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  1. #1

    THe Supremes in Chile 1977


  2. #2
    Who is on the right in this in the opening song? Left of Mary is Cindy. Whoever it is, her lead on Love Child needed some work.

    If memory serves this was the concert after they disbanded, but Mary and Pedro were contractually obligated? Correct?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    Who is on the right in this in the opening song? Left of Mary is Cindy. Whoever it is, her lead on Love Child needed some work.

    If memory serves this was the concert after they disbanded, but Mary and Pedro were contractually obligated? Correct?
    Debbie Sharpe?

  4. #4
    They had to do it or get sued
    Quote Originally Posted by thanxal View Post
    Who is on the right in this in the opening song? Left of Mary is Cindy. Whoever it is, her lead on Love Child needed some work.

    If memory serves this was the concert after they disbanded, but Mary and Pedro were contractually obligated? Correct?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    They had to do it or get sued
    Yes, I recall that. Just couldn't recall who joined Mary and Cindy. Debbie Sharpe sounds correct... don't get old. Your memory goes!

  6. #6
    Yes, Debbie Sharpe. Very good show with Mary 7 months pregnant, Cindy out of the group for over a year and Debbie filling in. I remembered reading they were doing the choreography in the aisle of the plane as they went down to South America.

  7. #7
    Cindy was always there to the rescue but { I hope she was paid fairly for it }. This is not bad but not the worst I have heard. I know this was last minute but I would have given more leads to Cindy especially on the 60 songs.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    They had to do it or get sued

    I donít believe that at all. Itís absurd to. Eli eve that Motown booked these dates months after they broke up, didnít tell them, then made a group that no longer exists fulfill contracts for the shows. If anybody would have been sued, it wouldíve been Sherry and Linda because at the time they were the Supremes. Certainly Sherry and Sue say would have fulfilled the dates if they were going to get sued, but they chose not to. Why? Because it isnít true - like a lot of things in that book.

    I think Pedro thought he would pull a fast one and book them way down in South America thinking Motown wouldnít hear about it.

    thus type of low-end performance is exactly what Motown was trying to avoid with The Supremes franchise.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I donít believe that at all. Itís absurd to. Eli eve that Motown booked these dates months after they broke up, didnít tell them, then made a group that no longer exists fulfill contracts for the shows. If anybody would have been sued, it wouldíve been Sherry and Linda because at the time they were the Supremes. Certainly Sherry and Sue say would have fulfilled the dates if they were going to get sued, but they chose not to. Why? Because it isnít true - like a lot of things in that book.

    I think Pedro thought he would pull a fast one and book them way down in South America thinking Motown wouldnít hear about it.

    thus type of low-end performance is exactly what Motown was trying to avoid with The Supremes franchise.
    I think that Mary decided to leave the group and that shows are booked in advance. Mary probably thought that Motown would cancel the shows or have Scherrie & Susaye with a third member do them as the new Supremes, as it was planned at that time to go on. Since bookings were probably done through Supremes Inc. they would be sued and not Motown. I don't see this a low end but rather Mary stepped up beautifully pretty quickly, Cindy was her amazing self and Debbie did well on short notice. I don't see what Lynda would have to do with it, as she had been gone for 4 years by 1977. In 1977, Motown could care less about the Supremes. I disagree Motown was avoiding a "low end" performance, this was rather well done on the fly. If Motown was concerned, why have they let Sounds of the Supremes go on? Plus, the musicians are far superior to the karaoke musicians that the FLOs sometimes used. Also, they are called Mary Wilson of the Supremes if you listen. Mary did an admirable job in her first solo performances here. Of course, Pedro probably mismanaged something here but Motown's treatment of Mary since 1973 was pretty rough considering she was so loyal to the company. I don't think any of us know the real story of this tour, but I personally find the performance very enjoyable for one put together so quickly.

  10. #10
    I actually enjoyed this too. I think the hit medley seemed a bit slower paste unlike how they did it in the final few years. Also the paste of You're my driving wheel seemed a bit better. I think Mary did a good job on lead and Debbie and Cindy on background considering neither sang on the recorded version. The only song I didn't like was Stoned Love and that's my all time favourite Supremes song.

    I think Mary had to do the shows because she needed the money probably straight away. When did she start recording her songs for her solo album? I guess she had not recorded anything so soon after she left the Supremes. Did we ever hear from either Scherrie or Susaye about this event?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Mary looks really stunning here and does an admirable job considering the difficult circumstances. I saw them the following year at The London Palladium with Karen Ragland replacing Cindy. It was a good concert, and one the audience really seemed to enjoy. Worth noting that Mary seems a little less frantic here as on some other shows.
    It would be really interesting to know all the legal facts and details ascertained to this tour.

  12. #12
    She should have never replaced Cindy with Karen lol. What was Cindy doing at that time? Sure it would have helped her finances. Yes the frantic routines do my head in and it seems much better on this show. The let yourself go clip of the same show is also better (But nothing beats Scherrie's recorded version).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I don’t believe that at all. It’s absurd to. Eli eve that Motown booked these dates months after they broke up, didn’t tell them, then made a group that no longer exists fulfill contracts for the shows. If anybody would have been sued, it would’ve been Sherry and Linda because at the time they were the Supremes. Certainly Sherry and Sue say would have fulfilled the dates if they were going to get sued, but they chose not to. Why? Because it isn’t true - like a lot of things in that book.

