Did they ever test record Cindy for background?

[sup_fan]

again i think it's intricately tied into the whole implosion of the Supremes. the weight was 1 issue among many. and us fans love to chat away on so many different topics in regard to the group.

i don't recall the other singers at Motown that had a falling out having quite the drama that the Flo situation did. Ruffin would be a close runner, Paul williams too.

Gladys Horton wasn't given a solo deal because 1) she wanted to leave to raise her special needs child and 2) no one cared about the marvelettes

Martha and Wanda both [[possibly) had some opportunities for solo work but 1) they would always be in the dark shadows of Diana and 2) they had some very serious drug issues and personal problems.

David and Dennis received solo deals but basically went nowhere. David lucked out with a few hits. Eddie was reasonably successful but he was long since cast as a "motown outside" given his outspokeness. he also didn't have the solo following that Stevie and marvin had. nor had he displayed or fought for the artistic freedom of writing and producing

and you're absolutely right. Motown was hideously chauvinistic. but not so sure that was especially unique to motown. women in all industries and across american society at the time were widely discredited. definitely watch Mrs America on Netflix! [[or was it Amazon Prime??) fascinating show

[Ollie9]

Not today Satan! lolol

just had to say that hehehe

although we're getting into the weeds on it, i don't think we're simply addressing the size of a woman. If that were the case, we'd also chat about Cindy's yo-yo'ing weight.

The issue here, at least as how i see it, is the broader discussion of Flo's overall decline and unraveling. Some fans try to say Gordy simply fired Flo cuz she was fat. That doesn't seem to really be the issue actually. her general unhappiness seems to have manifested itself in a variety of ways - there were reports about how moody she was and how everyone around never really knew if today would be a good day or bad day, her skipping rehearsals, recordings, appearances, etc, the drinking, the weight gain, etc. So as i see it, we're discussing one element of a complex and intricate situation that did actually have massive implications on the group - the eventual departure of a founding member.

Well put sup. Flo’s weight issues remain relevant to the telling of her story.

[TYK1986]

How or why is it that no one else's weight gets discussed on SD? I've NEVER seen or read a discussion on any male singer's weight or any other female's weight, only Florence's. Florence left the Supreme's in the summer of 1967. But Gladys Horton also left the Marvelette's in '67 as did Betty Kelly from the Vandellas in the summer of '67. No one ever mentions their departure or why they left or why none of the female lead singers besides Diana Ross were offered solo contracts after leaving their groups: not Cal Gil, not Martha Reeves, not Gladys Horton, not Wanda Rogers. Yet David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Paul Williams, Dennis Edwards were all given contracts. Was it sexism? Now that's a topic worthy of discussion.

I would like to hear from Betty herself why she left in '67. Same with Rosalind the following year. The Vandellas are shrouded in mystery to me. We had a little conversation earlier in this or another thread. A lot of the Vandellas information seems mixed up. Even how the name Vandellas came about. We have Martha's story and Rosalind/Anette's story. I came to my own conclusion and think Martha came up with the name. She told Berry and then they decided to pretend giving the others the chance to come up with a name. Then Berry came in and the girls didn't come up with anything and then, as Rosalind and Annette said in an interview, Berry said you'll be the Vandellas. It was always going to be the Vandellas. Thats what I think.

[SatansBlues]

Well put sup. Flo’s weight issues remain relevant to the telling of her story.

How exactly is Florence's weight relevant? Was David Ruffin's weight relevant when he was fired from the Temptations? No. How much did Marvin Gaye weight again?

[SatansBlues]

I would like to hear from Betty herself why she left in '67. Same with Rosalind the following year. The Vandellas are shrouded in mystery to me. We had a little conversation earlier in this or another thread. A lot of the Vandellas information seems mixed up. Even how the name Vandellas came about. We have Martha's story and Rosalind/Anette's story. I came to my own conclusion and think Martha came up with the name. She told Berry and then they decided to pretend giving the others the chance to come up with a name. Then Berry came in and the girls didn't come up with anything and then, as Rosalind and Annette said in an interview, Berry said you'll be the Vandellas. It was always going to be the Vandellas. Thats what I think.

