana and Flo traded lines during the verses as well.

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    I would have loved for Mary and particularly Flo to have been given a couple of solo songs on the R & H album. Their background work on this set is exemplary and for me the best of their Supremes career. They certainly add to to the enjoyment of the entire album with each of their personalities shining through.
    Flo might have led on This Can’t Be Love” and perhaps a duet with Diana on “I Could Write A Book”. “Thou Swell” would have made another great duet for Diana and Mary.
    The only song l think Diana sounds weak on is “Spring Is Here”, which perhaps would have been better suited to Mary’s voice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I would have loved for Mary and particularly Flo to have been given a couple of solo songs on the R & H album. Their background work on this set is exemplary and for me the best of their Supremes career. They certainly add to to the enjoyment of the entire album with each of their personalities shining through.
    Flo might have led on This Can’t Be Love” and perhaps a duet with Diana on “I Could Write A Book”. “Thou Swell” would have made another great duet for Diana and Mary.
    The only song l think Diana sounds weak on is “Spring Is Here”, which perhaps would have been better suited to Mary’s voice.
    Are there any Vandella songs that one of the backup Vandellas should have sung rather than Martha? Should one of the Tops or Miracles have taken a couple leads from Levi or Smokey?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Circa 1824 View Post
    Are there any Vandella songs that one of the backup Vandellas should have sung rather than Martha? Should one of the Tops or Miracles have taken a couple leads from Levi or Smokey?
    Not so sure regarding MR&V as am not really a huge fan. Certainly I would have like to have heard Lawrence Payton featured on more of the Four Tops albums. He had such a beautiful, smooth tone to his voice in contrast to the more strident, ear grabbing sound of Levi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I would have loved for Mary and particularly Flo to have been given a couple of solo songs on the R & H album. Their background work on this set is exemplary and for me the best of their Supremes career. They certainly add to to the enjoyment of the entire album with each of their personalities shining through.
    Flo might have led on This Can’t Be Love” and perhaps a duet with Diana on “I Could Write A Book”. “Thou Swell” would have made another great duet for Diana and Mary.
    The only song l think Diana sounds weak on is “Spring Is Here”, which perhaps would have been better suited to Mary’s voice.
    i agree. while the R&H set is stellar, i think i would have liked it even more if it was approached with more of group concept. compare it to the There's A Place For Us album which has more group interplay, more 3part harmonies, etc.

    as for This Can't Be Love - i don't know about Flo on that one. based on her solo lp, i don't find her work on bouncy little pop tunes to be appealing. of all the tracks in R&H, Johnny One Note is the one i hear her singing - it's fast but has the comic lyrics that i think she could have had fun with. of the released tracks, what about a big power ballad like Where or When?

    for Mary, i love FAlling in Love. it's fun as a duet but wonder if they could have structured the song differently. Mary sing the first verse totally solo. Diana joins and they duet on the second verse and then have Flo come in for the ending. it's almost how they did the song - just giving mary the first verse. of the unreleased tracks, Mary would have been lovely on Spring is Here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    i agree. while the R&H set is stellar, i think i would have liked it even more if it was approached with more of group concept. compare it to the There's A Place For Us album which has more group interplay, more 3part harmonies, etc.

    as for This Can't Be Love - i don't know about Flo on that one. based on her solo lp, i don't find her work on bouncy little pop tunes to be appealing. of all the tracks in R&H, Johnny One Note is the one i hear her singing - it's fast but has the comic lyrics that i think she could have had fun with. of the released tracks, what about a big power ballad like Where or When?

    for Mary, i love FAlling in Love. it's fun as a duet but wonder if they could have structured the song differently. Mary sing the first verse totally solo. Diana joins and they duet on the second verse and then have Flo come in for the ending. it's almost how they did the song - just giving mary the first verse. of the unreleased tracks, Mary would have been lovely on Spring is Here.
    ‘Johnny One Note’ quite possibly, but l can’t really hear Flo on ‘Where Or When’.
    I find the 2002 edition of the complete recordings a little chilly sounding. I longed for the warmth of the vinyl LP on this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    ‘Johnny One Note’ quite possibly, but l can’t really hear Flo on ‘Where Or When’.
    I find the 2002 edition of the complete recordings a little chilly sounding. I longed for the warmth of the vinyl LP on this one.
    the lyrics of Johnny remind me of Mame and even [[to a degree) Good News. obviously totally different story line but there's lyrical wit in all three songs which i think Flo really could capture

    another Flo tune might be Lover

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    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    the lyrics of Johnny remind me of Mame and even [[to a degree) Good News. obviously totally different story line but there's lyrical wit in all three songs which i think Flo really could capture

    another Flo tune might be Lover
    Nah, l love Diana’s lead on “Lover”, complete with Flo’ and Mary’s superb background vocals. I do agree that Flo’s voice might have been better suited to ‘JON’ as Diana’s voice is a little overextended on that one. All songs are superb, but ‘Thou Swell’ remains my favourite from the original album. Of songs not included on the original release, l would definitely have kept “Blue Room”.
    Proving something of a revelation for me was Diana’s mature and sensitive vocal on “My Funny Valentine”. Her vocal growth is amazing.