    I think Pedro thought he would pull a fast one and book them way down in South America thinking Motown wouldn’t hear about it.

    thus type of low-end performance is exactly what Motown was trying to avoid with The Supremes franchise.
    Maniac - we're in agreement again

    Mary's whole exit from the Supremes was basically a mess. I believe when she announced she was leaving in Dec 76 or so she was expecting motown to give her a solo contract. Yet she was still under contract to motown as a Supreme. motown never had any interest in her as a vocalist so clearly they weren't going to bother with a solo contract in 77. I'd guess their POV was "either be a supreme or be gone."

    Several fans on here have mentioned that when the girls appeared on the Mike Douglas show and Mary dropped the bomb that Marvin was producing her solo lp, motown AND Marvin flipped out. cuz it wasn't true and mary hoped that by publicly announcing it, she could convince them.

    I've always believed that Mary and/or Pedro booked the S America tour simply for the money and figured they'd get away with it. Again according to some of the longtime fans, after mary left and things DIDN'T happen with her solo deal, she wanted to return to the Supremes. Scherrie and Susaye said sure but absolutely NO Pedro.

  14. #14
    Just because you don’t believe it doesn’t mean it’s false
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    I don’t believe that at all. It’s absurd to. Eli eve that Motown booked these dates months after they broke up, didn’t tell them, then made a group that no longer exists fulfill contracts for the shows. If anybody would have been sued, it would’ve been Sherry and Linda because at the time they were the Supremes. Certainly Sherry and Sue say would have fulfilled the dates if they were going to get sued, but they chose not to. Why? Because it isn’t true - like a lot of things in that book.

    I think Pedro thought he would pull a fast one and book them way down in South America thinking Motown wouldn’t hear about it.

    thus type of low-end performance is exactly what Motown was trying to avoid with The Supremes franchise.

  15. #15
    I’ll put this in another way, do you really think she wanted to do this being close to her due date when Mary can be at home getting ready to deliver her baby? And I’ve said this before I think Pedro pushed for Mary to go solo.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Maniac - we're in agreement again

    Mary's whole exit from the Supremes was basically a mess. I believe when she announced she was leaving in Dec 76 or so she was expecting motown to give her a solo contract. Yet she was still under contract to motown as a Supreme. motown never had any interest in her as a vocalist so clearly they weren't going to bother with a solo contract in 77. I'd guess their POV was "either be a supreme or be gone."

    Several fans on here have mentioned that when the girls appeared on the Mike Douglas show and Mary dropped the bomb that Marvin was producing her solo lp, motown AND Marvin flipped out. cuz it wasn't true and mary hoped that by publicly announcing it, she could convince them.

    I've always believed that Mary and/or Pedro booked the S America tour simply for the money and figured they'd get away with it. Again according to some of the longtime fans, after mary left and things DIDN'T happen with her solo deal, she wanted to return to the Supremes. Scherrie and Susaye said sure but absolutely NO Pedro.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    Maniac - we're in agreement again

    Mary's whole exit from the Supremes was basically a mess. I believe when she announced she was leaving in Dec 76 or so she was expecting motown to give her a solo contract. Yet she was still under contract to motown as a Supreme. motown never had any interest in her as a vocalist so clearly they weren't going to bother with a solo contract in 77. I'd guess their POV was "either be a supreme or be gone."

    Several fans on here have mentioned that when the girls appeared on the Mike Douglas show and Mary dropped the bomb that Marvin was producing her solo lp, motown AND Marvin flipped out. cuz it wasn't true and mary hoped that by publicly announcing it, she could convince them.

    I've always believed that Mary and/or Pedro booked the S America tour simply for the money and figured they'd get away with it. Again according to some of the longtime fans, after mary left and things DIDN'T happen with her solo deal, she wanted to return to the Supremes. Scherrie and Susaye said sure but absolutely NO Pedro.
    I have several articles from that time that say Pedro was managing Marvin, Marvin was producing Mary's solo LP, and the biggest lulu being that Marvin and Mary were going to tour together as "The Gentleman and the Lady".

    I think there was a lot of grasping at straws, trying to keep Mary's name in the paper.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by captainjames View Post
    Cindy was always there to the rescue but { I hope she was paid fairly for it }. This is not bad but not the worst I have heard. I know this was last minute but I would have given more leads to Cindy especially on the 60 songs.
    Always found it funny that Cindy was fired by Pedro in 1976 only to be "rehired" by Mary in 1977. That's dedication to a friend. I wonder if Cindy ever thought of staying on as a backup?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I have several articles from that time that say Pedro was managing Marvin, Marvin was producing Mary's solo LP, and the biggest lulu being that Marvin and Mary were going to tour together as "The Gentleman and the Lady".