I agree. I would love to hear more details about why both Rosalind and Betty were both unceremoniously dumped by Martha. There's an untold story there. What was their financial payout? Did I just read last week that Rosalind sued Motown after she was fired? Did she get a full accounting of the groups earnings? Is this when Martha started asking questions of Motown about where all the group's money was going?

[floyjoy678]

I agree. I would love to hear more details about why both Rosalind and Betty were both unceremoniously dumped by Martha. There's an untold story there. What was their financial payout? Did I just read last week that Rosalind sued Motown after she was fired? Did she get a full accounting of the groups earnings? Is this when Martha started asking questions of Motown about where all the group's money was going?

Rosalind sued Martha. This happened right after Martha was hospitalized and had become paranoid. She felt like she couldn't trust Rosalind and thought she was out to get her. Betty was fired because she was getting fed up with Martha's issues and they started fighting. I think Betty started showing up at their shows after being fired and would heckle Martha from the audience.

[floyjoy678]

These are all Martha's account though. I never seen any quotes or heard directly from Rosalind or Betty about their firings.

[TYK1986]

I think there was also a story about Rosalind's then current boyfriend. Not sure but will have to find it so don't take my word for it. I find it funny how we almost got the exact details up till Florence dismissal but when it comes to the Vandellas not. They more or less just disappeared and were replaced. Did people even realize? Sure they must have even if they didn't know their names.

[BobbyC]

Maybe sexism had some to do with with the way female artists were treated but I'll say this: I know all the original Temptations' names, all the Supremes' names, but after that, I know mostly just the lead singers names of the other major Motown acts. Why is that? I am not entirely sure. Anyway, Florence Ballard was never fat. Anybody would look over-weight next to Diana Ross in those days. Today DR thinks she was probably anorexic, but I think it was just stress. DR didn't know how to relax without fearing she'd lose her position in show biz.All that being said, I recall a lot of people complaining that David Ruffin looked "skeletal." By then his drug problem was well known and I think people looked at his emaciated state and thought mmmm hmmmm, told you so!

[TheMotownManiac]

How or why is it that no one else's weight gets discussed on SD? I've NEVER seen or read a discussion on any male singer's weight or any other female's weight, only Florence's. Florence left the Supreme's in the summer of 1967. But Gladys Horton also left the Marvelette's in '67 as did Betty Kelly from the Vandellas in the summer of '67. No one ever mentions their departure or why they left or why none of the female lead singers besides Diana Ross were offered solo contracts after leaving their groups: not Cal Gil, not Martha Reeves, not Gladys Horton, not Wanda Rogers. Yet David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Paul Williams, Dennis Edwards were all given contracts. Was it sexism? Now that's a topic worthy of discussion.

A) I recall more than one or at least one very lengthy thread about Betty Kelly leaving the Vandellas. In general the reason things aren’t discussed is because no one cares to discuss them.

B) Martha Reeves most certainly was going to be a solo act at Motown until Richard Perry bought out her contract. She had recorded a few tracks intended for solo release.

‘Motown didn’t offer Cal Gil, Wanda Rogers and Gladys Horton solo contracts probably for the same reason no one else in the record industry offered them contracts: they didn’t see any potential profits in these women. The record business is the same as any other business: they will do anything to make a buck and they will go to great lengths not to lose a buck. If somebody thought that they could make money on Cal Gille they certainly would have snapped her app and got behind her and tried to make a go of it. There’s nothing wrong with her, But she’s quite unremarkable. I would guess that there were at least 1000 other women her age in the United States in 1967 who were much better suited for a solo contract that didn’t get solo contracts.

As previously stated, Florences weight is discussed frequently because it was a thorn in the side of the powers that be at Motown. Mary said in her book that sometimes they couldn’t wear a certain outfit because flo couldn’t fit into hers.

Yes, I certainly do believe she looked too heavy on Ed Sullivan. At that rate, in another year, it’s likely to assume she would be obese. She might not have realized all the calories in alcohol, but there’s no denying that she was getting bigger and bigger. You can see her getting bigger from Rogers and Hart, to Andy Williams to Ed Sullivan. That doesn’t make it a hanging offense in my opinion, but it would spoil the look of the group if it remained unchecked. Cindy certainly got too fat, and looked matronly. I’m so glad she slimmed up for the new Supremes on Ed Sullivan.