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    Blue Room is a favorite of mine too. an excellent recording and an excellent performance by the girls

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    The attraction to music is, as Ollie pointed out, subjective. Of course Diana's voice, as lead vocalist, is always going to be a star of the show, but for many folks, the singer's voice can only carry the song so far. There's a lot that goes into making a song popular. I'd opine that thoughts regarding any of these songs might change if the lyrics weren't written by HDH or music played by the Funk Brothers, both of which are often integral to the popularity of many of the Supremes hits. I wonder what the thoughts would be if Diana were singing songs at Stax written by Isaac Hayes or David Porter and being backed up by Booker T and the MGs.

    In any case, perhaps I'm the minority in this forum on this one, so I'll just have to wear that crown. Diana Ross is icing on a Supremes cake for me, but I've never been a fan of icing alone, so it's the combo of the icing and the cake that make this group my favorite. To add, I also find the Funk Bros to be an ingredient of the cake. I find the Supremes a tad less appealing when not fronting that marvelous band. [["Love Is Here and Now You're Gone", not a Funk Bros cut, is easily in my top 5 favorite Supremes hits, go figure.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    The attraction to music is, as Ollie pointed out, subjective. Of course Diana's voice, as lead vocalist, is always going to be a star of the show, but for many folks, the singer's voice can only carry the song so far. There's a lot that goes into making a song popular. I'd opine that thoughts regarding any of these songs might change if the lyrics weren't written by HDH or music played by the Funk Brothers, both of which are often integral to the popularity of many of the Supremes hits. I wonder what the thoughts would be if Diana were singing songs at Stax written by Isaac Hayes or David Porter and being backed up by Booker T and the MGs.

    In any case, perhaps I'm the minority in this forum on this one, so I'll just have to wear that crown. Diana Ross is icing on a Supremes cake for me, but I've never been a fan of icing alone, so it's the combo of the icing and the cake that make this group my favorite. To add, I also find the Funk Bros to be an ingredient of the cake. I find the Supremes a tad less appealing when not fronting that marvelous band. [["Love Is Here and Now You're Gone", not a Funk Bros cut, is easily in my top 5 favorite Supremes hits, go figure.)
    Diana on Stax? That's an interesting one. I could hear Diana doing some of Carla Thomas' material like COMFORT ME, B-A-B-Y, and SOMETHING GOOD IS GONNA HAPPEN TO YOU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Diana on Stax? That's an interesting one. I could hear Diana doing some of Carla Thomas' material like COMFORT ME, B-A-B-Y, and SOMETHING GOOD IS GONNA HAPPEN TO YOU.
    Wouldn't that be something? I once offered in the forum that Diana vocally matured to the point that I think it's a mistake to suggest that she wouldn't have been able to fit in over at Stax. Remember, the vocal approach that Diana took during the hitmaking years was often far different from what she walked through the door with. She tore through "Right Way" with a force that rivals some of the other ladies at Motown who are considered so called more "soulful". Had Diana, for whatever reason, gone to Stax around that time, it's an interesting thought to ponder what she may have accomplished there. Obviously doubtful she would've become what she eventually became, as I don't think anyone at Stax was thinking like Gordy, but we may have still known her name. Flo and Mary for sure would've probably benefitted more as lead singers at a place like Stax. All conjecture, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Wouldn't that be something? I once offered in the forum that Diana vocally matured to the point that I think it's a mistake to suggest that she wouldn't have been able to fit in over at Stax. Remember, the vocal approach that Diana took during the hitmaking years was often far different from what she walked through the door with. She tore through "Right Way" with a force that rivals some of the other ladies at Motown who are considered so called more "soulful". Had Diana, for whatever reason, gone to Stax around that time, it's an interesting thought to ponder what she may have accomplished there. Obviously doubtful she would've become what she eventually became, as I don't think anyone at Stax was thinking like Gordy, but we may have still known her name. Flo and Mary for sure would've probably benefitted more as lead singers at a place like Stax. All conjecture, of course.
    Interesting conjecture, though.