    I think there was a lot of grasping at straws, trying to keep Mary's name in the paper.
    agreed. Mary states in Sup Faith that Pedro wasn't particularly aligned with Motown. And fans have described him basically as an opportunistic gigolo. so yeah, i can imagine him going rouge and putting out false stories or leads, just to try and generate publicity.

    and i've not heard of any negotiations in early 77 of Mary/Pedro trying to outline a solo deal and contract with motown. i don't think there was one to work out! they didn't want her. and now she had announced her departure from the Sups and had nowhere to go

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    I’ll put this in another way, do you really think she wanted to do this being close to her due date when Mary can be at home getting ready to deliver her baby? And I’ve said this before I think Pedro pushed for Mary to go solo.
    oh i completely agree and Pedro was the one really pushing her and convincing her that she'd be a huge pop star. As for arranging the dates, yeah that was probably pedro too. he was the manager and they needed money.

    but this was mary's bed to lay in. she was the one that brought him in, that accepted him as manager and followed along. she wasn't a naive 16 year old girl like she was in 1960 when the Primettes were courting Motown. She was 32 and had been in the business for 17 years. those are some colossally huge mistakes to be making after working in an industry and learning things over the course of nearly 2 decades

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Always found it funny that Cindy was fired by Pedro in 1976 only to be "rehired" by Mary in 1977. That's dedication to a friend. I wonder if Cindy ever thought of staying on as a backup?
    cindy has always been described as a sweet and lovely person, which i believe she is (not having met her of course). in 74 when she came back, i think it was with excitement. she had been a Supreme for 5 years so she had definitely committed and invested a lot. this second time though, i'm assuming it was more of Cindy's willingness to just help a friend.

    at this time, Mary was in dire straits. she had a huge mansion, staff on payroll, a husband that spent lavishly. She also had practically $0 income. Walking and HE were the only releases since early 72 that song anything of worth. Sure Mary continued to earn royalties from the big hits and from releases like Anthology. But she would have had a LOT of expenses to support and she and the Sups had long since been making the bulk of their money from live appearances. So off to S Amer we go! but she needs singers and asked (or perhaps begged!) Cindy to come back

  21. #21
    Since you brought it up, Sup, I remember being stunned while reading Supreme Faith that Mary wrote page after page after page about how the Supremes were not making money by 1972, how they owed her money, blah blah blah and the next thing you know she's talking about buying a 24 room mansion! I was like, what? I don't like seeing anyone in financial trouble, i really don't, but when I read that about the mansion I was just shocked. Who needs 24 rooms, especially when you are touring most of the year, especially when you say you are making almost no money? Was it just ego? Fronting? This is why so many rock stars make millions but then are broke a year later.

  22. #22
    She got the money by selling her houses in Detroit and the house in the Hollywood hills. Remember they had Turkessa, Willie, Pedro’s brother and sister.
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Since you brought it up, Sup, I remember being stunned while reading Supreme Faith that Mary wrote page after page after page about how the Supremes were not making money by 1972, how they owed her money, blah blah blah and the next thing you know she's talking about buying a 24 room mansion! I was like, what? I don't like seeing anyone in financial trouble, i really don't, but when I read that about the mansion I was just shocked. Who needs 24 rooms, especially when you are touring most of the year, especially when you say you are making almost no money? Was it just ego? Fronting? This is why so many rock stars make millions but then are broke a year later.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyC View Post
    Since you brought it up, Sup, I remember being stunned while reading Supreme Faith that Mary wrote page after page after page about how the Supremes were not making money by 1972, how they owed her money, blah blah blah and the next thing you know she's talking about buying a 24 room mansion! I was like, what? I don't like seeing anyone in financial trouble, i really don't, but when I read that about the mansion I was just shocked. Who needs 24 rooms, especially when you are touring most of the year, especially when you say you are making almost no money? Was it just ego? Fronting? This is why so many rock stars make millions but then are broke a year later.
    she does at least acknowledge in the book that they probably shouldn't have bought it and to keep up with the expenses she had to tour constantly. She also says that this house was beautiful and definitely kept up her image of being super rich and super glamorous.

    but yeah, an extremely foolish financial decision to make. and it's not like the Supremes had only just run into some trouble on the charts. they had basically been out of the general public consciousness for years.

  24. #24
    I'm surprised Cindy came back after being fired a year earlier.

    This is really confusing though. This was supposed to be Mary Wilson going solo right? But Cindy and Debbie are very much up front and it seems like a group to me. Not Mary and her backup singers. So Mary's true solo debut was 1979 then? It makes sense when years later Cindy says she was with the group till 1977.

  25. #25
    I just watched the beginning...Someday.. I quite liked the backing, they were the most prominent I've heard and they were interesting and well executed. You could actually hear Cindy and the other singer harmonized well with Cindy...this could have been a good grouping, except Mary doesn't have a dynamic voice for these songs, unfortunately.
    I've always thought she should have tried some of Nina Simone's catalogue.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    I'm surprised Cindy came back after being fired a year earlier.