[Ollie9]

How exactly is Florence's weight relevant? Was David Ruffin's weight relevant when he was fired from the Temptations? No. How much did Marvin Gaye weight again?

The Supremes image was to a large extent built on glamour. The gender correctness of that is another discussion entirely. The manifestation of Flo’s weight problems were most likely linked with her general dissatisfaction about Gordy and what was happening within the group. That is why it is so often mentioned when discussing her downfall.

[TYK1986]

I will have to find them threads about Betty on the forum. It was one of the reasons why I wanted to get Martha's book but it seems her version of events seem to be too one sided. Same as to why Rosalind left and how Lois stepped in. I think Martha can be a very difficult person to be with in a group. Don't say she's a bad person but just difficult to work with. Also as to why Sandra was chosen to replace Rosalind. Am just one of them people who do care to discuss

[sup_fan]

A) I recall more than one or at least one very lengthy thread about Betty Kelly leaving the Vandellas. In general the reason things aren’t discussed is because no one cares to discuss them.

B) Martha Reeves most certainly was going to be a solo act at Motown until Richard Perry bought out her contract. She had recorded a few tracks intended for solo release.

‘Motown didn’t offer Cal Gil, Wanda Rogers and Gladys Horton solo contracts probably for the same reason no one else in the record industry offered them contracts: they didn’t see any potential profits in these women. The record business is the same as any other business: they will do anything to make a buck and they will go to great lengths not to lose a buck. If somebody thought that they could make money on Cal Gille they certainly would have snapped her app and got behind her and tried to make a go of it. There’s nothing wrong with her, But she’s quite unremarkable. I would guess that there were at least 1000 other women her age in the United States in 1967 who were much better suited for a solo contract that didn’t get solo contracts.

As previously stated, Florences weight is discussed frequently because it was a thorn in the side of the powers that be at Motown. Mary said in her book that sometimes they couldn’t wear a certain outfit because flo couldn’t fit into hers.

Yes, I certainly do believe she looked too heavy on Ed Sullivan. At that rate, in another year, it’s likely to assume she would be obese. She might not have realized all the calories in alcohol, but there’s no denying that she was getting bigger and bigger. You can see her getting bigger from Rogers and Hart, to Andy Williams to Ed Sullivan. That doesn’t make it a hanging offense in my opinion, but it would spoil the look of the group if it remained unchecked. Cindy certainly got too fat, and looked matronly. I’m so glad she slimmed up for the new Supremes on Ed Sullivan.

excellent post Maniac. yeah all of the sups had weight fluctuations, as is normal. every human does. But the group was also selling a very specific image and working towards that. you mention R&H and that's a great example. flo looked shapely and womanly there. very curvaceous but not fat. on the other hand, Diana looked like a refugee, she was that emaciated. there are times when diana turns during their opening segment in the red gowns and she's at an angle to the camera. makes her look sickly thin

Cindy also had ups and downs. i think Cindy looked extremely heavy during GIT, especially in the pink feather chevron gowns. but then she had looked super curvy and wonderful in other appearances.

In some interviews mary talked about the issues of weight gain. we might be making it sound a bit silly and catty here but think of the reality of it with the gowns. there was NO forgiveness in those outfits. they were perfectly fitted to whatever size you were when the outfit was made. a few pounds of Christmas fat could mean that several sets of gowns had to be returned to the designer for alterations. The girls would travel with 6 or so sets of outfits, different styles and outfits. and outfits were also being sent for repairs, rebeading, cleaning, etc. And once they were altered to be larger, if the girl lost weight they'd have be altered back down.

this could quickly add up to hundreds of dollars of expense. so it really isn't a trivial matter

[CoolKatz]