    Ironically, Stax president Al Bell has said on a few occasions that he had hopes that Carla could gain the kind of success that Diana did, thinking that the Stax sound might have been too rough for her voice. To that end, her recordings seemed to become more pop-ish as the years went by. And the label also went all out, arranging a showcase for Carla at the Bohemian Caverns, where she recorded a live set with standards, songs like MAS QUE NADA, but few of her own hits. Unfortunately, the set remained unreleased for 30 years or more, which must have been a huge disappointment for Carla.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    Wouldn't that be something? I once offered in the forum that Diana vocally matured to the point that I think it's a mistake to suggest that she wouldn't have been able to fit in over at Stax. Remember, the vocal approach that Diana took during the hitmaking years was often far different from what she walked through the door with. She tore through "Right Way" with a force that rivals some of the other ladies at Motown who are considered so called more "soulful". Had Diana, for whatever reason, gone to Stax around that time, it's an interesting thought to ponder what she may have accomplished there. Obviously doubtful she would've become what she eventually became, as I don't think anyone at Stax was thinking like Gordy, but we may have still known her name. Flo and Mary for sure would've probably benefitted more as lead singers at a place like Stax. All conjecture, of course.
    I never thought those early Supremes singles such as “Let Me Go The Right Way” captured the essence or beauty of the Ross voice. Possibly the reason why they never took off. For that reason alone l can’t imagine Diana and Stax being a musical match made in heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I never thought those early Supremes singles such as “Let Me Go The Right Way” captured the essence or beauty of the Ross voice. Possibly the reason why they never took off. For that reason alone l can’t imagine Diana and Stax being a musical match made in heaven.
    Agreed. I don't think her voice would have been a good fit for Stax. Motown eventually played to Diana's vocal strengths and i am not sure Stax would have been so careful and patient in developing her raw but obvious potential.
    Motown was the perfect home for her in those crucial early days of her development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Interesting conjecture, though.

    Ironically, Stax president Al Bell has said on a few occasions that he had hopes that Carla could gain the kind of success that Diana did, thinking that the Stax sound might have been too rough for her voice. To that end, her recordings seemed to become more pop-ish as the years went by. And the label also went all out, arranging a showcase for Carla at the Bohemian Caverns, where she recorded a live set with standards, songs like MAS QUE NADA, but few of her own hits. Unfortunately, the set remained unreleased for 30 years or more, which must have been a huge disappointment for Carla.
    Interesting regarding Carla. Never knew that. I'm guessing though, that without Diana and the Supremes as a blueprint, Al may not have thought of Carla in those terms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie9 View Post
    I never thought those early Supremes singles such as “Let Me Go The Right Way” captured the essence or beauty of the Ross voice. Possibly the reason why they never took off. For that reason alone l can’t imagine Diana and Stax being a musical match made in heaven.
    For me "Right Way" is one of her best vocal moments. Shows just how versatile she is. She really could sing just about anything. A shame that Gordy attempted to coach the more forceful side of her voice out. I listen to "Right Way" and then I listen to "Honey Boy" and think "what a waste".

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    For me "Right Way" is one of her best vocal moments. Shows just how versatile she is. She really could sing just about anything. A shame that Gordy attempted to coach the more forceful side of her voice out. I listen to "Right Way" and then I listen to "Honey Boy" and think "what a waste".
    Let Me Go has a definite stronger R&B vibe to it. While there's nothing wrong with that, that wasn't Gordy's goal. he had stated that from the beginning, he wanted to find a female pop singer that could appeal to whites and blacks, that could sing MOR songs and move into high $ club work. That's part of the reason why Mabel John [[a close personal friend before during and after her tenure at Motown) left the label. she just wasn't quite the right sound for him

    Let Me Go is a great tune and fun early song for the girls. I actually listen to it quite a bit, along with You Bring Back. But both are a much rougher sound than even Lovelight. much less Baby Love.

    this rougher sound IMO fit Martha's or Gladys' vocal styles better.

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    But he was the one who produced "Let Me Go the Right Way". So if his goal was always this fabled crossover female, and he had set his sights on Diana for the job, why cut and release and apparently heavily promote it?

    He did obviously push her in a different direction later on vocally, but she didn't always do a "Honey Boy" style vocal. Her lead on "You Can't Hurry Love" is as soulful as anything else they had done. She ripped the shit out of those lyrics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RanRan79 View Post
    But he was the one who produced "Let Me Go the Right Way". So if his goal was always this fabled crossover female, and he had set his sights on Diana for the job, why cut and release and apparently heavily promote it?

    He did obviously push her in a different direction later on vocally, but she didn't always do a "Honey Boy" style vocal. Her lead on "You Can't Hurry Love" is as soulful as anything else they had done. She ripped the shit out of those lyrics.
    i think the idea in 62 was to just get SOMETHING to click with the Supremes. It wasn't that Berry would never product anything but vanilla MOR. i just thing long term, the sound and aggressiveness of LMGTRW wasn't what he was looking for. apparently, according to his bio, he mixed and mixed and mixed that single. continually tinkering with it.

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