    This is really confusing though. This was supposed to be Mary Wilson going solo right? But Cindy and Debbie are very much up front and it seems like a group to me. Not Mary and her backup singers. So Mary's true solo debut was 1979 then? It makes sense when years later Cindy says she was with the group till 1977.
    The demise of the Supremes was always confusing to me too. Mary made her farewell performance with the group in a foreign country and then it wound up being the farewell performance of the group. I read the below article a few years ago, and it shed a little light on the subject, but it is still confusing.

    Mary Wilson of The Supremes
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    Following an exhausting European tour in early 1977, "The Supremes," then consisting of original member Mary Wilson, Scherrie Payne, and Susaye Greene played their final venue at the Drury Lane Theatre in London, England on Sunday June 12, 1977. The concert was intially planned only as Mary Wilson's Farewell show, with Payne and Greene planning to continue the group with a new third member in her place. Within a month however, Wilson was rehearsing two more women to tour as a new group of "Supremes."

    A New Beginning


    According to Wilson, with hershe departure, Motown had let "The Supremes" go on hiatus despite the group still having several South American tour-dates to complete. At the time, Scherrie and Susaye had not yet found a replacement singer, and were unable to complete the dates themselves. They chose not to continue with Mary because they disagreed with Pedro on the handling of the group. Pedro had been acting as the group's manager since the mid-70's. At the time Mary was still signed to Motown as a member of "The Supremes," and if they did not fulfill these contracts, the venues would sue. Mary and Pedero being in charge of the group at that time, and in charge of all the bookings, either had to know these dates were on the books, or accepted them because the money was good and couldn't afford to not attend. Even after several years of limited success, the Suprems still had a draw for live performances. Therefore, at seven months pregnant, with only a couple of days to prepare, and still not having fully recovered from the European tour, Wilson took it upon herself to hire new singers, not carrying anything about Scherrie and Susaye continuing with The Supremes without her. Initially she had wanted to hire former Supreme, Lynda Laurence. But unfortunately, Laurence was unable to return. According to Lynda, she was never asked. Cindy Birdsong, whom was then still signed to Motown as a member of The Supremes as well, was happy to go along, bringing her son David along with her. Meanwhile, through Reggie Wilkins a former employee, Mary found singer Deborah "Debbie Sharpe." Debbie had sung professionally with the "Oral Roberts World Action Singers," and therefore had both concert and television experience. Despite her having left "The Supremes" previously in the spring of 1976, Birdsong was also still contractually signed to Motown as a member of "The Supremes." The three-week tour began in Caracas, Venezuela, and was composed of mostly small clubs. According to Wilson every minute was nerve-racking. Neither the gowns nor the musicians' music charts/sheets had arrived by the time they reached the venue. Shortly after they arrived, Mary received word that Motown did not approve of her taking out another group of "Supremes," even though they were not billed as "The Supremes." Prior to the tour, her husband and manager, Pedro Ferrer had warned all promoters and television executives not to announce the trio as "The Supremes" but as "Mary Wilson of The Supremes." However, despite the company's displeasure and the fact that it owned the rights/distribution rights to the name "Supremes," Motown never cancelled the tour.

    The Two Karens
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    Later that year Mary began auditioning new background singers, one of which was soul singer Merry Clayton (of "Dirty Dancing" soundtrack fame) However, thinking Clayton too vocally advanced to be singing back-up, in the end, she auditioned and hired Karen Jackson, a telephone operator who had sung in a few local bands. In the end, Karen became one of Mary's most faithful background singers. She then hired Kaaren Ragland, an actress and singer from Virginia. According to Mary, "both were single, atrractive, and dedicated." She and Cindy rehearsed them for a year end's tour of Europe, that was composed of dates at officers' clubs and swank discos. Meanwhile, Mary was still in and pursuing legal battles with Motown over her use of the name "Supremes." From Mary's perspective, she was a solo artist with two background singles. However, from Motown's perspective Mary was touring around a competing group of "Supremes" to the Scherrie and Susaye-grounded Supremes they were planning to continue with.

    Solo Career With Motown
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    Mary's lawsuits with Motown were dropped in 1978. Part of the negotiation was that she receive a solo recording contract with the sompany. This deal resulted in her first solo album, 1979's Disco-infused "Mary Wilson." Neither of Mary's touring background singers appeared on the record. Unfortunately, neither the album nor its accompanying singles (1979's "Red Hot," and 1980's "Pick Up The Pieces") made much impact on the national charts. Mary made her U.S. solo debut at the New York, New York Club in Manhattan, only a few weeks following the album's release to glowing reviews. Soon afterwards, she began recording new solo material with Gus Dudgeon whom had been greatly responsible for several of Sir Elton John's biggest hits. Motown however, was displeased with the 4 completed tracks which were composed of rock tunes and ballads. According to Mary, the company told her that nobody was doing ballads at the time, and they could only release Disco music, and with that they showed her the door. After 19 years with the company, they officially let her go in 1980.