Imo, the issues were not with Flo's weight at all, as she was an average size for a healthy black woman with her height. The belief that in order for a black female artist to crossover they had to be Twiggy thin is a myth. There were many other curvaceous female entertainers out there Mary Wells, Aretha, Etta, Micki Harris of the Shirelles, Tammi Terrell, Wanda Rogers the list goes on and on. Her issues were conflicts with Gordy and her fluctuating weight was used as a weapon. Had she been male it would not have gone as far as it did. I will say again that the Supremes and Flo's story are much more intricate than the surface details that have been fed to the public over the years. At this stage it's all water under the bridge

[sup_fan]

Imo, the issues were not with Flo's weight at all, as she was an average size for a healthy black woman with her height. The belief that in order for a black female artist to crossover they had to be Twiggy thin is a myth. There were many other curvaceous female entertainers out there Mary Wells, Aretha, Etta, Micki Harris of the Shirelles, Tammi Terrell, Wanda Rogers the list goes on and on. Her issues were conflicts with Gordy and her fluctuating weight was used as a weapon. Had she been male it would not have gone as far as it did. I will say again that the Supremes and Flo's story are much more intricate than the surface details that have been fed to the public over the years. At this stage it's all water under the bridge

agreed. no supreme was ever fired for being fat. as we've stated, there are times when Cindy was heavier, Jean, Mary - probably nearly all of them except Diana at some point

if there hadn't been all the other issues at the time, the issues of Flo's weight would have probably simply been something where weight fluctuates a bit and you diet and correct it. no problem, no scandal

[marybrewster]

Martha definitely likes to be the boss of "her" Vandellas. Whether that's right or wrong, that's what it is. I suppose over time it was difficult to get them to "know their place", especially with Roz who started with Martha, so it was easier to replace than have internal conflict. I think that's why Martha has said to the effect that Sandy and Lois were her favorite Vandellas; Martha had them under her thumb.

[sup_fan]

Martha definitely likes to be the boss of "her" Vandellas. Whether that's right or wrong, that's what it is. I suppose over time it was difficult to get them to "know their place", especially with Roz who started with Martha, so it was easier to replace than have internal conflict. I think that's why Martha has said to the effect that Sandy and Lois were her favorite Vandellas; Martha had them under her thumb.

I don't know much about the details of the internal issues with MRATV other than what was in her book. with the supremes you sort of had the idea of a group all working together towards common goals [[although that would sometimes not be the case, like in much of the DRATS years). But with MRATV, the Vs were really just employees. like the band. And sounds like Martha had some very dark periods in the later 60s with the baby, drugs, the breakdown. i can imagine that the situation was rather volatile

[blackguy69]

Problem is when Roz and Nette spoke on the happenings they gave a different story. They said they were signed to Motown not just background to Martha.

I don't know much about the details of the internal issues with MRATV other than what was in her book. with the supremes you sort of had the idea of a group all working together towards common goals [[although that would sometimes not be the case, like in much of the DRATS years). But with MRATV, the Vs were really just employees. like the band. And sounds like Martha had some very dark periods in the later 60s with the baby, drugs, the breakdown. i can imagine that the situation was rather volatile

[marybrewster]

I don't know how Roz and Nettie couldn't have been signed to Motown. God bless her, but Martha likes to tell some tales. No way BG would have let "a secretary" call the shots in his business.

[TYK1986]

I think Rosalind, Anette and Betty were all signed to Motown. Betty was with the Velvelettes. Some of the stories they tell never make any sense and they contradict each other. As much as I like Martha I do think that she likes to tell the stories in her own favour.

[franjoy56]

There was definite conflict in t marvelettes between Wanda and gladys especially when t lead shifted between gladys t Wanda in 65 and Wanda head swelled t t irritation of both gladys and Catherine and it got worse when gladys left.

[TYK1986]

Yes Wanda got worse and Gladys and Catherine were far more group orientated. I read the book a few years ago but forgot a lot. Think it's time to re-read the book. I wonder if Gladys would have stayed longer, despite her giving birth, if Gladys had more input and lead singles. After too many fish it was more or less all Wanda. And Wanda became more problematic.

[grangertim]

Not putting Cindy down at all, but was she really that nice or innocent? I know it may be almost criminal to ask this. At some point neither Flo, Diana, Patti, or Nona thought she was that nice.