    Future
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    In 1980, without a record label, Mary went back out on the road; this time with Karen Jackson and Gloria Scott. They were then billed as "The Supremes' Mary Wilson." Together they toured such far off and exotic places as Bahrain, Sharja, Muscat, and Saudi Arabia. The trio also appeared on many international television shows. Now with Mary's first solo album having been released, several songs from the studio project were now incorporated into the show, most notably her 1979 charter, "Red Hot" and its follow-up, "Midnight Dancer." Over the years, many others came and went including Debbie Crofton and Robin Alexander. The self-titled LP is considered a flop. It sold poorly and Motown dropped her from their label never to resign her again. They finally got rid of her and the trouble she caused them. Constantly in lawsuits with Motown, never winning any of them. Her former partners, Scherie & Susaye released an LP the next year, which sold twice as many copies as Mary's solo LP, and was critically successful though not commercially so.



  27. #27
    Thanks for posting that overview. There's a lot of conflicting information from all sides involved. I see some of the posters that read "The Supremes with Mary Wilson". I'm sorry but that's really no different than "Diana Ross and The Supremes". I think Mary had it with Scherrie and Susaye challenging her and thought she could pull off another Supremes grouping with her being 98% of the focus this time. Again no different than the Supremes from 1967-1969.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99 View Post
    I think that Mary decided to leave the group and that shows are booked in advance. Mary probably thought that Motown would cancel the shows or have Scherrie & Susaye with a third member do them as the new Supremes, as it was planned at that time to go on. Since bookings were probably done through Supremes Inc. they would be sued and not Motown. I don't see this a low end but rather Mary stepped up beautifully pretty quickly, Cindy was her amazing self and Debbie did well on short notice. I don't see what Lynda would have to do with it, as she had been gone for 4 years by 1977. In 1977, Motown could care less about the Supremes. I disagree Motown was avoiding a "low end" performance, this was rather well done on the fly. If Motown was concerned, why have they let Sounds of the Supremes go on? Plus, the musicians are far superior to the karaoke musicians that the FLOs sometimes used. Also, they are called Mary Wilson of the Supremes if you listen. Mary did an admirable job in her first solo performances here. Of course, Pedro probably mismanaged something here but Motown's treatment of Mary since 1973 was pretty rough considering she was so loyal to the company. I don't think any of us know the real story of this tour, but I personally find the performance very enjoyable for one put together so quickly.
    This was a decade before the flos or sounds of the Supremes so no comparisons are warranted. Motown cannot control the use of the word Supremes but they can and do on the right control to control ďthe Supremes ďwhich is how mary was billing that group. Mary was no longer a supreme and if bookings were made previously through Supremes Inc., and mary was in charge of Supremes cooperated, then they wouldíve known a long time in advance about these dates. It doesnít make any sense whatsoever that Motown would have booked these dates but mary wouldíve been responsible for playing them. Itís preposterous.

    as for the quality of the performance, it was fine but nothing special. And nowhere near as good as Mary Sherry and Sue say. And if they werenít getting anywhere with their records or live performances, this half-baked wannabe was certainly not going to promote the group into the stratosphere. Three women getting up and singing Supremes songs fairly well is a dime a dozen. Thereís probably 500,000 combinations you could do it just as well as those three did. The people who make it, the people who are successful, the people who compel audiences to purchase their performances are light years ahead of this performance. Itís just my opinion, and I donít wish any harm to any of the Supremes, but I didnít see or hear anything special on that stage. And letís Face it, itís not like any of those three women ever garnered more fans than they had that night. MaryĎs solo success is based solely on her having once been a supreme and she has become a great entertainer in her genre. That had not happened yet in this clip. And I can see Why Motown would not want them out there pretending to be something they were notÖ Which was, ďThe Supremes ď

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Just because you don’t believe it doesn’t mean it’s false
    Absolutely, it’s just my read I apologize if I presented my thoughts as faCt instead of opinion. It’s extremely fishy, and illogical. And, if you were to ask Sherry pain about it today, or is Susaye, I have a feeling they would have a different version of the events that took place. I know for a fact Scherrie would. But then again, that wouldn’t make it true either. It would just be one persons word versus another persons word. But sometimes that’s where logic and common sense come in.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    I'm surprised Cindy came back after being fired a year earlier.

    This is really confusing though. This was supposed to be Mary Wilson going solo right? But Cindy and Debbie are very much up front and it seems like a group to me. Not Mary and her backup singers. So Mary's true solo debut was 1979 then? It makes sense when years later Cindy says she was with the group till 1977.
    these might have been mary's first solo gigs, in the technical sense. technically she was still under contract to motown as a supreme. just because she did a "Farewell" in drury didn't cancel or negate her contract. and motown hadn't offered her a solo contract nor had they replaced her in the Supremes.

    Mary basically took the music charts from her later day performances with S and S and replaced them with C and Debbie. which i'd assume was in violation of their official contracts with motown and the supremes

    MotownManiac is absolutely right that this is extremely fishy. Had motown officially scheduled the dates, they could have arranged for another group to perform or else cancel them. and even if Sups Inc and Mary/Pedro set these dates, all performance contracts have some sort of cancelation or exit clause. sure there might be a penalty fee to the promoter but it can be done

    while i do not personally have the exact contracts nor was i there at the time, IMO this situation was the result of Pedro's and Mary's managerial ineptitude. They figured they could get away with it and were wrong. When they returned to the states from this tour, Mary and motown began their legal issues

  31. #31
    Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. If I’m correct the William Morris agency handled their bookings most likely in junction with Motown and Supremes inc. and most tours were booked months in advance. clearly Motown wasn’t bothered Land Scherrie and Sunday didn’t have a third member yet to do the tour so it came down to Mary. Like I said before it’s easy to judge when you’re on the outside looking in. But in those situations you had to make a snap decision and hope it goes your way.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    these might have been mary's first solo gigs, in the technical sense. technically she was still under contract to motown as a supreme. just because she did a "Farewell" in drury didn't cancel or negate her contract. and motown hadn't offered her a solo contract nor had they replaced her in the Supremes.

    Mary basically took the music charts from her later day performances with S and S and replaced them with C and Debbie. which i'd assume was in violation of their official contracts with motown and the supremes

    MotownManiac is absolutely right that this is extremely fishy. Had motown officially scheduled the dates, they could have arranged for another group to perform or else cancel them. and even if Sups Inc and Mary/Pedro set these dates, all performance contracts have some sort of cancelation or exit clause. sure there might be a penalty fee to the promoter but it can be done

    while i do not personally have the exact contracts nor was i there at the time, IMO this situation was the result of Pedro's and Mary's managerial ineptitude. They figured they could get away with it and were wrong. When they returned to the states from this tour, Mary and motown began their legal issues

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    oh i completely agree and Pedro was the one really pushing her and convincing her that she'd be a huge pop star. As for arranging the dates, yeah that was probably pedro too. he was the manager and they needed money.

    but this was mary's bed to lay in. she was the one that brought him in, that accepted him as manager and followed along. she wasn't a naive 16 year old girl like she was in 1960 when the Primettes were courting Motown. She was 32 and had been in the business for 17 years. those are some colossally huge mistakes to be making after working in an industry and learning things over the course of nearly 2 decades
    she was also in an abusive relationship with coercive control . Thousands of women worldwide take years to break free and leave these kind of relationships.

    they also go along with what the abuser says to keep them sweet so thereís no more abuse.

  33. #33
    I always was under the impression Mary asked Lynda to join the tour, but Lynda wanted too much $$$. What was Lynda doing at the time to turn down anything?

    Also, doesn't the story go that S and S always wanted Joyce as their third? So I'm not sure why it's eluded that they didn't have a third member. On the flip side, wasn't Joyce still in Dawn in 1977?

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    Always found it funny that Cindy was fired by Pedro in 1976 only to be "rehired" by Mary in 1977. That's dedication to a friend. I wonder if Cindy ever thought of staying on as a backup?
    Ive always said Cindy Birdsong is probably the nicest Supreme ever.

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I always was under the impression Mary asked Lynda to join the tour, but Lynda wanted too much $$$. What was Lynda doing at the time to turn down anything?

    Also, doesn't the story go that S and S always wanted Joyce as their third? So I'm not sure why it's eluded that they didn't have a third member. On the flip side, wasn't Joyce still in Dawn in 1977?
    I believe Mary wrote in SUPREME FAITH that Lynda wanted too much money to do the tour.

    Re Joyce, I don't know if they always wanted her as the third. But she was the one they eventually picked, until Motown decided that the group would be retired. Dawn broke up in 1977 so she was available.

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by marybrewster View Post
    I always was under the impression Mary asked Lynda to join the tour, but Lynda wanted too much $$$. What was Lynda doing at the time to turn down anything?

    Also, doesn't the story go that S and S always wanted Joyce as their third? So I'm not sure why it's eluded that they didn't have a third member. On the flip side, wasn't Joyce still in Dawn in 1977?
    lynda was doing studio work throughout this time. so she certainly wasn't destitute. and don't forget, she had already worked with mary but would now be working FOR mary. a very, very different scenario. plus you had pedro in the mess. she would most likely have also known that Mary just LEFT the supremes and now was trying to regroup and do a last-minute tour

    it could very well be that lynda simply threw out a high offer just to put it out there. knowing just how much of clusterfuck this tour would be, to put up with that nonsense she probably said "if you give me the sky, then sure. i'll grin and bear it"

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. If Iím correct the William Morris agency handled their bookings most likely in junction with Motown and Supremes inc. and most tours were booked months in advance. clearly Motown wasnít bothered Land Scherrie and Sunday didnít have a third member yet to do the tour so it came down to Mary. Like I said before itís easy to judge when youíre on the outside looking in. But in those situations you had to make a snap decision and hope it goes your way.
    and sometimes fabrication makes more sense than the truth. Below is an example of Mary making up an entire scenario that is nothing but BS. In dream girl she states that after Johnny Carson asked them some questions Diana tried to monopolize the interview and flow had had enough and from then on monopolize the interview giving truthful and entertaining answers to all of JohnnyĎs questions. If you look at the clip below you will see that that isnít true. And this isnít the kind of thing like oh I thought we had six records when really we had 10 this is making up an entire scenario of who said what and when and how that never existed didnít even come close to existing she just made it up. Course thereís other examples in the books I donít want to go into a bunch of details because this is not about with this thread is about - that being said, I have never believed one word of this story about South America, and if we could get Sherry or Sue say or lynda to come on this forum they would probably have a surprising thing or two to say about this.