"I remember Cindy as a nice, sweet girl, always willing to please" - Diana Ross, Secrets of a Sparrow

[RanRan79]

For me, the truth regarding Martha and the Vandellas is in when the Vandellas sued for back royalties, they went after Motown, not Martha. Hired session singers- which is basically what Martha's "story" of these hired Vandellas is- don't receive royalties, as far as I know. And if the hiring contract was between Martha and the ladies, then any money owed would come from Martha, not Motown, even if the money Martha was owed came from Motown. The Vandellas sued Motown and won, if I'm not mistaken.

[sup_fan]

For me, the truth regarding Martha and the Vandellas is in when the Vandellas sued for back royalties, they went after Motown, not Martha. Hired session singers- which is basically what Martha's "story" of these hired Vandellas is- don't receive royalties, as far as I know. And if the hiring contract was between Martha and the ladies, then any money owed would come from Martha, not Motown, even if the money Martha was owed came from Motown. The Vandellas sued Motown and won, if I'm not mistaken.

good point. were Sandy and Lois receiving royalties too?

my initial point was more about group decisions and direction. it's my understanding that the Vs were not particularly involved in this. realize that frankly none of the motown women really were involved in this, if the truth were told. but during the DMF years, M and F certainly had more voice in what they would wear, sing, do, etc. i don't know that the Vs had this role

[RanRan79]

good point. were Sandy and Lois receiving royalties too?

my initial point was more about group decisions and direction. it's my understanding that the Vs were not particularly involved in this. realize that frankly none of the motown women really were involved in this, if the truth were told. but during the DMF years, M and F certainly had more voice in what they would wear, sing, do, etc. i don't know that the Vs had this role

Oh yeah, I get that the Vandellas weren't structured like the Supremes. Martha was always the queen of that crew, at least from the point that "I'll Have To Let Him Go" was released. I just think her tale of basically being a solo artist with a backup group she hired is pretty much bullshit. Did she call Roz and Annette in for the first session, as the story goes? Probably. They had already sung together as the Del Phis, so why wouldn't she? But did they sign contracts to Martha or Motown? I'm betting Motown.

Regarding Sandy and Lois, I think this might be where Martha may have hired them herself. But even that seems a little strange because Motown packaged them up as official entity on the albums. Would Motown have done this if they weren't officially signed to Motown? I don't know. Of course, if it's true that Jean was salaried and not receiving royalties from her initial hits with the Supremes, this may have been the case with Lois and Sandy also.

[blackguy69]

I think in the case of Lois she was the only one that came from outside Motown so her agreement was different than Roz’s. Sandra was already at motown when she joined so I’m not sure what her agreement was. I’m guessing since both of them did record as the vandellas there had to been some contract with the label.

Oh yeah, I get that the Vandellas weren't structured like the Supremes. Martha was always the queen of that crew, at least from the point that "I'll Have To Let Him Go" was released. I just think her tale of basically being a solo artist with a backup group she hired is pretty much bullshit. Did she call Roz and Annette in for the first session, as the story goes? Probably. They had already sung together as the Del Phis, so why wouldn't she? But did they sign contracts to Martha or Motown? I'm betting Motown.

Regarding Sandy and Lois, I think this might be where Martha may have hired them herself. But even that seems a little strange because Motown packaged them up as official entity on the albums. Would Motown have done this if they weren't officially signed to Motown? I don't know. Of course, if it's true that Jean was salaried and not receiving royalties from her initial hits with the Supremes, this may have been the case with Lois and Sandy also.

[RanRan79]

I think in the case of Lois she was the only one that came from outside Motown so her agreement was different than Roz’s. Sandra was already at motown when she joined so I’m not sure what her agreement was. I’m guessing since both of them did record as the vandellas there had to been some contract with the label.

Yeah, Sandra probably had an official agreement since she had already been a Motown recording artist. It really does make sense that any woman singing with Martha as official Vandellas during Martha's time at Motown, said women would be official Motown recording artists. Is there ever a time when someone officially recorded for Motown without any agreement? Seems like that could get real complicated on either the singer or label's behalf.