    Off-topic: doesnít Mary look absolutely fantastic in this clip??? The group is wonderful and performing great but Mary just looks like $10 billion

    https://youtu.be/LspB2rJHXLk

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    and sometimes fabrication makes more sense than the truth. Below is an example of Mary making up an entire scenario that is nothing but BS. In dream girl she states that after Johnny Carson asked them some questions Diana tried to monopolize the interview and flow had had enough and from then on monopolize the interview giving truthful and entertaining answers to all of JohnnyĎs questions. If you look at the clip below you will see that that isnít true. And this isnít the kind of thing like oh I thought we had six records when really we had 10 this is making up an entire scenario of who said what and when and how that never existed didnít even come close to existing she just made it up. Course thereís other examples in the books I donít want to go into a bunch of details because this is not about with this thread is about - that being said, I have never believed one word of this story about South America, and if we could get Sherry or Sue say or lynda to come on this forum they would probably have a surprising thing or two to say about this.

    Off-topic: doesnít Mary look absolutely fantastic in this clip??? The group is wonderful and performing great but Mary just looks like $10 billion

    https://youtu.be/LspB2rJHXLk
    To be fair The Supremes were on several TV shows during that period when Flo came back that we still haven't seen. I know one being the Mike Douglas Show. Its possible it may have been one of those other appearances they made where Flo monopolized the whole interview and Mary just remembered wrong thinking it was Johnny Carson.

  39. #39
    And if if’s and but’s were candy and nuts we all have a merry Christmas. One unfair thing that we fans do is to expect that the girls to remember every detail moment in their vast history. They’ve given so many interviews in short spurts that some events will get blurred. I’ve seen it with my parents so what makes you think the girls are any different.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    and sometimes fabrication makes more sense than the truth. Below is an example of Mary making up an entire scenario that is nothing but BS. In dream girl she states that after Johnny Carson asked them some questions Diana tried to monopolize the interview and flow had had enough and from then on monopolize the interview giving truthful and entertaining answers to all of Johnny‘s questions. If you look at the clip below you will see that that isn’t true. And this isn’t the kind of thing like oh I thought we had six records when really we had 10 this is making up an entire scenario of who said what and when and how that never existed didn’t even come close to existing she just made it up. Course there’s other examples in the books I don’t want to go into a bunch of details because this is not about with this thread is about - that being said, I have never believed one word of this story about South America, and if we could get Sherry or Sue say or lynda to come on this forum they would probably have a surprising thing or two to say about this.

    Off-topic: doesn’t Mary look absolutely fantastic in this clip??? The group is wonderful and performing great but Mary just looks like $10 billion

    https://youtu.be/LspB2rJHXLk

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    To be fair The Supremes were on several TV shows during that period when Flo came back that we still haven't seen. I know one being the Mike Douglas Show. Its possible it may have been one of those other appearances they made where Flo monopolized the whole interview and Mary just remembered wrong thinking it was Johnny Carson.
    yeah but we're not talking about Mary mentioning this offhand at some cocktail party. she's writing her autobiography and was also positioning this whole book as a rather harsh DR expose. She should have taken the effort to diligently research the specific shows and moments she wanted to use. basically the point of this specific incident (at least the way i see it) was to paint Diana as really pushing herself ahead of the other two and Flo sort of putting her foot down on a national tv show. so if she really wanted to take this position on Diana, then she should have had her story straight and buttoned up.

  41. #41
    Please I’ve heard Diana quote stories that weren’t quite accurate. I’ve heard all of them do it and in more than one occasion.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yeah but we're not talking about Mary mentioning this offhand at some cocktail party. she's writing her autobiography and was also positioning this whole book as a rather harsh DR expose. She should have taken the effort to diligently research the specific shows and moments she wanted to use. basically the point of this specific incident (at least the way i see it) was to paint Diana as really pushing herself ahead of the other two and Flo sort of putting her foot down on a national tv show. so if she really wanted to take this position on Diana, then she should have had her story straight and buttoned up.

  42. #42
    Without a doubt it's difficult to remember every detail of every show, concert, appearance. That said, I do think Mary has taken more than a few liberties with the Supremes story. There are people that find fault with this when she gets facts incorrect; there are other people that think of her as some eccentric Aunt that tells a few tales.

    I think the biggest one in recent memory is that we've heard in the Supremes early years, they were referred to as the "no hit Supremes". It wasn't that long ago that Mary said that SHE was the one that coined the phrase.

    Back to Chile.

  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    yeah but we're not talking about Mary mentioning this offhand at some cocktail party. she's writing her autobiography and was also positioning this whole book as a rather harsh DR expose. She should have taken the effort to diligently research the specific shows and moments she wanted to use. basically the point of this specific incident (at least the way i see it) was to paint Diana as really pushing herself ahead of the other two and Flo sort of putting her foot down on a national tv show. so if she really wanted to take this position on Diana, then she should have had her story straight and buttoned up.
    Mary has never let the truth get in the way of a good story. I have even heard her contradict herself in the same interview!
    That's Mary for you. She can tell a good story and be highly entertaining, but it is wise to take whatever she says with a pinch of salt, or perhaps even a pillar of salt.

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by blackguy69 View Post
    Please I’ve heard Diana quote stories that weren’t quite accurate. I’ve heard all of them do it and in more than one occasion.
    please reread my post. i'm not referring to sitting on a talk show panel or on stage and misquoting something. in those situations you're working in the moment and need to answer immediately. sure they've misstated a year that a song was released or mixed up a story a bit

    I'm talking about researching and publishing a biography. she and the publishers clearly had a specific type of story in mind

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebrock View Post
    Mary has never let the truth get in the way of a good story. I have even heard her contradict herself in the same interview!
    That's Mary for you. She can tell a good story and be highly entertaining, but it is wise to take whatever she says with a pinch of salt, or perhaps even a pillar of salt.
    even Martha in regards to her book has stated she refused to follow "other show biz bios" and hash all the dirt. of course hers didn't sell like others but she at least has her pride

  46. #46
    Even in her book events that happened were not exactly the way it happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by sup_fan View Post
    please reread my post. i'm not referring to sitting on a talk show panel or on stage and misquoting something. in those situations you're working in the moment and need to answer immediately. sure they've misstated a year that a song was released or mixed up a story a bit

    I'm talking about researching and publishing a biography. she and the publishers clearly had a specific type of story in mind

  47. #47
    Most biographies have incorrect facts in them. It's human nature to state things that are more favourably disposed to their current view of things and that represent them more positively and skip over most of the bad/foolish stuff they may have done.

    If Diana had ever released a proper memoirs I'm sure there would be plenty of people disputing the 'facts' within.

    I'm certain if Mary was releasing a book in 2020 as opposed to the mid-80s and had access to some of these YT clips or fan lists of recording/performance dates etc available now (and had an editor that could fact-check certain things) it would be much more accurate. Then again, you have HDH releasing books these days and people can still dispute some of the 'facts' written in them.

    PS - the Chile show in the clip was nowhere near the trainwreck I was expecting. Pretty decent show really.
    Last edited by Levi Stubbs Tears; 10-23-2020 at 03:34 PM.

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by floyjoy678 View Post
    To be fair The Supremes were on several TV shows during that period when Flo came back that we still haven't seen. I know one being the Mike Douglas Show. Its possible it may have been one of those other appearances they made where Flo monopolized the whole interview and Mary just remembered wrong thinking it was Johnny Carson.
    itís possible. However, Mary distinctly says Flos does this after Diana talks about the replacements which was on this show online. Itís still possible that mary was incorrect. Itís also possible she just made it up. Thatís what I believe because she was building up the Florence Ballard story Way out of proportion for what it really was.

  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Levi Stubbs Tears View Post
    Most biographies have incorrect facts in them. It's human nature to state things that are more favourably disposed to their current view of things and that represent them more positively and skip over most of the bad/foolish stuff they may have done.

    If Diana had ever released a proper memoirs I'm sure there would be plenty of people disputing the 'facts' within.

    I'm certain if Mary was releasing a book in 2020 as opposed to the mid-80s and had access to some of these YT clips or fan lists of recording/performance dates etc available now (and had an editor that could fact-check certain things) it would be much more accurate. Then again, you have HDH releasing books these days and people can still dispute some of the 'facts' written in them.

    PS - the Chile show in the clip was nowhere near the trainwreck I was expecting. Pretty decent show really.
    All very true. Diana discussing her departure from the Supremes on the Russel Harty show highlights just how easily Motown history can be become reinvented.

  50. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac View Post
    it’s possible. However, Mary distinctly says Flos does this after Diana talks about the replacements which was on this show online. It’s still possible that mary was incorrect. It’s also possible she just made it up. That’s what I believe because she was building up the Florence Ballard story Way out of proportion for what it really was.
    from what we've read in the various books and from various interviews and sources of people that were there, both M and D really did try to help florence. these were young 21 and 22 year old girls, trying to solve mountainous problems. they were dealing with huge successes and stresses with their work, instantly thrust into a totally new world, and dealing with some very challenging personnel problems. both girls tried their best but it was simply too much

    it seems that Diana might have been the first to say "ok i've tried to help but now it's just getting to the point where we might lose it all. enough is enough."

    Mary also got to that point. she agreed with Berry and Diana that enough was enough. Like Diana, mary wanted to move forward with her career and flo was a barrier to that. So as painful as it was, both Mary and Diana agreed Flo's time to depart had come

    Flo's tragic death really altered the story. and IMO it gave Flo a bit of a martyr aura. Flo was a good singer but not the best singer to ever wax a record. Flo was a good entertainer but she had some serious personal demons that prevented her from making good on that. Flo made a lot of poor decisions. obviously not everything is her fault but she was most definitely an active participant in how her life turned out

    in order to push her own story, mary has heavily aligned herself with this tragic martyr. the spin of her stories most definitely does this. while i agree part of this is helping to keep flo's and the supremes' memory alive, she made the decision that the best way to do this was to paint Diana as the villain. and that sold well

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